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Regardless of whether or not the argument was really all that significant, how can you NOT argue with that blogger? I took one look at his picture and instantly had my fill of the whole vocal malcontent bit I'm sure he's got going on.
Guy needs a shave.
Guy needs a shave.
While I don't agree with him all the time I find this unfortunate since I enjoyed hearing what he had to say. I sympathize with the need to try to explain your position to someone but finally realizing that the other party is not actually listening to what you have to say and is just reiterating the same point.
I can imagine the frustration of having your words twisted all the time. Still, I don't particularly care what he has to say in the first place.
That's a bummer, I enjoyed reading his tweets. Sure he is an opinionated guy, but he is really the only game dev that puts himself out there with his opinions about the industry. I would like to have more Devs out there that actually have a pair and talk about what is on their mind.
Basically this means everyone, EVERYONE on the internet is gonna talk pure shit about David until he gives those three games away. In other words, he should just stay away from the internets. Also, he should've gone to Famous Daves today as they would've given him a free $15 meal for having the name David.
Something tells me David Jaffe is going to be short 180 bucks. Anyone wanna take bets?
@Klempky: 20 bucks says that guy also works for Vimeo. Hipster Beards are all the rage.
@Klempky: 20 bucks says that guy also works for Vimeo. Hipster Beards are all the rage.
Alright, here's my feeble attempted of luring him out and netting a free game:
KRAToS SUXX I GOT MIEN USED 4 $5 LOL
KRAToS SUXX I GOT MIEN USED 4 $5 LOL
I just read the entire bloggers' chat with Jaffe(and another industry person joined in later). My conclusion is that Jaffe and the other guy were way out of their league. The blogger, while an admitted asshole, was right. I am one of those people that if everything goes digital distribution, I'm done with gaming. Unless they drop the price to the cost of a DVD.
I like Jaffe and his games and all, but really, this is a pretty horrible attempt at some publicity.
OMG FREE GAME, JAFFE.
OMG FREE GAME, JAFFE.
Define "Shut the fuck up", cause if I kick him in the man berries he will probably ssay something and BAM!!!!! free game.
I do not think Jaffe was misinterpretted. He either wanted developers to get a cut whenever a game is re-sold - which would reward bad game design by giving the developer a cut every time someone unsatisfied with a game decides to sell it back - or he wants to go digital distribution, which many gamers agree would kill all but the most established and trusted franchises.
Yeah that blogger is defiantly a little shit disturber. If you know someone has a short fuse and you push his buttons in the right way, you can easily make them out to be the bad guy, while you just stand back claiming your the one whose calm and not instigating. So it comes to this!
Dear David Jaffe, Im your loyal fanboy who loves your games and sometimes doesnt listen to your every word. Lets say you offered me a free game that had your name attached to it (like Twisted Metal on PS3 for a example) I would slap you in the face for being silly and pay full price for it. When its a developer I like, I think rewarding them for there effort is appropriate. I respect your work Mr. Jaffe and love your games. Done and done, but that's me, and others my not share my opinion, which is fine.
Dear David Jaffe, Im your loyal fanboy who loves your games and sometimes doesnt listen to your every word. Lets say you offered me a free game that had your name attached to it (like Twisted Metal on PS3 for a example) I would slap you in the face for being silly and pay full price for it. When its a developer I like, I think rewarding them for there effort is appropriate. I respect your work Mr. Jaffe and love your games. Done and done, but that's me, and others my not share my opinion, which is fine.
Wow, this whole exchange makes Jaffe and Clarke look like total douches. I don't understand why they feel devs are entitled to a cut of used game sales--they've already made their profit for the product, why should they get to make a profit twice? If Jaffe truly wants me to own my game, he should not be getting any money when I sell it back to another retailer. That sort of system might be convenient for him because it gives the game industry more money, but it doesn't make it right!
The sad part is, I know how Jaffe is rationalizing this--he wants to turn games into music and other forms of media, where you don't actually own the product and simply pay for a license to use it, so devs can charge each person who buys their game full price and get a nice cut of the sale. That's what we'll be getting if games go all digital--we already don't own any of the content we've purchased from the PSN or Xbox Live (hence the limited number of machines we can use them on). But what I don't understand is, how is that fair to the consumer?
