Once again, we'd like to bring the rest of the world into our nice little robot corner and give them a peek into our unedited internal conversations. Why would you want to read such things? Because we happen to be hilarious, and we also have some very interesting points of views when it comes to video game current events.
In this week's edition, we start off by discussing Microsoft's Aaron Greenberg's statement that the people who buy Wiis are buying them as "novelty" items. As expected, every Wii hating editor jumps on this bandwagon while the "Defenders of the Wii" editors buckle down for some hardcore Wii defense.
It literally ends with Nick Chester and Johnathan Holmes arguing over which is the better game: Rock Band, or Wii Play.
Ready. Set. Discuss!
I already posted this in my scraps last Friday. I think this could be a nice Dtoid discussion. I kind of agree with Greenberg here, although I don't think many Wii owners will "graduate" to an MS or Sony console. It's more likely they'll purchase Nintendo's next console and/or drop gaming altogether. I agree that the Wii has a number of things that can appear to core gamers; that's not the issue. But the truth is that the bulk of Wii owners are not gamers in the typical sense, and many did pick it up because of the "novelty" of something like Wii Sports. I'm baffled when my Wii-owning friends (non-gamers) complain to me that there are "no good games" for the Wii, when I very clearly spelled out to them what they should expect.
I agree, too, Nick. However, I do believe that some Wii owners will "graduate" to a high def console. In fact, I've already seen it happen with some of my Wii-owning friends. In their case, they still defended the Wii but wanted more of a challenge and a better library of games, along with the streaming media features of other consoles.
You know I'll "discuss" this with you any day of the week. :)
I see nothing about the Wii that leads me to think that more people are buying it based on novelty than those who bought the PS2 for novelty, or any big name system for that matter. That happens whenever a console gets hyped. Despite that, the Wii still has the most diverse game library out of any of the current gen consoles (just as the PS2 did in its day) and that's why it will continue to win the current console "war".
I friend of mine just bought a Wii yesterday and asked me to come over with some games. Literally 8 hours later, after trying out Zack and Wiki, Brawl, Blast Works, both Resident Evils, No More Heroes, Galaxy, Mario Kart, Lost Winds, Geometry Wars, Endless Ocean, Super Paper Mario, Trauma Center, WiiFit, Battalion Wars 2, Metroid Prime 3, Zelda, and others, he said casually "The Wii is beating all the other systems because it has the most kinds of games, right?"
I'm mystified that my friend, a guy who bought a PS2 just to play sports games, who wouldn't be caught dead reading a video game magazine, can figure this out while so many "analysts" can't.
The 360 and the PS3 please a small amount of people a whole lot. That's what makes a good "bed room" console, one for teenagers and bachelors. The Wii, on the other hand, pleases everyone at least a little bit. That's what makes a good "living room" console, a console for people of any age and any lifestyle.
In my experience, good living room consoles win console wars. Greenburg is flat out wrong. It the living room consoles, not the bed room consoles, that offer the most varied and broad spectrum of game experiences, and therefore have the best chance of "converting" the most amounts of people into gamers. I imagine more people who start gaming with a 360 or a PS3 getting bored with the limited selection of genres in both consoles respective libraries, then move up to the Wii where the gaming landscape is much more unpredictable and and interesting.
The Wii has other games besides mini-games?
You guys make me frown. But I still love ya.
I have to go with Jonathon with this one. I've always enjoyed my experience with the Wii. Of course, no one made me review Boogie, but I think it's a damn fine console with generally good games. It's not like the PS3 and 360 won't see their fair share of shovel ware.
My problem is that I haven't found a single game on the Wii that I like. It seems like the best games on the Wii peaked at launch then have been slowly going downhill. I was hoping to see Wii games get more complicated and compelling, but it seems the opposite has happened. Madden 07, for example, had three speeds when throwing the ball, but Madden 08 only had two. Developers don't deny that they are trying to water down controls, either. This pattern of dumbing down game play is what turns me off so much.
My problem with the Wii is that I never played mine. That is not a criticism of the Wii or Nintendo -- they upheld their end of the bargain. Nobody else did. Apart from Capcom once or twice.
Joe, you are one respectful son-of-a-bitch. Good form, sir.
If it was a really good game, then of course I'd want to play it. Part of the reason I got rid of my Wii was for geographic purposes, not just because I wasn't playing it. When my immigration to the States is over, I will be getting it again. I don't hate the Wii, I hate the culture that's grown up around it. The Wii has some great games, some beautiful games -- all from Nintendo. And maybe two from Capcom.
