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used games have been around for as long as i can remember, and no doubt longer than that in reality.
not sure about on consoles, but don't PC games have extremely long tails these days? perhaps if the industry started putting more focus back onto the platform they would see better returns.
nah what am i saying, they need to blame crappy sales of their dogshit games on something i guess.
not sure about on consoles, but don't PC games have extremely long tails these days? perhaps if the industry started putting more focus back onto the platform they would see better returns.
nah what am i saying, they need to blame crappy sales of their dogshit games on something i guess.
I think having impossibly high budgets and expectations threaten the industry more than used games. In fact those are most likely largely related to why we see so much more bitching about used games now.
So basically he acknowledges how the system used to be and how it is now, but refuses to do anything to adapt? Remind me again how long used games have existed?
"Hey guys, did you know our customers can buy second-hand games now? Doooooomed!"
"Hey guys, did you know our customers can buy second-hand games now? Doooooomed!"
I can't wait for them all to be scratching their heads next console gen when sales are lower but they removed used games. I'll easily be buying at most 1/10 of what I buy now if I can't sell them back for some money to buy more or if there is no way to try them except a demo. It really seems like this is the end of me keeping up with the current console gens especially if the rumor of ps4 not playing ps3 games is true. I'll just stick with my back log and my must have pc games that I don't worry about only buying new, cause their blizzard games and they don't fail at delivering.
I wouldnt blame it on games being terrible. There have been many games coming out that have been great, but failed to sell at all because they didnt spend 100 million dollars on advertising the thing. Not everyone can do that, and heck, even last generation they didnt need to do so.
I truthfully think less new game sales are at least partially less due to the economy. People are scared to spend $60 for a game when they may be struggling to pay rent and utilities, or put gas in their tank since it keeps going up.
But used games are hurting the industry. He makes a couple good points. Back when you rented games, especially longer games (FF, Skyrin, etc) you would play part of the game then more than likely if you liked it, went out and bought a new copy. Rentals were there for a trial, kind of like how demo's are now (unless the game was really short anyways). So they almost guaranteed a sale.
Now, people buy a used game for $40 and the publisher doesnt see a sale from it due to, well, the full game is there for them to own, then trade in later, to get more money to possibly not buy a new game. And the cycle goes on as other people buy said game.
Ive heard the argument that alot of people buy used than trade up to new. I dont think thats accurate. If people are buying used to begin with, more than likely, they will continue to trade in and buy used. Some may not, but I highly doubt it's the norm.
Acting like it will KILL the industry is extreme. But acting like Jim and thinking they have no effect on the industry is also stupid.
I truthfully think less new game sales are at least partially less due to the economy. People are scared to spend $60 for a game when they may be struggling to pay rent and utilities, or put gas in their tank since it keeps going up.
But used games are hurting the industry. He makes a couple good points. Back when you rented games, especially longer games (FF, Skyrin, etc) you would play part of the game then more than likely if you liked it, went out and bought a new copy. Rentals were there for a trial, kind of like how demo's are now (unless the game was really short anyways). So they almost guaranteed a sale.
Now, people buy a used game for $40 and the publisher doesnt see a sale from it due to, well, the full game is there for them to own, then trade in later, to get more money to possibly not buy a new game. And the cycle goes on as other people buy said game.
Ive heard the argument that alot of people buy used than trade up to new. I dont think thats accurate. If people are buying used to begin with, more than likely, they will continue to trade in and buy used. Some may not, but I highly doubt it's the norm.
Acting like it will KILL the industry is extreme. But acting like Jim and thinking they have no effect on the industry is also stupid.
Oh Dennis Dyack. I missed your brand of bombastic bullshit, but Too Human and that shitty X-Men game didn't bomb because of used game sales. They bombed because they were shit to begin with, and not marketed well enough to provide the illusion of the contrary.
You know, for all the "there's not going to be an industry" hyperbole, he actually makes some sort of a point with the recurring revenue thing. Now I don't know if this is actually true, a serious study would be the only way to find that out for sure, but there's at least a semblance of a valid point in here.
If you squint.
If you squint.
