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Definitly should have gone with PS3/steam instead then. I'm sick of microsoft money exclusive bullshit. I used to own 2 different 360's and they crapped out on me. So i miss out on Fez and Bastion and the like. And then timed Bethesda dlc is the worst. Sometimes its just 30 days but it is damn ridiculous that i cant play Dawnguard till Microsoft's cash teat runs out of its money milk. I used to not be so hateful towards Microsoft, i mean damn, i got my first 360 for Oblivion and it is a badass system, but i am good with paying $50 a year for multiplayer when i can pay $50 a year for a decent collection of all kinds of sick games with PS Plus. So microsoft, you suck at life. I understand platform exclusive games, but quit it with the "perks" of picking systems for a game. Sony does it as well, but not in this freakish frantic "pick me!" routine. Let us play games! Boooosh!
@Tristrix
Microsoft already gets a cut from every game sold. Overlooking that, Microsoft charges money for XBOX Live and bandwidth costs pennies per gigabyte. If it's not greed, then there must be gnomes extorting money from Microsoft.
Microsoft already gets a cut from every game sold. Overlooking that, Microsoft charges money for XBOX Live and bandwidth costs pennies per gigabyte. If it's not greed, then there must be gnomes extorting money from Microsoft.
@Raukue "Those friends mention XBLA but those good XBLA games end up on PC as well at some point."
Like Shadow Complex, Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 2, The Dishwasher 1&2, Schizoid, Raskulls, Ilomilo, Hydro Thunder Hurricane etc.?
Let me guess, you're still holding out hope for PC releases of those titles as well?
Like Shadow Complex, Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 2, The Dishwasher 1&2, Schizoid, Raskulls, Ilomilo, Hydro Thunder Hurricane etc.?
Let me guess, you're still holding out hope for PC releases of those titles as well?
And that is why you NEVER NEVER NEVER develop exclusive indie games just for XBL.
but then again 500,000 x was it $15? is about $7,500,000? shouldn't the publisher have had made enough to pay for a 40K patch? I mean it is a lot to spend, but the game is broke and needs fixed (especially if we are ever going to get a PC version)
Should have done Steam first. Would have sold 3 times the copies and none of this pay to update broken products...
but then again 500,000 x was it $15? is about $7,500,000? shouldn't the publisher have had made enough to pay for a 40K patch? I mean it is a lot to spend, but the game is broke and needs fixed (especially if we are ever going to get a PC version)
Should have done Steam first. Would have sold 3 times the copies and none of this pay to update broken products...
For all those ready to jump down Microsoft's throat (and believe me, I see the reasons why that would be warranted), Polytron and Phil Fish can in no way, shape, or form be excused for pushing this broken piece of shit out of the door. Period. Takes some fucking responsibility for your failures as a developer. The $40K patch penalty is there to stop you from shipping a broken game in the first place. Stop trying to turn this around like it's all big bad Microsoft's fault.
And please gaming community, stop with the apologetics. If you continue to defend this type of shit, you're gonna continue to get broken games. It doesn't matter if it's a little indie game or the next Bethesda title. It's just as bad either way.
And please gaming community, stop with the apologetics. If you continue to defend this type of shit, you're gonna continue to get broken games. It doesn't matter if it's a little indie game or the next Bethesda title. It's just as bad either way.
I really hate Microsoft now. Used to love them. Please give your money to PSN and PS3 instead folks.
@Wootallica
First time patches are free (xbla). It's every patch afterwards that costs the 40K fee.
I'm not buying into the exclusive fee charge quote unless that has something to do with some sort of advertising agreement. That's absurd.
The irony here is that MS initially offered Phil Fish the opportunity for Fez to be featured in the Summer of Arcade 2012 line-up. Fish turned down the offer, practically mocking and throwing MS under the bus, saying that it was below him to have to wait until the summer to release Fez (despite the game being in development for over five years).
First time patches are free (xbla). It's every patch afterwards that costs the 40K fee.
I'm not buying into the exclusive fee charge quote unless that has something to do with some sort of advertising agreement. That's absurd.
The irony here is that MS initially offered Phil Fish the opportunity for Fez to be featured in the Summer of Arcade 2012 line-up. Fish turned down the offer, practically mocking and throwing MS under the bus, saying that it was below him to have to wait until the summer to release Fez (despite the game being in development for over five years).
In other news, Phil Fish will never be entrusted to head another game ever again.
Make sure your game isn't fucking broken before you launch it, shithead. If not, choke the money required to fix it.
"This game was meant to be played on your TV on your couch on a Saturday morning. It's a console game for consoles. End of story."
