Once again, we'd like to bring the rest of the world into our nice little robot corner and give them a peek into our unedited internal conversations. Why would you want to read such things? Because we happen to be hilarious, and we also have some very interesting points of views when it comes to video game current events.
In this week's edition, we start off by discussing Microsoft's Aaron Greenberg's statement that the people who buy Wiis are buying them as "novelty" items. As expected, every Wii hating editor jumps on this bandwagon while the "Defenders of the Wii" editors buckle down for some hardcore Wii defense.
It literally ends with Nick Chester and Johnathan Holmes arguing over which is the better game: Rock Band, or Wii Play.
Ready. Set. Discuss!
Nick Chester
I already posted this in my scraps last Friday. I think this could be a nice Dtoid discussion. I kind of agree with Greenberg here, although I don't think many Wii owners will "graduate" to an MS or Sony console. It's more likely they'll purchase Nintendo's next console and/or drop gaming altogether. I agree that the Wii has a number of things that can appear to core gamers; that's not the issue. But the truth is that the bulk of Wii owners are not gamers in the typical sense, and many did pick it up because of the "novelty" of something like Wii Sports. I'm baffled when my Wii-owning friends (non-gamers) complain to me that there are "no good games" for the Wii, when I very clearly spelled out to them what they should expect.
Yes, I'm a Wii hater. Also, I spent an hour playing the WiiWare version of Dr. Mario with Debbey last night.
Joe Burling
I agree, too, Nick. However, I do believe that some Wii owners will "graduate" to a high def console. In fact, I've already seen it happen with some of my Wii-owning friends. In their case, they still defended the Wii but wanted more of a challenge and a better library of games, along with the streaming media features of other consoles.
I've seen many friends try to throw Wii parties, but they usually had trouble even finding someone who wanted to play. Keep in mind that most of the people at the party were non-gamers. However, if I have a party and bust out Rock Band, I can't get people off of it. That Wii market is now concious of video games and they are starting to show some interest in what else is out there. A curious Wii owner with an open mind and a thirst for a challenge will probably find the 360 or PS3 pretty appealing, whether it's for the online functionality, media streaming, custom soundtracks, better graphics, DVD or Blu-Ray player built in, etc.
Jonathan Holmes
Orcist
I have to go with Jonathon with this one. I've always enjoyed my experience with the Wii. Of course, no one made me review Boogie, but I think it's a damn fine console with generally good games. It's not like the PS3 and 360 won't see their fair share of shovel ware.
And I firmly believe that some people will graduate. Not 100%, obviously, but maybe 15%? Every generation is like that. It's not like all of our friends that owned an NES stuck with gaming, and it's not like everyone who bought a 360 as their first console will stick with it, either.
Joe Burling
My problem is that I haven't found a single game on the Wii that I like. It seems like the best games on the Wii peaked at launch then have been slowly going downhill. I was hoping to see Wii games get more complicated and compelling, but it seems the opposite has happened. Madden 07, for example, had three speeds when throwing the ball, but Madden 08 only had two. Developers don't deny that they are trying to water down controls, either. This pattern of dumbing down game play is what turns me off so much.
However, I think that I look for a different experience when I play games. I view the Wii as sort of a "toy" myself, so I understand why some people feel that way. I understand that some gamers love it, I'm just not quite sure I understand why. I wish I understood why. :-(
Jim Sterling
My problem with the Wii is that I never played mine. That is not a criticism of the Wii or Nintendo -- they upheld their end of the bargain. Nobody else did. Apart from Capcom once or twice.
Jonathan Holmes
Joe, you are one respectful son-of-a-bitch. Good form, sir.
The Wii library is extremely lacking in the three most "hardcore" genres, M rated action games, Epic RPGs, and online competitive games. I fully recognize that as more than enough reason for some to ignore the system. Still, it can't be denied the Wii crushes the competition in surgery sims, point an click puzzle games, 2D SHMUPs, and rated T adventure games.
The one game I'm still surprised more people didn't get into in Metroid Prime 3. playing that again yesterday was a real eye opener. It looks so much better than every other Wii game, including Brawl and Galaxy, and the game play is incredible.
Not putting that game online is the single stupidest thing Nintendo has done with their Wii strategy. My only guess is that NoJ didn't think an online FPS would be good for their strategy to keep the Wii a living room friendly device. Mom and Dad missing even one episode of Two and a Half Men because of Little Johnny's wants to use the TV for "just one more deathmatch" may be something Nintendo doesn't want associated with their console.
My question is, you guys perfectly satisfied with the 360 and the PS3, would you even play a "hardcore" game on the Wii? Like if they made a new GTA for the Wii with better than PS2 but worse than PS3 graphics, and a whole new GTA story to love, would you want to play it? Or would would it be a case of sour grapes?
