@ koehler83

Did you read Jim's post or even comprehend what Jaffe was saying?

My question for Jaffe is this: Do I own the game I purchased or just the license? As a consumer, I need to be concerned about this and should be involved in this debate.

It is our business. Jaffe may have meant it in a non-mean way, but it does concern us; we are the ultimate end-user, and while it's a nice thought that the developers may want to be our white knight in the matter, it is our dollars and our time at stake.

If there were a way wherein we aren't going to be affected regardless of the outcome, then yes, we should step aside. But however this turns out, we're the ones who get it in the face, and thus it is in our best interest to be involved, stay aware, and make sure we're heard. Jaffe's basically patting us on the head and telling us to butt out of the grown-up's business, it doesn't or shouldn't concern us so long as we get the product at what is deemed a reasonable price.

People who trade and buy used at Gamestop are tools.

Interesting... I was with you until I saw this statement...

"All the consumer should worry about is, can I get the best deal possible?"

When taken literally, he's absolutely right. I don't care whether used games exist or not, I only care that I can get a game for a price I'm willing to pay. Unfortunately that's where the spirit of his statement is faulty. If there is no used game market there's no incentive for publishers and game producers to keep prices reasonable.

As for digital distribution, CDs are still selling years after a decent digital distribution network for music has come into being. Yes, they are selling at reduced levels, but is that because of digital distribution, piracy (as the RIAA would have us believe), or just a lousy product (as most consumers would claim)? There are still a significant number of households that do not have broadband access. Until that is ubiquitous the (gaming) industry cannto switch completely to a digital distribution model. And that's going to take more than a few years.

What nilcam said.

When I purchase a product, no matter what the hell it is, what I decide to do with it after that fact is completly up to me. As long as I'm not doing anything illegal with it the company that sold it to me has no say in the matter. You transfered OWNERSHIP of the product to me when you sold it to me. If I decide to sell it on ebay, guess what? I can. If I decide to trade it in for credit for another game guess what? I can.

I get what he's trying to say, though adding the "it's none of the consumer's business" bit could be viewed either way (he's being a dick or he's speaking the truth).

We should go for the best deal, and the used game argument needs to be worked out between game companies and the retailers without using the consumers as pawns. I think that's the point he was trying to get across.

Or, maybe he was saying we need to keep our dirty little noses out of it.

Still, I think the used game business is exactly like every other used product business; used cars, used computers, used toasters, used condoms...wait, that last one isn't a good one (look, a joke!).

The argument that a game developer spends millions of dollars to create a game and therefore shouldn't get screwed by the used game business is a crock; what about car companies that spend a fuck-ton of cash to develop new cars? And the money they use to test them, market them, build them, and whatever else they spend money on before the car gets to your hands? You can go off and sell that car to whoever you want, and they in turn can either keep it or make a profit on it by re-selling the car for a higher price than what they paid for it.

Thing is, car companies can and do have dealerships that buy and sell used cars. I know developers can't set up retail stores to do the same, but maybe they can do some sort of online trade-in system...or hell, do what Atlus does and give the consumer bonus stuff when they buy a new copy of the game, instead of threatening us with the "digital distribution is coming and we're going to rape you with it". Think outside the box, developers and publishers, instead of whining about capitalism.

I find it hard to believe it's "none of our business" when i'm paying for a game I want to be my business.

You can't hate people for wanting to be cheap or find the best buy at times. Especially when games these days are either "meh" or living nowhere near the hype developers push out for it.

@Shoop

Digital distribution will only make it worse. They can price it however they want and there's no alternative other than piracy. Not to mention the ungodly price of consoles once games are ripped directly there; how much space is the average person going to need?

@JamnOntheOne


Do we own anything we purchase, then?

I'm a buyer for a maritime company and so far as the vendors are concerned, once I've bought it, it's mine. I'm not renting it or buying the right to sell that product name or use it for the time being. I can mark it up as I please, sell it to whomever I please (with exception to hazmat laws, something not applicable to video games), and I can tinker with it, paint it, use it to summon Ixpah because it's mine. I can't physically recreate the exact item and re-sell it due to copyright and patent protection- this doesn't stop it from being mine until I sell it to another company. The product is their 'intellectual' property insomuch as they hold the patent. But it's still my property.

Why the hell is a game any different?

Call me old fashioned but, I'm gonna miss the days of physical media. I hope when the industry completely shifts to digital they get DRM sorted out. If my Xbox gets repalced I souldn't have to jump through hoops to access my content on a new machine.

Also miss the manuals. Part of the charm of a game like Fallout 3's is the manual..well for me anyway.

Why is there a difference between a book, a game, an industrial product and said ice cream sandwich? (Besides the blatantly, cold and creamy obvious.)

Not asking to be an ass, asking seriously. Why in the world does visual media get that sort of preference?

JamnOnTheOne, where did you get that info about licensed products?

