surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
http://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/rape-culture-in-gaming/. Just wanted to direct your attention to this well -thought-out article about how the culture kinda already exists in gaming in many ways. The way Lara Croft moans in every other scene in the E3 trailer doesn't really bolster any argument that she's actually empowered. I dunno, this has been a running theme with upcoming games lately.
Also, holy shit Irreversible was hard to watch.
Also, holy shit Irreversible was hard to watch.
Oh boy, I can't wait for the babies to fill up 4 pages of comments complaining about this. waaah waaaaaah they're making Lara weak waaaaah wahhhhh she's supposed to be a badass waaaaaaah waaaaaaah the developers are SICK waaaaaaah waaaaaaaah
I don't know maybe Lara's first adventure throws every danger at her and turns her from a green, frigthened girl into an experienced, tough fighter. Origin stories, folks. This is way more interesting than "hey, yeah... she was always tough because we're lazy"
I don't know maybe Lara's first adventure throws every danger at her and turns her from a green, frigthened girl into an experienced, tough fighter. Origin stories, folks. This is way more interesting than "hey, yeah... she was always tough because we're lazy"
Oh jesus, this again? Every time this pops up on a site I read I die a little inside. Yes, the guy obviously didn't give enough thought to what he said. Lets all just try really hard to ignore stuff like this and let the game stand on its own. Please?
I talked far too much about this on the E3 Podcast, but I hate the idea that every "deep" female character that's strong needs to have had rape and such in the past. It's also happening to Fujiko Mine in the new Lupin III interpretation (I will not use another word for it).
I'm not gonna rant on about it, because I know I can't stop if I start.
I'm not gonna rant on about it, because I know I can't stop if I start.
And I swear the utterly ludicrous uproar over Lara's moans/groans in the trailers has to be the most staggeringly overblown fuss I've ever seen in gaming, and we all know there are a lot to choose from. Yes, she makes noise. I'd make noise too if I were being stabbed, or hunted, or falling from great heights, or scared for my life. People make noise. Ever watched a tennis game? The players aren't out there feigning orgasm to drive up ticket sales, it's just a thing that they do. If you're associating it with sex, that's YOUR PROBLEM. Let it go.
If that's what they want to for that's fine but personally I was hoping for the Batman formula, where a traumatising moment forges a strong and badass characte. Which they could have done using the attempted rape plotline but they are still portraying her as weak.
Kinda reminds me of Blazing Saddles...
Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.
Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.
@flintmech
Tomb Raider: Chronicles was her origin story.
And yes, being potentially raped and put in danger around every fucking corner will absolutely make her a character that want to seek out adventure. That makes so much fucking sense, it's not like she would be scarred for life and stay away from it like any normal human being would.
This Lara can NEVER become the Lara we once had, she can become a new character bearing Lara's name (which is pointless, just name her something else). Guess what, you don't need to make a character weak and scared to make her strong, you canm you know, just show her getting strong.
Was Indiana Jones raped in Young Jones? Nope. Was it still an origin story? Yes,
@Paul Stone
"Lets all just try really hard to ignore stuff like this and let the game stand on its own."
Ehm, isn't this part of the game? Shouldn't this be part of judging in on its own?
Tomb Raider: Chronicles was her origin story.
And yes, being potentially raped and put in danger around every fucking corner will absolutely make her a character that want to seek out adventure. That makes so much fucking sense, it's not like she would be scarred for life and stay away from it like any normal human being would.
This Lara can NEVER become the Lara we once had, she can become a new character bearing Lara's name (which is pointless, just name her something else). Guess what, you don't need to make a character weak and scared to make her strong, you canm you know, just show her getting strong.
Was Indiana Jones raped in Young Jones? Nope. Was it still an origin story? Yes,
@Paul Stone
"Lets all just try really hard to ignore stuff like this and let the game stand on its own."
Ehm, isn't this part of the game? Shouldn't this be part of judging in on its own?
Eh. Good on 'em, so long as it's treated seriously and sincerely. I'm not saying I think it's great that Lara is sexually assulted, but it's good that developers are willing to put these sorts of things in games, that it's no longer one of those "oh it's just video games for kiddies, how dare they mention these things"... thing. English I fail today.
