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YOH THAT VISCANT PIC IS AMAZING!!!! I find myself wanting more and more to be apart of a fighting game community. Watching people like Gootecks and Mike Ross bringing character and putting a popular face to fighting games makes me want to find a fighting game group even more.
I agree that fighting games have spilled from hardcore enthusiast category to full blown hype. Fighting games just have so much character in both their designs and the people who represent them like Yipes, the voice of Marvel.
Here's hoping that Evo gets even bigger and better and that words like "salty" never die.
I agree that fighting games have spilled from hardcore enthusiast category to full blown hype. Fighting games just have so much character in both their designs and the people who represent them like Yipes, the voice of Marvel.
Here's hoping that Evo gets even bigger and better and that words like "salty" never die.
I forgot to mention in the article but maybe I'll go back to insert it but I know it's permeating mainstream gaming culture when a friend of mine, someone who off the top of my head plays mostly COD and maybe Minecraft, asked me what salty meant in context after EVO ended.
Now I know I live in a world of hype.
Now I know I live in a world of hype.
Now that I think about it, that actually kinda looks like Viscant. And nice job on getting front paged
And thus the era of fighting games being FUN has ended.
Now the era of tourney*** pandering and excessive and exploitative DLC has began.
RIP... FUN Fighting Games.
Now the era of tourney*** pandering and excessive and exploitative DLC has began.
RIP... FUN Fighting Games.
I'm not debating that eSports are becoming a legitimate, professional competition.
I think it's awesome that this year saw eSports becoming much more mainstream.
But holy fucking hell, the way the word 'hype' is used in the eSports community may be the most grating thing I have seen (or heard, in this case) come out of gaming in a damn long time. I'm sorry, but it just sounds like you're all raping the English language. I love new slang, I love analyzing new words and seeing how they come about, but... no. Just no. Please stop using that word that way.
I think it's awesome that this year saw eSports becoming much more mainstream.
But holy fucking hell, the way the word 'hype' is used in the eSports community may be the most grating thing I have seen (or heard, in this case) come out of gaming in a damn long time. I'm sorry, but it just sounds like you're all raping the English language. I love new slang, I love analyzing new words and seeing how they come about, but... no. Just no. Please stop using that word that way.
I still don't think participating in fighting games is anything close to an eSport but that's arguing semantics so whatever.
Welcome to the fold~
Welcome to the fold~
@Laharl Krichevskoy - Games are only not-fun if you believe in it strongly enough. Like the boogeyman or Justin Beiber.
@Muddbastrd - I swear, the community on the east coast must be holding conferences about making up new terminology. Seriously? Mortons to describe someone being a sore loser? Oh Yipes, will you ever be reasonable.
@Master Chibi - My (attempted) point was that fighting game culture and excitement has spilled over into mainstream media and that's a cool thing. Either eSport got added a few too many times in the editing process (I remember using it only once originally) or I just ran my mouth (keyboard?) too much.
@Muddbastrd - I swear, the community on the east coast must be holding conferences about making up new terminology. Seriously? Mortons to describe someone being a sore loser? Oh Yipes, will you ever be reasonable.
@Master Chibi - My (attempted) point was that fighting game culture and excitement has spilled over into mainstream media and that's a cool thing. Either eSport got added a few too many times in the editing process (I remember using it only once originally) or I just ran my mouth (keyboard?) too much.
I'm gonna play the noob here. What's it take to dive into the fighting game scene? As a kid who unfortunately owns neither an eggsbawks or pee-ess-tree, how would I do this?
It's exciting seeing how big this is getting. I'm still iffy on needing to give it the title of sport. It can be its own thing and still be awesome, but it's not like I'll shit myself either way. Regardless, the fighting community seems sweet, although I agree
Good article bro, grats on front page :D
It's exciting seeing how big this is getting. I'm still iffy on needing to give it the title of sport. It can be its own thing and still be awesome, but it's not like I'll shit myself either way. Regardless, the fighting community seems sweet, although I agree
Good article bro, grats on front page :D
Aw tits :P
*although I agree with MuddBstrd that 'hype' will get old fast :P That's trivial though :)
*although I agree with MuddBstrd that 'hype' will get old fast :P That's trivial though :)
@Lausgoose - I tend to not think big. I'm easy to satisfy. With that context on how my mind works, I simply suggest finding your local scene and participating in that community before thinking about things like tournaments and EVO. I hear SRK has a big compendium of regional scenes you can get involved with and establish a friendly network of friends and rivals.
This YouTube personality I like, Behrudy, lives in Canada and has a Canadian scene he participates in. I've never heard of such a community (it had a name, like Canadian Joysticks or something) but it sounds like he has a great time being apart of it.
See kids! Being competitive doesn't have to mean being sponsored and going to EVO! It can also mean things like friendship and trust and guts and whatever else Shounen Jump stands for or something!
This YouTube personality I like, Behrudy, lives in Canada and has a Canadian scene he participates in. I've never heard of such a community (it had a name, like Canadian Joysticks or something) but it sounds like he has a great time being apart of it.
See kids! Being competitive doesn't have to mean being sponsored and going to EVO! It can also mean things like friendship and trust and guts and whatever else Shounen Jump stands for or something!