Jim Sterling
If it was a really good game, then of course I'd want to play it. Part of the reason I got rid of my Wii was for geographic purposes, not just because I wasn't playing it. When my immigration to the States is over, I will be getting it again. I don't hate the Wii, I hate the culture that's grown up around it. The Wii has some great games, some beautiful games -- all from Nintendo. And maybe two from Capcom.
I don't know. As I wrote today, I really feel bad and bitter about the whole thing, and freely admit it. I worry that the games industry will go the way of MTV, of pop music, of all that stuff. I don't dislike the Wii as an entity, or a gaming platform. Just what it's beginning to stand for.
Joe Burling
You asked the root question that has been at the center of my Wii dilemma since launch! If there was a really good "hardcore" game on the Wii, would I play it? Is that what I really want at all, or do I just want better mini-games?
I would definitely play such a game on the Wii. I've played nearly all of the best-rated Wii games so far (including Metroid Prime 3, which you speak so fondly of). I just haven't found one I liked yet. I've done a lot of soul searching about this and I think what I'd rather see out of the Wii is better mini-games.
When I think of the Wii, I think of friends sitting around playing games together. A more "hardcore" game, like an epic RPG, doesn't really seem to fit there. Additionally, I'd much rather play a great epic RPG on my 360 or PS3, for too many reasons to list here. No, what I want are better mini-games.... GOOD mini-games... the kind of games that are fun for more than 10 minutes. That's what I want out of the Wii.
I want games like Tiger Woods with controls that truly simulate a golf swing. I want games that take true skill to master. I want games where the controls can't be taught just by looking at one picture. What I truly want out of the Wii are games that require more skill. I don't want to be the one to say how exactly that skill should be layed out because there are people out there who are so much smarter and more creative than I am.
Jonathan Holmes
That's interesting stuff, Joe. I would have never, ever thought someone would want more mini-games on the Wii.
My follow up question is this, when the PS3 and 360 officially dump their old controllers in favor of Wii-remote and Nunchuck knock-offs, will you then want more mini-games on those consoles as well?
Nick Chester
I think my main issue is that I'm not completely sold (still) on the Wii's motion controls. Some of my favorite games on the Wii probably would have also been great experiences without motion controls, which I felt added very little to the experience. Super Mario Galaxy has it's handful of inspired and memorable motion-controlled gameplay portions, but I probably would have also enjoyed it with a GameCube controller.
But forget what I think of the game library for a second; back to your point about how you don't think that people are buying the console as a novelty. Your friend is the exception, not the rule. Go into any GameStop, spend a few hours in there, and just wait. Here's what you'll see: a lot of people (mostly parents) trying to buy a Wii (but they can't); a lot of people (mostly parents) who already own a Wii trying to buy Wii Fit (but they can't); a lot of people who already own a Wii buying mini-games for their children or by default because they're tired of playing Wii Sports; people who own a Wii looking buying more controllers so they can play Wii Sports with them (Wii Play sales are still through the fucking roof); and variations of everything that I just said.
Here's the fact: most Wii owners are NOT you, Jonathan. They're not playing Zack and Wiki or Okami or Metroid Prime 3 or Blast Works or Trauma Center. They're playing Wii Fit, they're playing Wii Sports, Wii Play (why?), and (for some reason) Carnival Games. Nintendo has first-party hits with their known franchises, but sales figures spell out who exactly is playing and purchasing games for their Wii.
There's no problem with this -- it's all fine. I don't care, really. But to deny that the bulk of Wii users didn't purchase it based on a twitch "novelty" decision after seeing Wii Play or getting wind of Wii Fit is pretty ignorant. Nintendo knows this, and who they're marketing to shows that. Also, considering the number of Wii consoles Nintendo pushes monthly (despite "shortages"), their software sales don't mirror that. If so many people own Wii consoles (and no doubt, they do), how come we're not seeing more game sales?
As for whether or not I'll want more mini-games for the PS3/360 when motion controls may or may not be officially revealed, the answer to that is "no." I don't want more mini-games. I want more titles that make use of the technology in ways that make sense, delivering fun, varied experience that can't be delivered with a traditional control scheme. Boom Blox is a good start; Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is not. I don't want to wave my weapon in Heavenly Sword 2 by waggling a controller, because pressing buttons seems to be working just fine. As far as I'm concerned, Nintendo has barely delivered on the promise of "groundbreaking" game play experiences with their Wii remotes.
Additionally, my Wii sensor bar keeps falling behind my television and that's pissing me off. Also, it's near-impossible to buy a standard definition television these days, and this 480p shit is unacceptable in 2008.
