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Perhaps Microsoft will actually realize having a good development kit does not mean you can disregard everything else.
At least these guys were civil and informative about it, but I'm still inclined to say they should just stfu and make games. We've got plenty enough teenagers on internet forums waging the console war, we don't need developers jumping in on it too.
I agree mostly, I remember spending loads of money on XBLA back in 2009-10 but this year there haven't been nearly the number of must-have titles on there.
More than half the stuff he's talking about are addressed in XBLIG. XBLIG is self publishing, ESRB free, TRC free, Avatar item free, and every console is a development kit.
For everything else there's XBLA.
MS may not have promoted XBLIG as far as they could have but it's also down to the devs to release good software and do a bit of self promotion and get their games reviewed.
For everything else there's XBLA.
MS may not have promoted XBLIG as far as they could have but it's also down to the devs to release good software and do a bit of self promotion and get their games reviewed.
@Tristrix
It's not a matter of "console wars", it's a matter of a console losing its worth to certain developers.
Like say, imagine you made certain parts for a car engine. After a while, you realise that everyone's switched to hybrids (theoretically speaking), where you can make more money for almost exactly the same part you were selling before. Why would you stick with the people who haven't updated their stuff, when doing so might mean you can't make the part for both?
It's not a matter of "console wars", it's a matter of a console losing its worth to certain developers.
Like say, imagine you made certain parts for a car engine. After a while, you realise that everyone's switched to hybrids (theoretically speaking), where you can make more money for almost exactly the same part you were selling before. Why would you stick with the people who haven't updated their stuff, when doing so might mean you can't make the part for both?
Speaking of 2D Boy, where the hell is their next game? World of Goo was a masterpiece; I would love to see more.
Fine, yeah, alright, I get all that, but why do they feel the need to feed into the public rhetoric on this shit? If they feel strongly about this, and can find 100 other noteworthy indie devs to agree with them, then fantastic, gather up all that data and send it to Microsoft. Deal with this shit in a mature and constructive fashion that improves the game development and publishing experience and benefits gamers. That, I can stand behind.
Going public with it like this though? Just comes off like WE MAD BRO to me.
Going public with it like this though? Just comes off like WE MAD BRO to me.
@ Tristix
If they don't speak up there never will be a change in things.
And telling developers who make games you like to "stfu" just because they are game developer is kinda low.
If they don't speak up there never will be a change in things.
And telling developers who make games you like to "stfu" just because they are game developer is kinda low.
@cudgeon
I think I addressed your points while you were typing them because you said something similar to the other guy. So I'll aim that last post at you too.
I think I addressed your points while you were typing them because you said something similar to the other guy. So I'll aim that last post at you too.
and I doubt that they send their statements to every game site, jim just likes to pick up this stuff because he generates hits with it and feels relevant.
Microsoft is no longer in a position to demand exclusivity now that PSN has more developers and is growing, while XBLA is losing developers
THIS.
THIS.
I don't see an end to XBLA dominance anytime soon. It's where most of the 360s exclusives come from.
Now, this isn't going to hold much weight coming from me, but...
I got my 360 end of last year and so far have found very few games worth buying on XBLA...
Trials HD = great
Toy Soldiers + Cold War = Great
But that's about it. Also got Battlefield 2 from games on demand, only to find the servers are off. Fucking excellent.
In contrast, i check the PSN store every Wednesday and generally there's something interesting to grab, more often than not spend money on there and with PSN+ there's often a list of free stuff too, good stuff aswell.
In further contrast i check steam most days and I buy a fuckload of games I'll never play, because the deals are too good to miss.
Every XBLA purchase takes some real deliberation though. Could be because the quality is lacking, could be because you've got to put on more points than it costs, could even perhaps be because they all have demos!
Fight through ads to find the store
Look through various lists of the same games
Find one of interest
download demo
Play a bit
"yeah it's pretty good"
Check price
Check how many moon points you'll need to spend to buy it
think hard
think: Fuck it, don't bother.