@Lausgoose, unfortunately, it does cost a bit of money to get into the fighting game scene, especially if you don't have an xbox or playstation. The better consoles for fighting games are the PS2 and PS3 as they are tournament standard. If you have a PS2, that's great, and I would recommend that you get Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core, Melty Blood: Actress Again, or Street Fighter III: Third Strike. You can also play old PS1 games (like Vampire Savior/Darkstalkers and some PS2 games on GGPO. Otherwise, there are such things as 'doujin' (indie) fighters for the PC. Here's a link to a free doujin fighter that has netplay (wonderful world): http://www.mediafire.com/?yfu6sb3tv8dz8bm
@Strider
Thanks man, those are good ideas I'll definitely tuck away. Depending on how much fun I have, I may start thinking bigger, but I would love makin' friendly like with other children playin fighty-sticks.
Yeah, that's something I noticed, but don't mind so long as I'm having fun with it long after the purchase. I actually do own a PS2! :D But its broken :P Dammit. 35 bucks at the local VG Heaven will get me a new one though, so I may do that :) And thanks for the link, thatll be a good way for me to get my feet wet before buying anything :)
Look at these two, already showing Dtoid how cool the fighting community is :D
Thanks man, those are good ideas I'll definitely tuck away. Depending on how much fun I have, I may start thinking bigger, but I would love makin' friendly like with other children playin fighty-sticks.
Yeah, that's something I noticed, but don't mind so long as I'm having fun with it long after the purchase. I actually do own a PS2! :D But its broken :P Dammit. 35 bucks at the local VG Heaven will get me a new one though, so I may do that :) And thanks for the link, thatll be a good way for me to get my feet wet before buying anything :)
Look at these two, already showing Dtoid how cool the fighting community is :D
I know "cookie" personally. He is really cool and gets really into the character he uses. Really good street fighter player as well.
I think watching EVO is incredibly exciting. I get HYPE!
I think there's definitely excitement and an infection nature to following a fighting game tournament over a social network. I've enjoyed that for the past two years now.
But, I don't think fighting games are anywhere near the pulse of the main stream. Far from it. Outside of gamerdom, its still as obscure and ridiculous a concept to most people as considering chess a sport.
Aa mainstream eSport future? Its a possibility. But in no way an inevitability.
I think there's definitely excitement and an infection nature to following a fighting game tournament over a social network. I've enjoyed that for the past two years now.
But, I don't think fighting games are anywhere near the pulse of the main stream. Far from it. Outside of gamerdom, its still as obscure and ridiculous a concept to most people as considering chess a sport.
Aa mainstream eSport future? Its a possibility. But in no way an inevitability.
Hype as an adjective is getting old, I'll give you that.
As an e-sport, I think that fighting games are going to become a mainstream staple. It's the community which is going to really vault it into the big-time.
As an e-sport, I think that fighting games are going to become a mainstream staple. It's the community which is going to really vault it into the big-time.
@Laharl,
If you don't think the people at these events are having fun, you're nuts. Some of my most entertaining memories are from game tournaments. And people generally only play games that they like to play. It's not like I'm forcing myself to play Tekken 6. I love Tekken, and I love learning more about it.
@Lausgoose,
The biggest barrier to tourny play is finding competition. If you can find a group of people that you like to play fighters with, you can push each other to get better and better. I used to be in the middle of a pretty good-sized community (Central PA) that was capped off on both ends (Pitt and Philly) with big gaming communities. Now I only have one other friend who plays competitively in the area so it's really hard to get experience.
The next biggest barrier is attitude. You NEED to be willing to get your ass handed to you a thousand times over in exchange for learning to get better. Online play will only get you so far, but it DOES allow you to get used to seeing the dozens and dozens of possible characters you'll be up against. And then, when you think you're getting good, go to a tourny and get your ass handed to you even more.
The price barrier can be rendered a non-issue if you can find someone with the games you want to play who's looking for people to play. I wouldn't care if someone was mooching off of my PS3 just so long as I had LIVE HUMANS to play against.
If you don't think the people at these events are having fun, you're nuts. Some of my most entertaining memories are from game tournaments. And people generally only play games that they like to play. It's not like I'm forcing myself to play Tekken 6. I love Tekken, and I love learning more about it.
@Lausgoose,
The biggest barrier to tourny play is finding competition. If you can find a group of people that you like to play fighters with, you can push each other to get better and better. I used to be in the middle of a pretty good-sized community (Central PA) that was capped off on both ends (Pitt and Philly) with big gaming communities. Now I only have one other friend who plays competitively in the area so it's really hard to get experience.
The next biggest barrier is attitude. You NEED to be willing to get your ass handed to you a thousand times over in exchange for learning to get better. Online play will only get you so far, but it DOES allow you to get used to seeing the dozens and dozens of possible characters you'll be up against. And then, when you think you're getting good, go to a tourny and get your ass handed to you even more.
The price barrier can be rendered a non-issue if you can find someone with the games you want to play who's looking for people to play. I wouldn't care if someone was mooching off of my PS3 just so long as I had LIVE HUMANS to play against.