Samit Sarkar
Amen to that, Nick. I bought Wii component cables for a friend, but they can't make 480p look all that good when it's blown up to fit a 40" LCD.
Dyson
I'd like to jump back a few comments and say that I think that a very large majority of Wii owners will 'graduate' to another console. I can easily use the NES and all of you as my examples.
The NES is the systems millions of people played, including all of us. Then we moved all the way up through the generations and have gotten where we are today. Not everyone who was an NES player made that move, though. A lot of people stopped playing games when they got too complicated. Believe it or not, there are millions of gamers out there that just want to have plain old fun.
The two major systems out there don't provide that level of entry. You have to know far more than you'd realize to just walk up and play a 360 or PS3 game with no previous gaming knowledge. People like us don't remember that because we've been doing this for years, but the people that could have, or would have picked up an NES controller and had a blast, still exist. The only difference is the market moved away from them and more to us.
Nintendo has created their system to, at least to me, do the same thing that the NES did: get a bunch of people to crowd a living room and play games. And since those "NES people" still exist, we've seen the market grow with sales. They may not be sales to people like us, but they're selling to people that we used to be like when we were kids and picked up the NES, (or Atari if you're old :).
Will all of those people that are getting the Wii, now, become like us in the following generations? No. If that were true the gaming industry would be more enormous than it already is, since the industry would have never lost all those people it did by becoming complicated.
But I assure you that a good portion of those people that are buying the Wii as a first console, or as a return to consoles, may just buy something more complicated down the line. They may find that they will start looking for more complex challenges, or more complex themes and move upward in technology to a system that can provide that.
I know that this is true because this is how you, me, and almost everyone else got to where we are today.
Jonathan Holmes
Using GameStop customers as a gauge for what Wii owners are thinking probably isn't the most scientific of measures.
Personally, I've witnessed just as many people buy a XBox 360 because "it's got dem Halos on it" or a PS3 because "It shoots out blue rays!" as I have anyone buy a Wii just for the mini games. But I don't go and take that info and start assuming that all 360 and PS3 owners are like that (just the ones that shop at GameStop).
The most interesting point you make is that most Wii owners aren't like me, that they aren't playing the good Wii games. Sales don't totally support that argument, but it is safe to say that Carnival Games would have probably done worse on the 360 than it did on the Wii, so the point does have some validity.
What's interesting about that is how it connects to what Joe said. There are kick ass games on the Wii, but people like Joe actually don't want kick ass games on that console. They want their kick ass games to only be on the heavy duty systems. That's the kind of thinking that keeping Wii game's sales from being what they could be. Good games are being left unplayed because hardcore gamers don't use their Wii to play hardcore games.
That being said, hardcore Wii game sales aren't that bad. Both Resident Evils sold a million each world wide, better than most RE re-releases and crappy on rails gaiden games. The Nintendo first party games (with the exception of Metroid Prime) all sold in the millions. No More Heroes, despite looking like crap even by Wii standards, is still the best selling Suda51 game ever made, etc, etc. The real test will be when a 3rd party actually puts AAA money and talent on a Wii exclusive game for the "hardcore" audience. I don't think that's even happened yet (thanks to developers who think like Joe).
And BTW, I love Wii Play. The pool game is fantastic, as is Tanks. Still haven't beaten every level, actually.
Chad Concelmo
Huh. This is a tough one because I can actually see both sides.
On the one hand, I understand how people fear the Wii as a scary sign of overly casual things to come. I love every type of video game, but would not want to live in a world with nothing but Wii Play and Carnival Games.
On the other hand, though, I am scared by some of the generic stuff I see on the Xbox 360 more than anything. Even with something like Wii Play there is some kind of creativity involved. Even things as simple as color usage and art direction are used to make the game stand out from its very simple premise. The game itself may be ridiculously shallow, but you can tell the designers at least tried to imbue some kind of originality into it -- that unto itself is refreshing.
The myriad amounts of ugly first-person shooters and "hardcore"-just-to-be- controversial games on the 360 make me sad as a gamer almost to the point of insulting me. I grew up on things like Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island and Final Fantasy VI -- these are games that embrace being videogames. They don't strive for realism or violence or shiny new graphics -- they utilize the incredible medium to offer something full of eye-popping wonder and fantastical, endless creativity. These are the traits that I want in a videogame, a medium like no other.
Justin Villasenor
Even if Chad got caught up in a hippie diatribe I'm still in total agreement with him here. The whole reason I have a DS, PS3, 360, PSP, Wii, and gaming PC is because I like playing everything. Sure, I prefer some genres more than others, but I'm still a total generalist when it comes to gaming. And, rather than complaining about an area where one platform may be lacking, will look to other systems to fill that particular need, whatever it might be.
