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Whatever, their stupid shop will bomb again.It's not that this is their first attempt.
Yesterday I thought, okay I'll give Origin a chance, let's buy Alice. After the absolutely clunky search I managed to get it into my cart. Made the checkout, filled in my personal info and had to scroll down to see that Alice was in German. So I switched to English (UK) and I had to fill out my personal info again. *Sigh* After the payment with Paypal I had no clue what actually happened. Alice is not in my game list, 1 hour later I get the email that I bought Alice. No additional info.
Seriously, their software is shit. The usability is non existent, their pricing is worse than Steam. (HERP DEE DERP $ == €)
Give me a reason why I should buy another game again? It's a poor attempt and not one thing is better than on Steam. Absolutely nothing! And that's just piss poor for such a big company that should know better after their 3rd revision.
Yesterday I thought, okay I'll give Origin a chance, let's buy Alice. After the absolutely clunky search I managed to get it into my cart. Made the checkout, filled in my personal info and had to scroll down to see that Alice was in German. So I switched to English (UK) and I had to fill out my personal info again. *Sigh* After the payment with Paypal I had no clue what actually happened. Alice is not in my game list, 1 hour later I get the email that I bought Alice. No additional info.
Seriously, their software is shit. The usability is non existent, their pricing is worse than Steam. (HERP DEE DERP $ == €)
Give me a reason why I should buy another game again? It's a poor attempt and not one thing is better than on Steam. Absolutely nothing! And that's just piss poor for such a big company that should know better after their 3rd revision.
Each uses the weapons they possess.
I don't give a damn about who will sell me. Since I don't have to pay the import taxes that would I pay buying the retail.
I don't give a damn about who will sell me. Since I don't have to pay the import taxes that would I pay buying the retail.
@Tristrix: What the fuck are you talking about competition? There's no competition when they pull their games off Steam and decide to make it Origin exclusives.
With this move EA just isolates itself and they do their own thing which really pisses me off. I knew when I saw the announcement that this can't mean anything good and now we are forced again to take a big step back. Origin is a downloader and file encrypter. Steam is so much more. A community, Steamcloud, Voice Chat, Achievments, ... And then you have Origin. lulz
With this move EA just isolates itself and they do their own thing which really pisses me off. I knew when I saw the announcement that this can't mean anything good and now we are forced again to take a big step back. Origin is a downloader and file encrypter. Steam is so much more. A community, Steamcloud, Voice Chat, Achievments, ... And then you have Origin. lulz
If they're trying to make their service look better they may want to steal some better games. Crysis 2 isn't gonna be boosting their sign ups any time soon. lol
COOOOOONNNNNSSSSSOOOOOOLLLLLLEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I can't get it on Steam or a regular download I won't be getting it. Screw adding another Steam like client.
If I can't get it on Steam or a regular download I won't be getting it. Screw adding another Steam like client.
Digital downloads, welcome to the console market!
How is this any different from having to own 3 different consoles, each with their own accounts?
That same segmentation is coming to pc gaming in a big way. Every EA game will be on origin. Every Valve game on Steam. Will GOG start making their games exclusive? Who else? Its coming.
And who didn't expect EA to create their own store? No one, we all saw it coming. And this comes as no surprise, either. If you want future EA games, you need an Origin account, just like you need a 360 for Gears of War, or a ps3 for Uncharted.
How is this any different from having to own 3 different consoles, each with their own accounts?
That same segmentation is coming to pc gaming in a big way. Every EA game will be on origin. Every Valve game on Steam. Will GOG start making their games exclusive? Who else? Its coming.
And who didn't expect EA to create their own store? No one, we all saw it coming. And this comes as no surprise, either. If you want future EA games, you need an Origin account, just like you need a 360 for Gears of War, or a ps3 for Uncharted.
I wont buy a game from that piece of shit digital distribution system. They can go fuck themselves. If mass effect 3 does not come out on STEAM then they can go fuck themelves again for beign idiots and im going to pirate the heck out of that just to fuck them.
Dick move.
Dick move.
I was sort of wondering why EA put their games on steam when they had their own download service.
Lots of hate on both sides, but I think it is a dick move on EA because they should have initally lanched Orgin with Crisis 2 so that the consumers did not have to migrate and well do work to play the game.