@Dinnertime Ninja
Yes, the people at TOURNEY's are having fun, but like I said, Tourny*** pandering ruins the game for normal people. The more you tweak a game for those people, the less casuals will play.
And if tourny**** have there way, it will get to the point where these games are only online and practice modes, and no one will play them but hardcore players, so they won't sell enough to warrant making them anymore... Leading to another decade of fighting games being dead.
At least we'll always have SSB, no matter how much THOSE people bitch about it being unbalanced.
Yes, the people at TOURNEY's are having fun, but like I said, Tourny*** pandering ruins the game for normal people. The more you tweak a game for those people, the less casuals will play.
And if tourny**** have there way, it will get to the point where these games are only online and practice modes, and no one will play them but hardcore players, so they won't sell enough to warrant making them anymore... Leading to another decade of fighting games being dead.
At least we'll always have SSB, no matter how much THOSE people bitch about it being unbalanced.
The tourneyf@gs are not the ones getting their way here Laharl. It may seem that way but all the 'normal' people (what the hell is that supposed to mean anyway) are the ones the current generation of games is pandering too.
I'd love to pick at the point that being a tourneyf@g is simply being GOOD at a game much like EVERY OTHER GAMER ON THIS SITE strives to be in their respective games / genres, but that's a blog that's barely worth addressing for another day.
@ Strider:
I've been playing for like ten years, for people to call it an 'esport' now makes absolutely no sense to me. We're really not fashioned into a league or anything close to a sport, but again it's not worth arguing over. People can call it what they want :P
I'd love to pick at the point that being a tourneyf@g is simply being GOOD at a game much like EVERY OTHER GAMER ON THIS SITE strives to be in their respective games / genres, but that's a blog that's barely worth addressing for another day.
@ Strider:
I've been playing for like ten years, for people to call it an 'esport' now makes absolutely no sense to me. We're really not fashioned into a league or anything close to a sport, but again it's not worth arguing over. People can call it what they want :P
I love how there always exists this group of gamers that believes that tournament players aren't having fun, and that designing a game with tournament play in mind makes the game unfun for casuals. (News flash: If the game isn't fun at a casual level, no one will ever take it to a professional level. Simple as that.) As if 'playing to win' takes all the fun out of the game.
If you aren't 'playing to win', then what the hell are you doing? Don't get me wrong, you can enjoy playing and still lose, but if it isn't your primary goal, then perhaps you should find another genre. They are FIGHTING games. Their very existence is based on competition.
Those that talk down on tourneyf@gs strike me as people who don't want to learn to win. Those who don't want to improve themselves. If you do not have that drive, then seriously: find another genre. Preferably, one that has no hint of competition, because there is always going to be someone better, and if you don't have the drive to improve, you'll never enjoy the game.
On topic: That is an epic pic of Viscant. Also, great article.
If you aren't 'playing to win', then what the hell are you doing? Don't get me wrong, you can enjoy playing and still lose, but if it isn't your primary goal, then perhaps you should find another genre. They are FIGHTING games. Their very existence is based on competition.
Those that talk down on tourneyf@gs strike me as people who don't want to learn to win. Those who don't want to improve themselves. If you do not have that drive, then seriously: find another genre. Preferably, one that has no hint of competition, because there is always going to be someone better, and if you don't have the drive to improve, you'll never enjoy the game.
On topic: That is an epic pic of Viscant. Also, great article.
Last I checked, bigger tournaments, more players and more exposure for the genre as a whole meant more sales. So I fail to see how Fighting Games as an esport hurts the genre - especially when you consider that even the Korean's say that Street Fighter is arguably the #2 esport in the world now behind StarCraft.
@the7k - that's an interesting (and agreeable) point you make. I don't want to generalize the difference between people who play casually for fun and people who play competitively for money, but why would the more laid back crowd care about balance changes taken from feedback from the competitive community?
If you don't care about the competitive community, what does it matter if the devs decide to change gameplay based on feedback from the competitive community?
And wait a second. Why am I even discussing this? I started this article because I was surprised my friend asked me to define, "salty," on Facebook!
If you don't care about the competitive community, what does it matter if the devs decide to change gameplay based on feedback from the competitive community?
And wait a second. Why am I even discussing this? I started this article because I was surprised my friend asked me to define, "salty," on Facebook!
@Master Chibi
Then explain why SF4 and MvC have almost no extras? It's arcade, training, practice and online and shadow battle. 4 out of those 5 things are tuned to "Serious" players. No story mode, no Vs. Cpu, No special modes, No unlockable art... Unless you count the Dozens of tags for online, but once again, that is something casual players will never notice after getting creamed online and giving up.
Look at something from the last few gens, or even a few years ago. like Tekken 6 and Soul Caliber 4. TONS of extras, or Street Fighter Alpha 3! That thing and tons of modes.
BlazBlue and MK were good with extras, but SF and MvC are as bare-bones as could be, and the are the gold standards of fighting games. so what is there really for a casual player to do in the game? Unlock the two frame text endings in the super repetitive arcade mode?
