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This just reinforces waiting for the price of new games to be slashed on sites like Amazon etc. Then, there will be little to no traffic on the servers for those smaller titles... oh, fuck...
And now it's turned into a fanboy war. I wonder what I should call this one?
The Battle of the PSN Pass.
Nah, sounds too respectable. Anyone have any suggestions?
The Battle of the PSN Pass.
Nah, sounds too respectable. Anyone have any suggestions?
Well I'll simply be waiting for the used game to drop to $10-15 in price.
Fuck Sony if they think they can scare me.
Fuck Sony if they think they can scare me.
Geez, look at it this way, sony GIVES you an extra game for the same price, that extra is quite fun, its called, take these numbers and letters, and type them in these little boxes IN THE SAME ORDER. It's a fun kind of challenging, you guys should be praising Sony and Activision...
@Thunder Monti
Microsoft already does it by charging for multiplayer service in the first place. Don't worry though, it was still nice of you to welcome PS3 users to your thinly veiled pity party.
Microsoft already does it by charging for multiplayer service in the first place. Don't worry though, it was still nice of you to welcome PS3 users to your thinly veiled pity party.
@Monti
"Also don't wanna brag but you are dumb for even buying a sony console good luck fitting sony cases in a dvd rack !"
Hahahaha aww they should give you position on staff here really.
"Also don't wanna brag but you are dumb for even buying a sony console good luck fitting sony cases in a dvd rack !"
Hahahaha aww they should give you position on staff here really.
Where in that statement does it say "ALL" games? For all we know this could mean some games will while other won't. (Example: Killzone games need a pass, but Little Big Planet 3 won't) Oh wait it destructoid, without their misleading titles they wouldn't be getting as many hits.
Dont see this shit with nintendo :P
Nintendo rewards people who buy new games in the form of star points, instead of punishing those who dont
Thats a pattern you see with the other consoles; punishment.
Dont pay extra for gold status? no online play.
Have gold but did'nt buy the game new? pay for you're disloyalty
Its sad that Xbox is the most popular in America when they and thier games treat customers this way. At the very least Sony lets you play online free.
Nintendo rewards people who buy new games in the form of star points, instead of punishing those who dont
Thats a pattern you see with the other consoles; punishment.
Dont pay extra for gold status? no online play.
Have gold but did'nt buy the game new? pay for you're disloyalty
Its sad that Xbox is the most popular in America when they and thier games treat customers this way. At the very least Sony lets you play online free.
@Nephlaboo
Here's the thing. You'll be able to buy the game new for $19.99 months before you'll ever find it used for $15. If you ever find it used for $15.
Here's the thing. You'll be able to buy the game new for $19.99 months before you'll ever find it used for $15. If you ever find it used for $15.
what the fuck? sony? wtf? you want to make as much money as activision COD? but you can't ? so now you are charging for multiplayer on all ur games? you think you are fixing it now? you think you are going to make as much money as COD now? you know what? you won't . you just lost 1 fucking costumer. from now on I'm going to rent only, ALL ur fucking sony-only games, theres no way in hell I'm supporting this fucking shit. its bullshit.i can't wait to buy Dark Souls new, not used ,new!! because from software isn't using this online pass shit and they deserve my money. also I'm going to buy COD MW3, because, they deserve my money too, because its online is better than resistance 3 online, and it comes with each copy of the game, not only the NEW ones. fuck this shit, fuck you sony >:C
If a game's multiplayer is actually worth it's salt and worth your time, it's probably worth it to spend the full price for the new copy. Sure, it's bullshit and it's stupid and misguided, but if you buy new you're not really being affected.
Let's just move on and get past this. None of you are going to boycott anything. As soon as a game you love gets an online pass you'll be drinking the kool-aid and punching in your code.
So please, let's stop acting like anybody is going to "do something" about it.
Let's just move on and get past this. None of you are going to boycott anything. As soon as a game you love gets an online pass you'll be drinking the kool-aid and punching in your code.
So please, let's stop acting like anybody is going to "do something" about it.
@ace
Well i doubt the decision was naughty dog's. That's the thing, publishers decide budgets and the price of the game. So if the game is priced wrong it's the publishers fault but if it doesn't sell enough and their golden foreskins are compromised do you know who is getting downsized or at least taking a hit to their rep? The developer!!!
