Quantcast


Counterpoint: Mass Effect 2 photo

Last week, Brad Nicholson reviewed Mass Effect 2. Awarding the game a ten out of ten, Nicholson called the game "one of the best real-time action RPGs I've ever played." This is a counterpoint to that review, and focuses more on the narrative aspects of the game.

Two of my crew are dead. I knew that lives would be lost on this mission, but it still came as a surprise to see two of my crew members -- one of whom I especially cared for -- die right in front of me.

On the one hand, I mourn their loss. On the other hand, I'm ecstatic that Mass Effect 2, unlike so many videogames, goes beyond mere fantasy empowerment and actually tries to build its mechanics around tragedy and loss. On a third, mutant hand, I take serious issue with the way those little tragedies are implemented.

Mass Effect 2 thrilled me, frightened me, and made me shout at my television in surprised, tragic loss. Yet, I can't help but think of the game as a first, flawed step toward something even more remarkable.

Assuming you already know that the game ends with a mission where your crew members can die, there aren't any huge spoilers here. I do discuss the basic parameters of that final mission, however.

 

erere

I love the fact that I spent the entire game terrified that my squad might die. I truly, deeply adored the sensation of being constantly, subtly nervous about exactly what might happen to my squadmates. Every time I met a new character, my excitement at gaining a new crew member was tempered only by the knowledge that, if I didn't play my cards right, I might very well have to watch them die.

I can honestly say that I've never really felt that in a game before. So much dramatic tension in narrative videogames feels phony, even at their best. Naughty Dog wants us to believe that, if the bad guy gets to the doomsday weapon and uses it, Nathan Drake might die. Yet, we know that isn't true: if the player fails to beat the boss in time, he'll simply get another chance to do so, then another, then another, until the player finally kicks the prerequisite amount of ass and emerges victorious. There's no real consequence outside of what the cut scenes say there is, and the player only exists to move Nathan from cut scene to cut scene.

Not to suggest that Mass Effect 2 is some sort of revolutionary narrative experience (if you die while fighting the endboss, you'll respawn and try again just as any wisecracking treasure hunter might), but the fact that I knew my actions would eventually have real, permanent consequences imbued my experience with more consistent tension than I had expected.  I wanted all of my crew to live to see Mass Effect 3, but the game told me that -- because of decisions I would make -- many of them probably would not. This fact alone makes Mass Effect 2 one of the most legitimately suspenseful games in recent memory.

ere

Thankfully, the story itself does everything it can to heighten that character-driven suspense: rather than spending a lot of time trying to match the epic scale of the first Mass Effect, the sequel wisely focuses on getting the player attached to the NPCs whenever possible. The larger plot adds almost nothing to the player's knowledge of the Reaper threat, revolves around considerably less epic events, and, in terms of what is actually accomplished by Shepard's mission, serves almost solely to lead into the events of Mass Effect 3.

And yet, it works. It doesn't matter that the Collectors' ultimate goals make so little sense, or that "The Illusive Man" is the silliest pseudonym in recent memory. Mass Effect 2 isn't a story about evil aliens or Martin Sheen or bosses who need to be shot in specific weak points: it's about a suicide mission, and a group of sympathetic NPCs whose lives are in the player's hands. The game has absolutely nothing to do with the fate of the galaxy, and absolutely everything to do with the fate of twelve people.

At least half of the total missions in the game revolve around either acquiring or gaining the loyalty of your different crew members. The other half are varied enough in terms of enemies and situations that, for the first time ever, I actually found myself using each of my crew members from time to time rather than just staying with my two favorites for the entire game. The squad-as-a-singular-entity levelling system, where all members of your squad have access to the same number of skill points regardless of when you recruit them or whether or not they helped you complete a mission, encourages you to spend time with each of the different members of the crew. As you begin to see their usefulness in combat, you often grow attached to them and subsequently, the final mission becomes that much more foreboding. I didn't personally like all of my companions, but I understood them. I found their individual biotic and tech powers useful. I sympathized with them. I did not want them to die.

Two of them did.

erere

But Thane Krios and Samara died not because I'd made difficult choices that indirectly led to their deaths, nor because I'd specifically chosen to save one person over another. No: they died because I chose the wrong answer to a multiple-choice question.