You asked the root question that has been at the center of my Wii dilemma since launch! If there was a really good "hardcore" game on the Wii, would I play it? Is that what I really want at all, or do I just want better mini-games?
When I think of the Wii, I think of friends sitting around playing games together. A more "hardcore" game, like an epic RPG, doesn't really seem to fit there. Additionally, I'd much rather play a great epic RPG on my 360 or PS3, for too many reasons to list here. No, what I want are better mini-games.... GOOD mini-games... the kind of games that are fun for more than 10 minutes. That's what I want out of the Wii.
I want games like Tiger Woods with controls that truly simulate a golf swing. I want games that take true skill to master. I want games where the controls can't be taught just by looking at one picture. What I truly want out of the Wii are games that require more skill. I don't want to be the one to say how exactly that skill should be layed out because there are people out there who are so much smarter and more creative than I am.
That's interesting stuff, Joe. I would have never, ever thought someone would want more mini-games on the Wii.
I think my main issue is that I'm not completely sold (still) on the Wii's motion controls. Some of my favorite games on the Wii probably would have also been great experiences without motion controls, which I felt added very little to the experience. Super Mario Galaxy has it's handful of inspired and memorable motion-controlled gameplay portions, but I probably would have also enjoyed it with a GameCube controller.
Amen to that, Nick. I bought Wii component cables for a friend, but they can't make 480p look all that good when it's blown up to fit a 40" LCD.
I'd like to jump back a few comments and say that I think that a very large majority of Wii owners will 'graduate' to another console. I can easily use the NES and all of you as my examples.
Using GameStop customers as a gauge for what Wii owners are thinking probably isn't the most scientific of measures.
Huh. This is a tough one because I can actually see both sides.
As long as game designers offer up brand new experiences and satiate my need for creativity, I am happy. To me, all three consoles offer a handful of amazing games that fit my desire as a gamer. Is the amount of perfect games on each console equal? No. I would say the Wii and Xbox 360 are neck-and-neck with truly amazing games I would consider classics. The PlayStation 3 is a little behind, but they have so much potential to catch up. (Funny enough, the little Nintendo DS has them all beat.) Because of this equal distribution, I have yet to panic about the state of gaming. Instead of focusing on one console as doing something wrong, I look to the designers of games. And, for me, there are way more gaming missteps on the Xbox 360 than anything.
A lot of "non-gamers" are buying the Wii, but at least they are paying for a system birthed from creative thinking. I would be much more frightened if the top selling games of this generation were all muddy first-person shooters and violent crime-based dramas. Oh wait ...
In no way am I supporting some of the horrible, rushed products on the Wii. I am just less concerned about the Wii's future influence than I am the state of design in general.
In the world of video games, creativity should rule all. Once that is gone, gaming as we know it is dead.
How can you talk about scientific measures when your argument was "My friend came over and thought the Wii had good games?" It's not concrete end-all-be-all evidence, but Christ, I'm talking about observations of multiple customers here. True, a lot of people decided to purchase their respective systems based on one or two titles. In fact, why ELSE would someone choose to purchase one gaming console over the other? This is why everyone thought the doom of the Xbox 360 would be signaled by the launch of Metal Gear Solid 4, and sometime in the next eight years, Final Fantasy 13.
I speak without having done a scientific survey (that would involve leaving the house and talking to people), but I would imagine that a lot of people who purchased an Xbox 360 for Halo 3 also had a few other games in mind they'd like to play somewhere down the line. A great number of Wii owners do not; they jump into it blindly, excited about the notion of a "new type of game" that's fun to play with your family or with friends. You hear it a lot: "It's better than passively sitting down and pressing buttons on a controller." Yes, waving your arms is so incredibly different; feel the burn.
But I'm really not talking about WHY someone purchases their console of choice. I think it's more important to talk about WHO purchases the console. There's a significantly different demographic for the Wii and Xbox 360/PS3. The system has been appealing to "non-gamers" and families; I hear time and time again "If you have kids, buy them a Wii." Why is that? Because there are simple "children" games on the system, or because it has a wide variety of titles available for the system? Maybe it's both of those things -- who knows. But it's a pretty screwed up perception: out of the three consoles I own, my ten-year-old son plays the Xbox 360 the most, and we have a pretty decent library of Wii titles. He (like most children) is easily amused, though; I swear to God, he asked me where our copy of Carnival Games went (I called a priest over and exorcised it from our house).