Well i doubt the decision was naughty dog's. That's the thing, publishers decide budgets and the price of the game. So if the game is priced wrong it's the publishers fault but if it doesn't sell enough and their golden foreskins are compromised do you know who is getting downsized or at least taking a hit to their rep? The developer!!!
@Thunder Monti
I used to exclusively game on 360. Over the past few years, I progressively switched to only PC and PS3.
Care to explain why I would have personal preference in my gaming or why that should bother anyone else?
The console war exists only for those stupid enough to be passionate about it.
I used to exclusively game on 360. Over the past few years, I progressively switched to only PC and PS3.
Care to explain why I would have personal preference in my gaming or why that should bother anyone else?
The console war exists only for those stupid enough to be passionate about it.
@EternalDeathSlayer
Possibly the most intelligent and thiught out comment after 70+ fanboy rants. Thanks for restoring my faith in the community.
Possibly the most intelligent and thiught out comment after 70+ fanboy rants. Thanks for restoring my faith in the community.
So this Thunder Monti character.
Can someone please do something about him?
This is awful form by sony, really tasteless.
Can someone please do something about him?
This is awful form by sony, really tasteless.
@DNA619
Doesn't it really defeat the purpose of having a free online mp feature on PSN if you would have to pay more for online? Technically sepaking, of course, all games w/ online passes are just$44.99 with an additional online pass--a typical $14.99 value? I'm a strong supporter of online gaming should be free (which is ironic because I prefer playing on 360 online than PS3), but moes like this doesn't really hurt the developer, but rather hurts the consumer. For instance: I'm on a budget when I game, I tend to rent titles, buy used games and buy PC games when on sale(thank's steam!). I only buy new games when I feel that they're worth it (Gears 3, King of Fighters 13, Resistance 3, Hard Reset). Doing these moves to used gamers...just loses customer support.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject, seeing as though you think Sony are making a valid move.
Doesn't it really defeat the purpose of having a free online mp feature on PSN if you would have to pay more for online? Technically sepaking, of course, all games w/ online passes are just$44.99 with an additional online pass--a typical $14.99 value? I'm a strong supporter of online gaming should be free (which is ironic because I prefer playing on 360 online than PS3), but moes like this doesn't really hurt the developer, but rather hurts the consumer. For instance: I'm on a budget when I game, I tend to rent titles, buy used games and buy PC games when on sale(thank's steam!). I only buy new games when I feel that they're worth it (Gears 3, King of Fighters 13, Resistance 3, Hard Reset). Doing these moves to used gamers...just loses customer support.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject, seeing as though you think Sony are making a valid move.
@Xeon121, EternalDeathSlayer
He pointed out one of the very things that destroy my faith in humanity. I won't be punching in any codes. I'd rather spend that $15 on a Steam sale end pick up a few games with actual longevity to their multiplayer component on the cheap.
He pointed out one of the very things that destroy my faith in humanity. I won't be punching in any codes. I'd rather spend that $15 on a Steam sale end pick up a few games with actual longevity to their multiplayer component on the cheap.
lol at the comments personally this amounts to a eh for me, does it suck in general? yes do i care? no.
also to the people saying MS would never do this... MS already charges you for online play so yeh there is that.
on one hand i think this sucks on the other i can understand that publishers are trying to cash in,
people are always boycotting shit for no reason the famous VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET line always pops up but the reality is that too many people vote to buy used games, so there you have it the result of used game sales this is what you voted for
also to the people saying MS would never do this... MS already charges you for online play so yeh there is that.
on one hand i think this sucks on the other i can understand that publishers are trying to cash in,
people are always boycotting shit for no reason the famous VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET line always pops up but the reality is that too many people vote to buy used games, so there you have it the result of used game sales this is what you voted for
In an effort to discourage this practice further I will be repeatedly and vigorously mashing my cock into my PS3 tonight.
I already typed this all out for the article related to Uncharted being set up for an online pass, but it's more relevant to online passes in general, and mainly meant to point out why the online pass phenomenon is such a problem, and how how poorly understood why it is such a problem. Thank god for copy+paste.
It could use some editing work, probably a grammar error or two somewhere in there, but fuck it. Comment box is too small, and I've already put more effort into it than I initially wanted. It's long, and yeah, I know, reading is hard for some of you. So's your mother, but she don't get many complaints for the free service.
