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Pitiful response from the ELSPA. How does the banning of Manhunt 2 prove anything? Yet again, statements are made without ANY real examples to back them up, they're just supposed to be taken with a huge deal of faith and not question it.
Where is this proof of an effective system? It proves the system is INeffective, because it's made people want to import the game which is illegal, hence the only thing the BBFC's decision did is INCREASE the crime rate, not decrease it.
See? I back up my statements with a real explanation. This hypocrite needs to do the same.
Where is this proof of an effective system? It proves the system is INeffective, because it's made people want to import the game which is illegal, hence the only thing the BBFC's decision did is INCREASE the crime rate, not decrease it.
See? I back up my statements with a real explanation. This hypocrite needs to do the same.
Exactly my point Jim. All the ELSPA statement proves is how ineffective Britain's games industry guardian can be in looking after those it supposedly stands for.
And the BBFC's decision is counter-productive. They know full well that controversy causes sales, as must ELSPA.
What I really love about this whole mess though, is that a BBFC study a while back admitted exactly that, as well as debunking the entire "games as a negative influence" argument. Check it out at http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24250.
That report rounds off with the statement from the report that the first Manhunt was a very good and moral game, and that it's a shame that the games industry didn't stand up for it. Let's not let that happen this time shall we?
And the BBFC's decision is counter-productive. They know full well that controversy causes sales, as must ELSPA.
What I really love about this whole mess though, is that a BBFC study a while back admitted exactly that, as well as debunking the entire "games as a negative influence" argument. Check it out at http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24250.
That report rounds off with the statement from the report that the first Manhunt was a very good and moral game, and that it's a shame that the games industry didn't stand up for it. Let's not let that happen this time shall we?
Goddamn i love Dtoid.
It's articles like this that make me glad we can have serious debates AND have a lugh at the same time.
This response from the ELSPA is laughable.
In fact, this whole situation is laughable. There should be no distinction between any form of media whatsoever.
It's a joke.
Loving the coverage of this situation though guys, keep it coming.
It's articles like this that make me glad we can have serious debates AND have a lugh at the same time.
This response from the ELSPA is laughable.
In fact, this whole situation is laughable. There should be no distinction between any form of media whatsoever.
It's a joke.
Loving the coverage of this situation though guys, keep it coming.
If you think about it they have two choices...
1. delay the release to get a m rating and fix it
2. leave it as is and sell the AO and later release a special release
1. delay the release to get a m rating and fix it
2. leave it as is and sell the AO and later release a special release
Wow ELSPA, great way to claim that 70% of games are for ages 3 and up. Because, you know, when you want people to take your medium seriously, there's no better way than to get them to associate it with children.
@ BlueWolf72: This is the UK they're talking about. They're not getting the game at all. The US just has to deal with limited availability if it's rated AO.
Between surrendering to terrorist, running childporn rings, and banning games, Britain’s really sliding down the old crapper.
There was a ban? Man, I really need to get back to a desk job where I can lurk on Dtoid all day. I'm lagging behind in the news department....
Actually, this proves how much of complete failures they are and that their rating system sucks. It’s their job to put a rating on everything, not bail out on something they find offensive and say “Well, we’re not going to rate this, so it’s banned.” Bunch of pussies, if doesn’t fit in with their current ratings then make a new one to slap on it that’s more “extreme”. It’s pathetic that they can decide that grown up can’t even play the game.
I'm going to try to get in touch with them tomorrow and put this to them. I'll try to get a reaction from the BBFC in light of their report vindicating violent games too. Wish me luck.
Has Germany weighed in on the game yet? Or Australia?
I think as a manner of protest Rockstar should replace all the human models with robots, make the blood brown/black and release it in the UK as Probohunt 2.
In other news, I'm looking forward to Hero Gaiden DS.
I think as a manner of protest Rockstar should replace all the human models with robots, make the blood brown/black and release it in the UK as Probohunt 2.
In other news, I'm looking forward to Hero Gaiden DS.
"is akin to handing over its lunch money to the school bully and admitting it was wrong to try to keep it"
What a good comparison.
What a good comparison.
you go dave, beat these cheap mary whitehouse types into a bloody mess! we're behind you all the way!
Great article - and I'm interested that the wording of the BBFC's statement came up - because that could be important to what happens next. As David says, the wording of the their explanation is such that they are ultimately saying "we have to ban this game because the terms of the Video Recordings Act states that this kind of thing can cause adults and children to do harm to one another." In other words - we cannot trust grown adults to behave responsibly, and we don't think our ratings system works well enough to protect children. Worse still - they appear to be saying that if they released the game and somebody played it and then stabs a granny, the killer could justifiably claim to have been influenced by the game! This situation is seeming increasingly surreal to me.
I want to know more about this Video Recordings Act - why they cited that and not the ELSPA guidelines. There's something fishy here - the BBFC know they've got a weak case for banning the game, which is why the news was released along with some heavily emotive stuff about Jamie Bulger appearing in Law and Order.