I got my 360 end of last year and so far have found very few games worth buying on XBLA...
Trials HD = great
Toy Soldiers + Cold War = Great
But that's about it. Also got Battlefield 2 from games on demand, only to find the servers are off. Fucking excellent.
In contrast, i check the PSN store every Wednesday and generally there's something interesting to grab, more often than not spend money on there and with PSN+ there's often a list of free stuff too, good stuff aswell.
In further contrast i check steam most days and I buy a fuckload of games I'll never play, because the deals are too good to miss.
Every XBLA purchase takes some real deliberation though. Could be because the quality is lacking, could be because you've got to put on more points than it costs, could even perhaps be because they all have demos!
Fight through ads to find the store
Look through various lists of the same games
Find one of interest
download demo
Play a bit
"yeah it's pretty good"
Check price
Check how many moon points you'll need to spend to buy it
think hard
think: Fuck it, don't bother.
XBLA'S Loss is PC's Gain.
PC is where indie devs have thrived for time immemorial. It's fitting that we get to embrace more of them and their great innovative ideas.
Suck it MS!
PC is where indie devs have thrived for time immemorial. It's fitting that we get to embrace more of them and their great innovative ideas.
Suck it MS!
@SC
Could just be that PSN is better at encouraging impulse buys. Personally, I do find that to be the case, especially since I got PS+. It's become a bit like Steam now... "Hell, it's X% off, I may as well."
The downside is that I've begun spending a lot more money on PSN games. The upside is that I've gotten a lot more games that I've really enjoyed.
Could just be that PSN is better at encouraging impulse buys. Personally, I do find that to be the case, especially since I got PS+. It's become a bit like Steam now... "Hell, it's X% off, I may as well."
The downside is that I've begun spending a lot more money on PSN games. The upside is that I've gotten a lot more games that I've really enjoyed.
At least he didn't talked like a kid whose mother didn't buy him the cereal at market and started screaming while rolling in the floor.
I doubt that PC and PSN are far better than XBL, but if his numbers are that representative, Microsoft may really need to change their policies.
I doubt that PC and PSN are far better than XBL, but if his numbers are that representative, Microsoft may really need to change their policies.
@Jim:
Do you consider all XBLA titles to be indie titles, or just games like Super Meat Boy with small development teams? I think that's an important distinction to make here.
Do you consider all XBLA titles to be indie titles, or just games like Super Meat Boy with small development teams? I think that's an important distinction to make here.
@SexualChocolate:
I thought your post was good n' fair.... Until you started listing your steps. The fact that you can go a day without falling off the roof of a building boggles my mind.
I thought your post was good n' fair.... Until you started listing your steps. The fact that you can go a day without falling off the roof of a building boggles my mind.
XBLA was one of the reasons I was considering keeping my Xbox. I, too, have felt it's dominance dying as many of it's best games (Braid, Limbo, Puzzle Quest) are on PC and PS3 now.
Microsoft just lost a good thing, is all. It happens to over companies and I'm sure their next console will make better strides. For now, I think I'm gonna trade my 360 in.
Microsoft just lost a good thing, is all. It happens to over companies and I'm sure their next console will make better strides. For now, I think I'm gonna trade my 360 in.
Trendy seems pretty indie to me. They are releasing on xbla and pc and I believe PSN. How stringent are these exclusivity requirements? XBLA seems to mostly be doing a good job filtering out the shit. On second thought, I don't think this guy is making his point clearly. I get the feeling he's trying to paint a micro canvas with a macro brush.
Microsoft was trying to monopolize the market... again. They failed and I love it! Their only monopoly is the desktop computer and I hope it all falls appart very soon!
Not that I'm a PC, PS3 or Nintendo fanboy. In my opinion the Xbox 360 is the best gaming console of this generation RROD or not, but I hate it when some big company acts like a dick.
Not that I'm a PC, PS3 or Nintendo fanboy. In my opinion the Xbox 360 is the best gaming console of this generation RROD or not, but I hate it when some big company acts like a dick.