Also, it is actually good to mention these things to players before purchase. Triggers are a horrible thing, especially rape triggers. Look 'em up. This is why the Swedish TGWTDT did advertise heavily throughout Europe that it contained content that many people, especially victims of abuse, could find incredibly distressing.
Also, it is actually good to mention these things to players before purchase. Triggers are a horrible thing, especially rape triggers. Look 'em up. This is why the Swedish TGWTDT did advertise heavily throughout Europe that it contained content that many people, especially victims of abuse, could find incredibly distressing.
@Sir Tobbii
From what I've seen, these comments from Ron Rosenberg have actually been creating a much bigger sh*tstorm than any of the actual game content has. It's the comments I was suggesting we should ignore, not any part of the game itself.
From what I've seen, these comments from Ron Rosenberg have actually been creating a much bigger sh*tstorm than any of the actual game content has. It's the comments I was suggesting we should ignore, not any part of the game itself.
@Sir Tobbii
One of your arguments there is one I've seen raised almost everywhere this issue is being discussed - that you don't NEED to do these things to a character to make them tough. You're right of course, there is no NEED, but then there's no NEED to make any event happen to any character in anything. The writers have a story they want to tell, and they'll tell it. All that's left for us is to play the game and decide for ourselves where they went right and where they went wrong.
If we start suggesting that you shouldn't do something to a character unless it 'needs' to happen, writers will end up taking less creative risks rather than more, which doesn't sound like a good direction to go IMO.
One of your arguments there is one I've seen raised almost everywhere this issue is being discussed - that you don't NEED to do these things to a character to make them tough. You're right of course, there is no NEED, but then there's no NEED to make any event happen to any character in anything. The writers have a story they want to tell, and they'll tell it. All that's left for us is to play the game and decide for ourselves where they went right and where they went wrong.
If we start suggesting that you shouldn't do something to a character unless it 'needs' to happen, writers will end up taking less creative risks rather than more, which doesn't sound like a good direction to go IMO.
Typical of this industry too that the first one to be threatened with rape is the sexiest character in gaming history.
@Paul
"Lets all just try really hard to ignore stuff like this and let the game stand on its own."
I dunno, man... Just like I can understand consumers not wanting to support products created by people that they morally oppose (Orson Scott Card and Shadow Complex, for example), I can understand people being VERY turned off of Tomb Raider because of stuff like this.
Am I wrong to assume that you're a heterosexual male, Paul? Well, I'm going to assume so anyway, haha... Because you are a heterosexual male, you might not understand certain aspects of sexism that aren't completely over-the-top in your face (Like... DoA Beach Volleyball). I'm not saying you're an idiot for not understanding, but you can't dismiss other people getting upset about stuff like this. You don't understand because this stuff will never happen to you. At least respect other people's rights to feel that a product that COULD have been an empowering reboot to a female character has been reduced to another misogynistic game with a heavy Male Gaze on it.
Yah?
"Lets all just try really hard to ignore stuff like this and let the game stand on its own."
I dunno, man... Just like I can understand consumers not wanting to support products created by people that they morally oppose (Orson Scott Card and Shadow Complex, for example), I can understand people being VERY turned off of Tomb Raider because of stuff like this.
Am I wrong to assume that you're a heterosexual male, Paul? Well, I'm going to assume so anyway, haha... Because you are a heterosexual male, you might not understand certain aspects of sexism that aren't completely over-the-top in your face (Like... DoA Beach Volleyball). I'm not saying you're an idiot for not understanding, but you can't dismiss other people getting upset about stuff like this. You don't understand because this stuff will never happen to you. At least respect other people's rights to feel that a product that COULD have been an empowering reboot to a female character has been reduced to another misogynistic game with a heavy Male Gaze on it.
Yah?
Chances of this actually getting treated seriously, competently and with the respect it deserves? Yeah I'd say about 0.
I mean, it's one thing that they're saying it like they are just out of the blue - very effectively stating that they haven't the foggiest about the actual psychological ramifications of rape - but the original Kotaku piece also reveals an f-load of negative.
Like how the designers don't think the audience will be capable of relating to Lara so instead we should feel like we're accompanying her, helping her and protecting her from the big bad people who wants to rape her.