The sad part is, I know how Jaffe is rationalizing this--he wants to turn games into music and other forms of media, where you don't actually own the product and simply pay for a license to use it, so devs can charge each person who buys their game full price and get a nice cut of the sale. That's what we'll be getting if games go all digital--we already don't own any of the content we've purchased from the PSN or Xbox Live (hence the limited number of machines we can use them on). But what I don't understand is, how is that fair to the consumer?
I give him 2 weeks max. Jaffe is kind of an ass hole and someone will say something he doesn't like, so he won't be able to resist. Not that I care, he is a great dev and has made plenty of good games.
I actually completely agree with him, used game sales need to die. I don't really agree with going all digital though, I like my boxes, but I am sure it is going to happen eventually whether I like it or not. Registering a game to some kind of network would work... on PC we pretty much already do this with more than half our games.
The simple fact is a game is not a car, it does not lose value as it is passed around from person to person... everyone gets the game experience. This is why media has a whole different idea of "ownership" than most other products. Person 5 on the Gamestop chain of used sales gets the game game experience as person 1, but only person 1 contributed to the development cost.
It is inevitable we will go all digital too, so arguing against it is pretty silly.
The simple fact is a game is not a car, it does not lose value as it is passed around from person to person... everyone gets the game experience. This is why media has a whole different idea of "ownership" than most other products. Person 5 on the Gamestop chain of used sales gets the game game experience as person 1, but only person 1 contributed to the development cost.
It is inevitable we will go all digital too, so arguing against it is pretty silly.
@StingingVelvet--Thank you for a sensible explanation of the rationale for why media is licensed to rather than owned by consumers. I do believe that it's a bit more complicated to say that a physical copy of a game doesn't lose value or that it's the same experience for everyone when you take into account disc quality, included booklets, cover art, etc. (which may be damaged or absent from a used copy and can often affect price). I won't get into my feelings on digital distribution because I haven't really ironed them out yet. But while I disagree with your argument, I don't consider you a douche like Jaffe and Clarke :)
I see what he's saying but I bet he's just looking for a reason not to do that shit anymore. Must be a pain in the ass.
So essentially the first three people to provoke Jaffe enough to get a rise out of him get a free game? I predict this will not end well.
@ Stinging Velvet - CD's and DVD's don't lose their value over time either - it doesn't make them immune to the used DVD and CD markets. First sale doctrine still apllies - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
Besides, the only reason there is a used game market is that people wish to return games they have played and never play said games again. Ever. Every used game on the market represents a customer that the game failed to fully satisfy, a lost customer. This means the solution to the used game issue is to make games people don't ever want to sell back to the retailer, and to stop losing customers on games. One protection against resale is strong multiplayer, another defense is to make a game with gameplay people never tire of - Tetris mastered this technique, but exceptional blockbuster games, such as Mario and Kingdom Hearts, tend to protect themselves for being resold by being enjoyable after multiple playthroughs. Using such techniques protects games from losing their value after a single playthrough, and eliminates the need for a used game market - a dumping ground for games the stopped satisfying customers after a short period of time.
Besides, the only reason there is a used game market is that people wish to return games they have played and never play said games again. Ever. Every used game on the market represents a customer that the game failed to fully satisfy, a lost customer. This means the solution to the used game issue is to make games people don't ever want to sell back to the retailer, and to stop losing customers on games. One protection against resale is strong multiplayer, another defense is to make a game with gameplay people never tire of - Tetris mastered this technique, but exceptional blockbuster games, such as Mario and Kingdom Hearts, tend to protect themselves for being resold by being enjoyable after multiple playthroughs. Using such techniques protects games from losing their value after a single playthrough, and eliminates the need for a used game market - a dumping ground for games the stopped satisfying customers after a short period of time.
The thing is, I don't think that most people are misconstruing Jaffe's views. He thinks that the people who made the game should get a cut of the profit from used game sales. And failing that the game companies should push for digital distribution. Most people seemed to understand that and simply disagree.
