It should be no secret to the more observant amongst you that the current debacle surrounding Manhunt 2 has hit a nerve with myself and Jim. It's not that we feel particularly protective of the game itself, or of Rockstar as a developer. What we have a serious issue with is the principle at stake here. Like many of you, we adamantly feel that such an action against any piece of media is an action against civil liberty and freedom of choice, and with your help, we want to try use our position as games journalists to do something about it. I've included a synopsis of the situation below for clarification, but if you already feel clued up enough on all the issues present here, feel free to hit the jump.
Despite supposedly having a "games ratings system in the UK that is effective", a piece of entertainment designed purely for the adult market, and never pretending to be anything but, has been effectively banned, thus deeming the adult British gaming public unfit to handle it. The BBFC has stated that releasing the game "would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors" and that even if released only to adults, the title would be "unacceptable to the public". The game's "bleakness and callousness of tone" was cited as part of the reason.
While of course I'd love to be able to tell you how accurate that appraisal is, obviously I can't, as I'm not being trusted as an adult to engage my critical faculties and make up my own mind about what I like and don't like. Apparently the BBFC already knows what would be "unacceptable" to me. And all of this from an organisation which regularly passes bleak and callous movies with few or no cuts, and accepted in one of its own reports that violent games do not have a negative effect on the player. So what's the problem?
Well every new medium and cultural movement has teething troubles, that's something that we've seen countless times. From Elvis, to hippies, to home video, to games, the new has always been treated with suspicion and judged more harshly that pre-existing media until it becomes naturalized within the culture of the time, and it seems that that's exactly what what's happening here. While vacuous "torture porn" like the Saw series and Hostel is consistently released with no problems, despite offering merely tenous narratives to justify its content, gaming gets hammered by a hysterical and sensationalized press and is forced to suffer all manner of ridiculous accusations and slurs. Of course violent games should be rated accordingly, and those ratings should be enforced, but a ban is an infringement on liberty which other media are unlikely to have suffered. And if this course of action becomes a precedent, as a society we're on a very slippery slope indeed. But are we just going to sit around and complain to ourselves? No we are not.
So to this end, we've decided that we want to act, and we want you guys to help us. A large part of the problem as we see it is that the pro-gaming side of the argument rarely ever gets voiced adequately within the mainstream press and media. Of course, educated gaming publications rail against situations like this all the time, but being specialised gaming publications, we're unfortuantely, by and large, preaching to the converted. Despite a brilliant sense of cameraderie within the gaming community, we are rarely seen as a unified voice during periods such as this, and therin lies our problem in getting these issues explored fully and openly.
So we want to find a way of pulling everyone together in order to make our perspective known. Currently the idea is very much in the early planning stages, but we've already been happily stunned by the level of support you've given us. Ideally what we want to create is some sort of organised campaign in order make our concerns known once and for all, which all being well, we hope to culminate in some manner of large scale event in order to bring everyone together under a shared goal. Exactly what this will be, we are as yet undecided, but we know we want it to be big, fun and attention-grabbing, but with a serious message at its core. After much discussion with the community, we've decided to call the enterprise "Gamers For Gaming". We feel this sums up the idea behindthe campaign perfectly, evoking the simple enjoyment of gaming we all want, without any unnecessary complications.
There's an incredible amount of good in games and the gaming community. They're not only fun, but at their best can be stimulating, thought provoking, and dare I say it, amazing pieces of interactive art. They bring people together, incite debate on all manner of topics, bring about friendships, and forge communities. I feel I'm right in stating that everyone involved in this site, from community to staff, has felt the many positive effects of gaming at various points in their lives, but has also been unfortunately aware of the negativity to which the medium can be unfairly subjected.
Well we think it's gone on for too long. Of course new forms of entertainment and art are initially questioned. We can understand that. But gaming has been around long enough for that attitude to be unnecessary now. Millions upon millions of men, women and children play together globally these days, and its about time we moved beyond outdated and overly cautious perceptions of a medium which has brought so much good into the world. It's about time gaming was truly seen on an equal footing with the rest of the entertainment industry. Things have come on leaps and bounds over the last few years, and gaming really is in the best position it's ever been in as a mass-media phenomenon, with many of us believing that the teething-troubles were over until recently. Apparently that's not quite the case though, as while bans of boundary-pushing material are happening, there's still work to be done in making our pastime a fully matured and legitimized entertainment medium.