And to combat your "I love Wii Play" comment, you're out of your God damned mind. I played it with my son and my nephew for fifteen minutes and I wanted to claw my eyes out of my head. It's like a collection of Flash games starring your Miis.
If I weren't knee deep in work, I'd dignify Nick's retort with a proper response. But I am, so I wont.
I will say this though. Next time you tell me I'm out of my mind, I'd suggest you preface it with "cotton pickin'" as opposed to "God damned". There is no reason to take the lord's name in vain. Plus, I'm part black, so the cotton thing actually has the potential to be more offensive.
Jonathan won. Not the argument, just everything else.
I'm confirming it right now that the Wii must have done something horrible to Nick after they left a party together and went back to his place drunk.
To comment on your kid loving the Wii:
So what if he plays Wii games? Are they somehow inherently less creative than the 360 games that he plays because he's a kid and therefore "easily amused." What type of 360 games is he playing?
My point is that your son sounds more like an average gamer: He takes a little both from what's available. He, I'm assuming, plays more complex games on his 360 than he does his Wii, but unlike all the crybabies out there he knows that the Wii offers different types of gaming fun.
Personally, I have only bought three games for my 360 and it sits there waiting for something awesome to arrive that isn't a rehashed FPS. I've enjoyed more play time on Wii with both the complex games it provides along with the more casual experiences. My 360 doesn't give me very much "casual" anything so it rarely gets used.
While everyone complains that there isn't enough non-minigames on the Wii, I feel that there isn't enough low key action on the 360. I'm not going to include a mention of XBLA because it's crap, but for a system that cost what it did, it's only providing me with half a gaming experience.
That's why I had to buy a Wii.
To answer your question: Yes, Wii Play and Carnival Games is less creative than Virtua Fighter 5, Rock Band, Skate, Geometry Wars, a boat load of XBLA games, and Ratchet and Clank: Future on our PS3. Sorry guys who programmed Wii Play and Carnival Games!
But to your point regarding "different types of gaming fun," no one is saying that what the Wii offers isn't "different," if that's what you want to call it. But really, where do you think the whole "most Wii games are a bunch of mini-games and sloppy ports" thing comes from? It's because it's -- get this -- actually kind of true. Just like your point that the 360 has a bunch of rehashed FPS games; no argument there ... it does.
How did we turn this into a Wii versus 360 argument? We're talking about the types of people who purchased a Wii. The soccer mom stereotype for the Wii is just as true as the "meat head" and "jock" stereotype for the Xbox 360 and its "rehashed" first-person titles.
Well that's the problem with everything this generation. In the last generation, we had a system that did the lot, the PlayStation 2. It had a slice of every genre, with your mainstream crowd pleasing party games like SingStar and your hardcore shut-in RPGs like Dragon Quest VIII. Nothing this gen has matched the catch-all factor that the PS2 had, which is a right shame, and that's why the so-called "hardcore/casual" demographics have appeared so divisive now.
I completely agree with you Jim regarding your PlayStation 2 example, but I don't see this as that much of a problem. Granted, buying all three consoles is really expensive and hard for most people, but I don't see a huge issue with each of the three consoles doing different things.
I never understand why people complain about what is "lacking" on the three major consoles. If you don't like what the Wii has to offer, don't buy one. If you don't like what the 360 has become, sell it. If you like certain things about both, buy both.
Even though all three systems admittedly have their negative issues, as gamers, we should be embracing this amazing time of diversity. I love that I can play Super Mario Galaxy and Big Brain Academy on my Wii, turn it off and load up BioShock on my 360, and then finish the day with some Metal Gear Solid 4. Even the simple act of holding different controllers puts a huge smile on my face in that it makes me appreciate how unique each console is and prevents me from every getting bored. I don't know if I want my Wii to have an epic RPG along the lines of Lost Odyssey just as I don't want my 360 to have motion control. I love my systems for what they are.
In a way, this heated competition will only make our games more creative and enjoyable in the long run.
Why don't you take this happy hippie bulls**t elsewhere, Chad? ;) Just kidding.
I think this pretty much sums it up. I just want to play good games and I'm happy. With that said, I certainly would not be happy if I only owned a Wii.
Still knee deep in work, so I can't say much, but I gotta call shenanigans on Nick for saying that Rock Band is in anyway more creative that Wii Play.
Rock Band is not a creativity based video game. It's an awesome karaoke machine for microphone, key-tar, and fake drums, but that's all it is. I love it, I respect it, but I'm well aware that it did not take any creativity to make it, it just took the know-how and strength of will to make a really good karaoke machine. Even the guys at Harmonix admit that.