I wonder if XBLA has become too saturated at this point. Despite what some people [fanboys] may say, there are dozens of worthwhile XBLA games out at this point. I probably have fifty or so games on my 360. But now we are possibly spoiled for choice. Given the chance to either try out the new, unheard of game (see: Adventures of Shuggy) or the one from a couple years ago that everybody raved about (Castle Crashers or Trials HD, for instance), most people will go with the known quantity.
I don't doubt the data collected, and I don't think 2D Boy meant this with any sort of disrespect, but I wonder if there is anything Microsoft can do about it at this point. They probably won't change anything drastically until the next generation of consoles comes out, and who knows when that'll be.
I don't doubt the data collected, and I don't think 2D Boy meant this with any sort of disrespect, but I wonder if there is anything Microsoft can do about it at this point. They probably won't change anything drastically until the next generation of consoles comes out, and who knows when that'll be.
Good. Keeps down the chaff. Having to wade through 10 billion crappy games does not make a service great.
I'm just here to say I hate Flower. And I rarely actually hate video games. Like, hate, not just think suck.
with the xbla indie and the lower "homemade" arcade games flooding xbla, i can see how this is. its turning into the iphone app store of consoles. to much crap. the "our way or the highway" attitude of MS is killing them. developers want to reach as many users as possible. they dont want limit who they are selling to.
@Tristrix
I don't see the problem here. It's a blog, they can write what they want, and 2D Boy is really into helping other indie developers. It's like telling Jonathon or Dale to stop posting articles and just email their stuff directly to companies.
It's also a very fair and informative write-up. I'm never going to complain about that. And, really, who cares about fanboy opinions, anyway?
I think this part says it best:
"I’d like to discuss why this is happening, what effect I think it will have, and what changes Microsoft can make in order to ensure that XBLA keeps getting the best possible games. As a developer I’d like to see as many healthy and prosperous digital distribution channels as possible, and I believe XBLA has not yet come close to fulfilling its potential."
I don't see the problem here. It's a blog, they can write what they want, and 2D Boy is really into helping other indie developers. It's like telling Jonathon or Dale to stop posting articles and just email their stuff directly to companies.
It's also a very fair and informative write-up. I'm never going to complain about that. And, really, who cares about fanboy opinions, anyway?
I think this part says it best:
"I’d like to discuss why this is happening, what effect I think it will have, and what changes Microsoft can make in order to ensure that XBLA keeps getting the best possible games. As a developer I’d like to see as many healthy and prosperous digital distribution channels as possible, and I believe XBLA has not yet come close to fulfilling its potential."
@vexed alex
It's definitely a polarizing game, and one I have to really be in the mood for to enjoy. It's barely even a "game" at all, and I think in a lot of ways, challenges the notion of what a "game" even is.
That having been said, I can totally understand why you'd hate it.
It's definitely a polarizing game, and one I have to really be in the mood for to enjoy. It's barely even a "game" at all, and I think in a lot of ways, challenges the notion of what a "game" even is.
That having been said, I can totally understand why you'd hate it.
I hate to say it,but IMO dominance has been dying for both XBLA,and Microsoft Disk based exclusives since about 2008?.
Both have slowed way down while others have stepped up their game.
The over-focus on Kinect doesn't help much either.
I'm hoping MS starts listening to developers and fans soon,because right now it seems like they are heading in the wrong direction.
Both have slowed way down while others have stepped up their game.
The over-focus on Kinect doesn't help much either.
I'm hoping MS starts listening to developers and fans soon,because right now it seems like they are heading in the wrong direction.
I don't know if MS cares, I mean is this all leading to decreased sales of games on XBLA? I suspect that they are probably of the mind set that whatever disgruntled Indie developer who leaves them can probably be replaced by another well vetted one. That being said, I think the latest Summer of Arade was probably the worst one ever so they shouldn't get complacent with this.
