And then bam my favourite character dies, and the other one i really didn't like lives. If i'd know i definitely would have gone the other way. I felt this decision left me way more emotional than any other game decision, like bioshock or mass effect. Im gonna load up an earlier save and do it the right way, although ill lose about 4 hours gameplay!
Surprisingly, I chose the "revenge" path, but not because I was excited about killing someone -- I just felt the other path was just as bad. To work for someone you despise, committing crimes, with no way of ever being "free?" I don't know. That choice of life didn't sit well with me.
I would have loved it if the game offered a choice with a little more moral high-ground. Maybe quitting the "business" altogether? I know that makes no sense in the context of the story, but I was upset I had to choose between two evils.
But I guess that may have been the point, huh? :)
The abruptness of the ending after Dimitri's death really, reaaallly bugged me as well. I seriously said, "Is that it?" afterwards. The last few hours of the game were so damn good, I was just hoping for a liiittttle something more.
Anyway, great article, you made some great points and opened my eyes to some new things.
It really really bummed me out when Kate died do. I was hoping that Niko could have made it out and married her or something. This game made me think of things before I did them. Even when I found that special someone, I didn't kill him. I let him live because he was so fucking strung out it didn't matter anymore.
Great Article!!! Everything you wrote was what I was thinking and couldn't put it into words.
The story line branches in GTA4 aren't that interesting, because they take place at the end of the individual subplots and therefore have little impact on the main plot.
My first ending was when Kate died, I had dated her about 10-15 times (trying to get sex) and Niko had opened up to her about his past, I really felt close to her and I was chocked up when she died. After I got revenge all I could do was walk around Happiness Island feeling physically terrible.
I don't think I have felt that close to a game character for a very long time.
I chose the anti-revenge path, tring to spare people wherever I went and I'm pretty sure I played right into the developers hands cause I the only rampage I went on before I beat the game, was right after Roman died.
As for roman. He was low life. He was family, but he wasn't a good person. And everything he did from his gambling to the people he surrounded himself with all lent themselves to an early grave. He may have been a lovable bafoon, but he was walking a hard line, and getting in way over his head.
Anyway, great article. I wasn't blown away nearly as much as you were with the ending, probably because I chose to seek revenge and had to kill Pegorino, a character who I barely even remembered (didn't play the game for 2 weeks before beating it).
I will say that I did love the very end after you kill Pegorino when Roman exclaims "You won!" and Niko just stands there looking like someone who was totally defeated by the evils he encountered, knowing that he would never get any sort of closure or inner peace. That was a really moving scene and the best part of the game IMO. Seeing the "You Won!" achievement was also really cool because you feel the exact same thing Niko felt: ambivalence and emptiness.
I really think you understated how much of an impact Kate's death was. To me, she represented a chance at a "normal" life (though she still is a McCreary). I couldn't bear to disappoint her by working with Dimitri.
I've heard the police computers list him as deceased after completing the game (though I've yet to confirm).
DLC perhaps?
Why? I just got used to Roman and I almost had tears in my eyes when I saw Mallorie crying over the botched marriage...
...so I went back a savegame and Kate never had hot coffie with me anyways... so.
You can't really say "Romans death means more to Niko than Kates" because if you went on the dates with her, though the dialogue you find out that Niko really does completely fall in love with her, so you could even argue that her death is more meaningful.
I think a lot of the choice also stems from scene with Darko. There was a lot of build up with Niko looking for him, but when the time finally came for a face-to-face meeting, it was a short scene. I think that if you spared Darko, it would make more sense to take "Deal," and the same thing applies to killing him and "Revenge." I ended up not killing Darko, because being alive was really more of a punishment for him. I chose "Revenge" because there is no way I was working with Dimitri again-as Niko put it "He has double-crossed everyone I've ever seen him work with."
good point, I tried it numerous times *GRRRR*
So, I did what Niko would do. Two people he loves have given him conflicting advice, and he needs time to think. I jumped into a car, put the radio on, and went for a drive. I must have cruised around Liberty City for a good twenty minutes or so - it almost felt like I was saying goodbye to the city. In the end, I decided that Kate was right. Roman would understand. And maybe, after one final act of vengeance, Niko could be learn to be happy with Kate.