I'm going back to drinking and shouting at the wallpaper, now. Phone's ringing. It's the jerk store, fuck them.
-----
Here's the simple solution:
Open up your own games store. Find out that in order to stock your shelves, you must purchase the games you want to put out for sale on your shelves.
Not one publisher has its own brick-and-mortar store, and yet they want to have some kind of cut of the secondhand sales. That's partly why EA developed their own version of Steam, because digital sales, by default, cannot have a secondhand market. You want to call me out on that, please explain how you can have a secondhand market without some kind of physical object, but a digital representation of a product in the form of ones and zeros that is easily copied and yet can never be "stolen." The very nature of a digital sale negates the potential for a secondhand market.
Seriously, some of you need to take a business class or three to actually understand what a fucking business model is. Because that's how it works. That's what this whole damned online pass is about, is trying to impose a business model that essentially screws the consumer in the long-term and profits the publisher (because, it is, as TheSilentProtaganist pointed out, the publishers that are pushing the online pass, not the developers. The devs are paid to create the product, they do not benefit from this unless they are the ones publishing the game(s) in question, as well).
The game stores buy the copies, that's why they push pre-orders so fucking hard. Because a game that doesn't sell is one that collects dust and is an investment that ultimately becomes a loss to that store. Pre-orders mitigate this problem by allowing the stores to have a baseline figure for how many copies they probably *should* have on order for release and then they adjust their future orders for each given copy based upon sales after the sale of pre-orders.
Used game sales work in large part to offset the costs, and what everyone's butthurt about Gamestop doing is that they've actually turned it into its own profitable business instead of a continuing loss. But it's not always a payoff, know how? I can cite the example of the local Gamestop stores in my state, Nebraska. I'd noticed in the past TWO years that they've been continuously having firesales of all the previous generation games. They were selling a lot of those games in package deals, 3 for 15 bucks, and whatever, even high-profile sellers, but ones that were 3, 4, 5 years on from their "hot time." Sadly, each one I've visited still has bins of PS2 games marked way, way down, and maybe a rack or two of Gamecube games. Many of the original Xbox games are sold off. Gamestop as a corporation is profitable, but it's the individual stores that must bear the burdens of cost in investment in product that stocks the shelves. If it does not sell at initial cost, it becomes a loss that gradually increases as it is marked down.
The developers have already been paid per their contract with their publishers, and the publishers have already been paid per the orders made by the stores.
I'm going to type that one more time, even more simply for you slow-learners.
The developers are contracted to make a game. They made a game, shipped it, and were thus paid for their work. Work-for-hire.
The publishers are then paid for the number of copies they ship to stores, per the orders stores make, based upon various factors (chiefly involving pre-order numbers, hype, marketing, and whatever else influences the decision regarding how many copies of a given game should be ordered for putting on the shelves).
The stores/outlets make their profits off the actual sales of product that is sitting on their shelves.
So why the secondhand market like what Gamestop has leveraged? Because buying those games as a consumer is expensive. Now extrapolate that statement to buying those games as a store that is intending to sell those games. But the catch is that not everyone wants to buy those games. And further, not everyone wants to buy those games AT THOSE PRICES. Thus, some kind of incentive is needed to help drive the sales of those games. That's why Gamestop also furiously pushes its trade-in deals, because they want to incentivize purchasing new games, and why their prices on used are lousy compared to some other small-time store. That small-time store caters to a smaller consumer base and cannot afford to just buy a huge number of each release, lest they completely destroy whatever meager profit margin they have to begin with. The losses scale, and the numbers get pretty big, soemtimes.
And remember, Gamestop as a corporation IS NOT THE SAME AS THE INDIVIDUAL STORE. It's called "franchising." You purchase rights to use the name, access to the marketing, and so on, in exchange for sending a cut of your earnings to the main office of the brand. It's the same in restaurants, and pretty much any kind of store or business that can operate on a franchise basis. But if the store in question is not profitable, it's done. It closes. The main corporate still gets whatever cut due them that's left, but that's before the individual store can ever account for what it makes for a profit. If a given store incurs 500 dollars in costs, and makes 1000 in sales, but is contractually obligated to send in 500 per sales period, then it makes nothing. Gamestop, as an entity, makes 500 off that store based on the franchising contract, but that store itself has not made a profit. It has only just cut even.