Guy in industry: "x is a problem" Journali-- oh wait, blogger: "no it isn't ". Which should I trust more to know about the industry, I'm torn!
I wonder why some games are struggling to sell past 3 months?
You cant tell me that dumbed down, obviously profit driven, half finished, bug ridden products with obtrusive DRM, online passes and DLC which unlocks a new ingame hat which was on the disc anyway when you bought it and all of which publishers force out too early and then don't support with fixes to save costs is having a negative effect on those games long term sales?
Thats probably why Mojang have done so badly........
You cant tell me that dumbed down, obviously profit driven, half finished, bug ridden products with obtrusive DRM, online passes and DLC which unlocks a new ingame hat which was on the disc anyway when you bought it and all of which publishers force out too early and then don't support with fixes to save costs is having a negative effect on those games long term sales?
Thats probably why Mojang have done so badly........
Just a tangent here but I find a problem that only seems to exacerbate the used game issue is a lot of games just simply go out of print.
If I say just now wanted to get into the Gears of War series it is extremely improbable that I could find Gears 1 & 2 new anywhere except via ordering site. Or in a very real sense it was impossible for me to pick up Motorstorm: Apocalypse recently from even Walmart and Target because it only had a limited run in my area. The only option was used. Same again before with Demon's Souls.
Console gaming seems to be heading into a rocky road that PC gaming once drove through but this time the rocks are jagged and no one packed any spare tires.
If I say just now wanted to get into the Gears of War series it is extremely improbable that I could find Gears 1 & 2 new anywhere except via ordering site. Or in a very real sense it was impossible for me to pick up Motorstorm: Apocalypse recently from even Walmart and Target because it only had a limited run in my area. The only option was used. Same again before with Demon's Souls.
Console gaming seems to be heading into a rocky road that PC gaming once drove through but this time the rocks are jagged and no one packed any spare tires.
Used games will go away as soon as they make consoles have a download service like PC and go away from disc based games.
What's whiny about what Dyack said there? It's true.
Used games is the reason we see this much DLC these days, because that's how they're trying to replace the lost sales. It's also the reason we see DLC coming out so close to the release of games, since they got to get the DLC out before people trade the game in.
Defending the used games market right to exist is fine. But pretending that used games doesn't affect developers and publishers negatively is fucking stupid.
Used games is the reason we see this much DLC these days, because that's how they're trying to replace the lost sales. It's also the reason we see DLC coming out so close to the release of games, since they got to get the DLC out before people trade the game in.
Defending the used games market right to exist is fine. But pretending that used games doesn't affect developers and publishers negatively is fucking stupid.
Used games have been around since the NES days and probably sooner. Why are used games killing the industry now and not, say, last generation?
The industry is bigger and makes more money then ever now. Of course, given how crap X-Men Destiny was, it's clear DYack isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier to begin with.
The industry is bigger and makes more money then ever now. Of course, given how crap X-Men Destiny was, it's clear DYack isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier to begin with.
Just picked up a used copy of Condemned for $5, and two days before that, Conker Live and Reloaded for $10. I'm sorry that I like to buy games for not a lot of money.
Fun Fact: I bought Too Human used. If I had bought that new, I don't think I would have been too happy.
Fun Fact: I played GoW1&2 used and bought GoW3 as a result of my enjoyment of the previous two. That is one of many examples of how used games sold me on some new releases.
Fun Fact: I played GoW1&2 used and bought GoW3 as a result of my enjoyment of the previous two. That is one of many examples of how used games sold me on some new releases.
Who is this guy? Should we care about what he has to say? Cry me a river as I go and buy some games used that weren't even worth the initial $60.
Maybe that's a good thing.
The industry is so full of bullshit, I think we need another crash. If buying used games expediates this, then I will continue to do it.
The industry is so full of bullshit, I think we need another crash. If buying used games expediates this, then I will continue to do it.
ZOMG USED GAMES ARE TOTES GONNA DESTROY THE INDUSTRY GUYS!
..... lets see used games have been around as long as the industry has (since back in the early 80s) and the industry is still here...