I am not saying steam is perfect, sometimes you cannot log in when a big game lanches. But Valve really set the bar high when it came to digital ditribution. Not that D2D is not cool, but it really is just a simple copy of steam without the rare great deals.
For the people angery because the daily deals are not good, why would you think daily deals would be better than the black friday deasl? when last years greatist games on PC are five dollors.
Pricing is set by the publisher, that is why COD4 is still $30 (way to much )
Orgin sounds interesting, however I think it will not be quite as succesful mainly due to the fact steam has many devlopers games and orgin has only EA games.
TO be frank EA has never been a good devloper, only a good distrubter so I really do not see me buying any of their products anytime soon, exspecially since the completely F***ed up C&C or comand and conquer, need for speed, adn james bond.
Lots of hate on both sides, but I think it is a dick move on EA because they should have initally lanched Orgin with Crisis 2 so that the consumers did not have to migrate and well do work to play the game.
I am not saying steam is perfect, sometimes you cannot log in when a big game lanches. But Valve really set the bar high when it came to digital ditribution. Not that D2D is not cool, but it really is just a simple copy of steam without the rare great deals.
For the people angery because the daily deals are not good, why would you think daily deals would be better than the black friday deasl? when last years greatist games on PC are five dollors.
Pricing is set by the publisher, that is why COD4 is still $30 (way to much )
Orgin sounds interesting, however I think it will not be quite as succesful mainly due to the fact steam has many devlopers games and orgin has only EA games.
TO be frank EA has never been a good devloper, only a good distrubter so I really do not see me buying any of their products anytime soon, exspecially since the completely F***ed up C&C or comand and conquer, need for speed, adn james bond.
This is from the origin TOS agreement
5. Content and Entitlement Availability
Entitlements may only be held in Accounts belonging to legal residents of countries where access to and use of Content and Entitlements is permitted. Entitlements may be purchased or acquired only from EA or an authorized retailer. EA reserves the right to refuse your request(s) to acquire Entitlements, and EA reserves the right to limit or block any request to acquire Entitlements for any reason.
We do not guarantee that any Content or Entitlement will be available at all times or at any given time or that we will continue to offer particular Content or Entitlements for any particular length of time. We reserve the right to change and update Content and Entitlements without notice to you. If you have not used your Entitlements or Account for twenty four (24) months or more and your Account has associated Entitlements, your Entitlements will expire and your Account may be cancelled for non-use. Once you have redeemed your Entitlements, that content is not returnable, exchangeable, or refundable for other Entitlements or for cash, or other goods or services.
Second paragraph scare the shit out of me.10 years from now when im playing on my 20GHz 40 core machine with with 10 gigs of video ram i know i will be able to redownload any steam game i own if i want to.This is very important to me since i hate collecting CD,s and DVD,s.EA can pull the plug any time they want and your shit out of luck.
God i wanna rent a helicopter and fly over EAs headquarters and shit on bobby kotick.
5. Content and Entitlement Availability
Entitlements may only be held in Accounts belonging to legal residents of countries where access to and use of Content and Entitlements is permitted. Entitlements may be purchased or acquired only from EA or an authorized retailer. EA reserves the right to refuse your request(s) to acquire Entitlements, and EA reserves the right to limit or block any request to acquire Entitlements for any reason.
We do not guarantee that any Content or Entitlement will be available at all times or at any given time or that we will continue to offer particular Content or Entitlements for any particular length of time. We reserve the right to change and update Content and Entitlements without notice to you. If you have not used your Entitlements or Account for twenty four (24) months or more and your Account has associated Entitlements, your Entitlements will expire and your Account may be cancelled for non-use. Once you have redeemed your Entitlements, that content is not returnable, exchangeable, or refundable for other Entitlements or for cash, or other goods or services.
Second paragraph scare the shit out of me.10 years from now when im playing on my 20GHz 40 core machine with with 10 gigs of video ram i know i will be able to redownload any steam game i own if i want to.This is very important to me since i hate collecting CD,s and DVD,s.EA can pull the plug any time they want and your shit out of luck.
God i wanna rent a helicopter and fly over EAs headquarters and shit on bobby kotick.
Unfortunately, i think origin is a necessary evil. Not buying EA games hurts the developer way more than it hurts EA. Its sucks but if you think an EA game deserves your money than you should bite the bullet and download origin. this is coming from someone who's a loyal valve fan, and loves steam, but i think we shouldn't punish developers for the publishers' mistakes.
