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i am very interested in an upgrade/xp system like they are showing in paper mario where the game wants me to "do" something to be stronger rather than stomp enemies over and over again. the game looks awesome!
Worried at the lack of Bowser, was hoping he would be playable again. He's the true star of the series :(
Sure, i'll give it a go. I'm sure some snivelling cunts will bitch about it not being "just like the other RPGS" like they did with Super Paper Mario, but considering that this is Mario made out of fucking paper i'm fine with innovation.
They talked about A town? Not multiple ones then?
I want more details on this, the sticker thing is intriguing but I don't trust Nintendo that much anymore.
I want more details on this, the sticker thing is intriguing but I don't trust Nintendo that much anymore.
I'm with you on that. I'm not very confident this game will be as good as it's predecessors. It has no reason not to, though, as the original Paper Mario was on a N64.
Kersti looks like a Tippi-type thing.
But if they forego partners I'll probably skip until I can find it cheaper used. Considering they make up a bulk of the cast and can make conversations more than Mario shaking his head and holding up his fist, it seems like the game would lose a lot of personality without them.
But if they forego partners I'll probably skip until I can find it cheaper used. Considering they make up a bulk of the cast and can make conversations more than Mario shaking his head and holding up his fist, it seems like the game would lose a lot of personality without them.
agreed, my only worry is the lack of partners, but let's wait and see.
also, "biggest mario fan" was the best joke ever
also, "biggest mario fan" was the best joke ever
Ok lemme start by saying I'm totally buying this and will probably enjoy it.
Now lemme further state this: Fuuuuuuuuuccckkkk. No xp or leveling up? Finding upgrades? No partners? Wtf ninty? Super worried. Doesn't sound to have what I love about this series. Ill always have SMRPG, the first paper Mario's and Mario & Luigi
Now lemme further state this: Fuuuuuuuuuccckkkk. No xp or leveling up? Finding upgrades? No partners? Wtf ninty? Super worried. Doesn't sound to have what I love about this series. Ill always have SMRPG, the first paper Mario's and Mario & Luigi
The leveling up thing reminds me of Zelda. Half the heart containers in those games come from doing sidequests of some sort.
I'd like a return to true RPG elements like SMRPG or the original Paper Mario. Super Paper Mario was kind of meh for me. I was expecting the other.
This is pretty scary. The sticker mechanics are intriguing, but extremely different from the rest of the series. I was really hoping for this game to be a direct successor to the first two games, but it looks like they're taking it in a wild different direction like they did with the Wii game. At least the turn based action command combat is back.
Every time I read about Sticker Star, the lack of clarity on the incentive (if any) to fight regular, non-mandatory foes bugs the shit out of me. They didn't explain it at the 3DS presser yesterday and it's what I want to know the most. Are there ANY consequences for avoiding basically every foe in the game? If not, then... what the fuck? Why make it in the style of the first two games in the first place?
If someone could help me out here I'd appreciate it.
If someone could help me out here I'd appreciate it.
I haven't got a 3DS so won't be buying this, but my only real concern is that the environments seem to be the same ones this series has reused in each of its games. Otherwise, the lack of partners / no EXP approach actually sounds interesting, potentially removing the age old RPG problem of grinding. (On the other hand, it could limit player agency even further by allowing Nintendo to control exactly how powerful you are at any given moment). Mixing up the formula is only a good thing as far as I'd be concerned, Thousand Year Door was good but a bit too similar to the N64 original in many respects, including the very familiar battle partners.
I find it amusing that people love both the Metroid series and the Paper Mario Series; when there are no magical numbers that constitute "EXP" for people to grind in Metroid, people still love the series because finding upgrades is fun. When the same thing happens in Paper Mario all hell breaks loose.
Same people who are already not giving the new Castlevania a chance and who hated FFXIII before playing it just because it didn't play like Dragon Quest 1-7. Gamers are so afraid of change it is ridiculous.
Same people who are already not giving the new Castlevania a chance and who hated FFXIII before playing it just because it didn't play like Dragon Quest 1-7. Gamers are so afraid of change it is ridiculous.
There seems to be at least one partner as shown here http://images.nintendolife.com/screenshots/25357/large.jpg
And other places are saying that there's a Green Toad as your partner too but I haven't seen a picture of that fella.
And other places are saying that there's a Green Toad as your partner too but I haven't seen a picture of that fella.
@ShloopyDoo
That's a really good point actually. Using exploration to find power ups works in Metroid, so what's wrong with it being in Paper Mario?
@Ashley Medrano
It's possible that the chomp is a sticker that's one use only.
That's a really good point actually. Using exploration to find power ups works in Metroid, so what's wrong with it being in Paper Mario?
@Ashley Medrano
It's possible that the chomp is a sticker that's one use only.
Well, Shloopy, seeing as the Metroid series is not an RPG and the Paper Mario series is, there's very little amusing about that observation. It's a false equivalency. Those magical little numbers you mentioned are at the core of most RPG gameplay.