Sounds pretty much to me like they don't know how to write female characters and are just buying into the movie-claptrap that "attempted rape makes better female characters!"
I mean, it's one thing that they're saying it like they are just out of the blue - very effectively stating that they haven't the foggiest about the actual psychological ramifications of rape - but the original Kotaku piece also reveals an f-load of negative.
Like how the designers don't think the audience will be capable of relating to Lara so instead we should feel like we're accompanying her, helping her and protecting her from the big bad people who wants to rape her.
Sounds pretty much to me like they don't know how to write female characters and are just buying into the movie-claptrap that "attempted rape makes better female characters!"
I honestly find it disgusting that they're using rape to show that Lara's 'been through some stuff, so now she's a badass', and (at least at face value judging by the above quotes) don't seem to be treating it as an opportunity to make a point about violence against women.
If they had any idea what that sort of malevolence does to a person and how it affects their entire life, I would hope that they would rethink playing it as just another link in her hardcore chain. The very idea of this makes me sad.
If they had any idea what that sort of malevolence does to a person and how it affects their entire life, I would hope that they would rethink playing it as just another link in her hardcore chain. The very idea of this makes me sad.
I hate rape in stories because of how poorly it's done. IF they can pull it off well and portray the gravity and seriousness of the act then go for it, but nothing about Crystal Dynamics leads me to believe they have that ability. I was really interested in Tomb Raider before this news, I liked the idea of turning Lara into a badass but if they're going to rely on tired tropes like rape then they have a hell of a lot to prove.
The rape threat is a realistic one in the situation she finds herself in. A bad man looking to kill a woman would also be likely to sexually assault her, were he in a position to do so.
This is England tv series also depicted it with sickeningly and harrrowingly and, well, pulled it off as you say.
Videogames?? Nah.
The fact that Ron has excitedly announced it as a feature tells you all you need to know. It's already being treated with no sense of class or sensitivity whatsoever. Lara is being "literally turned into a cornered animal."
Ron, you sound like a prize dickhead.
Videogames?? Nah.
The fact that Ron has excitedly announced it as a feature tells you all you need to know. It's already being treated with no sense of class or sensitivity whatsoever. Lara is being "literally turned into a cornered animal."
Ron, you sound like a prize dickhead.
If videogames are to be taken seriously, they need to tackle serious issues. Violence(every game ever), racism(gears of cole train), and yes, rape. I'm getting sick of this overly politically correct culture we're living in now where this is actually 'newsworthy' enough to post about.
I had seriously hoped, after E3, that the bloggers got their jollies by mentioning Lara's moaning ad nausem, and would shut the fuck up about it before it became an 'issue' by the non-gamers getting wind of it as if it was a rancid shit-fart. HURR DURR VIDEOGAEMZ R JUST GAEMZ, NO RAEP IN DEM PLZ
To everyone who thinks this is an actual issue: Please take a look outside the bubble you live in and think about the actual men, women and children being abducted, raped and killed in real life and don't fucking bitch and moan over the subject being tackled in a fucking digital, pixelated form of entertainment. Also, please die in a fire. This entire discussion is, by all means;
#WORSEthanAIDS
I had seriously hoped, after E3, that the bloggers got their jollies by mentioning Lara's moaning ad nausem, and would shut the fuck up about it before it became an 'issue' by the non-gamers getting wind of it as if it was a rancid shit-fart. HURR DURR VIDEOGAEMZ R JUST GAEMZ, NO RAEP IN DEM PLZ
To everyone who thinks this is an actual issue: Please take a look outside the bubble you live in and think about the actual men, women and children being abducted, raped and killed in real life and don't fucking bitch and moan over the subject being tackled in a fucking digital, pixelated form of entertainment. Also, please die in a fire. This entire discussion is, by all means;
#WORSEthanAIDS
I think it is pointless to speculate about the subject matter currently. We don't know what is going on in the writers' minds. People get touchy over the rape subject material in movies and novels anyway, and yes, the moment you put it into a game, its always taboo, just like sexual content. That obviously won't change judging by the current comments in this thread right now.
I can't say I have high hopes with the phrases Rosenburg is using.
I can't say I have high hopes with the phrases Rosenburg is using.