Maybe if companies put some effort into crafting quality games that stand the tests of time, instead of shilling their customers with flavor of the month games and poor quality annual sequels.
If anything greed and sloth are going to bring the industry down long before the first sales doctrine.
And if he thinks I'm going to buy that bullshit line about used sales making new games cost more..... and that magically if the used market went away somehow pixies would ride rainbow farting unicorns down and slash the prices of some of these stupid overpriced games ..... yeah, NO!
..... lets see used games have been around as long as the industry has (since back in the early 80s) and the industry is still here...
Maybe if companies put some effort into crafting quality games that stand the tests of time, instead of shilling their customers with flavor of the month games and poor quality annual sequels.
If anything greed and sloth are going to bring the industry down long before the first sales doctrine.
And if he thinks I'm going to buy that bullshit line about used sales making new games cost more..... and that magically if the used market went away somehow pixies would ride rainbow farting unicorns down and slash the prices of some of these stupid overpriced games ..... yeah, NO!
This:
"Defending the used games market right to exist is fine. But pretending that used games doesn't affect developers and publishers negatively is fucking stupid."
Agreed, @Fury-Genesis
"Defending the used games market right to exist is fine. But pretending that used games doesn't affect developers and publishers negatively is fucking stupid."
Agreed, @Fury-Genesis
Well if he wants games that sell long after release he should put them on pc and encourage modding, instead of trying to push dlc.
Warcraft didn't sell that long for any other reason than modding and esports.
Warcraft didn't sell that long for any other reason than modding and esports.
It echoes some of the other posts on here, but I would love to see these "industry experts" argue against the idea that people sell/trade-in games to buy more games.
If used games really threatened the industry, then how has the industry expanded all these years? Used games have been around for a while now, Gamestop used to sell used N64 games all the time, stores before them sold used NES games. Every recent generation has had used games, and it wasn't until this one that people suddenly found it was 'destroying the industry.'
No one complained back then because people still bought those games new, because games back then weren't the glitchy, online pass, weekly update, day one DLC fest that they are today. The reason used games are such a big deal now is because many people don't trust developers to deliver a quality experience for the price. Either the game is a mess or the publisher loses faith and drops the price less than a month after launch.
No one complained back then because people still bought those games new, because games back then weren't the glitchy, online pass, weekly update, day one DLC fest that they are today. The reason used games are such a big deal now is because many people don't trust developers to deliver a quality experience for the price. Either the game is a mess or the publisher loses faith and drops the price less than a month after launch.
It's not like used games are some crazy bargain......eliminating them wouldn't be the worst thing ever....most of the time I buy a used copy at gamestop because they don't have a new copy of a title.....usually the difference between new or used in price is $5 or less. So in that sense I think gamestop does exploit used sales.
I'll answer this man's complaint with a question to him and the industry at large:
When did my $60 dollars not become enough for you?
I went to the store, I paid the price listed I the box. I did my part, I didn't pirate it, I didn't buy it used, I did what you said you wanted and how am I treated for being a good little fan and consumer supporting your livelihood and industry?
Day one DLC, likely content stripped from the game. 15 dollar map packs. Bug ridden games, games with poor endings ala borderlands, Deus Ex, and ME3. Being penalized for swearing loyalty by hav
When did my $60 dollars not become enough for you?
I went to the store, I paid the price listed I the box. I did my part, I didn't pirate it, I didn't buy it used, I did what you said you wanted and how am I treated for being a good little fan and consumer supporting your livelihood and industry?
Day one DLC, likely content stripped from the game. 15 dollar map packs. Bug ridden games, games with poor endings ala borderlands, Deus Ex, and ME3. Being penalized for swearing loyalty by hav
Every industry has to deal with used sales from lawn mowers to computers to furniture, yet they all manage. But the video game industry thinks they should somehow be immune to the same "burdens" that everybody else has had to deal with since the dawn of time. The pic of the crying baby is apt.
He does make somewhat of a point. This ''tail'' he speaks was more prevalent than today, but I remember just having a couple of games for my Genesis and my friend having different ones, and we'd just lend each other the games. The quality of games is a factor in my opinion, but not as important as some might think. There are good quality games on shelves for re-sale.