Which is why this is all such bullshit, that it's even happening, and even moreso that people actually fucking defend it without even understanding about the business. Guess what, you defenders?
You are tools. Study up yourself some marketing, and study up yourself some business, learn this shit, because I've just only spelled out a very basic explanation for all of it, but it amounts to the fact that you are unpaid, corporate mouthpieces because the publishers count on YOU to mindlessly defend their developers, when in fact, the developers have already been paid for their work and what you're defending is a further grab at squeezing out a dollar in the name of profitability for the publishers, who have sweet fuck all to do with actually making the products you enjoy. They just provide the financial backing for all the marketing, distribution and whatnot. Publishers are generally the middleman, making the contact between the makers of the product and the ones who physically place it in your hands.
They count on you to buy into the hype, and some of you are due some pretty hefty paychecks for all the time you put into expanding that hype and mindlessly shouting "SUPPORT THE DEVELOPERS" without realizing you're just supporting the publishers.
And I already know I've wasted a lot more of my time than is even worth it explaining to you about the real world. I fucking hate you. Goddamn toolbags, every one of you defenders.
It could use some editing work, probably a grammar error or two somewhere in there, but fuck it. Comment box is too small, and I've already put more effort into it than I initially wanted. It's long, and yeah, I know, reading is hard for some of you. So's your mother, but she don't get many complaints for the free service.
I'm going back to drinking and shouting at the wallpaper, now. Phone's ringing. It's the jerk store, fuck them.
-----
Here's the simple solution:
Open up your own games store. Find out that in order to stock your shelves, you must purchase the games you want to put out for sale on your shelves.
Not one publisher has its own brick-and-mortar store, and yet they want to have some kind of cut of the secondhand sales. That's partly why EA developed their own version of Steam, because digital sales, by default, cannot have a secondhand market. You want to call me out on that, please explain how you can have a secondhand market without some kind of physical object, but a digital representation of a product in the form of ones and zeros that is easily copied and yet can never be "stolen." The very nature of a digital sale negates the potential for a secondhand market.
Seriously, some of you need to take a business class or three to actually understand what a fucking business model is. Because that's how it works. That's what this whole damned online pass is about, is trying to impose a business model that essentially screws the consumer in the long-term and profits the publisher (because, it is, as TheSilentProtaganist pointed out, the publishers that are pushing the online pass, not the developers. The devs are paid to create the product, they do not benefit from this unless they are the ones publishing the game(s) in question, as well).
The game stores buy the copies, that's why they push pre-orders so fucking hard. Because a game that doesn't sell is one that collects dust and is an investment that ultimately becomes a loss to that store. Pre-orders mitigate this problem by allowing the stores to have a baseline figure for how many copies they probably *should* have on order for release and then they adjust their future orders for each given copy based upon sales after the sale of pre-orders.
Used game sales work in large part to offset the costs, and what everyone's butthurt about Gamestop doing is that they've actually turned it into its own profitable business instead of a continuing loss. But it's not always a payoff, know how? I can cite the example of the local Gamestop stores in my state, Nebraska. I'd noticed in the past TWO years that they've been continuously having firesales of all the previous generation games. They were selling a lot of those games in package deals, 3 for 15 bucks, and whatever, even high-profile sellers, but ones that were 3, 4, 5 years on from their "hot time." Sadly, each one I've visited still has bins of PS2 games marked way, way down, and maybe a rack or two of Gamecube games. Many of the original Xbox games are sold off. Gamestop as a corporation is profitable, but it's the individual stores that must bear the burdens of cost in investment in product that stocks the shelves. If it does not sell at initial cost, it becomes a loss that gradually increases as it is marked down.
The developers have already been paid per their contract with their publishers, and the publishers have already been paid per the orders made by the stores.
I'm going to type that one more time, even more simply for you slow-learners.
The developers are contracted to make a game. They made a game, shipped it, and were thus paid for their work. Work-for-hire.
The publishers are then paid for the number of copies they ship to stores, per the orders stores make, based upon various factors (chiefly involving pre-order numbers, hype, marketing, and whatever else influences the decision regarding how many copies of a given game should be ordered for putting on the shelves).
The stores/outlets make their profits off the actual sales of product that is sitting on their shelves.