Then explain why SF4 and MvC have almost no extras? It's arcade, training, practice and online and shadow battle. 4 out of those 5 things are tuned to "Serious" players. No story mode, no Vs. Cpu, No special modes, No unlockable art... Unless you count the Dozens of tags for online, but once again, that is something casual players will never notice after getting creamed online and giving up.
Look at something from the last few gens, or even a few years ago. like Tekken 6 and Soul Caliber 4. TONS of extras, or Street Fighter Alpha 3! That thing and tons of modes.
BlazBlue and MK were good with extras, but SF and MvC are as bare-bones as could be, and the are the gold standards of fighting games. so what is there really for a casual player to do in the game? Unlock the two frame text endings in the super repetitive arcade mode?
@the7k
You seem to be missing the whole meaning of "Casual"
They aren't playing to win, they are playing to HAVE FUN. Not everyone gets off from beating other people, some people just like to mess around with a good fighting engine with a lot of modes and extras.
That's like saying people who don't play mario to get all the stars shouldn't bother, because they "AREN'T PLAYING TO WIN!"
You seem to be missing the whole meaning of "Casual"
They aren't playing to win, they are playing to HAVE FUN. Not everyone gets off from beating other people, some people just like to mess around with a good fighting engine with a lot of modes and extras.
That's like saying people who don't play mario to get all the stars shouldn't bother, because they "AREN'T PLAYING TO WIN!"
Listen Destructoid, I appreciate you guys trying to cover up Elsa's bullshit article, but I'm still salty about it.
Also, good stuff Strider.
Also, good stuff Strider.
@StriderHoang
I worded my point poorly, the problem isn't tuning the game for tournaments, the problem is ignoring the casuals to cater to said tourney players.
Once again I point to the content difference between Alpha 3 and SF4.
Why couldn't 4, or super 4, or arcade 4 have all that content... no, even half that?
Personally, I blame Seth. He is the voice of the tourney players, and said voice doesn't really get why Casuals play fighting games.
There is absolutely no reason SF4 shouldn't have the same amount of content as Alpha 3, a PS1 game.
But, the article is very well written, even if i don't care for the subject matter ;)
I worded my point poorly, the problem isn't tuning the game for tournaments, the problem is ignoring the casuals to cater to said tourney players.
Once again I point to the content difference between Alpha 3 and SF4.
Why couldn't 4, or super 4, or arcade 4 have all that content... no, even half that?
Personally, I blame Seth. He is the voice of the tourney players, and said voice doesn't really get why Casuals play fighting games.
There is absolutely no reason SF4 shouldn't have the same amount of content as Alpha 3, a PS1 game.
But, the article is very well written, even if i don't care for the subject matter ;)
@Laharl
I honestly don't understand your point... If you don't find playing the actual fighting game fun, then maybe fighting games aren't for you? Extra modes are always a good diversion, but that is all they are. Once again, if you don't find engaging in fighting games fun then I don't know what to tell you...
Just because you don't find fighting games fun doesn't mean they aren't fun for the rest of us. I have played hundreds of hours of Street Fighter 4 in its many iterations, I can honestly say I was having fun the entire time. Once again, just because you are playing to win doesn't mean that you aren't also playing for fun.
It is like saying that Borderlands is not a fun FPS because it doesn't have a good story; since when has a quality FPS been decided by a quality story? Sure some have had them, but it isn't what makes a FPS fun, the gameplay is.
I honestly don't understand your point... If you don't find playing the actual fighting game fun, then maybe fighting games aren't for you? Extra modes are always a good diversion, but that is all they are. Once again, if you don't find engaging in fighting games fun then I don't know what to tell you...
Just because you don't find fighting games fun doesn't mean they aren't fun for the rest of us. I have played hundreds of hours of Street Fighter 4 in its many iterations, I can honestly say I was having fun the entire time. Once again, just because you are playing to win doesn't mean that you aren't also playing for fun.
It is like saying that Borderlands is not a fun FPS because it doesn't have a good story; since when has a quality FPS been decided by a quality story? Sure some have had them, but it isn't what makes a FPS fun, the gameplay is.
No, borderlands is fun because it has a lot of content to match the sold engine.
It doesn't matter how good the foundation is when there is nothing to do with it.
You are thinking with tourney logic. The is a reason Smash Brothers totally kills SF in sales, and it's not just because of Mario and Link, In fact, it outsold both galaxies and twilight princess (not combined). It's because it is fun AND full of content. and it doesn't alienate players with over complicated mechanics and an overly competitive atmosphere.
2 generations ago we could pick up SF and say "Boy I can't wait to get home and kick my friends in the face!" Now it's "I can't wait to get a 150$ stick to give me a slight edge in online play!"
It doesn't matter how good the foundation is when there is nothing to do with it.
You are thinking with tourney logic. The is a reason Smash Brothers totally kills SF in sales, and it's not just because of Mario and Link, In fact, it outsold both galaxies and twilight princess (not combined). It's because it is fun AND full of content. and it doesn't alienate players with over complicated mechanics and an overly competitive atmosphere.
2 generations ago we could pick up SF and say "Boy I can't wait to get home and kick my friends in the face!" Now it's "I can't wait to get a 150$ stick to give me a slight edge in online play!"