Jaffe isn't attacking used game sales, morons! He's warning you that if Gamestop and other used game sellers don't make some kind of a deal that the platform holders are going to take their ball and go home and we'll all be buying everything digitally and not able to resell ANY of it. And like he told that stupid evil bastard you can all go fuck off if you don't like it because enough people will keep buying games regardless of whether they can be resold that it won't matter if you stop buying them.
Jaffe is a complete dick a lot of the time (one of the reasons that people like him), but he was totally right to lay into that douche nozzle. Everyone likes to scream "free market" and shit when publishers/developers criticize used game sales, but you guys seem to have forgotten that they have every right to not sell their products in physical packages. A used copy of a game is just as much of a competitor for a publisher as any rival's product, and more so because the customers aren't going to buy a new copy and ALSO a used copy. Maybe it's a jackass move to get rid of physical media (I certainly like having discs, most of the time) but why should they be creating their own competition when they don't have to?
Seriously, is everyone around here fucking stupid?!?!!
Jaffe is a complete dick a lot of the time (one of the reasons that people like him), but he was totally right to lay into that douche nozzle. Everyone likes to scream "free market" and shit when publishers/developers criticize used game sales, but you guys seem to have forgotten that they have every right to not sell their products in physical packages. A used copy of a game is just as much of a competitor for a publisher as any rival's product, and more so because the customers aren't going to buy a new copy and ALSO a used copy. Maybe it's a jackass move to get rid of physical media (I certainly like having discs, most of the time) but why should they be creating their own competition when they don't have to?
Seriously, is everyone around here fucking stupid?!?!!
Jaffe reminds me of Vic Ireland's uncanny ability to get into the lamest arguments in public forums. At least he knows he should cool it for awhile...
He was definitely just looking for an excuse to get away from the publicity stuff, I think. If you watched his STFU @ Anthony Burch vid, this is pretty obvious.
I'm actually a little disappointed by this, even if I don't really play his games or watch his videos often at all. Any time you get anybody stimulating the minds of the gaming community (or any community really) and make them re-evaluate an issue, is good in my eyes. Jaffe had a pretty brash way of doing this, but at least it worked. He had some seriously valid points, even if I didn't agree with his almost troll-like, hateful methods.
I'm actually a little disappointed by this, even if I don't really play his games or watch his videos often at all. Any time you get anybody stimulating the minds of the gaming community (or any community really) and make them re-evaluate an issue, is good in my eyes. Jaffe had a pretty brash way of doing this, but at least it worked. He had some seriously valid points, even if I didn't agree with his almost troll-like, hateful methods.
Wait so he basically created GoW?
And he gets shit thrown at him constantly? WTF is wrong with this picture?!
And he gets shit thrown at him constantly? WTF is wrong with this picture?!
@ Hcapt
The problem with your theory is I don't enjoy puzzle games or multiplayer games, and I don't want all games to turn into that. I like storyline driven singleplayer RPGs and FPS games, and I don't want that to die off.
Every used game is an unsatisfied customer? That's just crazy talk. Most people have no collector's desire... they play through Bioshock and then they have no need for it anymore... they might have loved the game, they just don't intend to play it ever again. My girlfriend never watches a movie more than once, but that doesn't mean she has never been satisfied by a movie in her life.
Anyway, as I said games going digital is going to happen, for this reason and many others, so it matters little in the end. It's like debating how fast lava kills you as it rolls down the mountain towards us. We are already the only media type to have online exclusives, and we get more and more of them as time goes on.
The problem with your theory is I don't enjoy puzzle games or multiplayer games, and I don't want all games to turn into that. I like storyline driven singleplayer RPGs and FPS games, and I don't want that to die off.
Every used game is an unsatisfied customer? That's just crazy talk. Most people have no collector's desire... they play through Bioshock and then they have no need for it anymore... they might have loved the game, they just don't intend to play it ever again. My girlfriend never watches a movie more than once, but that doesn't mean she has never been satisfied by a movie in her life.