Before the suicide mission, my crew's survivability seemed to depend upon the largest Wrex Paradox in history: by doing loyalty missions and upgrading the crew, you are simultaneously proving that you care about them and making them less likely to die. Initially, I was worried that, since I'd turned all but one of my squad members loyal (Zaeed didn't much care for the decisions I made in his sidequest), none of my crew would be in any real danger. Thankfully, I was wrong. Sort of.

While being prepared doesn't guarantee that your squad will make it out alive, not being prepared certainly guarantees that some of your crew will die. I didn't personally have to see the effects of, say, neglecting to upgrade the Normandy's armor and weapons, but I have to ask: why are preparedness and tragedy so diametrically opposed to one another for much of the game? Why do crew members mostly live or die based not on legitimate choices, but on how much time you spent upgrading armor, or doing optional sidequests, or getting your Paragon/Renegade score really high so that you don't have to pick sides in any of the arguments between your crewmates? Why structure the missions in such a way so that if you didn't care enough about the crew to upgrade the Normandy, more members of the crew (whom you just proved you didn't like, and whose deaths you would subsequently not mourn) will die?

eere

The player is seldom tasked with any real, honest-to-goodness dilemmas if he or she just works hard enough and completes enough sidequests. The dull, repetitive element mining minigame perhaps best encapsulates this design philosophy: of all the player's myriad strengths and abilities, their surfeit of free time is the one most valued by Mass Effect 2. Thematically, the game seems to have less in common with Dragon Age, whose ending forced the player to make challenging, impactful choices, than it does the old story of the grasshopper and the ant. So long as you have sufficient free time and an imported character (thanks to the moral alignment bonu at the start of the game), much of Mass Effect 2 is an ethical breeze. And that's unfortunate; why should dedication to the story and characters preclude me from experiencing legitimate drama?

Thankfully, however, preparedness alone won't keep your friends alive: one other factor determines the fate of your crew. Somewhat less thankfully, that factor is dumb luck. Or at least, something that very much feels like dumb luck.

You go through the Omega 4 relay, you watch the Normandy fly around, you make an inspirational speech. Now, it's decision time. Who will lead the distraction team, who will sneak around in a ventilation shaft?

While I truly appreciate the fact that BioWare refused to let the player's completionist tendencies save the lives of the entire crew, I'm not sure that forcing me to arbitrarily assign crew members to particular jobs was the best way to decide the fates of people I'd spent thirty hours getting to know.

erere

While Thane's death hit me hard enough that I screamed, "No!" at the screen, it felt random, and somewhat unearned. Unlike the NPC deaths at the end of Dragon Age, I didn't feel like Thane's death reflected back on my input in any signficant way. When a particular character bit the dust at the end of Dragon Age, it resonated with me not because I particularly liked him (I didn't), but because my actions had clearly led to his death, and I had to live with the knowledge that I was responsible. When Thane died in Mass Effect 2, I simply felt like, again, I'd incorrectly answered a multiple-choice question.

The arbitrariness of Thane and Samara's deaths was shocking, but since the deaths didn't really mean anything beyond emphasizing my inability to choose the right person for the right job and that war is an intrinsically unfair, sad, and random thing, they didn't hit me as hard as they could have. This isn't to suggest that seemingly random or meaningless character death is an intrinsically poor storytelling tool (anyone who has seen Serenity can tell you this isn't the case), but the concept doesn't fit particularly well in a nonlinear roleplaying game where your choices are ostensibly meant to have direct and meaningful consequences.

There was a potentially beautiful moment near the very end of the mission, when my oldest friend (Garrus) and my love interest (Tali) seemed to be in serious danger.  The two were trapped under rubble, and the ship was collapsing all around us. I'd beaten the final boss, and the moment seemed like the perfect opportunity to throw one last wrench in the works -- to prevent me from basking in a moment of triumph by forcing me to choose which of my two favorite crew members to save before the entire ship was destroyed. I really, really didn't want to make that decision: I'd proven to the game that I cared about Garrus and Tali, because they were the two I trusted enough to take with me into the final battle. I didn't, under any circumstances, want either of them to die. I would have given almost anything to not make that choice.

And that's exactly why I should have been forced to.

ere

Mass Effect 2 could have been a story of sacrifice, leadership, tough decisions, and guilt. As it stands, it's about preparedness and shitty luck. The foundation is there for a tremendously affecting story about death -- the palpable sense of foreboding, the permanent consequence, and the narrative emphasis on compelling, sympathetic characters -- but the payoff falls short.