I find video games are like books. Once you've finished it, is there a point in reading it again? Unlike a book, a video game can be updated and supported further down the road. I think a small measure to combat used games and not alienate the consumer would be to provide additional (REAL additional, not on disc unlockables) content. Similar to a book, write new chapters, stretch what happens when the game is done or delve further into a part of backstory.
Make the game so that it may be revisited later with new content!
I find video games are like books. Once you've finished it, is there a point in reading it again? Unlike a book, a video game can be updated and supported further down the road. I think a small measure to combat used games and not alienate the consumer would be to provide additional (REAL additional, not on disc unlockables) content. Similar to a book, write new chapters, stretch what happens when the game is done or delve further into a part of backstory.
Make the game so that it may be revisited later with new content!
There definitely still a VERY long tail when it comes to PC gaming, because everything's digital now anyway.
GoG.com is proof that there's a market for older titles just as Steam sales do.
Maybe it's different with console development and outlets like Gamestop, I wouldn't really know. Though I'm doubtful, second hand games have been around forever as far as I know.
GoG.com is proof that there's a market for older titles just as Steam sales do.
Maybe it's different with console development and outlets like Gamestop, I wouldn't really know. Though I'm doubtful, second hand games have been around forever as far as I know.
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. Used games are the same as any used market. You don't see furniture makers bitch about people selling used couches on Craigslist, and you don't see Toyota bitch about used car sales. Dell isn't worried about used PC sales cutting into their sales numbers.
Yet another crutch for publishers and developers to use to justify over inflated pricing on their sub-par games.
Also, I bought Too Human new and I still regret it.
Yet another crutch for publishers and developers to use to justify over inflated pricing on their sub-par games.
Also, I bought Too Human new and I still regret it.
Sterling is incapable of writing anything that does not echo teenage angst inspired, knee jerk responses. Opinions are not news Jim, facts are.
I'll answer this man's complaint with a question to him and the industry at large:
When did my $60 dollars not become enough for you?
I went to the store, I paid the price listed I the box. I did my part, I didn't pirate it, I didn't buy it used, I did what you said you wanted and how am I treated for being a good little fan and consumer supporting your livelihood and industry?
Day one DLC, likely content stripped from the game. 15 dollar map packs. Bug ridden games, games with poor endings ala borderlands, Deus Ex, and ME3. Being penalized for not swearing loyalty by having to purchase on disc content?
My reward for buying new is to be shit on as a consumer and a fan. To have every last possible cent wrung from pockets even though I supported you. No longer am I a valid consumer to be sought after and cherished, cultivated and rewarded, no. I'm someone who has to be monetized to the nth degree and when I cry foul I'm called a fanboy, or entitled, that I expect too much for supporting you and doing as you asked. Yet your ever increasing greed and slime ball tactics never get addressed.
So, perhaps the real question is why should we support you when clearly you don't warrant the support?
When did my $60 dollars not become enough for you?
I went to the store, I paid the price listed I the box. I did my part, I didn't pirate it, I didn't buy it used, I did what you said you wanted and how am I treated for being a good little fan and consumer supporting your livelihood and industry?
Day one DLC, likely content stripped from the game. 15 dollar map packs. Bug ridden games, games with poor endings ala borderlands, Deus Ex, and ME3. Being penalized for not swearing loyalty by having to purchase on disc content?
My reward for buying new is to be shit on as a consumer and a fan. To have every last possible cent wrung from pockets even though I supported you. No longer am I a valid consumer to be sought after and cherished, cultivated and rewarded, no. I'm someone who has to be monetized to the nth degree and when I cry foul I'm called a fanboy, or entitled, that I expect too much for supporting you and doing as you asked. Yet your ever increasing greed and slime ball tactics never get addressed.
So, perhaps the real question is why should we support you when clearly you don't warrant the support?
Funny he mentioned Warcraft. It was on floppy discs and easily "shared" with friends, resold, whatever.
Warcraft 2 encouraged you to install the game on friends' computers which then gave them full access to multiplayer.