So we want your help and suggestions in making something happen. As I've previously said, the support we've had from you has already been overwhelming, and it's things like this that make you the incredible community you are. We say it a lot, but it's absolutely true. You guys are fantastic. We want your ideas, we want your suggestions, and we want all of you involved. We feel it's time to give something back to the medium that we've all gained so much from, and we know you lot are exactly the sort of people to help in doing that. Like I said, at the moment we're at a very early stage, but from this point on, Jim and I will be contacting as many people as we can in all areas of the industry to see if this thing has got legs, and we're going to give it our every effort to make it happen. Start getting in touch with us as soon as you can. We'd love to hear from every one of you.
And in the meantime, do what you can on your own. It's tricky, but there are things you can do. The BBFC is a non-governmental body, but feel free to contact your MPs with your feelings on this matter. You can find a full list of them here. These things get raised to the government from a negative perspective, so why not ours? ELSPA also exists as a guardian of the British games industry, so make sure they know you're unhappy with their inaction. Arm yourself with the information you need and hit them with well-considered, non-inflammatory expressions of your feelings, and hopefully they might pay attention. And while it's a long-shot, the same might go for the BBFC themselves. It's definitely worth a trip to their site regardless, if only to read up on their regulations, ruling, and their previous reports on gaming, particularly the one I cited above, which can be found here.
Let's get on this now, and let's get some serious momentum happening. Apathy and acceptance of these things is the only way they can continue, but conversely, making a stand and making your voice heard can and does make all the difference. Let's make that difference.
Ladies and gentlemen - THIS. IS. GAMING!
Let the very hard work begin. Thank you ALL for your early support. We promise we will not let you down.
i know this is a separate matter, but shouldn't we also include contact to sony and nintendo helping them understand that bringing an AO Title to their console won't be the end of the world.
or is that in phase two?
David/Jim -- You guys rock. Keep up the good work, and fight the good fight. We'll supply the Dtoid love for you, in times of trouble. Keep yo' eyes on the prize.
Fuck Manhunt 2, but I'm with you guys all the way on this!
this is an inspirational article man. I think I might cry. I think Nintnendo should leap at the chance to have an AO title in thier roster. Time and time again Ninty has been the portrayed as the "kiddie" console. Nintendo if your are ready this, GROW A PAIR ALREADY!
Here I am, support you like a ... hurri ... ca ...
Sorry, you get the idea.
My heroes!
Guys, tomorrow, I'm doing several shots in your name. Hows goldschalger sound to you?
Someone needs to Digg this shit. Spread the word!
Hey that suave mother fucker Bryan Coffee came up with that name.
I bet he has a huge wang.
I doubt many are going to take an attempted cultural movement centered on a website with an attitude as obnoxious and unserious as this one seriously.
+1
@ dprim3:
Don't be a dprime.
SuMizzle: Don't worry about it. I'm glad to have your support. I'm glad for the support of everyone serious about games, btw. We here at Dtoid all are. Any gamers worth his salt should be able to get behind this, while anybody who sneers and looks down on it should be ashamed of themselves.
I live in the US but I will be happy to help in anyway I can!
online petition
Hey, you don't know until you try!
This is a long shot, but I'm backing you guys anyway i can.
This doesn't just affect the UK, guys. If they get away with banning this, no matter where it happens, it then becomes acceptible for them to violate people's rights in that way. Next thing you know, anything that doesn't please them gets banned and freedom of expression/choise/speech all go out the window, and like David said, slippery slope.
@dprim3 (and any nay-sayers of Dtoid and this movement, for that matter)
As a gamer, can you say that you have no bias opinions on any matters, specifically those relating to video games? Didn't think so. One of the thing so refreshing about DToid is that the journalists actually are people. They have a right to express their opinions, and they do so wonderfully. Everyone in the world forms their own, personal opinions on every issue they have ever been exposed to. Trying to say that someone will never be taken seriously for simply showing that they are a living, breathing human like the rest of us is pretty snide and ridiculous.