@Tristrix - Reckon you may be onto something there. PSN could just be better at creating impulse buys. - Certainly seems that way, and as you say PSN+ certainly makes it harder to say no to stuff. Think my aftermarket HDD in my PS3 has a bit of a roll to play too.
@Namodacranks - What? the listing of steps made you think i can barely live my life without falling off a roof? Am i missing a joke here or what? I'm confused.
@Namodacranks - What? the listing of steps made you think i can barely live my life without falling off a roof? Am i missing a joke here or what? I'm confused.
Funny how this is coming from 2D Boy, the guys who reportedly made almost 2 million bucks off of the WiiWare version of World of Goo. There was a lot of money to be made on WiiWare at one point, then suddenly, there wasn't.
It's always puzzled me that World of Goo is the one title managed to do huge numbers on WiiWare, while so many other great games on the service never came close.
It's always puzzled me that World of Goo is the one title managed to do huge numbers on WiiWare, while so many other great games on the service never came close.
@pokota
Just tired of the trend lately of these indie devs with an axe to grind, dude. I'm not saying that's what's happening here as they do seem to be approaching this in a respectful manner, but going public with it does make me question their motives. I just don't see that it serves any benevolent purpose that wouldn't be served much better by addressing their concerns directly with Microsoft.
Of course they're entitled to opinions. Everyone is. However it's become increasingly easy on teh interwebz to overlook the fact that words have consequences and that those consequences need to be weighed against whatever benefit there might be to putting them out there on the series of tubes to be preserved for the foreseeable eternity.
Lets apply that here. What are the benefits to 2D Boy for making this blog public? What have you, Pokota, gamer and blog reader, gained from this that in turn benefits 2D Boy? Not a whole hell of a lot, as far as I can tell. Now, what are the consequences of writing this blog and publicly calling out one of the very few avenues for an indie dev to get their product into the hands of the gamer? One can only speculate.
So... why the hell bother? Ya know? That's the point I'm making here. Don't ever burn your bridges. The approval of a handful of raging fanboys and the passing interest of a handful of gaming enthusiasts like us just isn't worth the possible repercussions.
Just tired of the trend lately of these indie devs with an axe to grind, dude. I'm not saying that's what's happening here as they do seem to be approaching this in a respectful manner, but going public with it does make me question their motives. I just don't see that it serves any benevolent purpose that wouldn't be served much better by addressing their concerns directly with Microsoft.
Of course they're entitled to opinions. Everyone is. However it's become increasingly easy on teh interwebz to overlook the fact that words have consequences and that those consequences need to be weighed against whatever benefit there might be to putting them out there on the series of tubes to be preserved for the foreseeable eternity.
Lets apply that here. What are the benefits to 2D Boy for making this blog public? What have you, Pokota, gamer and blog reader, gained from this that in turn benefits 2D Boy? Not a whole hell of a lot, as far as I can tell. Now, what are the consequences of writing this blog and publicly calling out one of the very few avenues for an indie dev to get their product into the hands of the gamer? One can only speculate.
So... why the hell bother? Ya know? That's the point I'm making here. Don't ever burn your bridges. The approval of a handful of raging fanboys and the passing interest of a handful of gaming enthusiasts like us just isn't worth the possible repercussions.
Kind of odd, that 2D Boy would be talking about XBLA, considering that they never had a game on there. They said they had tremendous success with World Of Goo on WiiWare, by saying that it even outsold the PC version of the game. But may be they're thinking about where to put their next game and XBLA seems to be out of the question. If Microsoft is difficult to work with, than developers will just go elsewhere, which is probably not what Microsoft wants, coming at the tail end of its console life cycle. These developers might not come back to them, in the next generation!
stating that XBLA dominance is over is a bit far fetched, sure their summer lineup of Indie games wasn't as strong as last years, but this isn't the end by any means. like the article stated, HALF of the developers they asked didn't even respond. that's like saying half the people you work with don't like their boss and the way he/she handles business. its gonna happen inevitably.