Or, to put it another way: I'm really looking forward to Mass Effect 3.








More gaming stories around the web. Got news? Submit yours to tips@destructoid.com



Post a comment! You can also post a photo below:

Comment with Facebook





Click connect and comment instantly!

Comment with Dtoid





New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds

184 comments | showing # 1 to 50
prev
next 50 comments

Mr Andy Dixon's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:03
Mr Andy Dixon
I was hoping to see a screen of your Shepard, Rev. You know, to see how the beards compare.

That said, good counter-point. I just hope my GameFly copy arrives before my daughter so I can actually play the fucking thing and experience the story for myself.
iluvalima's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:10
iluvalima
I'll assume that this is the same thing said in the podcast. Quick tip, play it right next time.
VashTS's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:10
VashTS
Interesting article. Im sure glad that a real sense of peril is starting to make it's way into games.
psycho terror2's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:10
psycho terror2
did you just spoil the end of mass effect 2 in the first sentence?

as if i needed another reason to hate you.
Chris Carter's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:13
Chris Carter
I think you're expecting too much out of the ending. They tried something different (pure entropy), and I thought it was a relatively different experience than what I've seen before. Because the deaths were so arbitrary, it mirrored what could easily happen in a real life suicide mission.

How do you know exactly which party member would be the best for the job, going into uncharted territory? It hints that you should take a tech/biotic for certain parts, but I really enjoyed the "edge of your seat" feel when I had to randomly pick someone I felt could do the job, rather than pick from a "50% survival rate; 25% survival rate" list. I felt responsible for whomever I sent on that particular suicide mission within our suicide mission.

I also think you would have gotten more out of particular character deaths if you cared about them. For instance, in my game, Jack refuses to talk to me because I stood up for Miranda: Jack died a terrible death, and I couldn't care less. I thought that was a fairly neat device.
Mueti's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:14
Mueti
Your thoughts on the moment after the final boss fight were the exact same as mine.
Narynan's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:14
Narynan
@ carlton banks...

Your a fool. Just like the tv show your from.

Also Anthony, i am moving towards the final encounter on the game as well. However, do you feel as though ME3 will play differently if you dont make the correct choices at the end of this. It appears as though the major point is IF shepard dies. Other than that, just like from ME1, I think the game will give you a new crew or just wash over the lack of the other characters. I mean I saved Wrex, and hes not even playable. Now, if thats something that is available in ME3, than i'm wrong. But really except for 2 moments right now, I've never felt like what I did in the first game had some kind of major impact on the second.
AdamantiumHip's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:14
AdamantiumHip
counterpoint to your counterpoint:

Fuck you, Mass Effect 2 is amazing.

The end.
Adam11's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:16
Adam11
How spoiler-y is this article? I'm not too far in the game just did the mission having to do with the colony and the "new threat" (trying to be vague) which leads into more recruitment. I want to read this but not yet if spoils a lot. That's also why I haven't listened to the rant about Wrex.
Adam11's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:18
Adam11
Side note: I'm loving the game but I'm playing on normal and I find the shooter/cover mechanics awful. I'm not a shooter pro or anything but I'm not bad and I die ALOT in ME2.
HEL105's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:19
HEL105
I didn't loose any of my crew, thank God, but I was certainly worried for them when I had to assign them tasks during the endgame. I was even freaking out and rushing to open those vents for Legion, to keep it from getting killed. Good game.
Kraid's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:19
Kraid
The way I interpreted your logic was like this; Thane is an assassin , he was in the vent shaft when I discovered him, therefore he will do the job of walking in the vent shaft in the "****" ship at the end. Well not really since the task clearly stated that an engineer or tech person would have been the optimum choice for the task.

Same with Samara, she's a support class. Adepts are there to crowd control and get heat off your back. She is not a leader, far from it. Hell she can't even control her own child. Samara was not a good choice to take head of the second fire team.

Were you eclipsed by your love for the characters to put them in such situations or it was blatant human error?