Also, this:
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/5/454495_100528_front.jpg

Maybe if they made games that are worth purchasing brand new.

I really don't buy used games. Most retailers (i'm looking at you gamestop) only give you a discount of what 5$. F that i'll take my factory sealed copy for 5$ extra. Also trade in values are terrible with only AAA titles netting you any real cash and those are the ones you'll likely want to play again someday.

@Valentia X

"Do we own anything we purchase, then?"

Certainly, the problem is the differences between physical media (cars, bikes, boats, books, computer hardware) and "virtual" media (games, music, dvds, VHS tapes).

I suggest you read up on the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) also check out the user manual for your games as they have EULAs (most new ones do) in the back page to see what your rights ACTUALLY are as you are implicitly accepting the EULA when you open the shrink wrap.

Hell, drag out your Wii, 360, or PS3 manual and read that EULA. It's eye opening as to what is contained in the console EULA. Again, by opening the package you are accepting the EULA that restricts your usage of the physical device that you just purchased.

"we the people" live in this imaginary thing called a free world. or democracy or whatever (which is all B.S. or course)

the peaple should be able to decide whats right and whats wrong, and everything is our business.

in an ideal world i guess

LOL "funny paper" that was good! Mr. Jaffe I want my Twisted Metal on PS3 soon please!

If I was forced to keep the Spider-Man 3 game, I would not be a happy camper. The pre-owned game market means that I can get rid of the crappy games that I accidentally buy, and I don't have to feel so worried when I take a risk on a game.

This is just my analogy, but anybody in the gaming biz who's trying to equate used game sales with, I dunno, bootleg liquor is absolutely out of their mind.

And I like Timstuff's comment. If somebody was forced to keep a crappy game (like Episode 1: The Phantom Menace back in 1999) and there wasn't anything they could do to try to get something back out of it....wow.

If that scenario existed where I *HAD* to throw down $60, and if I didn't like it I couldn't get jack frickin' crap for it, I'd be afraid to throw down my dollars for hardly ANY game that I wasn't already familiar with.

I don't care what qualifier Jaffe puts in front of his spiel, even if he admits games should be cheaper.

He's talking about choking off the consumer owning a physical property when he says digital distribution will "fix" the problem of used game sales. Again, my bootleg liquor analogy. What "problem" is there in getting Mass Effect for $15 used a year after it comes out for $60?

How many people would REALLY buy a fucking Madden game EVERY YEAR if they couldn't turn around and trade that sumbitch in before the next year's edition comes out?

Dude, seriously. How many fucking hands would've games like Psychonauts or Beyond Good and Evil gotten into if there weren't some second-hand copies circulating around that could be passed on to other consumers? Would those games even be *made* anymore if 50,000 copies of them all sat on shelves and nobody was buying them for $40-$50 when they came out?

Who is Jaffe, oh high and mighty God of War 1 Director, to call down the lightning and say that "OH NOES, USED GAME SALES IS WRONG, SO WRONG. WE WANT ALL YO DIRTY LIL CHILLUN'S MONEY FOR OURSELVES AND EVERY OTHER DEVELOPER OUT THERE."

Though his language is veiled, Jaffe sounds like a frickin' Ayn Rand disciple to me. Get what the hell you can and absolutely forget about everything and everybody else. That's awful.

The game industry has grown larger than the U.S. motion picture industry, but I don't hear Paramount, Fox, Universal, et al complaining about USED DVD sales taking coin out of their pocket. Not yet anyway. Some of those damn pigs might follow the frickin' game industries acorns complaining about used movie sales and start hollering.

Let's outlaw flea markets and pawn shops! CLOSE ALL GAMESTOPS and independent game stores! Shut them ALL DOWN and get ALL your games now and forever through the cable line. And if your game system's memory fills up from all your games, buy another overpriced, $120 hard drive.

Ridiculous. Ridiculous. RIDICULOUS.

It's amazing how utterly DUMB consumers are.

1. It is none of our business.
If you honestly believe that then go down to sony, capcom, etc.. and explain your case and see how seriously they will take you.

2. But the customer is always right.
No! It's one of the misunderstood sayings of all time. This self righteousness attitude where consumers feel that somehow we are OWED this because we pay. That simply just isn't the case, you conscious decision to consider the purchase before hand, hence the direct contradictory saying that exists, "let the buyer beware"

2. Want to send a message that will change the industry?
Simple, think a game is too much, DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME!!! YOU DON'T NEED HALO 3, Killzone 2, FF 1236757, etc. The customer is always right, in that sense because the industry will always follow the money. If McDonalds saw that all of sudden people wanted shit sandwiches, guess what, a new McShitty Sandwich would be on their menu in a second.

So want to be that "Always right consumer" then hold on to your money and DON'T spend, not spend then demand all this.. So look for the best deal, and the industry WILL follow, it's a machine that is fueled by money.