Anyway, as I said games going digital is going to happen, for this reason and many others, so it matters little in the end. It's like debating how fast lava kills you as it rolls down the mountain towards us. We are already the only media type to have online exclusives, and we get more and more of them as time goes on.
That blogger completely destroyed Jaffe's argument.
Also, great posts Hcapt. I have no need to make a long post since you already wrote basically anything I'd say. I look forward to you possibly deconstructing what StingingVelvet posted.
Also, great posts Hcapt. I have no need to make a long post since you already wrote basically anything I'd say. I look forward to you possibly deconstructing what StingingVelvet posted.
Ugh, he finally did what I've wanted him to do for years. Ok, you made God of War, that's great, I love your game. But stop being so obnoxious all the time. You don't see Kojima causing a ruckus.
It's because of guys like that why we can't have nice things. David Jaffe isn't a bad guy maybe a little easily wound up but not a bad guy. I agree with him that developers deserve a cut of used game sales profits otherwise they'll just go digital.
I could have a longer answer here, but I don't feel like typing a whole lot, so in simple words:
Jaffe is a douchebag, and he's just flat out wrong on his stance. I don't care what you say, but once you pay for a game, just like a book or DVD or something, it becomes YOUR game. At this point, you can do whatever the hell you want with it (Save for something illegal, of course). It's being unfair to the consumer if you aren't letting them make a choice with THEIR game. Honestly, and I don't care how much flak I get for this, but Jaffe sounds very greedy when he says this stuff.
Jaffe is a douchebag, and he's just flat out wrong on his stance. I don't care what you say, but once you pay for a game, just like a book or DVD or something, it becomes YOUR game. At this point, you can do whatever the hell you want with it (Save for something illegal, of course). It's being unfair to the consumer if you aren't letting them make a choice with THEIR game. Honestly, and I don't care how much flak I get for this, but Jaffe sounds very greedy when he says this stuff.
David Jaffe doesn't get misrepresented. He just talks shit and is completely unable to see things from someone else's point of view or concede he is mistaken.
At least he's a great example of that sister of gamer entitlement - developer entitlement.
At least he's a great example of that sister of gamer entitlement - developer entitlement.
omfg....he is a fucking lil child who needs attention....when i shut up i dont need to tell the world that i will...what an ARSCHLOCH!
He's just being human. He wants his money, and given that the media is pretty much in formation still, he'll do his best to make sure he gets the most profit possibile. Anyone saying that about movie DVDs would be deemed a numbskull. However, given the fact that developers can pretty much determine the way videogaming is going, being it a somewhat niche market(most of which doesn't really care if it goes 100% digital or not), he'll do his best to make sure the ones that pour their hard work into making the game get the biggest share possible.
I get THIS point of his, but the used games argument is just plain stupid. It completely ignores the very meaning of OWNERSHIP and, for that, I consider him not an idiot, but someone who just doesn't think all that much about what he's saying, and while you could argue that he's an outspoken, tru-to-the-heart person, I prefer considering him someone that should just re-read what he posted under the light of basic human trade of goods' common sense. He's pretty much proposing to make physical gaming acquisition a loan for use agreement. And he's using pretty lame arguments in the way.
Anyway, if all else fails, there's still Nintendo to keep the video game trade conservative.
I get THIS point of his, but the used games argument is just plain stupid. It completely ignores the very meaning of OWNERSHIP and, for that, I consider him not an idiot, but someone who just doesn't think all that much about what he's saying, and while you could argue that he's an outspoken, tru-to-the-heart person, I prefer considering him someone that should just re-read what he posted under the light of basic human trade of goods' common sense. He's pretty much proposing to make physical gaming acquisition a loan for use agreement. And he's using pretty lame arguments in the way.
Anyway, if all else fails, there's still Nintendo to keep the video game trade conservative.
@ Stinging Velvet - Well, once again, a title can be defended from resale by being good on multiple playthroughs. If I can play a title once and know that I will desire to play it a second time in the future because the first playthrough was so good, then the game deserves to not enter a significant factor in the used game market. Note that while Twilight Princess has been resold, it remains popular enough that it is still in production and being sold at full value.
