MS should heavily promote their top quality Indie games the same way they do for their XBLA titles. The Winter Uprising promo helped a lot, they should do more as well.

Also, LIMIT THE FUCKING AVATAR TITLES.

There's a pretty big difference between Steam and XBLIG. Steam is curated and all games must pass an approval process to be permitted on the store. XBLIG is not curated and the only quality measures are a peer review for offensive content.

So... when is the PSN version coming then?

oh pc is mostly windows anyway so not that big a loss for ms if they want to promote windows.

While I do think MS should promote certain indie games more, you can't really hold it against them that they let everyone put their games on the console. If you wanna "make big money" you will have to go the XBLA route, even if it puts a lot more hurdles in your way.

But I guess some people complain about everything.

Know what would help? ACHIEVEMENTS. Reward the highest-quality game by giving them ACHIEVEMENTS, and then everyone makes more money.

@Epic-KxDtoid:
Quite the opposite. MS should NOT promote any games on XBLIG. The reason that XBLIG exists is to provide a low barrier for entry for new developers, and most importantly, to have a place where they don't have to fear the big checkbooks of publishers.

1st party support would destroy everything that XBLIG provides that XBLA doesn't. If you want promotional backing and a sustainable business model, use XBLA. That's what it's there for. I'm all for Top 10 lists and editors choice awards from 3rd party sources, but MS needs to stay out of XBLIG.

Its tough to find quality games in the glut of shitty, throw away titles. It needs more oversight and a better submission method. Oh well, I'll just check it once a month or so to see if there's anything worth owning. Glad to see Cthulhu has made some actual money on pc at least. That game is just awesome.

I think he is comming of arrogant with his statements. If you compare his RPG to the good RPG Maker Games his Game wouldn't come off as a "quality product" so calling other products "garbage" and complaining about "visibility of high quality titles" comes off very arrogant, especially after I played a lot of free RPG Maker Games with better spriting, better mapping, better drawing, longer overall time and that even with a more funny plot. If your fluent in german I would recommend "Unterwegs in Düsterburg" as an example.

I never even heard of the 2 games created by this guy until they were on Steam (given a front page slot AND an advertizing window).

This guy is completely right; unless MS does something, XBLIG is not the place to go for profit. Any hidden gems are bound to dwindle if devs realize this..

lol Cudgeon you're hilarious. Cthulhu Saves the World is somehow worse than the crap that RPG Maker creators spit out? Bullsh*t times a thousand. His game sold so well on Steam because of visibility, price, AND A POSITIVE REPUTATION. He wouldn't have that reputation if the game weren't good (I've played it, it is).

"This remonstration comes after news that Cthulhu's PC version outsold the 360 version to a humiliating degree in just six days"

now here's a perfect example of terrible education system in England.

"Breath of Death has been on XBLIG since April 2009 for $1.00, while Cthulhu launched last December for $3.00. To date, they've sold 50,000 and up to 17,000 copies respectively. These figures were stomped on by the Steam bundle, which has made $100,000 and sold 30,000 copies since it launched last week."
those are your own words - as was clearly stated both games sold over 67k copies and made over 100k$ on XBLIG. and 30k copies for 3$ each DOES NOT make 100k$.

i love how all those developers bitch about XBLIG and think that if they put their game on that service, MS automatically will make huge advertisement campaign. how come developers who publish games on Indie Games and promote their products either by making trailers, websites or writing about their games on gaming forums don't bitch about Indie Games service and its sales - how come their games can sell? I Made a Game With Zombies In It sold over 1mln copies because the developer actually informed gamers about existence of his own game.
besides if your game didn't sell as much as you wanted then maybe it's not good enough? which usually is true. i tried Cthulhu Saves The World and i'm sorry, but game is crap. i don't get how all those people think that if they make one game they will automatically sell millions of copies with a blink of an eye regardless of its quality.

I love how he says it as if it's actually news. It's not. It's pretty common knowledge actually.

Yep, no surprises here.

I wish the Chitulu developer would shut the hell up. He knew perfectly well that having a game in the Indie Arcade would result in no promotion, that's why they take a bigger cut of the profit than Arcade games.

The funny thing is, Chitulu was part of the Winter Uprising that MS did advertise even though they didn't have to. Another point of interest is that if it wasn't for the easy to use tools startup of the XBLIG they wouldn't have even had the chance to move this game to Steam.

Go ahead, bite the hands that feed...

I think you are missing the point sofik88. The main point is that these PC/Steam sales number are for just SIX DAYS. The comparison is more the volume moved in the time frame rather than the actual numbers sold...you don't think they will greatly surpass eventually?