And to think they gave a rating to Hostel 2 without so much as a nip or a tuck.
I want to know more about this Video Recordings Act - why they cited that and not the ELSPA guidelines. There's something fishy here - the BBFC know they've got a weak case for banning the game, which is why the news was released along with some heavily emotive stuff about Jamie Bulger appearing in Law and Order.
And to think they gave a rating to Hostel 2 without so much as a nip or a tuck.
Despite what the BBFC has said, this whole situation is getting weird. I think some politicking's been involved somewhere.
I have no problem with them taking a stand against a game that espouses such anti-social tendencies in such a sadistic fashion. They're doing their job. Freedom of expression doesn't come without limits of responsibility.
i just read over on kotaku that Manhunt 2 won't ship on the Wii if it's rated AO because Nintendo won't allow it.
Sorry if someone already mentioned it, i didnt read all the comments and just wanted to post it fast
Sorry if someone already mentioned it, i didnt read all the comments and just wanted to post it fast
Good luck, David. I truly hope that we can make some sort of progress on this fiasco. The whole situation makes me ill.
@Corncobtacular
This is so absurd. Is this game THAT much worse than the first one? I fail to see how a sequel that is most likely more of the same (a good thing!), just with enhanced graphics, can deserve this much hate.
That's like saying the Empire Strikes Back should be banned because it took everything good from the original and improved on it, without any really drastic changes. Absolutely absurd.
This is so absurd. Is this game THAT much worse than the first one? I fail to see how a sequel that is most likely more of the same (a good thing!), just with enhanced graphics, can deserve this much hate.
That's like saying the Empire Strikes Back should be banned because it took everything good from the original and improved on it, without any really drastic changes. Absolutely absurd.
Again I'm repating what I've already repeated, but people seem to be going round in circles which is why organisations like the BBFC can do this kind of thing.
So here's a guide to exposing the illogical BBFC decision:
1. Do not get into a dialogue with the BBFC, it will lead nowhere, no progress will be made and you simply cannot win, opinions of gamers have absolutley no weight, they know this and will quite happily have a discussion of opinions because they know that opinions will change nothing no matter how passionate or numerous they are.
2. Do not point out where the BBFC is wrong or why they are wrong, this agian is just a debate of opinions. Opinion debates are what the BBFC is hoping for, it is their forcefield around their Deathstar, opinion debates are inpenetrable and pointless against large organisations.
3. Do organize a research method, gather as much info on the subject of violence in other forms of digital entertainment.
4. Do gather as much scientific evidence as possible, since science is on our side in this case, we can really go to town here. How does simulated vioelnce in a game emtionally and psychologically register in comparison to simulated violence in other forms of digital media? Studies show that games cannot compete with films when it comes to the emotional and psychological affect of simulated violence, basically, a violent film watched by an 18 year old provides many more emotional and psychological problems than a person in their mid twenties playing Manhunt 2. The human mind still doesn't recognize videogame characters as complex human beings nor does it empathize with game characters in the way that it does with characters in film or in TV soaps. Psycologically and emotionally a gamer is always aware that a game is a game, they may be immersed in the experience, but that experience remains fictional whereas film and TV can step over the fictional line in people's minds.
The scientific evidence based response to the BBFC is the only way forward, I keep on repeating this because I can feel this moment slipping away and becoming yet another opinions debate which we can't win. Also, if we take the scientific direction we raise this problem to a higher level and involve serious thinkers instead of recationary monkey's with no reason to their thought process, we raise the problem and expose this problem to the intelligent people out there who will 100% prove that this BBFC slap in the face to evolution is ridiculous.
So here's a guide to exposing the illogical BBFC decision:
1. Do not get into a dialogue with the BBFC, it will lead nowhere, no progress will be made and you simply cannot win, opinions of gamers have absolutley no weight, they know this and will quite happily have a discussion of opinions because they know that opinions will change nothing no matter how passionate or numerous they are.
2. Do not point out where the BBFC is wrong or why they are wrong, this agian is just a debate of opinions. Opinion debates are what the BBFC is hoping for, it is their forcefield around their Deathstar, opinion debates are inpenetrable and pointless against large organisations.
3. Do organize a research method, gather as much info on the subject of violence in other forms of digital entertainment.
4. Do gather as much scientific evidence as possible, since science is on our side in this case, we can really go to town here. How does simulated vioelnce in a game emtionally and psychologically register in comparison to simulated violence in other forms of digital media? Studies show that games cannot compete with films when it comes to the emotional and psychological affect of simulated violence, basically, a violent film watched by an 18 year old provides many more emotional and psychological problems than a person in their mid twenties playing Manhunt 2. The human mind still doesn't recognize videogame characters as complex human beings nor does it empathize with game characters in the way that it does with characters in film or in TV soaps. Psycologically and emotionally a gamer is always aware that a game is a game, they may be immersed in the experience, but that experience remains fictional whereas film and TV can step over the fictional line in people's minds.