@Jim and David
You can't see me, but I'm standing and applauding right now. Er... well, I was before I started typing. Either way, you guys rock my frickin' socks off. I am so proud to be part of this community (only actually registered recently, but been reading for a long time), especially when we have representatives such as you two who truly want to make sure that our entertainment industry does not get the proverbial shaft.
I will continue to support you and the G4G movement in any way that I can. Keep up the good work, and I look forward to our victory, however long-off if may be.
Also American, but glad this is happening.
An organized pro-gamer interest group has been a long time coming.
This is also not just about Manhunt 2, I need to reiterate that constantly. This is about the fair and just treatment of videogames and giving gamers their voices. We're going to get attention for the other side of the debate, the oft-ignored side. We don't know if it's too late for Manhunt or not, but this campaign has been needed for ten years, and will go on for twice as long if it has to.
American here, Just gotta say you guys are doing the lords work. Anything I can do here in the states I'd be happy to do.
@SuMizzle: Indeed, that is the truly unnerving thing about all of this. We are being told that, regardless of our personal wishes and abilities to regulate what we and our spouses/children view/participate in, we will never have that opportunity. Be it the BBFC in the UK banning the game, or the ESRB giving Manhunt 2 the AO label that Sony and Nintendo refuse to support, our personal freedoms are being systematically destroyed.
Count me in Jim
ahh the day comes i have to hold hands with Jim Sterling. Thank you for doing what you can and you have my support in all the efforts. I am from america so I can not do much to help I guess. As an american where should i point letters to based on sony not allowing AO games on their consoles?
Once again Good work Jim. No room for fanboyism here.. this affects us all as adult gamers. Same to you Sir David. Thanks!
Bravo. I am the sword of Jim Sterling, whenever you need it.
I'm sure this doesn't need to be addressed, as I'm sure our fine DToid fellas are already all over it... but I figured I'd point out that our favorite lawyer has made his thoughts known about this.
Via Kotaku
Adonis: Yeah, we know of Jack 'googles his name daily' Thompson weighing in. I may address him in time.
Thanks for the support for us so far, guys. I think we can all pull together on this one, regardless of what side of the console war we're on, what conflicts we might have. That's just somethin' special, know what I mean?
You guys should try to get some developers and publishers on board with this too, if you can. I doubt you'll have much trouble doing so, though, if this thing really takes off.
Nicely worded blog, thanks guys. As bad as this situation is, count yourselves lucky that you don't live in Australia. In the past 10 years, no less than 48 games have been banned in this country, with 17 bans in the past 5 years alone. We dont even have an adult rating for games at all, any game with content more than a 15-years-or-older rating is banned (manhunt2 is almost certainly going to banned in the next few days). So count me in, I despise this sort of censorship and long for the day that videogames are understood to be moving polygons on a screen and nothing that will destroy the fabric of our societies.
I think a community movement which lobbies your local MP's, and becomes visible in the media with articulate arguments will ultimately be successful. Hang in there!!
As for Jack Thompson weighing in... what the hell took him so freaking long? I'd have figured he'd have been on this like a hobo on a ham sandwich from day 1. Is he getting soft in his increasingly advanced state of decay or something?
@ImOK: No kidding. Not to mention his complete and utter childish response to this whole situation. How does he expect to sway the minds of gamers of any age when he refers to us all as 'kiddies?'
Oh, and if we can get some bigger names (not that DToid isn't big!) in with us, then I think we have a much better chance of this succeeding. Can you DToid boys pull any strings to get us some connections within the industry to support our cause?
For the USA, I believe if we can convince at least one major retail outlet to sell the game, then we've gotten our point across. Seriously, it can be a "special order" type of deal where the buyer will have to reserve the game in advanced first. But to outright not even Sell an AO rated game? The ESRB did its job buy giving the game that rating, but it is the stores who are banning it by not choosing to sell it.
Im ok:
You thought we WEREN'T going to get developers on board? The word is going out, mark my words, and I will personally see to it that we have good news on that front. I will do what's needed to get the right people on board.
And by "do what's needed"....
Yeah ... even THAT.
This is officially going to be awesome. Calling it now.
Count me in the movement..this is ridiculous.
Jim and David, you already know full well where I stand on this, but I'm going to state it again:
Gamers and games are often misunderstood. It is so easy for someone to look in on people who play violent games for pleasure and fear the fabricated repercussions of its connotation. How could they possibly be good in any way?