Of course, I was wrong, and I couldn't believe a GTA game of all things had made me think so deeply. Well done Rockstar, and great article Rev.
Was there any difference in whether you killed the guy from Niko's past (I spared him, like I spared Dimitri)?
It was one of those transcendent moments in gaming where I had to put the controller down, have a smoke, and let what just happened sink in. (another moment of this sort would be the post-nuclear blast in CoD4)
I beat the game got 100% (i want my bloody key!) and the whoole time i said to myself (ill be the moral good guy) So...
SPOILERS
I let everyone i could live, i even let darko go and then at the end i thought. "Dimitri deserves to die thats the moral choice". How was i suppose to know the game is about forgiveness to the extreme. I thought it was just about making moral choices and letting lower people go even if wankers like that random black guy lives only for you to kill him later... fricking dick.
Since i had no use for the money (only thing i dont like bout the game as i loved the buying stuff aspect in vice city and there aint even enough costumes compared to bully) I chose revenge and though he lived I felt the rite person died for me (i didnt know that either would die and i wanted to honour kate, fricking women guilt tripped me)
So yeah end boss was a bit meh but i loved how your choice decided who you liked more. Now to rush it kill everything and kill roman.
Ugh...Way to insult players. You have no idea what a player who does certain thing does or thinks.
The revenge path I feel (since my opinion is not fact) was superior because it solidified that you were playing a scumbag with a tiny bright, pure light in your life. After all, this was a guy that would shout "I'm going to cut off your &*(^& head" during every firefight. Conversely, Roman was just as big a scumbag as you were so I was shocked he didn't buy the farm earlier in the game. He was just as disposable and useless as all the rest of the characters in the game.
The endings either choice were l-a-m-e and telegraphed miles away. After the D-grade dialog they tried (intentionally or unintentionally) to wrap it up with something powerful and fell flat in both cases. That feeling of depression and emptiness wasn't any deep emotional connection, it was the good old "That it?!?!" empty feeling of a poor ending.
...Of course that's my opinion.
oh god yes, failed 5 times till I tried it during the day and was finaly able to see the jump.
It just happened so sudden, it didnt feel like an ending at all!
They had something great, but they kinda missed it.
I would also like to point out that Kate does not condone taking revenge on Dimitri, Niko doesn't really mention his intentions in the call - she simply tells him not to sell out his principles for money. This is where there should have been another choice. Having let that 'special someone' live (since his life was worse than putting him out of his misery), surely there should have been the option to just walk away leave it all behind?
Interesting read this, though I think that while the concept and story are quite interesting, execution of things like 'choices and 'moral dilemmas' was VERY superficial and acted out with little to no discernable impact to the main story.
I really don't have much else to add, except that it's true that a person could see revenge as the moral choice, based on their individual gameplay experiences.
Based on my past GTA experiences I had a proconcieved notion of how GTA 4 was going to end. When I started GTA 4, one of the first things I did was Watch the TV. As I was watching the lifestyles of the rich and famous type show, I was thinking to myself, during this game I'm going to meet Tony McTony etc. and at the end I'll be running the city and be living in one of these mansions they are showing me.
What I ended up with at the end was a very hollow feeling as my favorite character Roman was dead and I had nothing but money and a few apartments to show for it. It was brilliant of Rockstar to focus on building family/friend relationships in this game instaead of building crime syndicates and business enterprises.
After Kate died I went outside my safe house in Bohan and found a nice car I had parked there earlier in the game. When I had originally parked it, I had planned on always parking it back in that spot so that I would always be able to keep that really nice car. After Kate died, I took that car out and trashed it. I felt empty inside. That car didn't matter anymore. Kate, who I had to actually build a relationship with, unlike Roman, was dead, and it was my fault. No video game ever effected me like this. And that is saying something.