Who is the asshole that that thinks origin is necessary? it will be a festering pile of shit, and pulling games OFF steam make it less convenient for me to PURCHASE them EA. God this means your going to fuck up on BF3 and ME3, both of their prior games were on steam, I bought them on there, and they did really well on the service. As I recall the only reason Dead Space 2 got a PC release was because of DS1's sales numbers on steam. We don't want to use your service, because it will suck. Not even activision is this bullheaded about digital distribution, hell they use steamworks in COD. I will be buying boxed copies of your games from now on, i will never spend a penny on orign, and the funny thing is that your pissing of every PC gamer who uses steam, and there are no console tards that will make up the difference for origin.
Who is the asshole that that thinks origin is necessary? it will be a festering pile of shit, and pulling games OFF steam make it less convenient for me to PURCHASE them EA. God this means your going to fuck up on BF3 and ME3, both of their prior games were on steam, I bought them on there, and they did really well on the service. As I recall the only reason Dead Space 2 got a PC release was because of DS1's sales numbers on steam. We don't want to use your service, because it will suck. Not even activision is this bullheaded about digital distribution, hell they use steamworks in COD. I will be buying boxed copies of your games from now on, i will never spend a penny on orign, and the funny thing is that your pissing of every PC gamer who uses steam, and there are no console tards that will make up the difference for origin.
Who is the asshole that that thinks origin is necessary? it will be a festering pile of shit, and pulling games OFF steam make it less convenient for me to PURCHASE them EA. God this means your going to fuck up on BF3 and ME3, both of their prior games were on steam, I bought them on there, and they did really well on the service. As I recall the only reason Dead Space 2 got a PC release was because of DS1's sales numbers on steam. We don't want to use your service, because it will suck. Not even activision is this bullheaded about digital distribution, hell they use steamworks in COD. I will be buying boxed copies of your games from now on, i will never spend a penny on orign, and the funny thing is that your pissing of every PC gamer who uses steam, and there are no console tards that will make up the difference for origin.
Wouldn't a move like this hurt the relationship they have with their retail distribution agreement? I guess this answers my question from earlier about EA NOT being involved with Portal 2 for PC on steam, but I doubt steam is going to look lightly on this... or maybe they'll just welcome EA back when the Origin bombs completely? Sucks though, this doesn't seem like a winning situation for anyone else besides EA, if Origin is successful (hahahahahahahahahahahaha).
@Cowkaynee Monkeystrudle: What would Kotick be doing at EA?
@Cowkaynee Monkeystrudle: What would Kotick be doing at EA?
This just proves that EA doesn't understand what makes Steam successful at all. The reason Steam is so popular is not just the excellent sales, it's the interface and tools that they provide as well. Why the hell would I want to create an account at Origin when there is nobody else on it and the interface is absolute crap. Seriously just download the client and see how completely worthless it is. Frankly they should be embarrassed to launch this shitty software at all. Seriously EA, give it up before you throw away tons of money and alienate your fanbase.
I'd like an explanation from an EA Rep as to how this is going to help a game sell? Really, I sell games for a living and I'd like to see how complicating the selling process even more is going to help sell there game. Granted it's a different avenue of distribution, but I get quite a few customers asking how to download games off of the interwebs. Are they going to do some type of kiosk or something in store to promote this? How is this going to work with pre-Orders? How is this going to effect downloaded 3rd party pre-order redemption codes that have to be validated on a 3rd party server then downloaded to your mail so that you can register with EA? Does that go to your Master account or your new account? So many questions...
“How is this any different from having to own 3 different consoles, each with their own accounts?”
Hundreds of dollars?! I mean, sign in this services is free. I get your point but I’m just thinking. To play a console exclusive you have to make a investment. It’s not like you buy Demon’s Souls and get a PS3 for free. But with steam or origin or any other DD service, there’s no investment. So the fidelity to the services it’s more a question of fate. And how you do that?! how do you convince people to change their religion?
Hundreds of dollars?! I mean, sign in this services is free. I get your point but I’m just thinking. To play a console exclusive you have to make a investment. It’s not like you buy Demon’s Souls and get a PS3 for free. But with steam or origin or any other DD service, there’s no investment. So the fidelity to the services it’s more a question of fate. And how you do that?! how do you convince people to change their religion?