On the other hand, I look at some of the things that non-gamers do that I may think are bad for society and not understand their actions, either. I don't really have to, though. Art and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. Just because I don't see it as art doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't either.
I don't like torture-porns, but I have a lot of friends that do. I'm not going to make an effort to stop torture-porns just because I don't get the same enjoyment out of them as other people, or because I'm afraid someone may mimic those events. If anything is going to affect our actions, it will be other people, not a vehicle for entertainment, no matter how much I may or may not care for it.
Gamers For Gaming is truly a genius name as it simply suggests that it is the gamers who should be deciding what games they play. It's important to support the ESRB and get the word out to people about it.
In the same respect, it's not right for the government to tap our phone calls and invade our privacy for the sake of public protection. While it may prevent some very unfortunate situations, it also has the opposite effect and creates certain unfortunate situations; ie a reduction in our ability to make our own decisions and enjoy freedom. Our right should end where another mans nose begins, but we shouldn't attack someone just because they may get a little too close to said nose. And what happens when we've adjusted to that? What's the next step the government takes? Should we abandon democracy? Is it better to lead a cookie cutter life than it is to lead a life full of cookies? Do we extinguish other religions because they conflict with our own? Should we? What if your religion is the one that is getting extinguished?
It may be scary to see someone getting enjoyment out of things that you'll never understand, but no one should let ignorance convert into fear. The best way to avoid fear is through education. If the possibilities of gaming really scare you, you should learn more about it. I believe that the person who should make the final decision is the person who knows the most about it.
Let the gamers decide.
Gamers For Gaming. I'm in.
Only other thing that I'd mention is that I'd be a bit leery of using the ESRB AO rating thing in the logo up there (I doubt that's in any way official or anything, of course, but still).
The issue isn't that the game got an AO rating in and of itself. It's that Nintendo/Sony/retailers/Jack Thompson/fucktards are treating it as a de facto ban. I'm perfectly fine with Manhunt 2 getting the AO, except that retarded asshats on the other side seem to think that this is some sort of scarlet letter which justifies banning it, when it's actually just intended to be an indicator of content and a guide to consumers. I don't think the ESRB are the bad guys in this, at least not primarily.
@BuckF1tches
Very well stated.
I guess I can relate what you're saying to music. I'm a musician and currently a university student pursuing a music degree..I really dislike country music.. Country music is about as brainless as my left nut, but there is a population of the people out there who enjoy it and I respect that and I don't insult them because of their choice of music.
On the flip-side..I'm a big jazzer..I love jazz, I love to play it and so do millions of others in the world, but there is a certain population that doesn't understand jazz music, but the don't say DOWN WITH TEH JAZZ!! They respect it.
If people we're all the same this would be a boring ass life. Complete censorship brings in that cookie-cutter mentality..as a society..as a species...we must all not conform to one single like or dislike..we must adapt and further... and I forgot where I was going with this..
But in retrospect, maybe the reason I dislike country is because I don't understand it. Who knows?
Gamers for Gaming FTW! Count me in!
@"drk"
I didn't say ANYTHING about bias or journalistic creativity or what was in your responce; I guess you were grouping me in with people whose comments were more relevant to your responce, but I'm not responcible for those. I said that this site is run obnoxiously, in that the conduct is generally very unserious and doesn't attempt to uphold any sort of professional or intellectual standards. Maybe that's okay and these people have their reasons and think it's fun or something. But considering that, I imagine it's going to be difficult to be taken seriously, as any sort of social or intellectual movement includes a moral evaluations on a standard of judgment, meanwhile the general attitude of dtoid seems to be a hedonistic, nihilistic type of disregard for any sort of rationality or principle. This happens to be oddly mixed in with a practical way of exchanging information about video games, which it does well, but I don't think that's going to help much for this sort of thing.
P.S. No I don't think I have bias in my writing, despite your pretentious "didn't think so." Maybe in subject matter I do, but I wouldn't call that bias, and I believe all the evaluations I offer are at least attempts at objective demonstration.
@other guy who said something about me.
Don't be such a whoever you are. Yeah. How about that.
I don't have any ideas. But whatever is decided.
I'm in.
