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This thread is going to be interesting and full of fanboys on both sides. May the biggest loser win.
Yes, a million times yes! You've encapsulated exactly how I feel about XIII, and I want to say thank you for doing such a good job! Thank you Chad!! :D
Your top 5 FF's are almost exactly the same as mine. You're now my bro.
I agree with most of this. I thought the game was a solid 7.5. It did feel a little restictive at times, but after I got into the whole "fugitive on the run" mentality, it stopped bothering me. I loved the characters, had a great time with the battle system, and I thought the story was ok. It wad very different, and FFVIII and XII have taught me that a lot of people are going to automatically hate the "different" Final Fantasy games, no matter how good they may be.
Still, I respect Jim's opinion. And anyone else's who didn't like the game, but acknowledges that other, more open-minded gamers, could find a lot to love in FFXIII.
I agree with most of this. I thought the game was a solid 7.5. It did feel a little restictive at times, but after I got into the whole "fugitive on the run" mentality, it stopped bothering me. I loved the characters, had a great time with the battle system, and I thought the story was ok. It wad very different, and FFVIII and XII have taught me that a lot of people are going to automatically hate the "different" Final Fantasy games, no matter how good they may be.
Still, I respect Jim's opinion. And anyone else's who didn't like the game, but acknowledges that other, more open-minded gamers, could find a lot to love in FFXIII.
Here here! Although I didn't actually read this post because I'm "close" to finishing it, I agree with the sentiment. And if the definition of insanity is repeating, essentially, the same thing over and over for sixty plus hours, someone throw me in the nut house right away because I'm loving my own little slice of insaneousness...
Ok after going through the article, I feel your reasons defending the game aren't enough to justify a significantly higher review score. You've only mentioned two reasons, graphics and nostalgia both of which are very very subjective. I do agree that Jim scored the game way too low but I fully understand why he scored the way he did, graphics don't make a game great nor does nostalgia. Otherwise Perfect Dark for XBL would get a 10 by default.
Sorry, but no matter how pretty the graphics are, the game has a 30 hour entrance fee flaw that can't be overlooked (well, obviousoly FF fantaics CAN overlook it). Even after getting to the open ended part of the game, I put it to the side...I was just worn out by the single minded, linear trudge to that point in the game.
I tend to agree that Jim's reivew was overly harsh, but every point he made was valid (my score would have been a 6.5). If gamers continue to accept pretty eye candy in place of actual gameplay and content, this industry will slide down the crapper like TV of late. I'm not saying it will go belly up, it will just not produce anything worth my consideration or gaming dollar.
I tend to agree that Jim's reivew was overly harsh, but every point he made was valid (my score would have been a 6.5). If gamers continue to accept pretty eye candy in place of actual gameplay and content, this industry will slide down the crapper like TV of late. I'm not saying it will go belly up, it will just not produce anything worth my consideration or gaming dollar.
huh, i was dissapointed by FF13 but it wasnt a terrible game either. i think it was great, but not amazing.
If this game didn't have FINAL FANTASY on the cover, it wouldn't have garnered any socres over an 8. That's a jab at the game review industry, not Square Enix, BTW.
If this game didn't have FINAL FANTASY on the cover, it wouldn't have garnered any socres over an 8. That's a jab at the game review industry, not Square Enix, BTW.
I haven't gotten FFXIII yet, but I am still very excited to play it this summer. I haven't bought into any of the negative hype surrounding it, probably because I'm NOT a diehard FF fan, and I don't think my expectations are high enough to be dashed so hard.
@Jarmel,
I agree with you. I don't necessarily think the original score should have been higher (although I would have scored it higher, that's for sure). I just feel there are many more things to admire about the game -- the graphics and classic feel were huge factors in why I love it. That's what I wanted to point out. :)
I agree with you. I don't necessarily think the original score should have been higher (although I would have scored it higher, that's for sure). I just feel there are many more things to admire about the game -- the graphics and classic feel were huge factors in why I love it. That's what I wanted to point out. :)
I've been skeptical about picking this up, but your top 5 is pretty much the same as mine (read: your opinion is objectively correct and full of inarguable truth). Therefore, I shall pick up FFXIII....as soon as Amazon has one of those sales on it.