I think some people have missed Jim's point on the matter for not reading closely or don't play pc games that do this. Jim is referring to games that have both Steam and GFWL over-lays programmed into the game at the same time and does not want to see a third over-lay added on. At least I think that's his point.
This is a pretty dickish move by EA though.
This is a pretty dickish move by EA though.
Alright, I've had a little extra time to roll this around in the ole' noggin, and I'm not happy about this one bit. I for one don't care to be at the mercy of publishers any more than we already are. EA is selectively attacking it's biggest competitor(as Crysis 2 is still on Direct 2 Drive as I write this), not through an open competition, they are using/abusing their legal rights as a content holder to starve their chief impediment to getting that extra cut of consumers money, while still probably delivering the same god awful customer service they have for years.
EA has the right to do this. I do not dispute the legal grounds to do so. But don't praise EA or Activision for doing so on the grounds that this is some how open and fair competition. Fair competition would involve going head to head with Steam in a price and feature war, not trying to starve them out.
EA isn't interested in competing. It's sole interest is creating a direct line between themselves and your wallet, so that consumers have as few options as possible. We will rue the day that publishers and platform holders take total control of the supply chain. A market with that few players is hardly a market at all, and resembles a cartel. It'll be like the airlines! Happy day!
EA has the right to do this. I do not dispute the legal grounds to do so. But don't praise EA or Activision for doing so on the grounds that this is some how open and fair competition. Fair competition would involve going head to head with Steam in a price and feature war, not trying to starve them out.
EA isn't interested in competing. It's sole interest is creating a direct line between themselves and your wallet, so that consumers have as few options as possible. We will rue the day that publishers and platform holders take total control of the supply chain. A market with that few players is hardly a market at all, and resembles a cartel. It'll be like the airlines! Happy day!
Did EA's stock price fall when key sharehoulders found out that EA were effectively severing themselves from an established distribution platform with an almost universal install-base (to varying degrees)?
@UltorOscariot
Can we hold Valve and Steam to the same argument then? You can't purchase any of Valve's games from Direct 2 Drive or Impulse or Origins. The only place you can buy Half-Life, Orange Box, or Portal 2 is Steam.
Like I said, it's shitty all around...but let's not prop up Steam like they're above all this. Steam evolved into what we have today, the client initially delivered games much like Origin and then added features along the way. It just seems we're awfully quick to vilify one over the other, when both are essentially doing the same.
Can we hold Valve and Steam to the same argument then? You can't purchase any of Valve's games from Direct 2 Drive or Impulse or Origins. The only place you can buy Half-Life, Orange Box, or Portal 2 is Steam.
Like I said, it's shitty all around...but let's not prop up Steam like they're above all this. Steam evolved into what we have today, the client initially delivered games much like Origin and then added features along the way. It just seems we're awfully quick to vilify one over the other, when both are essentially doing the same.
"Decision to pull Crysis 2 from Steam was not made by publisher, says EA rep"
http://www.vg247.com/2011/06/15/crysis-2-now-only-on-origin-d2d-impulse-more/
If this turns out to be true, it sort of negates the whole point of this post. Wonder if Jim will then point the finger at his beloved Steam and their 'competitive' policies...highly doubt it. Either way, the consumer is getting screwed and Valve is certainly elbow deep.
http://www.vg247.com/2011/06/15/crysis-2-now-only-on-origin-d2d-impulse-more/
If this turns out to be true, it sort of negates the whole point of this post. Wonder if Jim will then point the finger at his beloved Steam and their 'competitive' policies...highly doubt it. Either way, the consumer is getting screwed and Valve is certainly elbow deep.
@IAboMbA,
You raise an excellent point. In a freer market, Valve would be willing to license their content to other platforms.
I guess I find it slightly less disconcerting in Valve's case, because of scale. Since Valve's inception, they've released what, 23 titles? EA or Activision could probably manage that output in 2-3 years. I love Valve, but their creative output into this industry, special while it is, doesn't match the sheer volume of the foot print large publishers have.
Also the scale of the Origin's offerings. They aren't (currently, anyway) providing a friendly environment for non-EA titles to come to market. They may in the future, but Origin right now is a closed market.