I mean , if you wanted to keep everyone alive why in the hell did you sent an assassin instead of a tech savvy party member like the game was hinting you on doing so. Same applies for the leader. (Assuming you did that of course)
HEL105's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:20
HEL105
*lose
Chin35char's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:20
Chin35char
I made it out alive with ALL of my team members. Can't wait for ME3!!!
Insane Enigma's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:21
Insane Enigma
Yes, that's it, get your hopes up high to only be slightly less disappointed then you are now in the future. So many missed opportunities. The game tries to make the deaths seem like they came out of nowhere, when in reality you could play the same scene numerous times with different squads and have a character die each time regardless. In my opinion, even if the deaths are up to luck and your decisions, I would still would have like a better explanation to why that person died instead of they died because you did not do this. That way I could have some closure and get a greater impact out of the experience.
True Axiom's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:21
True Axiom
I'm glad more games are using party member death. I've never understood why it was so ignored; it's like, we remember FFVII primarily *because* of character death and...I honestly can't think of more than a handful of games that have used it as a serious mechanic. Even NPCs you care about have a habit of surviving. To me, this violates the #1 rule of storytelling (make awful things happen to people you care about, to see what they're made of), and...I vividly remember the games where important NPCs die. I don't remember the others.

So on one hand, I see your point, it could have gone further. But...I also understand that developers are probably afraid of punching the player in the gut too many times, because they do not believe the player is made of anything serious, and will go play Explosions and Miniskirts Run Around 5 instead of their serious game.
Jabberwalk's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:21
Jabberwalk
After 3 of my team and in particular one of my favorite squad members ate it in the final mish, I shamefully ended up replaying the last mission to see if I could alter history and save his life. I still lost two good men but I made a better choice for one job (ironically the person I wanted to choose the first time but second guessed myself out of) and was able to trim the death toll to 2.

I don't know how this reflects on me as a commander. I picked the people I trusted the most to get the job done based on their talents, personality and history with me. Apparently the game thinks I make shitty choices and has some better option in mind. I don't buy it. The first death seems totally random and unrelated to the task I gave her (which she carried out problem free), and the second death also felt weird (maybe a little less) since I have no idea who would be better to lead a combat diversion. It felt like no matter what I did, I was bound to lose at least some people.

I'm actually fine with this. The whole game is about building up to this suicide mission, a confrontation no-one expects you to survive let alone emerge victorious. Maybe thats the point, that no matter how prepared you are and what kind of choices you make (even right ones) there is no way to avoid death and loss in war.

This message only works if the player is willing to exercise some self control however. If you are the type who will reload and choose different squadies until you find the "right" one for each situation who will survive, or if you go back and choose some sacraficial lambs you didn't much care for to take the bullet ("I know I bickered with Jack the whole time she was on my ship, lied to her, bullied her into compliance, and did everything I could to encourage her violent tendacies, but yeah she can totally lead the fire team!") it becomes inauthentic and the message losses all its power. I went in thinking "whatever happens, happens" and even with that attitude I couldn't resist replaying it at least once to see if I could save my buddy. I don't know if there is a solution to the players meta-gamer leanings Bioware could have come up with, but it would have been worth looking into.
BalloonFighter's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:21
BalloonFighter
Haven't played it yet but thats alot how I felt about the first. I can't remember my choices effecting much in terms of story and I was paranoid the whole time that they would.
KingSigy's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:22
KingSigy
I was worried that the end would be something of blind luck. It really makes me sad to know that I can save particular people because I don't put them in certain spots or that the game gives me a dialog choice to change that.
Lydeck's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:22
Lydeck
Anthony, I regret to inform you that the last part is there to reflect how good of a leader you are. You should know your characters good enough to put them in the correct tasks.

You got them killed because you ill-prepared your team.

Don't blame game mechanics for that.
Andrew Chason's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:25
Andrew Chason
I felt, in my heart that KNEW whomever I sent into the ducts, was dead. I chose Legion because: He is LEGION, and thus is not lost to me.

I sent Grunt back with the cremates I rescued, and I chose Zaeed to run my second team both times. When it came to the Force Bubble, I chose Samara(sp?); coulda swore -she- was dead, but she survived.

In the end I had three caskets. Zaeed, and Legion. Ones I could be comfortable with. However, when they were showing the sweeping view of the destruction I had caused before the explosion, there was Mordin's body. I was crushed. I to this day do not know what I did to cause that. I took him on missions, he was loyal, and had great gear. I never wanted this. The other two were -acceptable- losses.
CJDeathBlade's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:25
CJDeathBlade
I remember hearing in the podcast that you said that you had Samara be the leader of the other group, but being a justicar, she wasn't used to leading a team, and that would explain why she died. I think that if you know the characters well enough, you can make the right decisions as to who dies or not, i.e. it's not luck, it is direct choice. The main problem with it is the way that they depicted the deaths.