After I played through the majority of the game, I still had no attachment to any of the characters. I felt like Square expected me to love their world and culture they created within the game as much as they did while creating it. No Character stood out to me that much and splitting up your party that early on in the game was a poor decision, those sections with Sazh and Vanille were torture.
xiii was my favorite final fantasy and the best game i've played in a while. jim sterling makes me laugh every time i come to this site, but i don't trust his reviews at all. good thing sir chad is here to set things straight. :)
Counter-Counter-Point "Beautiful Classics" don't tend to take 25 hours to get good.
XIII is not a classic, I hope it gets marked as a mistake (Hi there, Second Hand shops in Japan) and the next Non-online FF isn't an up and out mistake.
Less XIII and more Strange Journey.
XIII is not a classic, I hope it gets marked as a mistake (Hi there, Second Hand shops in Japan) and the next Non-online FF isn't an up and out mistake.
Less XIII and more Strange Journey.
Chad, I love your enthusiasm and your energy – and as I person in general, I love to hear your thoughts.
But I disagree all over the place.
I'll apply my disagreements in a little bit after this thread fills up with banter. Or maybe I won't.
FYI: I really like these counterpoints. Want more.
But I disagree all over the place.
I'll apply my disagreements in a little bit after this thread fills up with banter. Or maybe I won't.
FYI: I really like these counterpoints. Want more.
@Br0 - You consider the "real game" to be playing walkaround whack-a-mole with marked monsters? Dude that's so sad. To be honest my interest sort of dropped at that point because all of the character conflict and development story stopped flowing.
If all you get out of FFXIII is a prettier RPG to grind XP and random items in, go ahead but don't make any big pronouncements about how "everyone else" is killing creativity in the game industry.
If all you get out of FFXIII is a prettier RPG to grind XP and random items in, go ahead but don't make any big pronouncements about how "everyone else" is killing creativity in the game industry.
Even when someone slams a game you love, you still make the happiest posts. You're the most positive person on the internet.
I stick by my story. If a game takes 20 hours to get truly interesting, it is a bad game. If a game cannot adhere to the normal Shakespearean rules of "how to keep an audience enthralled", the game play better make up for it. Sadly, it does not.
I like the battle system although few battles are really exciting, also, the majority of the "boss" fights are more than underwhelming, and the fact that 70% of the game you only have two members in your party is rather awful.
I liked the story, although somewhat like a poor-mans Soul Reaver 2 with a lot of pink melodrama, but I think I only liked it because I went through the annoying chore of reading the Datalogs, because without them nothing makes sense.
Next game that tries to only make sense through repetitive texts while at the same time having long video sequences, will be a no buy for me. Fool me once shame on you...
I liked the story, although somewhat like a poor-mans Soul Reaver 2 with a lot of pink melodrama, but I think I only liked it because I went through the annoying chore of reading the Datalogs, because without them nothing makes sense.
Next game that tries to only make sense through repetitive texts while at the same time having long video sequences, will be a no buy for me. Fool me once shame on you...
@Company,
I am actually excited to hear your thoughts! I know a lot of people are going to disagree with this. But what can I say? I loved the game! :)
I am actually excited to hear your thoughts! I know a lot of people are going to disagree with this. But what can I say? I loved the game! :)
@Conan-san,
See? That's where I disagree. Final Fantasy XIII does take a long time to truly "open up", but, for me, it is good from start to finish! :)
See? That's where I disagree. Final Fantasy XIII does take a long time to truly "open up", but, for me, it is good from start to finish! :)
Chad, let us make a baby, let it be grand. We will name our mutant man on man squareenxi baby Celes, or Sabin, or perhaps Gogo, if it's a hermy.
There was something about it that I couldn't quite put my finger on until recently.
It was too...real.
This is kinda hard to explain and probably sounds stupid but I think it would have worked better if it was a PS2 game with generic PS2 graphics, shorter storyline, even worse voice acting and dialogue, and worse music. Also by not made by Square at all and by not being a Final Fantasy game.
That sounds ridiculous but think about it. That sort of thing could be a cult classic, like Troll 2.
That was why I couldn't love it. For me, it wasn't good enough to be "good" but it wasn't bad enough to be "so bad it's good". The blockbuster treatment and whole Final Fantasy branding kinda ruined the experience for me. :/
It was too...real.
This is kinda hard to explain and probably sounds stupid but I think it would have worked better if it was a PS2 game with generic PS2 graphics, shorter storyline, even worse voice acting and dialogue, and worse music. Also by not made by Square at all and by not being a Final Fantasy game.
That sounds ridiculous but think about it. That sort of thing could be a cult classic, like Troll 2.