What he doesn't mention is that his Cthulhu game was actually given a great deal of exposure by being featured in the Winter Uprising line-up.

I'm leaning more to the fact that your game sucks. You're just pushing the blame onto Microsoft. You're not 100% wrong, mind you. They do need to spruce up the indie section of XBLA. Still, blame the game.

They should make the good ones XBLA games, problem solved.

... it seems that Microsoft provides the platform, but really it should be up to the devs to do their own advertising. They can seek out gaming sites and give away free preview codes, they can give away a couple of game codes for contests, they could seek out dev interviews to talk about their game... they could even do what Brain Candy has done with their game "Fray" and maintain a developer blog on a gaming site... then there is the whole facebook/twitter stuff.

... marketing and advertising is really up to the devs, not Microsoft. Blaming MS just seems a little lazy.

Since when was the "indie games" section ever supposed to be about making money? Why the fuck don't they release it as an official XBLA game, instead? All they need to do is submit it for registration and confirmation that it's not a broken piece of shit (like alot of IG stuff), and there ya go.

I don't think this guy understands what MS intended when it created the two distinct areas.

@ Matt Welch
Yeah there are a lot of good RPG Maker games out. That far surpass a lot of quality RPG Games.. at least in the german RPG Maker Community I don't know about others.
Come back complaining after you played Games like UiD or SKS .. I never said that his Game is bad just that he comes of as arrogant when he goes on about how bad other games on the plattform are. And he's pretty stupid not realizing that Windows is from MS too AND is the most open plattform where everyone can release shit without any hurdles.

I'm not even sure why it sold well on PC. I didn't even know about it until someone recommended it to me. Its not like steam pushed it that hard.

@ JetSetRadioForever

"I'm leaning more to the fact that your game sucks."

Have you played it? Because a lot of people have, and they very much enjoy it.

Also, as has already been made clear, the Steam version outsold the XBLIG iteration (which had been up for a year and a half) within the span of six days. If the game sucked, how the fuck do you explain that? Shitty games typically don't sell better upon a re-release, especially when the number of consumers is nearly identical on both platforms.

@DekenFrost

I think the problem is that even the best games go largely unnoticed. And there are quite a few titles on the XBLIG service that are easily XBLA worthy.

I know The Dishwasher began life as a XBLIG title before being bumped up. I really think Microsoft is screwing itself out of some cash and dedicated, good developers by not doing more of the same. Maybe once every three months, offer the developers of an XBLIG title a deal whereby the first X purchases of the title on XBLA (where X is the amount it'd normally cost a developer to get a license, get an ESRB rating, etc) does not profit the developer, but pays for the cost of bringing it to XBLA, and the rest is just normal.

More games for XBLA would be a good thing, especially since it'd cure the "problem" of all XBLA titles being $15/1200 MS Points.

Does anybody think Cthulu + BoD7 would have sold anywhere near these numbers if good word of mouth didn't come from the XBLIG version? Would Steam have even allowed a no name developer on to the service?

Now it's a viable option to bypass XBLIG. Not when they first started.

I like Zeboyd, but these statements are worded poorly.

"XBox Live Indie Games was a great learning experience and got our foot in the door so to speak. I don't know that we need it anymore though."

"If we continue to support XBLIG in the future, it will be almost entirely for the sake of our fans."

-Robert Boyd on Twitter.

Sounds like Zeboyd expects Xbla treatment on the indie games Market place which is never going to happen.

As far as I'm aware it's not microsofts responsibility to advertise his game and he would have been aware of that when he picked that distribution location.

He's also up against a platform that plays and distributes full titles and xbla titles, the competition is stiff and he must have known it wouldn't be a massive seller.

@Cudgeon

He's talking about how the games on XBLIG are crap, not RPG Maker games. I don't know what crazy moon-thoughts sparked you to think he was, since he specifically lists the ease of entry for XBLIG as causing a quality problem on XBLIG. This is like someone complaining about Uncharted and having you go after them for getting down on Gears of War.

However, I've got to disagree with you on the RPG Maker front. Most of the good-looking ones don't do their own spriting. Most rip obscure SNES or Genesis games that make it LOOK like they've done something original. And to say that Cthulhu Saves the World (or even Breath of Death VII) are below the average of the typical RPG Maker game is ludicrous.

@Cudgeon

Hey, I just checked!

Unterwegs in Düsterburg uses a secondary set which I know they didn't sprite, ditto with the characters and the portraits. Most of those are old news to anyone in the RPG Maker community. I'm pretty sure I've played games as almost literally all of those sprites.