Your game is broken shit on any medium on any day, asshole. I love seeing people who make stupid statements get it thrown back at them.
Make sure your game isn't fucking broken before you launch it, shithead. If not, choke the money required to fix it.
"This game was meant to be played on your TV on your couch on a Saturday morning. It's a console game for consoles. End of story."
Your game is broken shit on any medium on any day, asshole. I love seeing people who make stupid statements get it thrown back at them.
@Wootallica
First time patches are free (xbla). It's every patch afterwards that costs the 40K fee.
I'm not buying into the exclusive fee charge quote unless that has something to do with some sort of advertising agreement. That's absurd.
The irony here is that MS initially offered Phil Fish the opportunity for Fez to be featured in the Summer of Arcade 2012 line-up. Fish turned down the offer, practically mocking and throwing MS under the bus, saying that it was below him to have to wait until the summer to release Fez (despite the game being in development for over five years).
First time patches are free (xbla). It's every patch afterwards that costs the 40K fee.
I'm not buying into the exclusive fee charge quote unless that has something to do with some sort of advertising agreement. That's absurd.
The irony here is that MS initially offered Phil Fish the opportunity for Fez to be featured in the Summer of Arcade 2012 line-up. Fish turned down the offer, practically mocking and throwing MS under the bus, saying that it was below him to have to wait until the summer to release Fez (despite the game being in development for over five years).
@4eyes: Unless you have a article stating otherwise, all others are saying its $40,000 regardless of what patch it is.
@SeymourDuncan17
"He doesn't appreciate games that treat the player like a 3 year old: holding your hand through everything, repeating directions, etc."
are you serious??? your accusing japanese gaming yet western gaming are actually the ones dumbing down games and hold your hands till the end.
this is delicious and sad at the same time.
oh well thanks for the laugh though ^^
as for paying for patches that's just BS.
i guess next gen could be my last if things like this keeps up
"He doesn't appreciate games that treat the player like a 3 year old: holding your hand through everything, repeating directions, etc."
are you serious??? your accusing japanese gaming yet western gaming are actually the ones dumbing down games and hold your hands till the end.
this is delicious and sad at the same time.
oh well thanks for the laugh though ^^
as for paying for patches that's just BS.
i guess next gen could be my last if things like this keeps up
@4eyes from what I read, Microsoft actually let them get the first patch free. They gave him a freebie and he Fucked up and had to pay.
I'd buy this in a heartbeat if it were released DRM-free on the PC, just like Braid and Super Meat Boy before it. (I chose those games since they were the other parts of the documentary.) Phil, PLEASE bring this to the Humble Store!
If I was making a game I would surely consider the cost of such patches when in production and, I don't know, try a little harder to make the game better before releasing it.
I'm just waiting to get it on steam. I'm glad these indie guys have the ability to release games on mainstream consoles to maximize their reach and make money. But if any digital distributor is getting a piece of my money when I buy it, it's going to be steam. I'm happy to wait a little longer.
For those who say XBL subscriptions should pay for patches, or that all patches should be free...
Modern Warfare 3's forum lists 18 Title Updates for the Xbox 360. Each Title Update is, I believe, a certified patch. (Hotfixes are a different matter.) Modern Warfare 3 is still fairly broken. IW is still trying to figure out why their netcode doesn't work, still trying to fix their poorly implemented spawn system, have known issues that have remained broken since release, and won't even touch some stuff.
That is the shape of an extremely profitable game. Sure, it is pretty much the worst case scenario, but that game was released by developers who have previously claimed concern at the cost of patches. Imagine what code they might have shipped if patches were free. I could see a game like that releasing full patches as fast as they were allowed.
Modern Warfare 3's forum lists 18 Title Updates for the Xbox 360. Each Title Update is, I believe, a certified patch. (Hotfixes are a different matter.) Modern Warfare 3 is still fairly broken. IW is still trying to figure out why their netcode doesn't work, still trying to fix their poorly implemented spawn system, have known issues that have remained broken since release, and won't even touch some stuff.
That is the shape of an extremely profitable game. Sure, it is pretty much the worst case scenario, but that game was released by developers who have previously claimed concern at the cost of patches. Imagine what code they might have shipped if patches were free. I could see a game like that releasing full patches as fast as they were allowed.
I don't know how they would manage this, but they should offer anyone who already bought their game a free patched version on Steam when it inevitably releases there.
I'd believe a word this guy said if he didn't try to claim that they had to pay MS a ton to be exclusive. Who the fuck does he think he's fooling?
@dtomek
The issue may just be in the way he has described things.