That was why I couldn't love it. For me, it wasn't good enough to be "good" but it wasn't bad enough to be "so bad it's good". The blockbuster treatment and whole Final Fantasy branding kinda ruined the experience for me. :/
Four outta ten still. Linear game us linear.
Which isn't a bad thing in FF - in VII Midgar is very linear, it doesn't let you go back to other sections. But - there are still places to walk to NOT IN A STRAIGHT LINE. And Midgar only lasts 5 hours or so before the world opens up. 30 hours is too much.
Which isn't a bad thing in FF - in VII Midgar is very linear, it doesn't let you go back to other sections. But - there are still places to walk to NOT IN A STRAIGHT LINE. And Midgar only lasts 5 hours or so before the world opens up. 30 hours is too much.
Final Fantasy XIII could have been much better if the first 20 hours weren't a horribly long tutorial in disguise. 20 hours of linearity, 20 hours bore IS NOT how I describe a good game. Fortunately it gets better when you finally arrive to Pulse.
It's a good game overall but it's not a good Final Fantasy.
I'm glad to see FF XII in your top 5, this is the most underrated/underestimated Final Fantasy EVER. It's for sure one of my favourites.
It's a good game overall but it's not a good Final Fantasy.
I'm glad to see FF XII in your top 5, this is the most underrated/underestimated Final Fantasy EVER. It's for sure one of my favourites.
How about the fact that the "gameplay" for the first four or so hours consists of merely tapping the X button repeatedly? How does that qualify it as a classic?
I haven't played FF XIII but I intend to someday. But after reading Jim's review and watching Zero Punctuation, I'm not so sure I'll like it...
However, I can see Chad has got a good taste in his favorites FFs. My top 5 is pretty like his, except IX is in first.
However, I can see Chad has got a good taste in his favorites FFs. My top 5 is pretty like his, except IX is in first.
This game is the most "Final Fantasy" FF since FF9.
It's a great game, but you do need to give it an opportunity to wow you.
It's an easy 8 in my book.
As for the "20 hours to get interesting" argument.
I'd prefer a game to take 20 hours to become interesting rather than 20 hours to be shelved and done.
It's a great game, but you do need to give it an opportunity to wow you.
It's an easy 8 in my book.
As for the "20 hours to get interesting" argument.
I'd prefer a game to take 20 hours to become interesting rather than 20 hours to be shelved and done.
I'm just through Nautilus in the game. I will say that before I reached Palumpolum, I had a very hard time sitting down and playing. However, since the first cutscene there, I've found the game much more enjoyable. Can't wait for the rest.
Plus, Chocobo song with lyrics!
Plus, Chocobo song with lyrics!
Having yet to play the game, I can appreciate the things Jim disliked about it, at least in theory. Those type of frustrations he encountered annoy me in video games and I don't doubt it will make me scowl at certain parts of the story.
However, the nostalgia of this series and the whole "stopping and spinning the control stick to view the world" thing....yeah, I can completely relate to that. As a matter of fact, moments like that are some of my happiest in gaming.
Thanks for the counterpoint Chad, it assures me that while I don't think this game will make it too high up on my Final Fantasy list, it is at very least worth a play through and the experience.
However, the nostalgia of this series and the whole "stopping and spinning the control stick to view the world" thing....yeah, I can completely relate to that. As a matter of fact, moments like that are some of my happiest in gaming.
Thanks for the counterpoint Chad, it assures me that while I don't think this game will make it too high up on my Final Fantasy list, it is at very least worth a play through and the experience.
SPOILERS
i have to jump on the "20 hour tutorials suck" bandwagon. eventually i got into the game after i got to gran pulse. i clocked in 85 hours into the game, and i finished it w/o any desire to go back and complete the cieth missions. the boss fights are scripted, the story is just not that great, and the battle system although fun, is basically just the same thing over and over again. (libra, buff/debuff, attack+heal)
i have to jump on the "20 hour tutorials suck" bandwagon. eventually i got into the game after i got to gran pulse. i clocked in 85 hours into the game, and i finished it w/o any desire to go back and complete the cieth missions. the boss fights are scripted, the story is just not that great, and the battle system although fun, is basically just the same thing over and over again. (libra, buff/debuff, attack+heal)
Agreed with nearly everything. Not so much your final series ranking list (VIII FOREVER!) and the storyline being ''confusing'' (I seriously am not understand where anyone is getting this from, it's pretty straight forward), but otherwise everything.