Also, with the having to get paragon points to regain the loyalty of the crew, I was actually quite worried that I worried be able to do it in the last mission I had left to do before going through the relay, so to an extent it was well done, but it could have been better.

When the collectors take your crew, I had no idea what was happening because I just went to a planet to buy some stuff and all of a sudden everything went to hell before I knew it, which kind of portrays how it would really have felt like.

They tried a lot of things, and I feel that they only worked if you were in the right mind-set, but otherwise it would have fallen a little flat.
Dennis Grapsas's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:27
Dennis Grapsas
If you knew the characters so much, you would know what's their specialties in the "multiple choice questions" as you call them. There's even brief descriptions to tell you. I did it on one try, and trust me, I'm not boasting. I used common sense, my decisions were decent throughout the game, but the ending was kinda obvious.
I used Legion (like you said I was fearful for some characters dying so I used him instead of Tali)
Miranda (She hints at being squad leader, after you reject her biotic and tech attempts) also it's kinda obvious since she's a Cerberus leader.
2nd squad leader: Miranda
Biotics: Samara (I have no idea how your Samara died)
And well, the escort was Jacob (I believe anyone loyal works there.

I'd like to know what team you picked Mr.Burch.
CJDeathBlade's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:27
CJDeathBlade
Also, I should say that none of my crew died, and I sent Legion into the ducts with Garrus being the leasder of the other team both times, sending Legion back with the survivors and haveing Jack put up the force field with full loyalty and upgrades for everyone. Did this set-up not work for anyone?
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:29
Tubatic
I'm really looking forward to getting to the last mission. So much build up but no actual planning (yet?). For what I've heard I *think* I can make some pretty solid choices on my personnel. Depending on who you ask, it seemed like Samara is a good choice to lead a groupd.

Somewhere in there, there shoudl be some sort of feedback to demystify your team choices, I figure. To hear you and Aaron talk about it on Podtoid.

Also, half the dudes in Seven Samurai died for no damn reason. Knowing I'm honestly able to save everybody kind of takes away from the impact a random-ass death can/should have... which I think you're saying, actually...
Guncannon's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:32
Guncannon
I thought the ending choices were fairly easy. No one died, since I followed the obvious choices of who to do each task ("Pick a tech expert"? How about pick the only tech expert, Tali?).

A better implementation would be if your tactics during the final battle affected the survival of the crew. I mean, there could have been multiple ways to beat the boss, with the player's own choice in gameplay (taking the easier route versus the challenging one) affecting if anyone dies. Combine that with the loyalty system, (e.g., Thane suggests an easier strategy, but since you didn't complete his loyalty mission, the Collectors mentally distract him while he implements it, resulting in his death) and it would be harder for the player to predict which actions would give them the "ideal" ending.
mizzougrad01's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:33
mizzougrad01
The only reason I got Subject Zero killed at the end of my game was because I did not choose the paragon multichoice answer when she was arguing with that other chick after her loyalty mission. I earned Subject Zero (Jack's) loyalty during the mission, but I guess I lost it at that multichoice popquiz moment. At the end of the game, all my other teammates survived, but inexplicately Jack layed there dead. I felt no remorse, as I was fully prepared for the mission and I did not do anything directly to cause her death. Needless to say, that was a cheap way to have her die in the game.
Zeta Crossfire's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:33
Zeta Crossfire
This might possible be THEE greatest game I have ever played. Seriously, great job BIOWARE.
ThunderHeartXI's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:34
ThunderHeartXI
I have to agree with the article. My only big criticism with Mass Effect 2 was the lack of the grey areas and player chosen high consequence (and irreversible) decisions that a game like Dragon Age had. I think the paragon/renegade point system that ME2 kept but DA:O ditched is the main reason that ME2 wasn't able to have as big of a narrative impact as it could have had (at least in terms of grey areas. Almost everything is clearly right and wrong in ME2). But I did make it out with all of my mates in one piece, if that's worth anything.

Either way though, I personally love ME2 with all of my heart and I simply cannot wait for the third game.
SuperDance's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:38
SuperDance
My problem with the game is how they handled the marketing. I don't have an issue with the revealing of the suicide mission mechanic as it creates the kind of suspense that Anthony is talking about.