My guess is that in order to be released on XBLA, he needed to agree to an exclusive. Beyond this, he still needed to do a regular release contract, where he'd pay some fees ("some fees" being a five digit value) and Microsoft would get some cut of sales.
Now that Phil is angry, he's saying that he "had to pay to be exclusive," a statement that is both accurate and misleading, depending on how you want to see the situation.
Hrm. Looking for info turned up an article from May that implies Polytron was already upset:
Minecraft also gets free updates, "which is something every other developer on the platform is told is simply not an option," Polytron wrote. Notch replied: "We had to fight for that, and we got a limited number of them. Not sure why they don't like it."
http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/10/minecraft-xbla-was-profitable-within-an-hour/
The issue may just be in the way he has described things.
My guess is that in order to be released on XBLA, he needed to agree to an exclusive. Beyond this, he still needed to do a regular release contract, where he'd pay some fees ("some fees" being a five digit value) and Microsoft would get some cut of sales.
Now that Phil is angry, he's saying that he "had to pay to be exclusive," a statement that is both accurate and misleading, depending on how you want to see the situation.
Hrm. Looking for info turned up an article from May that implies Polytron was already upset:
Minecraft also gets free updates, "which is something every other developer on the platform is told is simply not an option," Polytron wrote. Notch replied: "We had to fight for that, and we got a limited number of them. Not sure why they don't like it."
http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/10/minecraft-xbla-was-profitable-within-an-hour/
And this was gonna be a console-exclusive game. No matter what games were like in our youth, their platforms just aren't the same anymore, no matter the default controller.
Well, maybe Phil Fish should have released a game that worked then, and in lieu of that created a patch that worked.
Not being a cunt might have helped too.
Not being a cunt might have helped too.
I really don't get people defending MS/Sony for charging $40,000 to patch a game. Valve lets devs do that for free. The cost is not remotely justified. It's nothing but pathetic fanboyism.
Games have bugs, no matter how much they test them. MS/Sony should make it easy for developers to support their releases with quick fixes for problems that come up. Not put up barriers that prevent them from improving or fixing their product. This is why you see games like Dungeon Defenders falling behind the PC versions in terms of patches, freebies, and DLC.
Games have bugs, no matter how much they test them. MS/Sony should make it easy for developers to support their releases with quick fixes for problems that come up. Not put up barriers that prevent them from improving or fixing their product. This is why you see games like Dungeon Defenders falling behind the PC versions in terms of patches, freebies, and DLC.
So then Fez will be coming to the PC after all? I was under the impression for a while there that this one was going to remain an Xbox exclusive. Either I was mistaken, or actually having to deal with Microsoft inspired a change of heart. Either way, good news as I've been wanting to play this for a while.
Inevitably, the Steam version of this is going to sell better and faster than the XBLA version. That's always what happens in these situations. Money isn't necessarily the first concern for indie devs, nor should it be, but given this is pretty much always the case, you'd think devs would realize that if Microsoft wants you to be exclusive to their platform for a while in order to be on it, then to hell with Microsoft. You literally do not need them or their platform.
Inevitably, the Steam version of this is going to sell better and faster than the XBLA version. That's always what happens in these situations. Money isn't necessarily the first concern for indie devs, nor should it be, but given this is pretty much always the case, you'd think devs would realize that if Microsoft wants you to be exclusive to their platform for a while in order to be on it, then to hell with Microsoft. You literally do not need them or their platform.
Bummer. I've been picking through it, but I'll wait until the patch comes out again before getting back into it. Just in case I am that 1%. Any idea when the patch is being rereleased?
@Paroxysm "Microsoft Certified" my ass. This 40.000 Dollar "certification" lets stuff pass that deletes your savegames, and then when they find out about it later like a donkey, they go "Good enough". What a joke. Not one cent would that clown business get from me.
I think companies should be charged depending on what the patch does if it is just a few minor fixes is should be free or next to nothing whereas if it is a patch to fix stuff that has been released in an unacceptable state then they should pay for it cause it will bring negative PR to the console it is on.
I would hardly call the original release of Fez a "shitty job", and it's unfortunate Phil Fish has a reputation as a "cry-baby", when it seems to be his critics who do the most whining.
And what exactly are people criticizing, his personality? Okay then...
And what exactly are people criticizing, his personality? Okay then...
MS/Sony's cert process isn't really intended to stress test things like the save process. They'll make sure your saving process appears to comply with some basic rules, but they're not going to exhaustively attempt to break the save file. They just want to make sure that all games on their system do things in a uniform way, so that the end user knows what to expect and so that certain minimum quality standards are present in all games.