@Euthanasian
If people are bothered by the content of the game, that's totally fine. I can imagine that anyone affected by rape (even if it didn't involve them personally) might find the idea of it being in a game, in any context, horrific, and that's fine. I've not played the game, so I can't yet comment on the content. By default I'm not against it's inclusion, because I think creators should get to do what they want, and we as consumers choose what we'd like to support. That's just me.
My issue is more with the ever increasing tendency of people to find a poorly-worded or ambiguous comment by a marketing person and turn it into a full-on media sh*tstorm.
If people are bothered by the content of the game, that's totally fine. I can imagine that anyone affected by rape (even if it didn't involve them personally) might find the idea of it being in a game, in any context, horrific, and that's fine. I've not played the game, so I can't yet comment on the content. By default I'm not against it's inclusion, because I think creators should get to do what they want, and we as consumers choose what we'd like to support. That's just me.
My issue is more with the ever increasing tendency of people to find a poorly-worded or ambiguous comment by a marketing person and turn it into a full-on media sh*tstorm.
and to a blind man, Uncharted sounds like gay porn... with gun. I'm sick of people (both male and female) making such a big deal because a woman actually moans when she's in undue distress. Why can't it be what it is, instead of poking and hoping the Bee's Nest is full? The amount of self-induced feminist paranoia lately has been overpowering. Absolutely ridiculous.
Not sure if want... Even if it were done well it would still be a horrible, sickening, gut churning part of the game. If not done well it can range from tacky to sickening anyway. But considering they are announcing it as some sort of fucked up marketing ploy I really doubt its gonna be done well.
And yeah, I have seen some of the most fucked up shit on line and even I had to turn Irreversible off for a while. That and fucking A Serbian Film.
And yeah, I have seen some of the most fucked up shit on line and even I had to turn Irreversible off for a while. That and fucking A Serbian Film.
If I have to mash x repeatedly to escape rape, there's no way I'm playing this game.
I don't find that, however, to be the biggest failing in the interview. By saying "you'll want to protect her", he's essentially looking at her as weak and dependent on the player, and not strong in her own right. If that's the mentality they're taking with the new Lara, count me out. I don't want to feel like I want protect her. I want to feel like I get to control a capable badass.
I don't find that, however, to be the biggest failing in the interview. By saying "you'll want to protect her", he's essentially looking at her as weak and dependent on the player, and not strong in her own right. If that's the mentality they're taking with the new Lara, count me out. I don't want to feel like I want protect her. I want to feel like I get to control a capable badass.
@Rammstein
How is a man or woman that is passionate about bettering the gaming community that they work/participate/live/care for a bad thing? Why should they stop? Why should they continue to keep the gaming community a hostile one for their sisters/daughters/aunts/mothers?
Because racism in digital entertainment is no big deal that is never discussed either, right?... How is this ANY different?
How is a man or woman that is passionate about bettering the gaming community that they work/participate/live/care for a bad thing? Why should they stop? Why should they continue to keep the gaming community a hostile one for their sisters/daughters/aunts/mothers?
Because racism in digital entertainment is no big deal that is never discussed either, right?... How is this ANY different?
@Rammstein
I agree that we shouldn't be against games approaching subjects like this, the problem is how piss poorly it is done 99.999999999999% of the time. If a developer can pull off a rape scene well in a game instead of simply using it as some tired "we'll make the character feel more like a victim/cheap way to make them get strong without having to actually think of a good plot" is what we see far too often. A serious issue should be taken seriously in any medium that attempts to use it. The way the producer is presenting the issue in this interview does not give any reason to believe they're going to do it well.
I agree that we shouldn't be against games approaching subjects like this, the problem is how piss poorly it is done 99.999999999999% of the time. If a developer can pull off a rape scene well in a game instead of simply using it as some tired "we'll make the character feel more like a victim/cheap way to make them get strong without having to actually think of a good plot" is what we see far too often. A serious issue should be taken seriously in any medium that attempts to use it. The way the producer is presenting the issue in this interview does not give any reason to believe they're going to do it well.