As a fellow fan of Geometry Wars, I'm surprised you didn't appreciate Wii Play's Tanks a bit more, Nick. Maybe it is like a flash game, but no more so than GW is, and Tanks has co-op and 100 unique levels.
How does that not kick ass?
Now that I think about it, if I could only pick one at all to have, I don't think I would be happy with anything other than my DS.
If things keep going at the rate they're going now, the DS is going to be the PS2 of this generation, with pretty much every genre covered except FPS (which you should be playing on PC anyway).
Ha ha ha. I just reread what I wrote. Oh God, I am a hippie! NOOOOOOO! :) :)
Don't say that, Chad. Don't listen to Nick. You're no hippie. Name calling is always the last ditch attack of a man on the ropes.
Hippies don't batter, and your battering of Nick with your flawless, pro-Wii argument is living proof that you ain't no hippie.
Even if Chad got caught up in a hippie diatribe I'm still in total agreement with him here. The whole reason I have a DS, PS3, 360, PSP, Wii, and gaming PC is because I like playing everything. Sure, I prefer some genres more than others, but I'm still a total generalist when it comes to gaming. And, rather than complaining about an area where one platform may be lacking, will look to other systems to fill that particular need, whatever it might be.
Okay, I clearly forgot the meaning of diatribe when I wrote that. >.>
Wii vs 360!!!Wii vs 360!!!Wii vs 360!!!Wii vs 360!!!
Oh yeah, to respond to Nick's response:
I won't try to argue that what you say is true, I just wanted to see what games he was playing for both systems (him, not you Mr. Rock Band). There's no doubt that every system ever has garbage on it, and the Wii has more than its fair share, but the way you originally phrased your comment made it sound like your kid played the most Wii in the house, and only because he was a kid. As if kids are stupid or something and that's the only reason the system should be played.
If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that Carnival Games is the devil.
The art and animation alone in Rock Band requires more creative thought, attention and effort than anything in Wii Play. This is a ridiculous argument.
You can stick your fun fact regarding the sales of Guitar Hero III on the Wii. Here's a fun fact: the Wii version of Guitar Hero III is an inferior product in nearly every way when compared to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions of the title. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, really.
C'mon Nick, I don't want to be mean to the guys at Harmonix, but are you really trying to tell me you think the generic "rocker" character designs and their "rocking" animations of Rock Band took any real creativity to come up with?
Nick "I've just about had enough" Chester
The art design of Rock Band goes beyond the character design. Forget that for a second: the menu design in that game probably took more thought and effort than the entirety of Wii Play. And to step on the "originality or creativity" of Rock Band and then turn around and try to defend Wii Play in that light is crazy. How difficult do you think it was come up with "point at things and shoot" or "running by waggling two controllers" or "move a block to shoot at another block"?
I fucking love Bunnicula.
C'mon, Nick. You know that shit is Bunnicula all the way!
I got in a "Mega Man 2 vs Mega Man 3" battle with someone that lasted for days. Days of my life that I'll never get back.
When it comes to opinion, no one is right or wrong.
I can only assume that someone mentioned Zack and Wiki already? And I agree Joe, I want more of that too.
like how this conversation started about whether or not we agreed with Greenberg regarding Wii owners "upgrading" or whatever, and derailed into some argument about Wii Play versus Rock Band. I hope all of these discussion pieces go like this.
Oh yeah! The original point!
I hope by the end of the next Destructoid discusses, Nick and I end up debating about what's a better game, Halo 3 or No One Can Stop Mr Domino. I bet you can guess which game I'll be backing.
So... you are saying I got bunny surprise and didn't even realize it?
Yes, Joe. Maybe you're too used to the surprise by now ;)
Dyson, it might be a good idea to do a quick little recap at the end to remind people how we ended up here -- I certainly lost track of the conversation.
Thy will be done, Orcist.
So to cap it all up; Wii haters and Wii lovers all came together and drank Chad's hippie juice. Everyone then went on a "colorful voyage," and Nick learned to appreciate the Wii for all of its good-timey fun.
The juice eventually wore off, and Nick returned to his normal self, constantly denying the entire experience. Fortunately, Jonathan Holmes used the "pics or it didn't happen" rule of the Internet, and is now blackmaling Nick by forcing him to make Miis for the neighborhood children.
Fun, wasn't it? Now, of course, it's your turn. Novelty, or not? Wii Play, or Rock Band? Macaroni and Cheese, or Shells and Cheese?