@Laharl: When your Modus Operandi is to cater to people who play the game more than you breathe, your priorities are substantially ass-backwards from garden-variety game development. No genre has a bigger audience of players like this than the fighting genre.
The Capcom games tend to be feature light due to budget constraints. This pushes the playable characters, playtesting and gameplay animation to the forefront. This ensures, at the very least, that their product is everything their targeted market wants.
Could Street Fighter or Marvel be more enjoyable for the general masses if they spent more development time on unlockables, single-player content and customization?
Yes. They could. However, they would completely lose their target market. These games are developed by fans of fighting games for fans of fighting games, a very fiercely loyal market with huge emotional investments. If the people at Capcom have to make sacrifices, why should they prioritize anyone else? It's actually one of the nicer things about the company (or at least a subsection of it).
Capcom has the potential to cater to both audiences with a proper budget and a generous development timeline (The guy running the Capcom pocketbooks will cringe at these two phrases). The features can work and be developed in tandem, but they need substantial initial investment, something I don't think Capcom could have possibly been ready to do with SFIV. That game was slated as a "Last Hurrah" for the genre, getting an appropriately smaller budget. The additions didn't have the budget to implement anything substantial on the single-player end of things.
I think the heads of Capcom have a chance to "see the light" in this situation. 3rd Strike Online is jam packed with extraneous baubles and features that don't directly effect the competitive audience. If it sells well, future development may focus more on extras.
MK9 was a great competing product, as well. It's a great example of catering towards both audiences. They had deep pockets with WB, though. The game also lacked a lot of the standard gameplay "refinement" we see from companies like Capcom or Arc System Works. It had great singleplayer components, though. It also went toe-to-toe with MvC3 in sales.
With enough time and money to supplement work and effort, no one will be left behind in future titles... Whether or not Capcom has enough cash dollars for that kind of project is up in the air.
The Capcom games tend to be feature light due to budget constraints. This pushes the playable characters, playtesting and gameplay animation to the forefront. This ensures, at the very least, that their product is everything their targeted market wants.
Could Street Fighter or Marvel be more enjoyable for the general masses if they spent more development time on unlockables, single-player content and customization?
Yes. They could. However, they would completely lose their target market. These games are developed by fans of fighting games for fans of fighting games, a very fiercely loyal market with huge emotional investments. If the people at Capcom have to make sacrifices, why should they prioritize anyone else? It's actually one of the nicer things about the company (or at least a subsection of it).
Capcom has the potential to cater to both audiences with a proper budget and a generous development timeline (The guy running the Capcom pocketbooks will cringe at these two phrases). The features can work and be developed in tandem, but they need substantial initial investment, something I don't think Capcom could have possibly been ready to do with SFIV. That game was slated as a "Last Hurrah" for the genre, getting an appropriately smaller budget. The additions didn't have the budget to implement anything substantial on the single-player end of things.
I think the heads of Capcom have a chance to "see the light" in this situation. 3rd Strike Online is jam packed with extraneous baubles and features that don't directly effect the competitive audience. If it sells well, future development may focus more on extras.
MK9 was a great competing product, as well. It's a great example of catering towards both audiences. They had deep pockets with WB, though. The game also lacked a lot of the standard gameplay "refinement" we see from companies like Capcom or Arc System Works. It had great singleplayer components, though. It also went toe-to-toe with MvC3 in sales.
With enough time and money to supplement work and effort, no one will be left behind in future titles... Whether or not Capcom has enough cash dollars for that kind of project is up in the air.
And the Story not being important is shooters is a heavily flawed argument. Games like Deus Ex and Bioshock rely on atmosphere and storytelling over gameplay.
And content is important, Say I like the engine of Street Fighter, Smash Bros, MvC and Dissidia equally, but I can only buy 2. Well, Smash and Dissidia have substantially more content. So why should I bother with SF? Because it is more balanced? that means nothing to a casual player.
And content is important, Say I like the engine of Street Fighter, Smash Bros, MvC and Dissidia equally, but I can only buy 2. Well, Smash and Dissidia have substantially more content. So why should I bother with SF? Because it is more balanced? that means nothing to a casual player.
The stick isn't any more necessary today than it was 10 years ago. Also, content in fighting games hasn't really decreased. Yes, the PS1 version of SFA3 had a lot of extra content, but no other Street Fighter game ever had a similar amount of content. So Street Fighter 4 doesn't represent a decrease in content; if anything Alpha 3 plays the role of the exception, not the rule.
As for Smash Bro's... Well, it isn't really a fighting game. Sure, there is fighting in it; but it is the antithesis to all the fighting games people love. It seems like you are a big Smash Bro's fan, that is awesome, it was made for people like you. Don't try to make traditional fighting games something they aren't, something they never have been.
As for Smash Bro's... Well, it isn't really a fighting game. Sure, there is fighting in it; but it is the antithesis to all the fighting games people love. It seems like you are a big Smash Bro's fan, that is awesome, it was made for people like you. Don't try to make traditional fighting games something they aren't, something they never have been.