So why the secondhand market like what Gamestop has leveraged? Because buying those games as a consumer is expensive. Now extrapolate that statement to buying those games as a store that is intending to sell those games. But the catch is that not everyone wants to buy those games. And further, not everyone wants to buy those games AT THOSE PRICES. Thus, some kind of incentive is needed to help drive the sales of those games. That's why Gamestop also furiously pushes its trade-in deals, because they want to incentivize purchasing new games, and why their prices on used are lousy compared to some other small-time store. That small-time store caters to a smaller consumer base and cannot afford to just buy a huge number of each release, lest they completely destroy whatever meager profit margin they have to begin with. The losses scale, and the numbers get pretty big, soemtimes.
And remember, Gamestop as a corporation IS NOT THE SAME AS THE INDIVIDUAL STORE. It's called "franchising." You purchase rights to use the name, access to the marketing, and so on, in exchange for sending a cut of your earnings to the main office of the brand. It's the same in restaurants, and pretty much any kind of store or business that can operate on a franchise basis. But if the store in question is not profitable, it's done. It closes. The main corporate still gets whatever cut due them that's left, but that's before the individual store can ever account for what it makes for a profit. If a given store incurs 500 dollars in costs, and makes 1000 in sales, but is contractually obligated to send in 500 per sales period, then it makes nothing. Gamestop, as an entity, makes 500 off that store based on the franchising contract, but that store itself has not made a profit. It has only just cut even.
Which is why this is all such bullshit, that it's even happening, and even moreso that people actually fucking defend it without even understanding about the business. Guess what, you defenders?
You are tools. Study up yourself some marketing, and study up yourself some business, learn this shit, because I've just only spelled out a very basic explanation for all of it, but it amounts to the fact that you are unpaid, corporate mouthpieces because the publishers count on YOU to mindlessly defend their developers, when in fact, the developers have already been paid for their work and what you're defending is a further grab at squeezing out a dollar in the name of profitability for the publishers, who have sweet fuck all to do with actually making the products you enjoy. They just provide the financial backing for all the marketing, distribution and whatnot. Publishers are generally the middleman, making the contact between the makers of the product and the ones who physically place it in your hands.
They count on you to buy into the hype, and some of you are due some pretty hefty paychecks for all the time you put into expanding that hype and mindlessly shouting "SUPPORT THE DEVELOPERS" without realizing you're just supporting the publishers.
And I already know I've wasted a lot more of my time than is even worth it explaining to you about the real world. I fucking hate you. Goddamn toolbags, every one of you defenders.
EDF sums up my feeling in one shot. Hell alot of you pay for xbox live, that's basically a universal online pass.
Besides has anyone checked used game prices, for most part there 5 bucks less at best.
Go to amazon wait for a sale ( usually takes 2-3 weeks at best) and you can get a game new for 40 bucks instead of 60.
Besides has anyone checked used game prices, for most part there 5 bucks less at best.
Go to amazon wait for a sale ( usually takes 2-3 weeks at best) and you can get a game new for 40 bucks instead of 60.
I think this could be an amazing opprotunity for MS to reduce it's prices for XBL down to $39.99 a year (or at least between a 15-20% decrease). It'd be a cool move.
@jibberwocky
I didnt mean to invalidate any point you made, believe me I am just as pissed and I believe this is the line in the sand for all future consoles. But there is no point in validating fanboy agendas
I didnt mean to invalidate any point you made, believe me I am just as pissed and I believe this is the line in the sand for all future consoles. But there is no point in validating fanboy agendas
Online passes aren't a huge deal in my opinion... When you buy new. Yeah it takes time to enter it and all that, but it's not like it's killing you... OR IS IT?!
That being said, it is a waste of time and just a stupid way to combat used sales. This is exactly like on disc DLC, but worse because you're already paying for it and having to unlock it.
Oh well. Whatever helps them sleep on their mountains of money at night.
That being said, it is a waste of time and just a stupid way to combat used sales. This is exactly like on disc DLC, but worse because you're already paying for it and having to unlock it.
Oh well. Whatever helps them sleep on their mountains of money at night.
Yeah,I really don't care. I'll continue to enjoy playing my PS3 and my (roommate's) 360 will continue to gather dust.
@Fr33kye
I honestly don't know whether or not Naughty Dog had a say in whether or not they would allow the online pass on their game. They could have been forced to do this against their will, or they could have came up with the idea themselves.