No, my problem is that they kept saying during the lead up to the release, "Shepard could die permanently".

Imagine you beat the last level and watch the final cutscene in which your character died. Imagine the shock you would have felt and imagine your response to hearing your friend, who also beat the game, talking about how their character lived through the ending. Then imagine realizing that BioWare designed the game to monitor your actions and determine if Shepard would live through your game.

It's just that BioWare lost an amazing opportunity to completely shock the player because while watching an NPC you really liked die, it doesn't compare to watching your own character die for good and wondering how this would work with Mass Effect 3.
bluexy's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:40
bluexy
Your poor leadership choices had direct consequences on who lived or who died. Just because you never received the option to directly kill someone does not make you any less responsible for their deaths. Can you look back and say, "If I had only made Tali do that," or, "If only I had put more effort into making Samara a stronger part of this crew," or see any number of similar causal situations?

The greatest strength of Mass Effect 2 over Mass Effect was that it's choices weren't as obvious as the first one. It's much less of a, "this crew member or this crew member get to live," kind of game. The relationships are meaningful AND their development is directly linked to your crew's survival. In that way, the simple decisions become tough decisions, but perhaps that's only in looking back at them.

I spent a lot of time doing everything I could to ensure my crews survival, and every damn step of that final level I felt fucking on EDGE. At one point it looked like someone was shot and I almost turned the 360 off. I cared about my crew and the game rewarded me for my effort. It didn't punish me to make some trite statement about sacrifice. It made me feel important.
GenStrike's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:44
GenStrike
You only need 4 loyal characters to beat the suicide mission with no one dying (including the crew) although I've heard it has been done with 3.
Shadowiii's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:47
Shadowiii
Oh come now, we all knew if it was an indie game the decision would be "fresh" and "original."
You know I kid.
You really should post some freaking spoiler warnings for this, though, especially that first sentence. I thought this was just going to be a counter-review, not ruining many key points of the Mass Effect 2 plot. Come on, Anthony, don't ruin the game for us who have to go to work and school instead of playing the game all day.
Blind Avarice's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:47
Blind Avarice
I had much more, um, expected loss than you did. However, I saw the mechanics at work very clearly and was also disappointed by them in the same way you were. Because that's just what they were, mechanical decisions.

I feel (as some others do) that you made incorrect decisions about the special teams, but more playthroughs are required to know for sure whether that even matters. It might not. The only character I lost was Legion, who I sent into the vent system without my loyalty. I just really didn't want to lose Tali and she was my only other 'correct' option for the job. Didn't want to lose Legion either, but hey that's the choice. Garrus was the only one that made sense to me for the fire team. He's lead, and lost a squad; Garrus is completely qualified, and based on the regret from losing the old squad he would make sure to keep this one intact. Again, I don't really know if those are the life or death choices, having only finished once. Even if they were correct, they were not moral choices but mechanical ones.

Unfortunately, this was the best chance for Bioware to make death matter. You'll be dealing with the loss for the entire next game, coloring the entire mood of the experience. People that die in ME3 will only be a footnote in an epilogue, which I expect will have much less resonance.
D-503's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:53
D-503
I had never heard the word preparedness before this post, and while it is the perfect word for what you're saying, I hope I never hear it again. Perhaps it's the ugliest word in all of language...

Aside from that you make an interesting point. Though I haven't played the game, so, I dunno, you could be dead right or talking out of your ass for all I know.
Robert's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:57
Robert
Yeah, I'd be pissed if I read this before I beat it.