In Metroid games, enemies exist as obstacles, standing in the way of your progress through an area. They're usually not too time-consuming to defeat, and doing so is part and parcel of the platforming process. How well you defeat enemies is based on player skill and, while upgraded equipment can help make this process easier, it's rarely required. Thus, the experience earned from battles in Metroid is tangible. You get better at the techniques required to defeat enemies, thus making enemies easier to defeat.
In Paper Mario, however, enemies (and battles themselves) stand completely separate from the exploration part of the game and exist primarily as a means of strengthening your character through, that's right, experience. Since battles are turn based, stats are very important (although the Paper Mario series does add a bit of skill into the system, it's still heavily reliant on stats). Stronger enemies can be literally impossible to beat if your stats are too low, since no amount of skill can compensate for the number-crunching that goes on under the hood. Experience in this case comes in the form of points, because the only way to get better at defeating enemies is to increase your stats.
Now, from the videos, it looks like battles in PM:SS are carried out similarly to every other Paper Mario game (aka, stat-based). But without experience points, there doesn't seem to be any reward for taking time out of your exploration to battle. If there's no reward for battling, there's no incentive to battle. Now, obviously Nintendo's pretty good at this game-making thing, so there's no reason to doubt they'll give us some reason to battle. But they haven't shown us what that is yet, and until they do, it's a legitimate concern to have.
In Metroid games, enemies exist as obstacles, standing in the way of your progress through an area. They're usually not too time-consuming to defeat, and doing so is part and parcel of the platforming process. How well you defeat enemies is based on player skill and, while upgraded equipment can help make this process easier, it's rarely required. Thus, the experience earned from battles in Metroid is tangible. You get better at the techniques required to defeat enemies, thus making enemies easier to defeat.
In Paper Mario, however, enemies (and battles themselves) stand completely separate from the exploration part of the game and exist primarily as a means of strengthening your character through, that's right, experience. Since battles are turn based, stats are very important (although the Paper Mario series does add a bit of skill into the system, it's still heavily reliant on stats). Stronger enemies can be literally impossible to beat if your stats are too low, since no amount of skill can compensate for the number-crunching that goes on under the hood. Experience in this case comes in the form of points, because the only way to get better at defeating enemies is to increase your stats.
Now, from the videos, it looks like battles in PM:SS are carried out similarly to every other Paper Mario game (aka, stat-based). But without experience points, there doesn't seem to be any reward for taking time out of your exploration to battle. If there's no reward for battling, there's no incentive to battle. Now, obviously Nintendo's pretty good at this game-making thing, so there's no reason to doubt they'll give us some reason to battle. But they haven't shown us what that is yet, and until they do, it's a legitimate concern to have.
@OmnipotentBagel
I'm aware of the differences between Metroid and RPGs, and technically Castlevania is a mixture of both. My main point was that people get so fixated on "this is OFFICIALLY an RPG therefore it must play like X" that they completely turn their nose up to any developer trying to combine ideas from both genres, despite those same people enjoying the same exact gameplay elements when they are separate. Have a little faith that the developers can strike a balance in their game design before you flip out on the internet. Hell, the Paper Mario series in general started as a watered down version of Super Mario RPG for the SNES and even back then people flipped out over how different this new "Paper" series was from the original, and guess what? Everything turned out to be okay and now the Paper series has its own defense force.
I'm aware of the differences between Metroid and RPGs, and technically Castlevania is a mixture of both. My main point was that people get so fixated on "this is OFFICIALLY an RPG therefore it must play like X" that they completely turn their nose up to any developer trying to combine ideas from both genres, despite those same people enjoying the same exact gameplay elements when they are separate. Have a little faith that the developers can strike a balance in their game design before you flip out on the internet. Hell, the Paper Mario series in general started as a watered down version of Super Mario RPG for the SNES and even back then people flipped out over how different this new "Paper" series was from the original, and guess what? Everything turned out to be okay and now the Paper series has its own defense force.
@OmnipotentBagel
As far as I'm concerned your explanation of Metroid's skill vs. RPG XP exposes the flaws in XP based improvement. I don't think RPGs require XP. I use "require" because there is obviously a place in RPGs for XP but the genre can advance beyond the strict application of a universal resource acquired mostly from battles for improving your character. XP essentially limits the player based on how long they've played the game. XP can turn minor battles into chores. Enticing players to engage in battles for reasons other than grinding for xp is already an established practice; enemies can drop special items, you can capture enemies and use them to fight for you, etc. Do RPG players enjoy battling or simply getting xp? Is the entire game an xp delivery system? They can offer more than that and relegating xp to the background or removing it all together would be the most obvious way to bring other aspects of an RPG to the fore.