This is exactly what the world of gaming needs. A unified community from people all over the world to create a revolution against the ignorant and the stupid. It has gone too far and no longer should I see people simply complain about it. We need to act against this childish whining or else the leaders of our countries are going to take this into their own hands--and ruin our experiences and future experiences of something that has inspired millions.
Gatsu, what does gaming have to do with "the ignorant and stupid" that everything doesn't?
You want in?
I would suggest that you:
1)Get the gaming sites together, including blogs and official sites
2)Lobby your local law makers
3)Get air time on TV and radio to get your voice heard that this goes beyond just wanting to play a agame and it goes against our civil librities
4)Bring the message to Nintendo and Sony that we are ok with AO rated games on their systems
5)Tell retailers that if they don't sell the game then we will order it online from somewhere else
Please don't ever say "THIS. IS. GAMING!" ever again. I will rip off your testicles with a pair of pliers.
;)
Also something tells me that thise could be a PR stunt. I mean how many people atually bought the first one?
You know, I really didn't care about Manhunt 2. It could've came out and I never would've cared. I wasn't going to buy it; I wasn't even going to look at the back of the box out of curiosity. But this isn't about Manhunt 2 anymore. As a game developer this news saddens me, it's a huge kick to the balls. I feel like I'm being told that what I do for a living has no real value. I pour years of my life, hard work, into a title some asshole I don't even know, who hasn't been a part of the development team, who knows nothing of the game other than a few hours of random gameplay, can decide the fate of our game. Where does he/she get the nerve to tell us what is good or bad for us. It's about the same as if some stranger walking down the street came up to me and smacked a doughnut out of my hand because it might, it just MIGHT, add an ounce of fat to my ass. You know, because they read a study somewhere.
I've been playing games since I can remember, who is to tell me that a game will damage me or make me become violent. I've beat countless hookers in GTA, ran over god knows how many pedestrians, and ate thousands of mushrooms as Mario, yet in real life it upsets me to see two people fight! I could never go hunting as I don't think I could even shoot an animal. The only damage a game will ever do to me is maybe strain my eyes a little and give me carpal tunnel, and if that's the case maybe WoW should be banned, who knows how much damage that game has caused to my hands! If something is too disturbing to play I simply won't play it, end of story.
I'm glad someone is trying to do something about this; I back you guys up %100
Sign me up. I'll buy bumper stickers, write letters, wear buttons, whatever.
You guys have my undying respect for doing this. Long live Jim, Dave, Destructoid!
I'm all for a rating system, if a game deserves a AO then so be it but it's censorship and banning that gets my goat.
Not sure if manhunt2 is coming to New Zealand but when a game runs into trouble in UK or Oz our rating board tends to follow suit.
I will help if I can and now plan to find out if said game will make it to my shores.
LETS GO TEAM!!!! YAY!!!!
Gimme a "D" !!! Gimme a "TOID" !!!
Throughout it all,I will offer my support 100%.I'm an American chick.Manhunt isn't one of my favorite games,but this is now beyond whether or not if one likes the series.Our very own choice of decision making and values are now being chosen for us.To make this short cause I'll go on,I support you guys all the way,and as a game designer/programmer myself in training, the future isn't looking too bright for inspiring REAL game designers.And something need to be done,or should have been done.
@dprim3
i don't understand where you're going with your post. you say that the site offers no "professional or intellectual standards", and yet you're writing within this very site and community. so what if it doesn't offer standards, that's not this site was made and run for. it's about gaming and the community it has. and when things don't go just and fair within the gaming industry, of course we're going to say something. whether the "standards" are present or not. and how do you know we won't be taken seriously? won't writing these blogs, contacting whoever needs to be contacted and generally making some type of stand show any type of responSibility? we aren't sitting on our asses and saying "eh, they banned a game, big deal." because that's not the point, the point is we're being told and babysat into what is and isn't good for us. even if the game was about killing as many kittens as possible; of course i'm not going to buy that game, but at least i have the choice.
and you're good at making stupid comebacks to others. i might have to get lessons from you sometime.
Personally, I'm not that worried about Manhunt 2. It's not just that I don't like care for the game. The BBFC tried to pull the same crap with Carmageddon, they were challenged in court, and the eventually lost.