XBLIG does have a visibility issue. Microsoft has buried it so far into the dashboard that one would think that they were embarrassed by it. Going by a chunk of the content available, Microsoft *was* embarrassed by it.

Community policing by fellow indie game developers had a fundamental flaw, that the relaxing of standards to allow anyone to play meant that standards were relaxed to allow anyone to play. XBLIG was quickly flooded by whatever functional programs hobbiests could cobble together, some stuff that wouldn't even make it in the then PC free Flash game market, giving everyone the impression that it was a channel full of nothing but garbage. Along the way, people figured out the lowest common denominator money-makers were non-games and low brow humor, so it got stuff like the massage apps and games like Baby Maker. Games of any quality were lost in the flood and the channel's image was irreparably damaged.


But Zeboyd arguments have problems themselves. As others have said, the Cthulhu/BoD package wouldn't have seen Steam release without the buzz created by the XBLIG releases. And Microsoft did promote Cthulhu. On the PC side, Steam front-paged Cthulhu/BoD, where a $3 price tag for a "bundle" seems like a massive bargain (versus being the same as everything else under XBLIG), and Steam is populated by compulsive buyers.

Also, Indie Games was always more of a hobbiest set-up than a place to make serious money. The community policing guaranteed it, particularly when the development entry fee was only a $100 yearly fee. Yes, you could have success stories, but Indie Games was more like Indie and Hobby PC game development than commercial development.

@DanielCampbell,
considering the piss poor quality of this game that's still far more than should. not to mention he sounds like a complete douche. as for the Steam "exposure" Steam shows all their new products on the main page regardles of their status(game, DLC etc.) - that's not really a promotion.

i was in the RPG Maker scene long time ago(i started with original Tsukuru 95 back in late 90s then with RPG Maker 2k and 2k3 after that i stopped) and i know damn well those programs how usually RPG Maker scene works. this game is BS.
first of all almost every single asset comes from RPG Maker itself or resource sites(created by other users)(from the looks of it he used Tsukuru 95 or 2k). that alone should make this game free.
second, in terms of pure production values it looks worse than my first projects in those editors which usually were simply made using trial and error method. it seems like he used basic elements and premade scripts you got already in the game - so basically he's a complete amateur who didn't even care about his own creation(lack of effort to promote the title on his own, terrible quality of the title itself and overall "half assed attitude" towards it).

i encourage people to actually go to RPG Maker related sites and download some of these games - most of them are much better than crap from this guy and most importantly they are free. if he put this crap on some of those sites he would be laughed at - he would be bashed for using someone elses assets if he would make people pay for it in the first place.

I think sofik88 need to be quiet. He's doing something right and making money from it. Obviously people think it's a good game, but you're just trying to break the mold. Also he's arrogant? Then why are you acting all high and mighty saying your first games were better?

Devs on XBLIG can do it if they have the right promotion. Remember I MAED A GAEM with ZOMBI3s IN IT?

Just bought this game on steam, love it.

@sofik88

Where did he steal the resources from? Give me a link. Show me somewhere where he could have taken the resources. Once I find it somewhere, I'll believe it. However, we both know that's a bullshit claim. I've got a lot of experience with RPG Maker as well, and I can tell you that nothing jumped out at me.

As for making it in RPG Maker, that's impossible. XNA is incompatible with RPG Maker. So ZeBoyd had to have crafted their engine from scratch, at the very least.

Basically... Shut up. You're so wrong it hurts my brain.

It's because they do not allow Achievements. DUH! Put something like 50 gamerscore on every $1 XBLIG and they will sell like hotcakes. PROBLEM SOLVED.

@Squishy3,
i never said my games were better. what i'm saying is that he simply "spammed" entire game and called it a day without taking care and creating it. i always was interested in technical point of RPG Maker and what you can do with those programs and knowing those editors(and what i actually did) his game is a joke. i remember few games made by RPG Maker that people were selling digitally back in the day when there was no Steam, GamersGate, Direct2Drive - it's like day and night in terms of overall quality.

yeah it's nice that his game made money, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not a particularly good one. so he shouldn't complain about supposedly low sales - what did he expect?

@sofik88 - Make your own games or develop your own creditability before you try to talk trash about two games for three dollars that helped pass the time in a heat wave. OH LORDY THREE DOLLARS... grow up child

He's right, M$ does nothing to help the indie games. This game is amazing just because it has the great Cthulhu and everyone should purchase it as a form of worship to Cthulhu. This game should have outsold the combined sales of every halo game ever made, but 360 keeps it buried and hides the indie store area. 360 is poop.