At least put some big spoiler warnings. Even if you know "theoretically, my team can die," that doesn't mean you wouldn't be mad to hear that two characters died for lame reasons (or what you perceive to be lame reasons).
luigilogyk's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 16:59
luigilogyk
Your people died cause you chose the wrong people for the Job, Thane is an assassin not a tech expert, he fucks up closing the door has to close it manually and gets his head blown off.Mordin is more of a Doctor than a tech (and is kinda bumbling and twitchy) Samara is lone wolf Justicar not a Team Leader. it's also a bad choice to choose a Leader who is hated by another character. I chose Tali to get the Door, then Garrus both times to lead (Samara to hold the bio field) and they all survived, even though Miranda had sand in her Vagina.
MurderMamba's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:06
MurderMamba
Anthony, I'd like to say that I can see why you would think that the characters you picked were good choices for those roles, but they really were not. The vents mission needed someone who is good at tech more than someone who can sneak around. Crawling through the vents was a way to get to the actual objective. That was not the skill they needed; they needed to be able to be good with tech. And Samara is a Justicar, which is a sect of basically battle monks. They live alone, train alone, and her missions specifically say that she generally stayed in asari space. She was a terrible leadership choice. She lives a life of solitude, and is not a commander, but more of a lone soldier. I'm not saying this to disprove your point, as I only lost one party member, and have not really seen what you're describing first hand, but I just wanted to say this in hopes you'd read it. I think that you are being a bit too confident on your analysis of what the situation needed, and that it is affecting the argument you are making.
Budboy311's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:07
Budboy311
Anthony, I think you missed the point. You say you spent the whole game getting to know the characters, however, if you had, you would have chosen the correct people for the jobs at hand. Luck is not involved. You need a tech for the job that says needs a tech, a strong biotic to hold a biotic field, and good leaders for the various leadership positions. If you used Thane for any of these, that was the wrong choice. The game shows you he is a loner, who is not a skilled biotic or tech. He is an assassin. Therefore, not to be used as a main choice. Samara will only fit in as a biotic, and is one of the choices for that job, and that job only. Playing the game and doing the side quests to get to know these characters informs you for the endgame. Ignoring the most important parts of the individual missions will get them killed in the end. It is unfair to say they died because of luck. You killed them by placing them in those positions. Positions they were unfit for. And that is a pretty important point the game is making. You are the leader of this squad, and your decisions are responsible for the lives and deaths of your squad members.
Secret Cow's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:10
Secret Cow
I had a similar reaction to the ending. Especially because I did every loyalty mission, every sidequest, and got every upgrade, and one character still died OFFSCREEN. It felt completely arbitrary and unsatisfying. Worse, it was a character who I hadn't selected as a leader or a specialist. My choices throughout the game and during the suicide mission had no bearing on his death. I replayed the ending and kept him in my party, and he lived. It really took a lot of the impact out of the ending.

I agree completely with your point that the character relationships you've built ultimately take a back seat to grinding that you've done and a few good guesses. I found it disappointing after all the promotional material emphasizing loyalty as the key ingredient in survival.

I guess for me the word "loyalty" was the misleading part. I expected loyal characters might do something heroic in the events of the ending that determine whether the team lives or dies, or disloyal character might just say "eph this" and leave themselves or others to die. That's what I was hoping for. Instead, loyalty just determines whether or not someone gets randomly shot. To me, that isn't really what loyalty is about.

I'd also thought (hoped) that conversations that you'd had throughout the game would have some bearing on the choices the characters make at the end. Some of the squad mates (Mordin for example) have tough ethical choices to confront, and you (seemingly) can steer their thinking. But it turns out in the end none of that matters either. It would have been nice to see a paragon-influenced jack save Miranda from a collector or something like that.

I enjoyed the game, but I didn't feel that the suicide mission and all the pre-release loyalty hype delivered. The ending felt rushed, and like a bit of a cop out.
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:12
Anthony Burch
By request, I'm including the exact choices I made in the final mission. I had every single ship and character upgrade (except for a few of Shepard's later armor upgrades), and every single squad member was loyal except for Zaeed.

I played the ending one and a half times in the first weekend. I'm accepting the deaths of my first playthrough, but I wanted to try again just to see if anything changed.

First playthrough:
-Vent: Thane. The way the whole vent situation is discussed, it sounded (to me) far less like "pick someone who is really great at tech" and more like "someone will be sneaking through vents and opening a door at the very end of that sneaking bit," implying that vent survival was more important than their ability to fuse wires together.
-First fireteam: Samara. I was torn between choosing her or Garrus, but as Garrus had already lost a team I didn't feel that reflected too well on his survival skills (Miranda didn't seem like a great option because since Jack wasn't in my squad, it meant the two of them would be fighting the entire time; Jacob was an extension of the Cerberus shit that angered Jack, so I didn't want to risk him either). The pre-choice dialogue specifically asks you to choose someone with EXPERIENCE, Samara's summary profile thing in the choice menu speaks highly of her EXPERIENCE, and after you choose her, Miranda congratulates you for choosing someone with so much EXPERIENCE. And she lives.
-Second fireteam: Samara. Since she did perfectly well in the first fireteam, I saw absolutely no reason not to use her the second time; there was no effective difference between the actual missions of the first and second diversionary fireteams, so it was a surprise to have the previously-capable Samara suddenly complain that her team was taking heavy fire, eventually culminating in her getting shot through a closing door.
-Biotic escort: Jack. She was loyal, and by far the most powerful biotic around (just in terms of what the story says).
-Escorting survivors: Jacob. I was beginning to get worried the game was just going to kill whomever I picked for any given job, and I didn't really care about Jacob (though I did respect his battle experience and trusted him to, at the very least, get Kelly and Chakwas back to the Normandy).