Fish may be talking about having to pay back MS for things like dev kits and maybe MS helped them do some pre-cert-submission testing. I believe failing cert too many times can cost money, just like submitting patches for cert. testing. I wouldn't be surprised if they failed too many times but MS agreed to recoup the resubmission fees from sales.
Fish may be talking about having to pay back MS for things like dev kits and maybe MS helped them do some pre-cert-submission testing. I believe failing cert too many times can cost money, just like submitting patches for cert. testing. I wouldn't be surprised if they failed too many times but MS agreed to recoup the resubmission fees from sales.
Wait...
WHAT WAS THAT ?
1] $40K for a Patch ?
2] I PAY MS to make my game Exclusive ? DAFAQ ?
Then PhilFish and Polytron are dumbasses of the highest caliber.
Seeing as they should have released it for the PC in the first place where all the Hype was, they go ahead and PAY MS to be exclusive ?!
Good grief.
WHAT WAS THAT ?
1] $40K for a Patch ?
2] I PAY MS to make my game Exclusive ? DAFAQ ?
Then PhilFish and Polytron are dumbasses of the highest caliber.
Seeing as they should have released it for the PC in the first place where all the Hype was, they go ahead and PAY MS to be exclusive ?!
Good grief.
So they PAYED Microsoft to be featured on a console that is known to be really bad when it comes to patches-
And then they go and make a buggy game.
I don't get if they're idiots, incompetent, or both.
And then they go and make a buggy game.
I don't get if they're idiots, incompetent, or both.
Lol, who didnt see this coming? The guy is all about the spotlight, that usually entails a greed factor as well
Wow, what a shitfest. Now he probably doesn't think that the 360 was the better choice.
Whatever, I'll gladly buy Fez when it's released on Steam.
Whatever, I'll gladly buy Fez when it's released on Steam.
@Tristrix: "Someone has to pay for the bandwidth used to download it. Why shouldn't that be the person who made the game that had to be patched?" Uh yea, you do for the XBL service.. you realize you/others pay for the bandwidth with your/others subscriptions as with the hundreds of ads they throw at you/others daily..
So... charging the dev is quite greedy for exclusivity rights seeing it's not very profitable for a game to only release for one console.. any moron can understand that concept yet why the creators of Fez didn't realize that is beyond me.. and to pay for its exclusivity? Heh... talk about enjoying ass play...
So... charging the dev is quite greedy for exclusivity rights seeing it's not very profitable for a game to only release for one console.. any moron can understand that concept yet why the creators of Fez didn't realize that is beyond me.. and to pay for its exclusivity? Heh... talk about enjoying ass play...
To all the people bitching that they should have released it bug free: How the hell are either the developer OR Microsoft supposed to catch something that affects less than 1% of players? It's beyond unreasonable to expect that to be caught before it goes live. This isn't something that the majority of players get it's a tiny tiny minority. In order to fix bugs you have to be able to catch and then reproduce them to find out what's wrong and how to fix it. Debugging is only likely to catch major bugs that affect a much larger percent of players. As for certification as far as I understand it Microsoft doesn't care about bugs they just care that it doesn't break any of the guidelines they care about. Look at some of the games released on the 360 do you really think Microsoft cares about finding bugs?
So let me get this straight - he didn't want to release the game on PC (where this kind of problem doesn't even exist) because it "wouldn't feel right on PC", but having it broken on consoles feels right?
@ Scuffles
I was thinking the same thing. Sure, the developer made a broken game, but MS gave it the greenlight and released it. They were willing to take peoples cash, they need to share responsibilty for making it right.
@ Excel
Agreed. And that could be said of the publisher as well. To not facilitate the patch is direspectful and dismissive.
I was thinking the same thing. Sure, the developer made a broken game, but MS gave it the greenlight and released it. They were willing to take peoples cash, they need to share responsibilty for making it right.
@ Excel
Agreed. And that could be said of the publisher as well. To not facilitate the patch is direspectful and dismissive.
@Excel-2011 In an ideal word indeed, but remember developers are business as well. If it costs them 40k to patch it and they likely won't make that 40k back from future sales it's not worth it. It would be irresponsible to make decisions that are bad for business. That said Fish and co could have handled this a whole hell of a lot better.
They should bite the bullet and patch it anyways. Its their fault for putting the game on a system that charges for patching...not the customers.
It is a neat looking game, but if it comes to PC I'll have a hard time blocking out the thought of how Polytron handles things, and how that makes me not want to support them.
It is a neat looking game, but if it comes to PC I'll have a hard time blocking out the thought of how Polytron handles things, and how that makes me not want to support them.
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