Okay, I clearly forgot the meaning of diatribe when I wrote that. >.>
Dyson
Wii vs 360!!!Wii vs 360!!!Wii vs 360!!!Wii vs 360!!!
Sorry, I just had to.
Wii vs 360, though? Not even a contest. Those consoles sell to different people, and not just the soccer moms. I think that the point that everyone missed about the Wii is not that soccer moms are buying Wiis, but that they're buying any game console at all.
I think a lot of the confusion that all these so-called analysts are reeling from extends from the fact that they may have been blindsided. Everyone is trying to justify the bold claims that they made in the past by creating even more bold, not to mention stupid, claims.
The market changed. Nintendo changed the market. Wah. Get over it. Take some of Chad's hippie juice and relax and enjoy some Rabid Rabbids.
Also, Rock Band is just an advancement Guitar Hero, which was just a rip-off of Guitar Freaks. Fun fact: Wii Guitar Hero 3 sold more on the Wii than any other system.
Since I'm at it, I'd like to make note of Jim's PS2 statement. The PS2 has always reminded me of the SNES in the fact that it became the end-all system for the its generation.
Pancakes.
Oh yeah, to respond to Nick's response:
I won't try to argue that what you say is true, I just wanted to see what games he was playing for both systems (him, not you Mr. Rock Band). There's no doubt that every system ever has garbage on it, and the Wii has more than its fair share, but the way you originally phrased your comment made it sound like your kid played the most Wii in the house, and only because he was a kid. As if kids are stupid or something and that's the only reason the system should be played.
I would disown him for the Carnival Games, though.
Jonathan Holmes
If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that Carnival Games is the devil.
Nick Chester
The art and animation alone in Rock Band requires more creative thought, attention and effort than anything in Wii Play. This is a ridiculous argument.
And that Tank game (at least multi-player) was a joke. I haven't played the single player game, but I played enough Atari 2600 games as child to get the idea. If you like the games in Wii Play, that's fine. By all means, enjoy yourself. I can appreciate simplicity in a game, but I also enjoy fun. For me, Wii Play is not fun.
You can stick your fun fact regarding the sales of Guitar Hero III on the Wii. Here's a fun fact: the Wii version of Guitar Hero III is an inferior product in nearly every way when compared to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions of the title. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, really.
Of course Rock Band is an advancement of Guitar Hero; I'm not sure what that has to do with the amount of effort and creativity that it takes to bring the final product to life. Trying to diminish a title based on the fact that it took cues from or is a simple advancement of an earlier title is ludicrous. This is coming from the guy that is likely re-decorating his house for the release of Mega Man 9.
Jonathan Holmes
C'mon Nick, I don't want to be mean to the guys at Harmonix, but are you really trying to tell me you think the generic "rocker" character designs and their "rocking" animations of Rock Band took any real creativity to come up with?
My point is that Rock Band is a kick ass game, but it's not about creativity. It's about letting the player feel like they are doing things in real life that they can't actually do. It expresses no ideas, no creative though other than "It's time to rock!" A great thought to be sure, but not one that has a whole lot of originality or creativity to come up with it.
And comparing WiiPlay's Tanks to an Atari 2600 game comes off more like a compliment than I think you meant it to.
2600 > 360.
Nick "I've just about had enough" Chester
The art design of Rock Band goes beyond the character design. Forget that for a second: the menu design in that game probably took more thought and effort than the entirety of Wii Play. And to step on the "originality or creativity" of Rock Band and then turn around and try to defend Wii Play in that light is crazy. How difficult do you think it was come up with "point at things and shoot" or "running by waggling two controllers" or "move a block to shoot at another block"?
This "debate" is turning ridiculous. I'm not going to convince you that one thing is better than the other, because this is a matter of opinion. But whether James Howe's Bunnicula is a better work of fiction than Tolstoy's War and Peace is not; they're both fine books, but in terms of craft and design, one clearly outshines the other. Apply that similar thinking to Wii Play and Rock Band.
Jonathan Holmes
I fucking love Bunnicula.
To be clear, I never said Rock Band didn't take a lot of thought or effort to make. It just didn't take that much creativity. You know when you're writing something, and an idea comes to your head to say it in a way that will really make sense to people? That sir, is creativity.
As you know probably better than most, there are a lot of writers out there who put a lot of time and effort into their writing, but that doesn't mean they are creative. I mean, porn takes a lot of effort to make, especially pirate porn with good special effects. Doesn't mean it's all that creative though.
And for the record, I never said Wii Play took a lot of creativity to make. I think it took just a hair more creativity to make that Rock Band.
A hair, which by the way, seems to be placed firmly across the ass of one esteemed and beloved editor-in-chief at Destructoid.
(please don't fire me).