@Krackatoa
Budget constraints? Give me a break. Street Fighter is the gold standard of fighting games, and Capcom is one of the biggest companies around. On top of that Alpha 3 was during the depression of fighting games, meaning it probably had a substantially lower budget.
You don't need to ignore one side to please the other, BlazBlue did a fine job walking the line, and you'd have to be completely insane to say it had less constraints than SF. Budget or otherwise.
Budget constraints? Give me a break. Street Fighter is the gold standard of fighting games, and Capcom is one of the biggest companies around. On top of that Alpha 3 was during the depression of fighting games, meaning it probably had a substantially lower budget.
You don't need to ignore one side to please the other, BlazBlue did a fine job walking the line, and you'd have to be completely insane to say it had less constraints than SF. Budget or otherwise.
@Krackatoa
I think you and I are perfect examples of people who have fun playing fighting games... How so? I argue that any Dan main has an excellent fundamental understanding of fun. ;)
I think you and I are perfect examples of people who have fun playing fighting games... How so? I argue that any Dan main has an excellent fundamental understanding of fun. ;)
Smash Brothers is very much a fighting game, what else would it be?
Just because it shattered the mold and spit all over every arbitrary "Law" Tourny**** made up over the years doesn't make it any less legit.
That's like saying System Shock wasn't a FPS because it broke away from the tradition twitch aspect of the Average FPS and put an emphasis on storytelling and RPG elements.
Just because it shattered the mold and spit all over every arbitrary "Law" Tourny**** made up over the years doesn't make it any less legit.
That's like saying System Shock wasn't a FPS because it broke away from the tradition twitch aspect of the Average FPS and put an emphasis on storytelling and RPG elements.
@spman2099 "Don't try to make traditional fighting games something they aren't, something they never have been."
Except you know, every other fighting game by every other company this gen that had loads more content, and probably more balance than SF4AE.
Except you know, every other fighting game by every other company this gen that had loads more content, and probably more balance than SF4AE.
@Laharl
Aw, that's adorable, how you brought out your poorly constructed straw man to win an argument.
Again, it's a fighting game. There is exactly one objective - to beat your opponent. That's it. If you are not trying to beat your opponent, then you are playing the game wrong. Arcade Mode? Beat your opponent. Versus Mode? Beat your opponent. Story Mode? Beat your opponent.
If you are going to compare it to Mario at all (a flawed argument, considering it isn't a competitive game), it'd be like a gamer playing and getting game over before leaving World 1. Then another player comes up and beats the game in no time flat, sets a time record and never gets hit.
And the first player mocks the second one, and implies that because he does so well at the game, he must not be having fun with the game.
Also, you are seriously implying SF4 happened at a BETTER time than SFA3? SFA3 was during the time of Marvel vs Capcom, Capcom vs SNK, Darkstalkers, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Cyberbots, Power Stone and legions of other titles from Capcom ALONE. While fighting games were mostly dead at home (because the PSX couldn't handle them, and it was the dominant system of the time), they DOMINATED arcades. When SF4 came out, 2D fighters were considered dead outside of the doujin fighters. There's not even a BIT of a comparison. Its night and day.
Would it be nice if Capcom fighters had more single-player content? Sure. It'd also be nice if there were more costumes to choose from, a greater variety of stages and music options. That's all fluff. The focus of Capcom fighters is purely on providing a solid competitive experience. If adding any additions to the game compromises this goal, then it isn't worth it.
Aw, that's adorable, how you brought out your poorly constructed straw man to win an argument.
Again, it's a fighting game. There is exactly one objective - to beat your opponent. That's it. If you are not trying to beat your opponent, then you are playing the game wrong. Arcade Mode? Beat your opponent. Versus Mode? Beat your opponent. Story Mode? Beat your opponent.
If you are going to compare it to Mario at all (a flawed argument, considering it isn't a competitive game), it'd be like a gamer playing and getting game over before leaving World 1. Then another player comes up and beats the game in no time flat, sets a time record and never gets hit.
And the first player mocks the second one, and implies that because he does so well at the game, he must not be having fun with the game.
Also, you are seriously implying SF4 happened at a BETTER time than SFA3? SFA3 was during the time of Marvel vs Capcom, Capcom vs SNK, Darkstalkers, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Cyberbots, Power Stone and legions of other titles from Capcom ALONE. While fighting games were mostly dead at home (because the PSX couldn't handle them, and it was the dominant system of the time), they DOMINATED arcades. When SF4 came out, 2D fighters were considered dead outside of the doujin fighters. There's not even a BIT of a comparison. Its night and day.
Would it be nice if Capcom fighters had more single-player content? Sure. It'd also be nice if there were more costumes to choose from, a greater variety of stages and music options. That's all fluff. The focus of Capcom fighters is purely on providing a solid competitive experience. If adding any additions to the game compromises this goal, then it isn't worth it.
@Laharl: Let's see if I can address all your points.
Every game has budget constraints. Some more than others. In case you didn't pay any attention to SFIV's development, a company poll said that half of Capcom wanted the whole franchise dead so resources could be allocated to other projects. A Triple-A title being developed in a time when the genre was dead, on the back of a new engine? They even cut whole characters to make release (Deejay and T.Hawk were left unfinished on the disc.)