Ah, and what of that multiplayer? It keeps people coming back to the same game for years.. thus creating that "tail".
But it DOESN'T WORK IF YOU REPACKAGE THE SAME GAME EVERY YEAR OR SPLINTER THE ONLINE COMMUNITY WITH PAID ADD ONS
Warcraft 2 encouraged you to install the game on friends' computers which then gave them full access to multiplayer.
Ah, and what of that multiplayer? It keeps people coming back to the same game for years.. thus creating that "tail".
But it DOESN'T WORK IF YOU REPACKAGE THE SAME GAME EVERY YEAR OR SPLINTER THE ONLINE COMMUNITY WITH PAID ADD ONS
@MrFloppyKnickers:
I'm not saying it justifies all that behavior, but it's worth noting games (after adjusting for inflation) are really cheaper now than they ever were in the past. With increasing budgets, I guess they feel the need to make up the gap somewhere.
I'm not saying it justifies all that behavior, but it's worth noting games (after adjusting for inflation) are really cheaper now than they ever were in the past. With increasing budgets, I guess they feel the need to make up the gap somewhere.
Meh... more and more games will gradually go the DLC digital only route... this way they do have a tail. Look at Flower... I'm sure the occasional person still buys the game from PSN even this many years after release.
Whether we want it to happen or not... digital games are going to increasingly be the future.
Whether we want it to happen or not... digital games are going to increasingly be the future.
More likley there is no tail becuse 1000 games are released every month. And i cant just play games on my tv, thats there for porn as well
@Fury-Genesis
The only flaw in your argument is that it seems to side with the whole "if the used industry didn't exist then there would be no DLC" schtick. But the thing there is there would be all the same cash grabs regardless of the scapegoat.
The only thing that stopped DLC was the home consoles inability to execute it for as many generations. If not delivered with the crocodile tears of used games/piracy it would be delivered with the crocodile smile of somehow being a favor to the gamer(s).
It is foolish to think that if there was no (insert macguffin) that the industry would be doing a damn thing differently than it is now.
The only flaw in your argument is that it seems to side with the whole "if the used industry didn't exist then there would be no DLC" schtick. But the thing there is there would be all the same cash grabs regardless of the scapegoat.
The only thing that stopped DLC was the home consoles inability to execute it for as many generations. If not delivered with the crocodile tears of used games/piracy it would be delivered with the crocodile smile of somehow being a favor to the gamer(s).
It is foolish to think that if there was no (insert macguffin) that the industry would be doing a damn thing differently than it is now.
Oh and i buy most of my games after they have been out a while. And i buy em new... bless amazon, they really curb stomp the prices after a while.
Almost all of the used games I've bought have been stuff that is no longer printed (retro, limited release, etc). Sure, I sell a few newer things to friends/businesses every once and a while, but it's stupid to think of that future used purchase as lost money. They got paid for my version of it in full; If the person who buys mine used can't get it used, they may just never play it at all and then you've lost a potential fan who may go buy your next game new.
@Fury-Genesis
Prove it. Show any one piece of evidence that correlates used games sales with harm to the industry in any way shape or form.
Or maybe anyone who agrees, maybe one of you could prove it.
//
It is entirely likely that the second hand market is among the principle reasons gaming grew like it did, despite being as expensive a passtime as it is. It's among the most user friendly small ticket second hand markets in existence, which is great for us, the people who spend the money. It folds that money back into itself at a higher rate than any small ticket second hand market I can think of, which very very few industries can boast.
But it's fine, let's pretend basic high school economics doesn't apply to the second hand market for video games. Let's pretend that the used market and the new market are separate markets, as opposed to different ways of entering the same market. Let's pretend publisher profits are more important than we are.
Prove it. Show any one piece of evidence that correlates used games sales with harm to the industry in any way shape or form.
Or maybe anyone who agrees, maybe one of you could prove it.
//
It is entirely likely that the second hand market is among the principle reasons gaming grew like it did, despite being as expensive a passtime as it is. It's among the most user friendly small ticket second hand markets in existence, which is great for us, the people who spend the money. It folds that money back into itself at a higher rate than any small ticket second hand market I can think of, which very very few industries can boast.