Dyson
C'mon, Nick. You know that shit is Bunnicula all the way!
More serious, though. I've alway thought that it was impossible to have "which game is better than" conversations. Everyone's always right, but no one ever wins. Unless you're comparing the same game on two platforms, then your always going to come to a stalemate or fisticuffs.
I mean, it's hard enough to state which game in a series is the better one. Take Mega Man, since you mentioned it. We all know that MM2 was the best, right? Right?
See? It will always end in tears.
Jonathan Holmes
I got in a "Mega Man 2 vs Mega Man 3" battle with someone that lasted for days. Days of my life that I'll never get back.
But I'd do it all again. Mega Man 2 deserves it.
Joe Burling
When it comes to opinion, no one is right or wrong.
BTW, it's not just mini-games I want, but compelling new ways to use the Wiimote (like Chester said). So far, those haven't come in the form of epic RPGs or the like. The closest thing to what I'm looking for out of the Wii so far are the mini-games and maybe one of the Tiger Woods games.
Dyson
I can only assume that someone mentioned Zack and Wiki already? And I agree Joe, I want more of that too.
Nick Chester
like how this conversation started about whether or not we agreed with Greenberg regarding Wii owners "upgrading" or whatever, and derailed into some argument about Wii Play versus Rock Band. I hope all of these discussion pieces go like this.
Joe Burling
Oh yeah! The original point!
Yeah, I have a feeling that the Wii will never truly deliver on all of the innovation they promised, and people who get thirsty for a real challenge may very well check out a 360 or PS3 (especially since the 360 will be less than the price of the Wii in less than two weeks).
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't expect Nintendo to surprise us anytime soon. No bunny surprise for us. :-(
Jonathan Holmes
I hope by the end of the next Destructoid discusses, Nick and I end up debating about what's a better game, Halo 3 or No One Can Stop Mr Domino. I bet you can guess which game I'll be backing.
As for your point Joe, I personally don't remember Nintendo ever promising innovation exactly. I do remember them saying it would give us something that you couldn't get anywhere else, and that it has certainly done.
Joe Burling
So... you are saying I got bunny surprise and didn't even realize it?
Dyson
Yes, Joe. Maybe you're too used to the surprise by now ;)
Orcist
Dyson, it might be a good idea to do a quick little recap at the end to remind people how we ended up here -- I certainly lost track of the conversation.
Dyson
Thy will be done, Orcist.
So to cap it all up; Wii haters and Wii lovers all came together and drank Chad's hippie juice. Everyone then went on a "colorful voyage," and Nick learned to appreciate the Wii for all of its good-timey fun.
The juice eventually wore off, and Nick returned to his normal self, constantly denying the entire experience. Fortunately, Jonathan Holmes used the "pics or it didn't happen" rule of the Internet, and is now blackmaling Nick by forcing him to make Miis for the neighborhood children.
Fun, wasn't it? Now, of course, it's your turn. Novelty, or not? Wii Play, or Rock Band? Macaroni and Cheese, or Shells and Cheese?
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Contest:
3:48 AM on 07.15.2008
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I don't see any games that I'm interested in anymore unless they show off something on their press conference in a few hours
There are millions of gamers who bought Mario Galaxy, Zelda, RE4, RE:UC, Super Paper Mario, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Metroid Prime 3, Smash Bros, Red Steel...
I'm not saying these games are good or bad, but Soccer Moms are not the ones buying these games.
It was a very entertaining read nonetheless.
True that.
my feelings are more in line with Nick, Joe, and Jimmles on this one. i think the Wii is mostly (mostly) a toy and fear for the future of game development if we all get waggle-happy and casual-friendly. and this was my favorite quote from Nick:
"I think this pretty much sums it up. I just want to play good games and I'm happy. With that said, I certainly would not be happy if I only owned a Wii."
BOOSH!
Call of Duty 4, GTA4, and Guitar Hero are the only multi-platform games to outsell Mario Galaxy, Mario Kart, and Smach Bros.
I am not saying that 360 and PS3 are less hard core. They are more hardcore than Wii, but these are not soccer moms.
One of the things I saw a lot of in this debate was the opinion that "the people who buy a Wii vs the 360/PS3, are different gamers". I don't think that's true really, at least not for everyone. It seems to me that everyone in this debate has all three consoles, as do I, so that point doesn't hold true all the time now does it?
Sure, there are a bunch of people who bought the Wii just because of Wii Sports, but I'm fine with that. Heck, I enjoy playing Wii Sports sometimes myself. I can't imagine that the Wii is the only console I'd want to have as a gamer, and that is why I am sure, at least a good portion of Wii owners (the "new gamers" segment of them) will maybe move on to another console later.