As far as I'm concerned your explanation of Metroid's skill vs. RPG XP exposes the flaws in XP based improvement. I don't think RPGs require XP. I use "require" because there is obviously a place in RPGs for XP but the genre can advance beyond the strict application of a universal resource acquired mostly from battles for improving your character. XP essentially limits the player based on how long they've played the game. XP can turn minor battles into chores. Enticing players to engage in battles for reasons other than grinding for xp is already an established practice; enemies can drop special items, you can capture enemies and use them to fight for you, etc. Do RPG players enjoy battling or simply getting xp? Is the entire game an xp delivery system? They can offer more than that and relegating xp to the background or removing it all together would be the most obvious way to bring other aspects of an RPG to the fore.
I'm sort of on the fence about this. I never finished Paper Mario, Super Mario RPG, or Bowser's Inside Story, but I finished and loved Super Paper Mario. Anyway, I'm really intrigued actually by the lack of XP from battles - if it means I never have to worry about grinding enemies and instead can level up by doing sidequests and stuff which I love, then that sounds really good to me. I'm still not the biggest fan of turn-based combat, even in the Mario style, but it's not a dealbreaker - least of all if they're changing things up in this way. I'll probably buy the game and hopefully like it. It looks good and charming.
@Shloopy, teakay:
This is a really good discussion to have, I think. You're right--there's no reason RPG's should HAVE to have EXP. I like the idea of finding ways to eschew genre conventions for precisely the kind of thing teakay mentioned. The "XP grind" can absolutely drag down an RPG. It ends up being this big weight on the game, restricting design in some ways--because too much XP and the challenge goes away, but too little and the game becomes a chore, trying to "level".
But like I mentioned earlier, the concern for a lot of us here is what will replace it? I don't think anyone is counting the game out based on the lack of EXP*. We all know Nintendo is really good at making games fun, and when they work at being innovative, they tend to come up with some really interesting ideas. So I trust them to do right by this. But again, how are they going to do it?
That disconnect between battles and exploration is significant in the typical RPG model, and the videos show that that, at least, hasn't changed in this game. So if I'm gaining levels from exploring and completing quests, which is what I'm primarily interested in doing anyway, what's the impetus for me to battle at all? Or, perhaps a more accurate way to look at it is: there's no way I can avoid every single battle. What makes battling worthwhile, so that it's still a fun part of the game and not just an unwelcome interruption of the useful parts of the game? It could be stickers, I suppose, but there's so many of those scattered about the environment (so they say) that it doesn't seem like much of a reward. I'm sure they've got something, I just wish they'd tell us what that is.
This is a really good discussion to have, I think. You're right--there's no reason RPG's should HAVE to have EXP. I like the idea of finding ways to eschew genre conventions for precisely the kind of thing teakay mentioned. The "XP grind" can absolutely drag down an RPG. It ends up being this big weight on the game, restricting design in some ways--because too much XP and the challenge goes away, but too little and the game becomes a chore, trying to "level".
But like I mentioned earlier, the concern for a lot of us here is what will replace it? I don't think anyone is counting the game out based on the lack of EXP*. We all know Nintendo is really good at making games fun, and when they work at being innovative, they tend to come up with some really interesting ideas. So I trust them to do right by this. But again, how are they going to do it?
That disconnect between battles and exploration is significant in the typical RPG model, and the videos show that that, at least, hasn't changed in this game. So if I'm gaining levels from exploring and completing quests, which is what I'm primarily interested in doing anyway, what's the impetus for me to battle at all? Or, perhaps a more accurate way to look at it is: there's no way I can avoid every single battle. What makes battling worthwhile, so that it's still a fun part of the game and not just an unwelcome interruption of the useful parts of the game? It could be stickers, I suppose, but there's so many of those scattered about the environment (so they say) that it doesn't seem like much of a reward. I'm sure they've got something, I just wish they'd tell us what that is.
@OmniBagel
XP is just a means to an end: a stronger character and new abilities. Whatever you do to achieve that end is stepping in to replace XP.
XP is just a means to an end: a stronger character and new abilities. Whatever you do to achieve that end is stepping in to replace XP.
I am concerned as well. I'm sure the game will still be great, but I was hoping for the game to be an epic RPG like Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door.
You guys do realise it will be just like Zelda, right? And those games can last forever, collecting all of the upgrades, heart pieces/containers, bonus/hidden items/abilities, mini-game, etc. it's not like you got any of those before from killing enemies, all you got was xp. Still, I would imagine you get something from having to beat enemies; maybe there are more dungeon-y areas and rooms which require you to defeat all of the enemies to open up the next area or to find an item, maybe even a separate 'level' system that improves something? Who knows, nobody has played it yet, and nobody has seen the menu system, so there's no telling what any of your stats actually are/do.
Also for the missing partners; the gameplay was from a show demo which allowed you to switch between different points in the story, so I guess they also disabled partners as to not spoil the game (as quite a few partners tend to have ties to the story).
Also for the missing partners; the gameplay was from a show demo which allowed you to switch between different points in the story, so I guess they also disabled partners as to not spoil the game (as quite a few partners tend to have ties to the story).
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