As for Alpha 3, all games developed in the 90s had exponentially smaller budgets than anything you'd see today. Workforces were smaller, people worked and were worked harder, people were paid less, software licenses costed less, audio was handled by 2 people instead of 20... the list goes on. You can't do that now, especially not with 3D assets. I don't care how much you outsource.
BlazBlue's extra content was smartly handled. There was very little of it. A bit of art and a lot of writing (which is super cheap to produce, by the way) goes a long way. It was not nearly enough. BlazBlue didn't find mainstream success, which is what Capcom requires for it's level of investment.
Also, try giving System Shock to someone who enjoys playing Quake 3 Deathmatch and wants more of that. They'll be bored to tears. It's a different product developed and aimed at a different audience. System Shock is an awful game if you're looking for a substantial multiplayer experience.
Smash Bros isn't a bad game. The problem with Brawl (Melee was cool competitively by complete accident) is that the game and it's developers do absolutely nothing to foster development of your skill with the game. This is why the competitive community laughs whenever it's brought up. However, this is a problem for the competitive community alone. Any effort they put towards the game will be for naught, struck down by random variables and poor game engine decisions.
Playing Brawl competitively is like trying to become a chessmaster if the rules state that some douche will always comes by when you play and slap some of your pieces off the table, regardless of who you're playing. Casual players will think it's hilarious and a fun time. Anyone striving to be better will curse at the lack of skill involved.
Every game has budget constraints. Some more than others. In case you didn't pay any attention to SFIV's development, a company poll said that half of Capcom wanted the whole franchise dead so resources could be allocated to other projects. A Triple-A title being developed in a time when the genre was dead, on the back of a new engine? They even cut whole characters to make release (Deejay and T.Hawk were left unfinished on the disc.)
As for Alpha 3, all games developed in the 90s had exponentially smaller budgets than anything you'd see today. Workforces were smaller, people worked and were worked harder, people were paid less, software licenses costed less, audio was handled by 2 people instead of 20... the list goes on. You can't do that now, especially not with 3D assets. I don't care how much you outsource.
BlazBlue's extra content was smartly handled. There was very little of it. A bit of art and a lot of writing (which is super cheap to produce, by the way) goes a long way. It was not nearly enough. BlazBlue didn't find mainstream success, which is what Capcom requires for it's level of investment.
Also, try giving System Shock to someone who enjoys playing Quake 3 Deathmatch and wants more of that. They'll be bored to tears. It's a different product developed and aimed at a different audience. System Shock is an awful game if you're looking for a substantial multiplayer experience.
Smash Bros isn't a bad game. The problem with Brawl (Melee was cool competitively by complete accident) is that the game and it's developers do absolutely nothing to foster development of your skill with the game. This is why the competitive community laughs whenever it's brought up. However, this is a problem for the competitive community alone. Any effort they put towards the game will be for naught, struck down by random variables and poor game engine decisions.
Playing Brawl competitively is like trying to become a chessmaster if the rules state that some douche will always comes by when you play and slap some of your pieces off the table, regardless of who you're playing. Casual players will think it's hilarious and a fun time. Anyone striving to be better will curse at the lack of skill involved.
I think it is also important to point out that many fighting games that had extra content were criticized for the quality of that content. Just look at Tekken 6 and Tekken 5. Both games had a separate game attached, one a beat'em up and the other an action game; both modes were obviously a little rough around the edges and both games were criticized for having lackluster extra modes present.
So Namco put extra resources into adding these modes and in the end it probably hurt them more than it helped them...
Just saying...
So Namco put extra resources into adding these modes and in the end it probably hurt them more than it helped them...
Just saying...
@the7k
It's not a Strawman when my entire point is how Capcom is ignoring casual fans. In fact, I have no idea what your point is beside "Screw Casuals" which basically proves my point. It's a video game, the point is to be FUN. Shooting games are about shooting, and making sure said shooting fun, not boosting your ego by beating others, the same is true of fighting. fun is subjective, the amount of content is not, and Capcom's recent fighting games are severely lacking in that department , especially compared to their contemporaries.
@Krackatoa
1st of all, don't believe all the corporate propaganda you read, companies lie and distort the truth to seem honest and reliable, and by this point we should all know Capcom has a very tenuous grasp on the truth.
2nd, you don't really buy that budget stuff do you? Games like BB or even Arcana Heart and Battle Fantasia have more content than SF, and on a substantially lower budget.
Besides, you basically admitted Capcom doesn't care about casual fans or extra content, so why are you even arguing with me? It's like you agree with me, but don't want to knock your precious Street Fighter.
System Shock wasn't made for competitive players, but it is still a FPS. The same is true of Smash. It's not a competitive fighting game, but it is still very much a fighting game.
It's not a Strawman when my entire point is how Capcom is ignoring casual fans. In fact, I have no idea what your point is beside "Screw Casuals" which basically proves my point. It's a video game, the point is to be FUN. Shooting games are about shooting, and making sure said shooting fun, not boosting your ego by beating others, the same is true of fighting. fun is subjective, the amount of content is not, and Capcom's recent fighting games are severely lacking in that department , especially compared to their contemporaries.