If they decide not to, it's no real loss though. Is anyone going to be upset because mom didn't buy the Xbox 720? Would that really effect the game industry in any way at all? I dont' think so. What is important is that the game industry stays the way it has always been; for the hardcore. Remember, just because the NES is looked back upon as a family console, doesn't mean that everyone in the family was "hardcore" enough for games like Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden or Final Fantasy.
... Yeah I'm talking out of my ass, all I know is that when I got some of my Halo playing friends to play Carcassonne on XBLA, the phrase "put it next to that tree." was said 20 plus time, and the phrase "build my d*ck castle!" was said at least once.
wait, is this about the Wii?
well I got a Wii close to launch, and it wasn't what I hoped it to be. But I believe that with that new Motionplus accessory, Nintendo is trying to deliver on the initial expectations of "experienced" gamers (I'm not going to say the H-word) when the system was originally announced.
So apparently they do care. (Although it could be possible that they withheld the tech for 1:1 motion detection so that people would have to pay extra for what they really wanted, which would make them bastards. But I will withhold my criticism on that until I get more information on the Wii Motionplus.)
The problem is while Nintendo release solid games that have been made with care and attention, there is an absolute mass of third party publishers seeing the massive success and saying "me too" while putting buckets of shitware on the system in a hope to make some easy profit.
I've just never been really impressed with any of the Wii games I've seen so far (granted I haven't played Metroid 3). I just can't enjoy any of them for more than an hour. I can sit down with my 360 and lose track of time easily.
At the same time, I understand it is primarily the goal of Nintendo to make easy, accessible games that anyone can play.
That is a major problem, I think, for most of us who have "graduated" past that initial stage of "introductory gaming". We want more than waggles and funny little characters that make us giggle.
Also, I think it is important to note that the reason most of us stuck with gaming in the first place, is because it provided us with almost insurmountable tasks that we felt immensely rewarded for completing. Alot more people might not stick with gaming just based on their experience with the Wii because it's forgettable when it's over. I go back and play some old NES games and man..... they are still hard as hell.
Most Wii games are paper thin, when you fire it up... that's it, you've seen it all.
The Wii may have introduced an innovative controller to the world of gaming, but you don't feel like you've accomplished anything or that you were truly challenged when you turn the console off after a session. To me, it just feels like an upgraded model of those plug and play mini-game devices they sell at the mall on the little vendor carts, you know what I'm talkin' about.
I'm glad more people are experiencing video games than they might normally, but at the same time, they're not getting a very good representation. It's an odd pickle for sure.
If all you are looking for is action, is that really hardcore videogame fan or is it a niche fan?
I like variety. I love Bioshock, Final Fantasy, Half Life:OB AND I love Mario, BoomBlox, and Z&W. That is why I am a hardcore gamer.
Because I like games whether they are bright and colorful or not. Whether they are E or M, I like games. Whether puzzle or action, it's on.
Casual waggle fests like Carnival Games disturb me. Casual games like GH, DDR, WiiSports, Karaoke Revolution, etc. excite me.
If the game is good, I like it.
Mind you, I'm not saying your not aloud to dislike the Wii. It is fair, it's your opinion. But Just because I like mine doesn't mean I am a casual gamer. It doesn't mean I am disappointed.
No no, I completely understand that there are some games that do make good use of the Wii's capabilities and I owe it to myself as a gamer to play as many of those as possible. I myself, hate waggle-fests, they frighten me.
I think the major problem I face when I think about owning a Wii though, is the lack of 3rd party support. I think it bothers me that it seems like Nintendo doesn't care that much to obtain a lot of quality games from other developers and just sort of rests on their laurels. I could be wrong, maybe they are trying, I dunno.
I just feel like there's a lot of potential there and eventually the Wii might get phased out. If companies start releasing motion sensing controls for the 360 and PS3, I think Nintendo will have to do a lot more to innovate and persuade 3rd party developers to create better content than they have been. You can't rely on a fickle casual fanbase forever.
Anyway, it doesn't mean the Wii is terrible or doesn't have any good games, I just think it will take more than what Nintendo is giving at this point in time.
I mean I own one, I like the Virtual Console and yeah Nintendo's games are usually quality as always, but most of the rest is shit and there's absolutly no excuse for the graphics
it's almost like the same situation with the Gamecube where there were few games PERIOD outside of Nintendo except the Wii has few QUALITY games outside of Nintendo
but hey if you like the Wii that's fine, I'm not gonna try to change your mind or argue with you endlessly, to each his own
uh fix'd
what is better? windows/linux/osx
sex with... yourself/someone/everyone
stop thinking single... start thinking multiple = bigger chance of having some sort of pleasure!