But it's fine, let's pretend basic high school economics doesn't apply to the second hand market for video games. Let's pretend that the used market and the new market are separate markets, as opposed to different ways of entering the same market. Let's pretend publisher profits are more important than we are.
I would blame the cost of games on bloated budgets and crappy games creating consumers worry of spending $60 on a new title that might not live up to expectations. But that's just my opinion, Mr. X-Men Destiny/Too Human.
people will always make games, even if it's just indie stuff. so nothing is going to die rather than huge blockbuster titles that cost a shitton of money. i'd welcome that anyways. I make music, I consider it art, and though I used to tour and release albums, I don't ask for any money now, and I manage to get by.
If you want to consider games as art, consider stepping out of the business side of it and do it because you love it. If you're doing it with an expectation of reimbursement, you're diluting the art. When you have shareholders to answer to, you're diluting the art. Not that the peoplke working on it aren't artists, but the product is just that; a product.
If you want to consider games as art, consider stepping out of the business side of it and do it because you love it. If you're doing it with an expectation of reimbursement, you're diluting the art. When you have shareholders to answer to, you're diluting the art. Not that the peoplke working on it aren't artists, but the product is just that; a product.
For developers, its really just the first few weeks that truly affects the success of a game. The used market has very little impact on a new game and new sales during this period. Practically none.
Additionally, publishers have never made an effort to to give retailers beyond a pittance of a cut on game sales. This is what created the used market back in the 80s as selling games new did very little in the way of keeping doors open. It didn't seem terribly "harmful" to buy used until this generation.
Capcom, EA, THQ and others have begun targeting and blaming choices made by consumers for their problems. They make Gamestops and these little mom'n'pops out to be boogymen and spew this propaganda in the hope that younger or dumber gamers can be brainwashed and conditioned to buy into their day one DLCs, rancid little add-on packs and online passes.
There are developers and publishers that still treat the consumer with respect and I fully support my favorite studios more regularly than those that don't. I will support a studio that invests themselves in PROPER expansions to their games that enhance already great content, but not these short-lived overpriced add-ons.
Additionally, publishers have never made an effort to to give retailers beyond a pittance of a cut on game sales. This is what created the used market back in the 80s as selling games new did very little in the way of keeping doors open. It didn't seem terribly "harmful" to buy used until this generation.
Capcom, EA, THQ and others have begun targeting and blaming choices made by consumers for their problems. They make Gamestops and these little mom'n'pops out to be boogymen and spew this propaganda in the hope that younger or dumber gamers can be brainwashed and conditioned to buy into their day one DLCs, rancid little add-on packs and online passes.
There are developers and publishers that still treat the consumer with respect and I fully support my favorite studios more regularly than those that don't. I will support a studio that invests themselves in PROPER expansions to their games that enhance already great content, but not these short-lived overpriced add-ons.
Games like Warcraft have nigh-infinite replayability - of course they are going to continue to sell. Starcraft 2 is still selling, and I imagine they continue to make quite a bit of money on it. If you make a single-player game with a 10 hour story that isn't particularly memorable or worth playing again, how is that at all comparable to a game with a thriving competitive community?
$60 is a lot to pay for a mediocre 10 hours, and while it's unfair to the developers when they spent money and effort on a game only to not receive a dime from many of the people playing, the market is the way it is for a reason. It's much easier to spend $20 on a game than $60. If used games cease to exist, people are gonna be a lot more picky with their money, and cheaper games are going to sell more. No one's going to buy your piece of shit game for $60 just because they were willing to pick it out of a bargain bin for $5.
$60 is a lot to pay for a mediocre 10 hours, and while it's unfair to the developers when they spent money and effort on a game only to not receive a dime from many of the people playing, the market is the way it is for a reason. It's much easier to spend $20 on a game than $60. If used games cease to exist, people are gonna be a lot more picky with their money, and cheaper games are going to sell more. No one's going to buy your piece of shit game for $60 just because they were willing to pick it out of a bargain bin for $5.
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