@Paul
Ah, ok I can agree with you on that end, then. I can understand you wanting to wait on things to see if it was done well before condemning it. I really want to do the same, considering I've wanted a good, relatable Lara for a really long time... but what Ron's been saying has me feeling "worried" to say the least. He REALLY didn't do himself any favors by saying the stuff that he did.
Ah, ok I can agree with you on that end, then. I can understand you wanting to wait on things to see if it was done well before condemning it. I really want to do the same, considering I've wanted a good, relatable Lara for a really long time... but what Ron's been saying has me feeling "worried" to say the least. He REALLY didn't do himself any favors by saying the stuff that he did.
Rape ruins entire lives - and can be depicted in films, books etc properly - but in Tomb Raider you'll no doubt be up and about and shooting a tiger in the face five minutes later like nothing has happened, so let's please just not go there.
The headline in this article says "try to rape". No one is saying she actually GETS raped. I've seen women in games almost get raped all the time.
But then the heroic MAN comes in and saves the day!
But then the heroic MAN comes in and saves the day!
@Euthanasian: My answer to you would be the same no matter what medium we were discussing. See:
Because this is books. Not real life.
Because this is movies. Not real life.
Because this is music. Not real life.
Because this is videogames. Not real life.
If you want to "BETTER THE INDUSTRY"(hurr durr) make your own fucking videogames. Oh, wait, what's that? You suck ass and can't make videogames? Allow me to unzip so you can suck it up. Your pride, that is, because you're just grandstanding. STFUAJPG.
A fuckton of people just died in REAL LIFE as I typed this. JUST NOW. Want something to get mad about? How about you change the world, where things actually matter, instead of videogames, where NOTHING matters?
Because this is books. Not real life.
Because this is movies. Not real life.
Because this is music. Not real life.
Because this is videogames. Not real life.
If you want to "BETTER THE INDUSTRY"(hurr durr) make your own fucking videogames. Oh, wait, what's that? You suck ass and can't make videogames? Allow me to unzip so you can suck it up. Your pride, that is, because you're just grandstanding. STFUAJPG.
A fuckton of people just died in REAL LIFE as I typed this. JUST NOW. Want something to get mad about? How about you change the world, where things actually matter, instead of videogames, where NOTHING matters?
@Euthanasian
Totally. The people marketing this game should know how sensitive an issue it is they're dealing with, and any addressing of it with the media should be very carefully considered. From what I've seen of the game they're not sensationalizing the issue, yet what you hear in the press and gamer chit-chat is a different story.
Totally. The people marketing this game should know how sensitive an issue it is they're dealing with, and any addressing of it with the media should be very carefully considered. From what I've seen of the game they're not sensationalizing the issue, yet what you hear in the press and gamer chit-chat is a different story.
Can you just imagine how damned silly it would have been if they had marketed American History X like this?
"You guys! Ed Norton has a great turning point in this film!"
"You guys! Ed Norton has a great turning point in this film!"
@JayCee: I've made my point/said my peace. I will discuss this no further as it will probably get me banned because I cannot fathom that there exists on this planet, people who think that videogames are more important than real life and my brain is full of fuck when I try to imagine that scenario.
Inb4 300 comments!
Inb4 300 comments!
Just play the game and then judge.
Sensationalist stories like this are why no developers talk without a script. Gotcha journalism. You got him. Way to go buddy. Speaking of treating things with respect ...
Sensationalist stories like this are why no developers talk without a script. Gotcha journalism. You got him. Way to go buddy. Speaking of treating things with respect ...
@Rammstein
I have no idea what I've said that set you off like that, but I can see that I'm not dealing with a normal, rational person...
Yes, real issues. If you aren't cultured enough to realize that BOOKS, MOVIES and GAMES influence people, I don't even know where to begin...
Go watch Birth of a Nation and see how far people have come since then. Media is reflective of our current culture, and some people feel that gaming is lagging behind. WHY are you so upset about people having a stance on this?
I have no idea what I've said that set you off like that, but I can see that I'm not dealing with a normal, rational person...
Yes, real issues. If you aren't cultured enough to realize that BOOKS, MOVIES and GAMES influence people, I don't even know where to begin...
Go watch Birth of a Nation and see how far people have come since then. Media is reflective of our current culture, and some people feel that gaming is lagging behind. WHY are you so upset about people having a stance on this?
follow