So yeah, I think people are stupid for buying a collection of what should be free mini games and the near carbon copies of Nintendo franchises from previous generations then mouthing off about the innovative motion controller, while going to the attic to dig out their old gamecube ones.
The wii is a novlety. Its the gamecube with gamecube quality games, 10x more shovelware and a novelty motion stick stuck on.
Nintendo's systems are definitely responsible for most of the memorable moments in my personal gaming history. I grew up playing with power! Thing is when I think of games I want to get to play on my Wii, I think mostly of Gamecube games. I keep hoping that all the spooging over waggle will settle down and we'll start to see more Wii games with substance, but for the most part I'm still seeing just more party games and PS2 ports.
Mind you, one PS2 port I'd love to see would be the MGS Essential Collection. All would be forgiven if they brought that to the Wii. ^_^
I don't think the system is a novelty, but Nintendo does need to step it up a bit and get some more AAA titles out there. At least enough to drown out the shovelware being released every week. We've got Mad World and Fatal Frame 4 on the horizon...but we need more.
Yes, I know the two I mentioned aren't 1st-party games. But they are the ones I'm really looking forward to (Ghostbusters as well, but I may pick that up for my 360).
Interesting discussion.
The motion controls that really killed it for me. I don't want it, in any form, touching my games. I have yet to see a single title convince me otherwise. Not one. I'm waiting, but so far I'm not seeing it. It's silly and unnecessary except with mini games which are only fun with a friend for about 10 minutes in my experience.
I own 2 consoles from the current generation - Wii and DS. The DS is the one console to rule them all. I chose the Wii as it represented more innovative thinking than the 360 or PS3. I have seen some innovation on the system but now I see it as more of an old-school system and, as a retro gamer, that's fine with me. It has a better 2D fighter and shmup library than either of the other systems and those are my favorite genres. I sometimes check out the PS3 and 360 sections in the game store and everything seems very generic. I see far too many drably-colored FPS/3rd person shooters or ridiculously bloody action games; both genres far too often look realistic. If I wanted realism, I'd go outside. I want interesting art design and creative game design; I want hand-crafted high res 2D; I want colors. None of these are present on the 360 or PS3. In other words, I agree with Mr. Holmes.
I'm going to shut up now and go play some Blast Works.
Metal Gear Solid 4 and Ratchet and Clank on the PS3 (Uncharted, too... but I miss you Jak and Daxter :( )
Bioshock, Dead Rising, and Oblivion on the 360... oh and *ahem* Naruto: Rise of a Ninja...
Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Metroid Prime 3, and a bunch of other stuff on the Wii
Generally, this whole generation is awesome and is shaping up to continue with the awesomeness. :)
Oh, and I want more Memory Card Moments... that would be awesome, too.
A better discussion would be to ask "non-gamers" that own the console if they believe it was a novelty purchase.
Can I house river city ransom, metal slug and gunstar heroes on it simultaneously?
GOOD DAY SIR, POINT MR PERFECT.
I don't even feel like getting involved in discussions about the Wii anymore. Their press conference today will reveal a lot about the direction their heading, and that is when I will have my final opinion about the console and Nintendo as a whole. Today is a big day for Nintendo, and it can go one way or the other.
Personally I worry about what hardcore gamers do with their wii and what games they buy for it. However, I like playing on my wii and there are some great games on it and therefore I don't see it as a novelty item.
Yes millions own the "hardcore" Nintendo games but thats only part of the billions who own the hardware and maybe wii play or carnival games and thats it. So soccer moms ARE buying the wii and the sales numbers back that up.
You have seen the madworld trailer, right? It seems Platinum games has decided to put our little thought experiment to the test, with one of the most gloriously violent games I have ever seen. Stylized, to be sure, but really violent. Also, Manhunt 2 was pretty gruesome. Any thoughts on those 2?
I mean, I don't even like FPSs. And I don't like really competitive games. Where does that place me?
THIS is what ultimately turns something into a novelty. Will the Wii's sales one day just drop significantly when people tire of it? Probably not, as there are a lot of people who still haven't bought one and so the experience will be new to them and their will always be the hardcore Nintendo fans to keep up the foundation. But will a significant number of those non-gamers stick with video games and want to upgrade the experience? I kind of doubt it since it's usually the challenge that makes you stick around (Achievements/Trophies are an excellent example of this in the short term). I really think most of these people are ultimately going to forget about the experience in general since they just want fluff and there's nothing really wrong with that, but it totally makes it a novelty.
There was a great point about how everyone had a NES, but not all these people moved on. I see a lot of the same thing for the Wii. Friends who haven't gamed since childhood see this and aren't scared away by way too many freakin buttons. Sure one friend buys crap games and barely knows how to operate the Wii settings, but there's others who are infatuated with the VC, and others who really appreciate No More Heroes and Zack and Wiki. It takes all types to keep the industry moving. I appreciate the other consoles and what they offer, and really resent it when the Wii is talked down simply because it offers a different type of experience. I'll take the colorful joy of Mario Galaxy on my inferior machine over any FPS with 1080p and 5 million shades of brown.