XIII seems like an FF for people who really love the FF series. Not just people who bang on and on about VII remakes or swear that one of VI/VII/VIII/IX/X are the best and every other game in the series is the wost game ever created, I mean people who really love the whole series. There are so many references, so many call backs to previous games. It really does feel like an instant classic and it doesn't stick out (in a negative way) from the other games.
XIII seems like an FF for people who really love the FF series. Not just people who bang on and on about VII remakes or swear that one of VI/VII/VIII/IX/X are the best and every other game in the series is the wost game ever created, I mean people who really love the whole series. There are so many references, so many call backs to previous games. It really does feel like an instant classic and it doesn't stick out (in a negative way) from the other games.
Some good points, i agree that it was way underappreciated by a lot of people for reasons that are just way outweighed by the qualities it has.
The battle system feels like a natural step forward, where we aren't limited by artificial MP systems. That kind of thing just wouldn't work given how fast you are required to make decisions and actions.
I would add a point about the 20hour mark issue. You can easilly spend 70 hours in this game, 50 hours of good certainly outweighs 20 hours of adequate IMO.
Once the game opens up there is so much to do and lots of customizations.
The battle system feels like a natural step forward, where we aren't limited by artificial MP systems. That kind of thing just wouldn't work given how fast you are required to make decisions and actions.
I would add a point about the 20hour mark issue. You can easilly spend 70 hours in this game, 50 hours of good certainly outweighs 20 hours of adequate IMO.
Once the game opens up there is so much to do and lots of customizations.
@ Chad: I'm 30 hours in now and I'm finally roaming around gran pulse, but I keep dying... a lot. The difficulty level seems to ramp up quite a bit here. Suggestions on leveling up?
Neat counterpoint. However, I felt like all the references and namechecks from previous FF games were just a cheap attempt to draw in the rabid fanboys, and weren't really necessary. :(
@SandNMyShorts,
The same thing happened to me!
I would suggest completing the early missions (#1-16) to unlock the Chocobos. Once you have them it makes running around Pulse SO much easier and will allow you to find groups of enemies that you can actually defeat.
The best thing you can do to level up is complete the "red" mission that opens up the red gate in the hidden alcove near the south-wast (I think) end of Pulse. This path will lead to a vast subterranean level where a bunch of easy-to-defeat enemies live. The great thing about these enemies, though, is that they give you tons of Crystarium points. Hang out around there for a while and you will level up super quick!
I hope that helps! :)
The same thing happened to me!
I would suggest completing the early missions (#1-16) to unlock the Chocobos. Once you have them it makes running around Pulse SO much easier and will allow you to find groups of enemies that you can actually defeat.
The best thing you can do to level up is complete the "red" mission that opens up the red gate in the hidden alcove near the south-wast (I think) end of Pulse. This path will lead to a vast subterranean level where a bunch of easy-to-defeat enemies live. The great thing about these enemies, though, is that they give you tons of Crystarium points. Hang out around there for a while and you will level up super quick!
I hope that helps! :)
@Suriyou,
To the contrary! I adore that game! But, again, refer to the delicious cupcake analogy. :)
To the contrary! I adore that game! But, again, refer to the delicious cupcake analogy. :)
There ARE a lot poor things in this game:
Crafting System
It is pure crap. For starters it's completely unnecessary, I didn't upgrade a single one of my weapons and I got through the first play through which lasted about 55 hours (skipping most side missions). The interface is horrid, you need a guide / print out of what EXP values each raw material gives sitting next to you so you don't have to constantly flip through each item to figure out EXP values. And it's not very intuitive. Why is it I can add a sticky goo substance to my gun and get a EXP multiplier of 0.5, then I add a bone to the gun and it drops my multiplier to 0.25? You'd think a gun would get jammed if I added slime goo to it...
Characters
-> A couple of the characters are very well rounded (Sazh, Vanille, Fang) a couple are stereotypical (Hope and Snow) and the "main" character (Lightning) is so one dimensional / flat that it's embarrassing. I think it has to do partly with the way the character is setup and partly to do with the voice actress who did Lightening. Which will be different for the English version, so lets hope at least the voice actress is good. But over all except for one or two of the characters, the rest don't pop out at you or even leave a lasting impression. And this is a major drawback because the games story relies and focuses on the characters struggles rather than the typical FF world ending story that is present.