Second playthrough:
-First fireteam: Samara. She worked out fine the first time -- saw no reason not to choose her again.
-Vent: Tali. Since every walkthrough and forum post I saw mentioned it was more important to sent a techie than anything else, I chose Tali.

Tali died in the exact same way Thane did: closing a door, putting her head out too far.

Many of you are arguing that by killing Thane and Samara, the game is telling me that I don't know my crew very well. If that's so, then one would assume that on a second playthrough, Tali shouldn't die under the exact same circumstances.

If the game is trying to say that I shouldn't have picked Samara for the first fireteam or something, it should have connected that specific choice to the vent soldier's death in some way. If it's saying I shouldn't have picked her for the second fireteam, then the circumstances surrounding that second fireteam mission should have seemed drastically different from the first; she did perfectly well on the first mission, so why wouldn't I choose her for the second?
bEAR's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:15
bEAR
Thanks for issuing a spoiler without warning.
Das Ferret's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:17
Das Ferret
Agreed on all accounts. The main reason I'm playing through a second time is because the outcome of the first playthrough wasn't actually based on my decisions.
Aurain's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:25
Aurain
Spoiler Heavy!
x
x
x

If you have the wrong person in the wrong slot, That Wrong Person can get the Right Person in the Right Slot elsewhere killed. May not make perfect sense, but that's how Bioware have programmed the game.

Samara is a loner, She's not a leader. That has a butterfly effect. I've read that if the leader of the second team is wrong, (ie Samara) the Door person gets it, (ie Tali)

You said you didn't have faith in Garrus? Garrus was stabbed in the back, his poor leadership didn't lose the team. Samara explicitly says that she's been alone for 400 years. She's not a good team leader.

Thane should be able to do the Vent Crawling, but he's a no-hoper when it comes to Tech stuff.

Mordin seems to be susceptible to dying irregardless, even if you follow someone else's successful route to the letter.


x
x
x
Spoilers
bEAR's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:27
bEAR
Isn't it priority one for someone writing about a game, not to spoil *anything* about it? You should have your front page publishing access removed. Furthermore, you should get a clue.

Thanks.
Druid 01's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:27
Druid 01
thane died because he was nowhere near the most qualified member of your team to complete the task you assigned him, i think that makes sense and if you were to replay it and send legion in his place you would notice the significant difference. i made the same mistake however.

i didnt lose anyone else though cus i guess i evaluated there strength/weaknesses well

fuck tali
Budboy311's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:32
Budboy311
Tali is dying because Samara is the wrong choice. When Shepard's team makes it to the door, Tali is delayed getting the door open because she has to help the first team. She doesn't have time to spend getting the door shut properly, it jams, she dies.

Put a leader in the slot you have Samara in, i.e. Garrus, and the cinematic changes. Garrus' team will make it in clean, and Tali will get the second team in clean as well.

I had the same problem, I used Tali in the vent and Zaeed as team leader. Tali died. Then I switched to Legion, thinking he's good at tech as well, but still used Zaeed. Legion gets it in the face. I was pissed at this point, because I wanted to get the team through safe, so I switched to Garrus as team leader, and put Tali back on tech, everyone made it. Having the right person in one spot and the wrong person in another will get the right person killed. Just like real life, right? All choices have to line up in war, or good people get good and dead.
Druid 01's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/02/2010 17:32
Druid 01
personally i did it this way for 100%

legion - vent/hax

jack - biotic shield

garrus - 2x team leader

grunt - protect the bitches going back to the ship
prev next 50 comments

Comment with Facebook





Click connect and comment instantly!

Comment with Dtoid





New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds

Comments policy

Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?

Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!