Yeah I was looking at the XBLIG channel and it really is filled with alot of shit titles. Sifting through the shit for the good stuff is a daunting task. Seriously I've found a few hidden gens in amongst the rubble but it should never be that difficult.

Just develop for the PC... problem solved

I know I don't bother sifting through the mountain of indie titles on XBLIG unless I see a title mentioned somewhere else.


XBLIG is like that friend who asks you to create a website for him for free: it's not about the money, it's mainly about exposure. The money comes later after you abandon that friend for being a cheap bastard.

MS has 3 big issues here in this case.

1st issue is their whole interface. The interface leads to all their organizational issues and its atrocious to try to find things that aren't on the most popular or most downloaded lists, be it in the indie section or anywhere else. This also leads into the fact that the way Microsoft promotes ANYTHING over XBL is a complete mess, and if they decided to promote indie games at all people still probably won't see them. Hopefully all this will change with the next dashboard update and kinect voice searching.

2nd thing is Microsoft appears like they have some irrational fear of indie games over taking the arcade games, and I seriously don't think that'll happen. They definitely can exist side by side. And if they DO have that fear, the only reason I can see for having it is because of the price point of indie games compared to arcade games, which blows the doors off that quote from the other day that said we make the prices in the arcade market what they are.

3rd really does seem to be the lack of quality control that's been echoed a lot here. Its seems impossible to find shit on XBL as it is most of the time, but to have to try to sift through 300 crappy avatar games to find a really good game (even if its a really good avatar game) is a little ridiculous, specially when we're on a timed demo. If better quality assurance was maintained from the start by Microsoft they wouldn't have to host hundreds of thousands of games --a weight we ultimately take on ourselves through our subscription fee, mind you-- and people could get to the games that really should get played, from people who are very talented despite the budget limits they're under, much faster.

I was fully aware of this games existence and i had no desire to play it but i guess its easy to just point the finger at a big evil company rather than reflect on the quality of your own product

I almost bought Cthulhu last week, but the timed demo ended right after the first battle and left me unsure about the game's overall quality.

In any future XBLIG releases I'd recommend the game be designed to allow for a more complete showcasing of the game. When the demo ended, I just hadn't seen enough actual gameplay to make me want to purchase it.

I still may go back and buy it, but as I've said already, the first 10 minutes should be more representative of what the plaer can expect of a full purchase.

*player

...also I'm currently enjoying Blocks That Matter, an XBLIG reviewed recently by Destructoid member Corduroy Turtle.

...Thanks! It's a keeper!

I love how many of you seem to miss the point of his statement.

He's not complaining or whining his game didn't do well, he's pointing out how bad XBLIG presents games to the consumers, and that instead of providing a viable platform to get your game noticed, it's a mess that no matter how good your game is, it won't be seen in the sea of crap found there.

I don't see what's the problem with his comments, some promotion, more visibility and more incentives to devs wouldn't hurt at all.

@Elsa

I get what your saying but Boyd's point doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft advertising FOR them, but Microsoft ALLOWING them to advertise/promote themselves better on the very service they're trying to shill their wares on, while also giving them an adequate, easy to find, place on the marketplace so that their games can better be found. Both of which Microsoft isn't doing, but does do for bigger developers who they give Carte Blanche privileges to all around.

Its a matter of Microsoft not offering a certain echelon of support to everyone that really should be a very basic thing, specially if they really want their services to be the best of the best. He isn't asking for the indie's hands to be held here, more so that they want a little bit of equality to bridge the gap between them and the those bigger developers and create a better all around market on XBL, and what he's asking isn't in some spectacularly crazy fashion, just some advertising space, a more forefront spot in the marketplace and maybe a few more promotions over the course of the year. Its really nothing that should break Microsoft's back, but that's exactly why its so ridiculous that the indies have to keep fighting so long and so hard for it.

While XBIG is fine for the hobbiest and semi pros, there is a few 1-2 man dev teams that are trying to make a living from making these games like Zeboyd and Xona games whose games dont quite make the grade for XBLA but are too good for XBIG.

Its these devs who are saying that MS doesnt cater for them and this is true, as MS doesnt promote their games so devs have to rely on the broken storepage as the main way to sell their games. THis is made worse as MS user rating system which is supposed to sort the good from the bad is broken because devs can give themselves high ratings which puts them at the top of the storepage.

While Cthulhu Saves The World sold really well it isnt all down to XBIG. The fact is that there is a demand for JRPGs and other Japanese games on steam which has for years gone unanswered. THis is changing though as there is a number of JRPGs making their way to steam, Carpe Fulgar's Chantelise localisation is hits steam in 2 days. Plus Rockin Android and other devs are incoming as well