@Krackatoa
1st of all, don't believe all the corporate propaganda you read, companies lie and distort the truth to seem honest and reliable, and by this point we should all know Capcom has a very tenuous grasp on the truth.
2nd, you don't really buy that budget stuff do you? Games like BB or even Arcana Heart and Battle Fantasia have more content than SF, and on a substantially lower budget.
Besides, you basically admitted Capcom doesn't care about casual fans or extra content, so why are you even arguing with me? It's like you agree with me, but don't want to knock your precious Street Fighter.
System Shock wasn't made for competitive players, but it is still a FPS. The same is true of Smash. It's not a competitive fighting game, but it is still very much a fighting game.
@spman2099
Tekken 5 sold about the same if not more than core SF4, and Tekken 6 didn't do to bad either.
So quality of the extra content aside, the games still sell.
You could argue quality over quantity, but I found Tekken 6 to be just as good as 4 in the gameplay, so the extra content is what makes Tekken 6 the better game for me.
Tekken 5 sold about the same if not more than core SF4, and Tekken 6 didn't do to bad either.
So quality of the extra content aside, the games still sell.
You could argue quality over quantity, but I found Tekken 6 to be just as good as 4 in the gameplay, so the extra content is what makes Tekken 6 the better game for me.
@ Laharl:
You are not looking at the bigger picture. Forget the modes, proof that the games were created with a much stronger focus on 'casuals' is right there in how they operate.
- Cinematic 'ultras'.
- Reversal windows large enough to drive a truck through.
- Input shortcuts.
- The combo mechanics being changed completely for the first time in SF's history (most combos start at a chain, then go to a link, THEN go to a cancel that leads to a special).
- SF4's entire intial roster was created with the thought of bringing back those 'casuals' who enjoyed playing SF2 in their youth.
- Knee jerk patching to Sent in MvC3.
- The combo mechanics in MvC3 are child's play compared to the executional lunacy that was required of you in MvC2.
- X-FACTOR.
- Magic pixels.
The games were created with the casual gamer first and foremost. They should have been, there's not a chance in hell they would have made money catering to a 'tourneyf@g' like me. Two thousand people at Evo doesn't equate to the millions they've sold for SF4.
You are not looking at the bigger picture. Forget the modes, proof that the games were created with a much stronger focus on 'casuals' is right there in how they operate.
- Cinematic 'ultras'.
- Reversal windows large enough to drive a truck through.
- Input shortcuts.
- The combo mechanics being changed completely for the first time in SF's history (most combos start at a chain, then go to a link, THEN go to a cancel that leads to a special).
- SF4's entire intial roster was created with the thought of bringing back those 'casuals' who enjoyed playing SF2 in their youth.
- Knee jerk patching to Sent in MvC3.
- The combo mechanics in MvC3 are child's play compared to the executional lunacy that was required of you in MvC2.
- X-FACTOR.
- Magic pixels.
The games were created with the casual gamer first and foremost. They should have been, there's not a chance in hell they would have made money catering to a 'tourneyf@g' like me. Two thousand people at Evo doesn't equate to the millions they've sold for SF4.
Ultras in general are for the casual fans. Your opponent gains a special attack because you were whaling on him/her.
I don't know why you posters are wasting your time with this Laharl character.
I don't know why you posters are wasting your time with this Laharl character.
I totally see how Laharl's argument makes sense... if you don't "get" fighting games.
Capcom games lack fun because it doesn't have lots of modes in addition to versus fights? Dude, the versus fights *are* the fun. That's the whole point.
Fighting games are about fighting your opponent, and getting good at it (as in winning). It's about finding new ways to defeat opponents or strategies you have trouble dealing with. It's about the process of developing your knowledge and skill in the game. That's the fun part. Whether you do it at home with your buddy, or online, or at a tournament, or you do it casually, or hardcore, it's all the same. Versus mode is the whole point of the game.
If you don't like versus mode, then you don't like fighting games. And in that case, you can't really be helped, because the game you want to play isn't really a fighting game.
If you're buying a fighting game in order to play puzzle minigames, or a tacked on "adventure mode"(like Tekken usually has), then your money can be much better spent elsewhere on games that actually are about that kind of gameplay. They'll do it better, and they'll give you more of that kind of content.
Capcom games lack fun because it doesn't have lots of modes in addition to versus fights? Dude, the versus fights *are* the fun. That's the whole point.
Fighting games are about fighting your opponent, and getting good at it (as in winning). It's about finding new ways to defeat opponents or strategies you have trouble dealing with. It's about the process of developing your knowledge and skill in the game. That's the fun part. Whether you do it at home with your buddy, or online, or at a tournament, or you do it casually, or hardcore, it's all the same. Versus mode is the whole point of the game.
If you don't like versus mode, then you don't like fighting games. And in that case, you can't really be helped, because the game you want to play isn't really a fighting game.
If you're buying a fighting game in order to play puzzle minigames, or a tacked on "adventure mode"(like Tekken usually has), then your money can be much better spent elsewhere on games that actually are about that kind of gameplay. They'll do it better, and they'll give you more of that kind of content.
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