Other people love it, and that's all well and good, but I really regret buying the system.
Personally, my position on the Wii has reversed since it's inception. I was initially behind the innovative ideas and control scheme, and I knew Nintendo would deliver the first-party goods.
At first, the titles were about half and half. Half interesting games or "no-brainers" like Zelda or Mario and half, well, Red Steel and crap party games. I loved the Virtual Console and spent more time on there than I ever did playing disc-based titles. I felt satisfied with my purchase and support of the Wii. I wasn't "blown away" but things were good.
Time passed, and those same shelves were beginning to change. Now, I would look across shelf after shelf of horrible shovelware and titles I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, I became more and more upset with my decision. Even Nintendo's first party games ('cept Smash and Kart, mind you) were beginning to stink. The VC releases were less and less interesting. I kept feeling like Nintendo was holding out on me.
Stepping back to a parallel, about a year after the Wii launch I bought a High Def TV and an Xbox 360. As time passed, as the titles for the Wii became less interesting and more frustrating, I spent more and more time with my 360. I would play XBLA games and say, "Why couldn't the VC be more like this?" Soon, I had a huge stack of 360 titles. I was genuinely enjoying these games that I knew were made with players like me in mind. I felt... well, loved and appreciated. I felt like I was getting what I wanted when a feature I never thought I'd use suddenly became useful and awesome. With the Wii, I kept wishing, but nothing was being delivered.
I knew then as I know now that 3rd parties are partially to blame. There were great, original titles like No More Heroes, but things like Carnival Games and Big Beach Sports and PETZEZ are all I see now.
The break came when River City Ransom came out on the VC. I booted up the Wii for the first time in a long while and literally had to clean the system. A thick layer of dust had formed on it, and I hadn't even realized how long it had been there. The torch was passed. I was no longer a supporter of the Wii. It was 360 all the way.
It made me sad, though. I really wanted to be behind this "great and innovative" system. But, much like Fredo and Michael, it had broken my heart, and I had to have it shot out on a boat on the lake. Wait, wat...?
Anyway, Wii Ware has breathed some life into the ol' white box but frankly I still feel a little sadness when I think about what could have been. The Wii still has a few years left to go before it's replaced by whatever Nintendo cooks up next. My hope is that between now and then, Nintendo and our 3rd party shovelers get their acts together and really make this thing worth owning. Otherwise, there's a spot next to the N64 in my closet just waiting for the day.....
P.S. MAC AND CHEESE FTW!
i really dont think the wii is bringing all the gloom and doom "hardcore" gamers are predicting. in essence, the wii is just the changing of the guard, only with a twist though. first it was the nes, then the snes, playstation, playstation 2, and now the wii. none of those consoles were "hardcore," they just had more hardcore games. the only hardcore consoles id say ever existed were the master system, pc engine, neo geo, saturn, and dreamcast. what happened to all of those systems? they horribly undersold, and i dont think a hardcore console could do anything but. hardcore gamers still exist, but with gaming becoming more mainstream, we have a wider gap in casual and hardcore gamers, and in my opinion we now have what id like to call a "mainstream gamer." the guys that buy 360/ps3s for sports games, racing games, and a couple of fps games. thats by no means hardcore, but its more effort than a "casual" gamer. the idea that the 360 or ps3 are hardcore consoles is mostly laughable and due to the industries growth, i dont believe theres room for such a thing anymore.
you guys are right, i dont want halos, call of dutys, gears of wars and the likes on the wii. i wouldnt want to play traditional maddens, nba2ks, or fifas on the system either. what im predicting is that the wii is going to be the oddest console in history due to its library being extremely hardcore, and extremely casual. those odd quirky rpgs, 2d fighting games, and overall wth japanese games are probably all coming to the wii once the ps2 finally dies out. those games my friends are the most hardcore of them all in my eyes. the only games more hardcore than that are on pcs, not these watered down fps/rts games we have now.
what they need to do is release the next xbox with a mouse and keyboard and make it the console for the best non upgradeable living room pc experience. the next playstation should have the most mainstream experience with a good selection of epic rpgs and story telling games, what sony has always had a knack for providing on their consoles. and nintendo needs to marry their broad appeal with sega's arcade fervor and make the next wii the home to arcade ports AND mini games. thats the perfect conclusion folks.
I can't believe the game I'm most excited about is Animal crossing. They didn't even [i]mention[i/] some of the games I wanted to see. My 360 may be seeing more time.