After I beat the game, I went back to a previous save at the point where you can choose revenge or deal. I wanted to see what the deal ending was, and pretty much didn't care anymore when I saw that Roman died. I never like Roman and found his character annoying. Kate was Niko's shot at a normal life. She was innocent and didn't like Niko's criminal ways, but it was because of her connection with Niko that she died.
Demitri was obviously going to betray Niko again. He wasn't trustworthy enough to to make the deal with.
Of course Niko can't back out from either choices (to advance the story), so I had to get rid of Demitri.
In many ways, I believed that Demitri would go after Niko, Roman, or even Kate if I let him live. And I really didn't want Roman or Kate involved in Niko's mess anymore.
Of course Kate got mixed in his mess the worst way possible... Calling Packie up after the incident wasn't the least bit pleasant either. He talks about her a lot when Niko and him go out together afterwards.
The last words of Niko after the last mission was spot on. I can imagine how empty he felt after killing the bastard. That doesn't bring her back, that doesn't make him a hero. He didn't accomplish anything.
Both endings depend on how much you invested in the two characters. I don't think either were weaker than the other.
I think the ending was meant to be depressing and empty. Crime doesn't pay, it just hurts the individual and everyone around them.
I guess its obvious that a disagree with your last bit.
only part of the article i didn't agree with. i chose the revenge route because in talking to Kate it seemed to be the only way out of "the life" (to stop killing, i'd need to kill one last person). funny enough, after Kate's death and revenge on Pegorino, i'd like to believe Nico is finally out of the life.
otherwise, spot on article.
And I question the Reverend's questioning of my intelligence in choosing to execute Dimitri, but good article nonetheless.
As for the article, I chose the path of revenge, because I believed that was the moral choice for Niko, as he stated while talking to Kate that he had made a promise to himself that he would not work for Dimitri again. Also as I saw it, killing Dimitri would be the best way to leave a life of crime. With Dimitri out of the picture, Niko would be free of threats from anyone. Hence, I found the Pegorino drive by far more unexpected than the Dimitri hit, since I knew Dimitri was far from out of the picture (also because I had already saw the revenge ending). However, the way that rev puts it, the greed choice seems to be moral from a more universal standpoint. Either way, the choice that YOU end up making will end up having a greater effect on YOU. All in all, the ending was great either way, especially with the touch of the after ending phone calls you get from either Roman and Packie, or Mallorie and Kate. Packie being in near tears on the phone is amazingly effective.
Yes, I realize knowingly letting Pegorino bring his wrath upon me and killing Kate in the process was a stupid thing to do... but in the end, isn't dealing with someone you KNOW will betray you stupid, too? This isn't a matter of one choice being more intelligent: you're stuck with a choice you don't want to make, and forced to make it.
Rockstar is able to show the player that the so called "morality" decisions of virtually every western RPG in the past 10 years(though especially the Bioware games and Bioshock) are, for all intents and purposes, irrelevent. Real choice and real decision making won't come from a devotion or opposition to morallity, but from putting a player in front of a choice that has no clear outcome. Give the player an oppertunity to look at his own actions in the cold light of day, and they may learn something about themselves.
When the time came for Niko to deal with his initial objective, I chose to be better than his revenge.At the same time, the minute money was on the table, in an attempt to sway my choices, I imediatly gave way to my baser inpulses.
I must be pretty messed up.
I wrote afew[url=http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Droll/violence-action-story-why-is-gta-iv-so-different--85487.phtml/]C-blog[/url} entries on the nature of GTA's story, why it's so compelling, and why THIS entry is so compelling. I cound't use spoilers though, since it was so close to the games release.
I made it once using first person only to be hit by a random RPG while climbing in.

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