All in all, I think that's the advantage of having a governmental ratings board. With a "voluntary" system, you can complain to the ratings board all you want, but in the end, it's not governmental censorship, and a developer or publisher's only recourse is to reject the rating, leaving the game unrated, and thus banned from most major retailers. With a governmental system, if a game is banned, you can challenge the banishment in a court of law, where, depending on your country, it is unlikely to be upheld. I am not a lawyer, but from what I remember, in the United States, the content would be subject to "community standards." For a nationwide release, I don't think anyone would have a problem pointing to the similarities between Manhunt 2 and torture porn, which seems to have no problems living up to "community standards."
I've always been against the ratings system, but last year I saw This Film is Not Yet Rated and it really got me riled up. I came up with a number of reforms I would like to see to the ratings system, the first of which was, in the United States, changing the currently "voluntary" industry-run process into a compulsory government process. These ideas may or may not be appropriate for what Games for Gamers is trying to do, but I figured I would put them out there in case they would be useful:
1. Eliminate the difference between the M and AO ratings. This will have two results: First, parents will, if properly educated that an M-Rated game may contain some all-out Hot Coffee, will be forced to actually review the content of an M-rated game before letting their kids play it. Second, it will eliminate the industry or government's ability to "protect" consenting adults from this content.
I think this is really one of the key messages that a movement like this should focus on. The majority of the market is comprised of adults, and the notion that these games contain content which harms adults is absolutely ludicrous. Although I tend to prefer games which can be enjoyed by most of the family, if I choose to pick up a violent game, that's my business, not anyone else's.
2. My favorite idea, and perhaps the most controversial, is a label for game casing which reads "This game was rated by XXXX under protest by the developer. See reverse side for details. For more information visit RatedUnderProtest.com" I created some early mockups using slightly-crunched white Helvetica on a black background, to emulate the ESRB's style. This would be done to expose the hypocrisy of the current system which calls itself "voluntary." The reverse side of the case would contain a box much like the ESRB content descriptors which point out why the developer protests the rating system, ranging from "Ratings have become a form of marketing," to "Ratings are cost-prohibitive to indie developers," or whatever their beef with the ratings system was. The Web site RatedUnderProtest.com would contain a list of all games which were rated under protest, their descriptors, and an explanation of the descriptors. The site would offer hosting or links to externally hosted letters written by the developers explaining in their own words why they dislike the current ratings system, as well as the names of any of the development team which did not protest the rating, in case the development team is not unanimous in its protest.
Of course, this would require resources, and more importantly, support from inside the industry. As someone with neither the resources to fund such a project, nor the contacts within the industry, I did not pursue it further. I figured it would be much worse for the cause to launch the program and then let the site languish with no support, as it would then seem that the industry is completely happy with the system, which as far as I know, may be the case.
3. Standardize ratings across all media. It's completely insane for TV, Movies and games to have different ratings systems. As much as I don't like the MPAA's system for various reasons, they have spent decades educating the populace on their system, and the American public understands it. I know each industry has invested in the trademarks of their ratings, but I think these organizations need to decide what is more useful: doing things their own way, or working together to create a system which is useful to parents across the country.
Overall, I guess I'd like to see the government take over the ratings system and institute just a few broad distinctions: "Everyone" for things like Sesame Street, "kids" for things like the TV ratings' Y7, "Teens," and "Adults," which would be like a combined M/AO/R/NC-17/TV-MA. Parents could then rely on private ratings services like www.capalert.com (I disagree with their ratings, but if parents want to use them, that's their business) for more fine-grained ratings.
Once again, you have my full support.
Do this in the UK and I am there!
dprim: You may call us obnoxious and whatever, but millions of readers do not. Strength of numbers and unity within the entire gaming community are what matters, not the erroneous (in my view) opinion of a few individuals.
Nearly everyone else: I'm loving most of the replies here so far, guys. Your support is very encouraging and it means we can't fail in our mission, because if we have, we've let you all down. We'll let you all know as soon as we have developments.
Sounds good, im in.
Got your back guys!
Rockstar should make the files available on their site for download rapage ... for a small charge ofc :P
Awesome stuff.
I'm with you all the way on this guys.
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=11440097
This is where I found out. You have some more support, I guess.
Where do I sign up for my GFG decoder ring?
It's on like Donkey Kong!