The scientific evidence based response to the BBFC is the only way forward, I keep on repeating this because I can feel this moment slipping away and becoming yet another opinions debate which we can't win. Also, if we take the scientific direction we raise this problem to a higher level and involve serious thinkers instead of recationary monkey's with no reason to their thought process, we raise the problem and expose this problem to the intelligent people out there who will 100% prove that this BBFC slap in the face to evolution is ridiculous.
I guess i didn't realize that this was a sly way for the ESRB to effectively ban Manhunt 2 in the US.
Zardoz, I keep saying, this stuff is just the tip of the iceberg of what we're going to be doing. Trust us, we ARE listening to what you're saying, and we ARE making plans about taking this further, as we've advertised several times.
All i'm hearing...
Dear Rockstar,
We think the BBFC is right to ban the game you have spent a lot of time, effort and millions of dollars to make. So screw you.
-ESLA
PS- Just a reminder, your costly membership fees are due at the end of the month. These fees allow us to provide you great service and help you when you need us most.
bleh...
Dear Rockstar,
We think the BBFC is right to ban the game you have spent a lot of time, effort and millions of dollars to make. So screw you.
-ESLA
PS- Just a reminder, your costly membership fees are due at the end of the month. These fees allow us to provide you great service and help you when you need us most.
bleh...
Ugh. This just keeps getting WORSE... now Ireland is joining the ban-hammer squad.
" MANHUNT 2 VIDEO GAME PROHIBITED
A prohibition order has been made by IFCO in relation to the video game Manhunt 2. The Order was made on 18th June 2007 under Sec 7 (1) (b) of the Video Recordings Act 1989 which refers to ‘acts of gross violence or cruelty (including mutilation and torture)’.
IFCO recognizes that in certain films, DVDs and video games, strong graphic violence may be a justifiable element within the overall context of the work. However, in the case of Manhunt 2, IFCO believes that there is no such context, and the level of gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence is unacceptable. "
Via IFCO
" MANHUNT 2 VIDEO GAME PROHIBITED
A prohibition order has been made by IFCO in relation to the video game Manhunt 2. The Order was made on 18th June 2007 under Sec 7 (1) (b) of the Video Recordings Act 1989 which refers to ‘acts of gross violence or cruelty (including mutilation and torture)’.
IFCO recognizes that in certain films, DVDs and video games, strong graphic violence may be a justifiable element within the overall context of the work. However, in the case of Manhunt 2, IFCO believes that there is no such context, and the level of gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence is unacceptable. "
Via IFCO
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172830.html
Sony, Nintendo forbid AO-rated Manhunt 2
Console-makers confirm policies preventing licensed third parties from releasing Adults Only games on their systems, effectively banning the Rockstar title.
Sony, Nintendo forbid AO-rated Manhunt 2
Console-makers confirm policies preventing licensed third parties from releasing Adults Only games on their systems, effectively banning the Rockstar title.
Zardoz has the right idea.
Though I have to say, I think I'm in the camp of the ELSPA on this one. See my comment in the Sterling article for details on that, rather than igniting the flames here as well.
Though I have to say, I think I'm in the camp of the ELSPA on this one. See my comment in the Sterling article for details on that, rather than igniting the flames here as well.
<img src="http://img58.exs.cx/img58/9810/manhunt1.jpg" />
...more to do with the last title but still relevant...
...more to do with the last title but still relevant...
Where was the uproar over Red Steel? Didn't the player make violent actions with the Wiimote to kill fake people in that game, as well?
When you kill fake people by pulling a trigger control on a gamepad, do they not still die the same fake death that they would under a different control scheme?
Is this just the government trying to tell us it is ok to kill fake people if you don't have to wiggle your hand to do so?
I think it is.
From now on, I am going to physically jump when I smash the fake life out of a goomba in SMB.
I will await the authorities confiscating my ability to defy gravity for short periods of time henceforth.
When you kill fake people by pulling a trigger control on a gamepad, do they not still die the same fake death that they would under a different control scheme?
Is this just the government trying to tell us it is ok to kill fake people if you don't have to wiggle your hand to do so?
I think it is.
From now on, I am going to physically jump when I smash the fake life out of a goomba in SMB.
I will await the authorities confiscating my ability to defy gravity for short periods of time henceforth.
anyone who can take my wonderful childhood memories of the commodore 64 and combine them with my liking to manhunt gets a win from me. [:
It always strikes me as strange that books are not subject to ratings. if any of you have read American Psycho you'll know exactly what I mean. ANYONE can buy this book, but it is clearly as dark and sadistic as any RockStar game.
Houghton, I think you might be missing the point concentrating solely on digital media - I think you need to include ALL media.
Houghton, I think you might be missing the point concentrating solely on digital media - I think you need to include ALL media.
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