Story
-> As much as the story was fairly simple at it's base, I thought it was too understated. Most of the game is focused on each characters struggles and inner turmoils / losses, but because most of the characters are so flat this doesn't really leave a lasting impression. Throw in the basic FF world ending scenario which doesn't get highlighted enough and you get a rather unmemorable story.
Enemy characters
-> The biggest beef I have with this game, the major human enemies you fight. I'm not going to give away spoilers, but a lot of the "major" enemy characters show up, give you their background story in one big lump then you fight them and defeat them. While I understand they didn't want to go the route of say a Kefka or a Sephiroth who is either pure evil or pure conflicted, but most of the main human bad guys barely show up in the story and don't leave any sort of impression on you, so when you do defeat them it's like... meh, whatever moving on.
Having said all that, it is still a game that I recommend to people if they like RPG-ish games. The battle system is layered so new and old will have fun with it (although I now rank Resonance of Fates battle system more fun), and the graphics are so stunning nothing on any of the consoles beats it.
Part of the problem I think is there was so much negative press about FFXIII, fair and a lot of unfair criticisms, that even people looking forward to the game became depressed before ever even playing it. If you go out looking for flaws you're going to find them, and people were already jaded into hating FFXIII.
I'm looking forward to FFXV, since FFXIV is a MMO, and I hope they expand and "improve" on the elements created for FFXIII.
Crafting System
It is pure crap. For starters it's completely unnecessary, I didn't upgrade a single one of my weapons and I got through the first play through which lasted about 55 hours (skipping most side missions). The interface is horrid, you need a guide / print out of what EXP values each raw material gives sitting next to you so you don't have to constantly flip through each item to figure out EXP values. And it's not very intuitive. Why is it I can add a sticky goo substance to my gun and get a EXP multiplier of 0.5, then I add a bone to the gun and it drops my multiplier to 0.25? You'd think a gun would get jammed if I added slime goo to it...
Characters
-> A couple of the characters are very well rounded (Sazh, Vanille, Fang) a couple are stereotypical (Hope and Snow) and the "main" character (Lightning) is so one dimensional / flat that it's embarrassing. I think it has to do partly with the way the character is setup and partly to do with the voice actress who did Lightening. Which will be different for the English version, so lets hope at least the voice actress is good. But over all except for one or two of the characters, the rest don't pop out at you or even leave a lasting impression. And this is a major drawback because the games story relies and focuses on the characters struggles rather than the typical FF world ending story that is present.
Story
-> As much as the story was fairly simple at it's base, I thought it was too understated. Most of the game is focused on each characters struggles and inner turmoils / losses, but because most of the characters are so flat this doesn't really leave a lasting impression. Throw in the basic FF world ending scenario which doesn't get highlighted enough and you get a rather unmemorable story.
Enemy characters
-> The biggest beef I have with this game, the major human enemies you fight. I'm not going to give away spoilers, but a lot of the "major" enemy characters show up, give you their background story in one big lump then you fight them and defeat them. While I understand they didn't want to go the route of say a Kefka or a Sephiroth who is either pure evil or pure conflicted, but most of the main human bad guys barely show up in the story and don't leave any sort of impression on you, so when you do defeat them it's like... meh, whatever moving on.
Having said all that, it is still a game that I recommend to people if they like RPG-ish games. The battle system is layered so new and old will have fun with it (although I now rank Resonance of Fates battle system more fun), and the graphics are so stunning nothing on any of the consoles beats it.
Part of the problem I think is there was so much negative press about FFXIII, fair and a lot of unfair criticisms, that even people looking forward to the game became depressed before ever even playing it. If you go out looking for flaws you're going to find them, and people were already jaded into hating FFXIII.
I'm looking forward to FFXV, since FFXIV is a MMO, and I hope they expand and "improve" on the elements created for FFXIII.
I stop reading your expose after reading the words "blown away" and "graphics" peppered throughout your opening paragraphs. If those shallow and overused describing words drive your premise then your opinion is of no consequence in my purview. I hated the game a month ago and I hate it more now, thanks!
Your ranked list is EXACTLY the same as mine, FFVI is by a great amount the best, and VII and X are overrated crap that should stay below XII's awesomeness.
@SWE3tMadness,
I actually kind of get what you are saying and I appreciate the argument. I am a huge Final Fantasy fan and may have been a little blinded at times. OMG LOOK A CHOCOBO! :)
I actually kind of get what you are saying and I appreciate the argument. I am a huge Final Fantasy fan and may have been a little blinded at times. OMG LOOK A CHOCOBO! :)
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