I do know that once I buy a new copy, the value of it will be devalued greatly, and why bother with that when I can just buy it used for cheaper (or rent it for even less money) be done with it, and then sell it back for about the same price I bought it.
I honestly don't know whether or not Naughty Dog had a say in whether or not they would allow the online pass on their game. They could have been forced to do this against their will, or they could have came up with the idea themselves.
I do know that once I buy a new copy, the value of it will be devalued greatly, and why bother with that when I can just buy it used for cheaper (or rent it for even less money) be done with it, and then sell it back for about the same price I bought it.
Well, this is obviously Sony's way of saying "your online gameplay has to come from somewhere", only doing it in a dickish way.
Or of course they're using that to hide the fact that the PSN thing early this year really hurt them more then they're saying. (and retroactively giving pirates a reason to continue to do their thing.)
Or of course they're using that to hide the fact that the PSN thing early this year really hurt them more then they're saying. (and retroactively giving pirates a reason to continue to do their thing.)
@Xeon121
You didn't invalidate anything man, I was just presenting my take on it. You're totally right about the fanboys.
You didn't invalidate anything man, I was just presenting my take on it. You're totally right about the fanboys.
@doewnskitty
Well thought out post, mist of the ADHD crew on here won't bother reading your full post
Well thought out post, mist of the ADHD crew on here won't bother reading your full post
@ Xeon121
At least you can represent, I'll drink to that.
A least your name isn't Wall Paper. I'd hate to be that guy right about now.
At least you can represent, I'll drink to that.
A least your name isn't Wall Paper. I'd hate to be that guy right about now.
Excellent strategy. Consumers pay more money for new games, buy less games and eventually lose interest - or - buy some new games, but mostly go retro so they can borrow, lend and sell games on (like we WANT to).
Result- Sony loses some money, blames it on the current hardware, brings out the ps3-flat and probably another psp and ignores us. Eventually a go-getting young eBay retro game seller gains enough wealth to buy Sony and sell it used.
Result- Sony loses some money, blames it on the current hardware, brings out the ps3-flat and probably another psp and ignores us. Eventually a go-getting young eBay retro game seller gains enough wealth to buy Sony and sell it used.
That's some bull shit I cannot lie. But thankfully for me it's nothing big. I hardly ever play consoles online, something about it turns me off in a big way. PC online is where it's at! But there goes my chance to at least give the MP in UC3 a try.
It might help sell new copies if they also packaged some kinda DLC in with new copies that wasn't for sale on the marketplace or network, so you could only get it with the code off a new copy. Just a costume or a few new skins is enough to get my money most of the time.
Hi guys, respectfully speaking I don't see why there must be an outrage. What Sony does here is nothing wrong. I think us gamers would rather have online passes done like Sony than an XBL pay to play multiplayer system.
I feel Microsoft fleeces gamers more than Sony. So its good that online passes contribute to Sony's funds so that they can make mre awesome games like they always do.
I feel Microsoft fleeces gamers more than Sony. So its good that online passes contribute to Sony's funds so that they can make mre awesome games like they always do.
Doesn't matter to me. Just go into Gamestop and take the online pass for the new game and put it in the used box.
Great. Lets get all the bitching out of the way now then and we won't need a news article about it every time they do one now. Get it out of your systems guys.
@Tristix
I don't understand why you're against the bitching. Yes, it's bitching, but it's better than everyone just quietly accepting something no matter how much they may disagree with it. Though I agree that some of the comments here are getting hysterical with the outrage.
I don't understand why you're against the bitching. Yes, it's bitching, but it's better than everyone just quietly accepting something no matter how much they may disagree with it. Though I agree that some of the comments here are getting hysterical with the outrage.
The easy solution is just to refuse to buy games with things you dont like or dont want to encourage.
Dude, I'm against bitching in general because it's just old. Pick nearly any article at random on the front page of this website and read a comment. There's at least a 75% chance that it involves someone bitching about something, because gamers are whiny little cuntbags lately.
I'm just glad to get this all out right now so we can at least shut the fuck up about this one thing. I'm sure we'll find something else to cry about though.
I'm just glad to get this all out right now so we can at least shut the fuck up about this one thing. I'm sure we'll find something else to cry about though.
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