Incidently, the Wii is the defense against digital distribution, and the failure of the PSP Go will kill digital distribution for a long time. Nintendo has never shown any animosty towards the used game market that I am aware of, and their titles strongly protect themselves from resale.
Come to think of it, by definition, ownership means the right to trade, sell, or give away something you possess. You can't really own amnything you have no control over.
Incidently, the Wii is the defense against digital distribution, and the failure of the PSP Go will kill digital distribution for a long time. Nintendo has never shown any animosty towards the used game market that I am aware of, and their titles strongly protect themselves from resale.
Come to think of it, by definition, ownership means the right to trade, sell, or give away something you possess. You can't really own amnything you have no control over.
I think the point that a lot of people here are missing is that Dave Jaffe isn't threatening Digital Distribution like some mafia thug. He is merely pointing out that as an industry, that is where we are headed. And we are headed there much quicker becauase of Gamestop's used games trade. Again, he is not threatening anybody.
@SpectreMan
The guy who made Twisted Metal 2 possible does not need to prove himself.
@Hcapt
I thought your first post was a good one but this second one is a little weak. I agree with most of your points, the idea I want to highlight and talk about is the idea that digital distribution will die off when the PSPgo fails. First of all you're assuming that the PSPgo will fail. I don't see this happening but it's impossible to know. Even if it did fail however, that wouldn't mean the death of digital distribution for a long time. Rather, it would prove that DD only platforms aren't yet feasible. But make no mistake, DD on platforms which also have physical media will never go away, not as long as there is an internet. And as time goes on, DD only devices will become more and more practical.
@SpectreMan
The guy who made Twisted Metal 2 possible does not need to prove himself.
@Hcapt
I thought your first post was a good one but this second one is a little weak. I agree with most of your points, the idea I want to highlight and talk about is the idea that digital distribution will die off when the PSPgo fails. First of all you're assuming that the PSPgo will fail. I don't see this happening but it's impossible to know. Even if it did fail however, that wouldn't mean the death of digital distribution for a long time. Rather, it would prove that DD only platforms aren't yet feasible. But make no mistake, DD on platforms which also have physical media will never go away, not as long as there is an internet. And as time goes on, DD only devices will become more and more practical.
Jaffe's argument was totally misrepresented - he says that if the games industry is losing money on selling hard copies, then they will move there - much like how the music industry was FORCED (as les even says "taken kicking and screaming") to move to digital distribution.
It's a different scenerio, but the same idea: the music industry bit themselves by forcing up the prices on CDs, making consumers move to digital distribution because it was so much cheaper
It's a different scenerio, but the same idea: the music industry bit themselves by forcing up the prices on CDs, making consumers move to digital distribution because it was so much cheaper
Agree or disagree, this move sounds kind of like attention whoring. People stopped talking about what he said so he raised a stink with anyone who "got him wrong." People stopped talking about the stink so now he's making a big deal about "going away for a while." Mr. Jaffe, do it or don't do it. I have nothing against you and I'm pretty indifferent on the whole thing. But don't make a big show of it, as if you're expecting the entire Internet to sob and beg you to please stay.
Conclusion: gamers are split on the issue of used game sales and digital distribution.
In other news: if Jaffe slowed down and chilled out he might have better results in his arguments.
I guess I don't see how used game sales is any different from used books, movies, or music sales. They're all media, all stricken with the same copyright and first-sales issues. But you can still sell these things used without paying a cut to the creator a second time. Some might see this as injustice, but I just see it as not paying the creator twice for the same copy of the product. And I think its a little soon to assume all games are going digital distribution in the next 5 years.
In other news: if Jaffe slowed down and chilled out he might have better results in his arguments.
I guess I don't see how used game sales is any different from used books, movies, or music sales. They're all media, all stricken with the same copyright and first-sales issues. But you can still sell these things used without paying a cut to the creator a second time. Some might see this as injustice, but I just see it as not paying the creator twice for the same copy of the product. And I think its a little soon to assume all games are going digital distribution in the next 5 years.
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