You raise an excellent point. In a freer market, Valve would be willing to license their content to other platforms.
I guess I find it slightly less disconcerting in Valve's case, because of scale. Since Valve's inception, they've released what, 23 titles? EA or Activision could probably manage that output in 2-3 years. I love Valve, but their creative output into this industry, special while it is, doesn't match the sheer volume of the foot print large publishers have.
Also the scale of the Origin's offerings. They aren't (currently, anyway) providing a friendly environment for non-EA titles to come to market. They may in the future, but Origin right now is a closed market.
@terranwolf "Your argument is invalid because EA doesn't make any of the games people actually want."
really? Last time I checked EA has 4 of the top 10 best selling franchises of all time. Selling well over 300 million titles just between those 4.
I actually did see Portal 2 in the Origin Store.
I'm sure EA would love for other developers to sell their products on Origin, but I imagine getting said developers to trust you after EA burning so many bridges would be the issue.
really? Last time I checked EA has 4 of the top 10 best selling franchises of all time. Selling well over 300 million titles just between those 4.
I actually did see Portal 2 in the Origin Store.
I'm sure EA would love for other developers to sell their products on Origin, but I imagine getting said developers to trust you after EA burning so many bridges would be the issue.
@Cryotek
"If it had been on Steam, and offered the free copy of the original, it would have been a sale."
Do you even know how that sounds? Or what that train of thought, if it were really to get more passengers, would do to the industry? If you had said "I'd wait for a sale" or "I'd wait for the price to go down" or something, it'd be totally different, but outright saying "I need a free game with this to make this a sale" is.. I don't know.. Horrific.
No new release should have to be packaged with game packaged in with it just to make a sale, whether the game is a totally unrelated title or the game that started the whole series. If the game can't get you in on its own, without needing an entire other game to piggy back on just because its a freebee, then the game isn't worth your time or you weren't really that interested in the first place. And it certainly means the publishers/retailers/whomever really didn't try THAT hard to sell (or make) the game good enough. Driving people over some imaginary edge just because they're getting a 2 for 1 deal on a title that may not even deserve the support is a very lazy way to fluff your numbers and seriously will only end up leading to shittier games in the long run, when developers start to decide to say "Well, we can pack this game in and not bother with polishing the back half of <insert game name here>"
And yeah, the only real problem I had with the Sony show at E3 was that they obviously feel the need to attempt to drive Bioshock Infinite and Battlefield 3 sales up by packing in Bioshock and Battlefield 1943 (respectively) with the game, on the same disc -2 games that are already going to sell a hell of a lot of copies on the system because the system will (or at least should) make them look better. Some would call it "costumer appreciation", but really does seem to be just pandering when you consider that point.
"If it had been on Steam, and offered the free copy of the original, it would have been a sale."
Do you even know how that sounds? Or what that train of thought, if it were really to get more passengers, would do to the industry? If you had said "I'd wait for a sale" or "I'd wait for the price to go down" or something, it'd be totally different, but outright saying "I need a free game with this to make this a sale" is.. I don't know.. Horrific.
No new release should have to be packaged with game packaged in with it just to make a sale, whether the game is a totally unrelated title or the game that started the whole series. If the game can't get you in on its own, without needing an entire other game to piggy back on just because its a freebee, then the game isn't worth your time or you weren't really that interested in the first place. And it certainly means the publishers/retailers/whomever really didn't try THAT hard to sell (or make) the game good enough. Driving people over some imaginary edge just because they're getting a 2 for 1 deal on a title that may not even deserve the support is a very lazy way to fluff your numbers and seriously will only end up leading to shittier games in the long run, when developers start to decide to say "Well, we can pack this game in and not bother with polishing the back half of <insert game name here>"
And yeah, the only real problem I had with the Sony show at E3 was that they obviously feel the need to attempt to drive Bioshock Infinite and Battlefield 3 sales up by packing in Bioshock and Battlefield 1943 (respectively) with the game, on the same disc -2 games that are already going to sell a hell of a lot of copies on the system because the system will (or at least should) make them look better. Some would call it "costumer appreciation", but really does seem to be just pandering when you consider that point.
Well I was hoping to pick up Crysis 2 during a Steam sale. Looks like I'm not buying it at all now. Thanks for saving me money EA!