@Jonathan Holmes
Didn't Nintendo just kind of ramp stop promoting if ater a while? They had a bad time curating it too which probably didn't help and never really put out any really great Nintendo made, wiiware exclusives for that matter.
Didn't Nintendo just kind of ramp stop promoting if ater a while? They had a bad time curating it too which probably didn't help and never really put out any really great Nintendo made, wiiware exclusives for that matter.
@Holmes I think much of it has to do with achievements. Tons of gamers (myself included) put a lot of monetary value in meaningless unlockables that tell the world how good we are. When I got achievements in Mega Man 9 for example, it simply didn't have any meaning because there was nothing for me to add my points to, it was just oh look you did it.
Not gonna lie, I used to be that guy that would wait for something to come out for xbla before I would play it just for the achievement glory The Binging df Isaac was the game to finally break me out of 'console dependancy' I guess you can call it. I've gotta say, it's a breath of fresh air to be able to pay $5 for a game instead of this ridiculous point scheme. I have exactly 200ms points right now, what can I even get for that?
Not gonna lie, I used to be that guy that would wait for something to come out for xbla before I would play it just for the achievement glory The Binging df Isaac was the game to finally break me out of 'console dependancy' I guess you can call it. I've gotta say, it's a breath of fresh air to be able to pay $5 for a game instead of this ridiculous point scheme. I have exactly 200ms points right now, what can I even get for that?
vexed!!! what up homie, glad to see you're still around!!
anyways, you can't fault the bird for building a new nest on a new branch after the wind tore its old nest down from a different branch.
i'm not here to tell them where they can go, but they should be freely able to go there if they want to. it is freedom in a "free" market.
anyways, you can't fault the bird for building a new nest on a new branch after the wind tore its old nest down from a different branch.
i'm not here to tell them where they can go, but they should be freely able to go there if they want to. it is freedom in a "free" market.
In 6 months they'll start crying how bad Sony treated them and jump back to XBLA. They're just doing some whiny self-promotion. Plus, Holmsy is right. They never had a game on XBLA so how do they even know how well or poor one of their games would do on the 360?
@Tristrix
As I said, 2D Boy is very invested in promoting indie development, and this is not "calling out" Microsoft, it's calling for an open discussion on the topic. This comes from an "indie census" 2D Boy conducted. I really don't see how you can say anything negative about the original article, it's very informative and unbiased. Criticism can be extremely constructive.
This is NOT a Team Meat or Nine Dots scenario at all.
As far as the article itself, the most eye-catching part was the "ease of working with the platform holder" survey. Microsoft REALLY needs to think about those results. For comparison's sake, most respondents voted Valve as "easy", Sony as "so-so", Nintendo as "difficult", and Microsoft as "excruciating". That is not good at all, and likely accounts for a lot of what 2D Boy is saying.
XBLA went from a sizable lead over PSN in terms of games developed to a good-sized deficit against PSN under "games planned for 2012". There has to be reasons for that, and they need to be examined and discussed.
Of course, PC and iOS/Android blow them both away in all categories.
As I said, 2D Boy is very invested in promoting indie development, and this is not "calling out" Microsoft, it's calling for an open discussion on the topic. This comes from an "indie census" 2D Boy conducted. I really don't see how you can say anything negative about the original article, it's very informative and unbiased. Criticism can be extremely constructive.
This is NOT a Team Meat or Nine Dots scenario at all.
As far as the article itself, the most eye-catching part was the "ease of working with the platform holder" survey. Microsoft REALLY needs to think about those results. For comparison's sake, most respondents voted Valve as "easy", Sony as "so-so", Nintendo as "difficult", and Microsoft as "excruciating". That is not good at all, and likely accounts for a lot of what 2D Boy is saying.
XBLA went from a sizable lead over PSN in terms of games developed to a good-sized deficit against PSN under "games planned for 2012". There has to be reasons for that, and they need to be examined and discussed.
Of course, PC and iOS/Android blow them both away in all categories.
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