@Mxyzptlk
Steam is at a point of acceptance where "slightly better prices" isn't enough to entice people to alternatives.
Have you noticed that Steam now carries Free-to-Play games? Games that were available for free on the internet, some with quite simple installs no less, have gone to Steam to be published simply to get noticed. And it seems to be working, at least going by comments in posts that reported the news. People who would never have bothered with a Free-to-Play game's original site and install are now trying the games through Steam.
When people think of online PC game distribution, they think of Steam. They look for games at Steam and ignore the other sites. They'll even complain about Games for Windows Live, and then buy a Steam version of a game that contains GFWL.
@Katherine Leigh McHugh
Steam isn't the only site that offers sales. Direct2Drive and GamersGate both offer sales. Torchlight is $5.08 on GamersGate for today, and a while back I think Direct2Drive had it for under $5?
Steam is at a point of acceptance where "slightly better prices" isn't enough to entice people to alternatives.
Have you noticed that Steam now carries Free-to-Play games? Games that were available for free on the internet, some with quite simple installs no less, have gone to Steam to be published simply to get noticed. And it seems to be working, at least going by comments in posts that reported the news. People who would never have bothered with a Free-to-Play game's original site and install are now trying the games through Steam.
When people think of online PC game distribution, they think of Steam. They look for games at Steam and ignore the other sites. They'll even complain about Games for Windows Live, and then buy a Steam version of a game that contains GFWL.
@Katherine Leigh McHugh
Steam isn't the only site that offers sales. Direct2Drive and GamersGate both offer sales. Torchlight is $5.08 on GamersGate for today, and a while back I think Direct2Drive had it for under $5?
Well, EA just lost a sale on Battlefield 3. This is upsetting beyond reason. I don't want a publisher exclusive download service, especially when that publisher is EA. You know they'll just jack prices up and expect us to deal with it.
Can you at least pretend to be a journalist for once, and find out what the fuck you're talking about first?
Regardless of who is in the wrong over the Crysis 2 thing it's a PR nightmare for EA. They should have outright stated which TOS they breached so we could point fingers at Valve instead, because as it is, I believe they're probably still in the wrong.
It also caused me to look further into Origin. Price gouging ($75US for a game) because I'm from another country, check. Need to install another client which is nothing but a form of DRM, check. Terrible TOS (games may expire in 2 years, limited to 5 installs), check. GEE, I'm sure glad for competition. Here's how to make me want your service, offer me better deals than anywhere else. Hell, just do what Valve does and offer me your games at the same price as your US customers instead of trying to rip me off.
Steam has a loyal following because people like to have a collection all in one place (convergence) and because it resurrected PC gaming to be more than just a WoW platform. It was also initially disguised as something other than a marketplace, adding value to the product (auto patching was amazing for CS: Source). EA is just doing a blatant cash grab. Making your games exclusive to your DRM distribution service will just increase piracy because PC gamers are self entitled bastards that won't put up with your bullshit.
I'm raging so hard at the mere thought of ME3 being Origin exclusive I probably won't be able to concentrate on the exam I have in 10mins. Fuck you EA. Fuck you.
It also caused me to look further into Origin. Price gouging ($75US for a game) because I'm from another country, check. Need to install another client which is nothing but a form of DRM, check. Terrible TOS (games may expire in 2 years, limited to 5 installs), check. GEE, I'm sure glad for competition. Here's how to make me want your service, offer me better deals than anywhere else. Hell, just do what Valve does and offer me your games at the same price as your US customers instead of trying to rip me off.
Steam has a loyal following because people like to have a collection all in one place (convergence) and because it resurrected PC gaming to be more than just a WoW platform. It was also initially disguised as something other than a marketplace, adding value to the product (auto patching was amazing for CS: Source). EA is just doing a blatant cash grab. Making your games exclusive to your DRM distribution service will just increase piracy because PC gamers are self entitled bastards that won't put up with your bullshit.
I'm raging so hard at the mere thought of ME3 being Origin exclusive I probably won't be able to concentrate on the exam I have in 10mins. Fuck you EA. Fuck you.
While I'm not too keen on Origin, anyone that is skipping Alice is missing out for sure! Besides, you can play the games once you've downloaded them without launching the Origin program...
"F*ck you for Origin, EA. Yet another arrogant, publisher-driven service was not required."
totally concur.
totally concur.
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