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"On the other hand, it's more than a little unfair to build an entire game around intentionally vague rules, and then punish the player for not immediately understanding them."
Uh, no thanks.
Uh, no thanks.
I'm interested, but apparently the game's only resource is color? Would being colorblind be a handicap for this?
So, uh, have you seen Jim's post yet Anthony? :P
Also, what Cataract says. I don't like being screwed over because the game designer was too lazy to fully explain their game to me.
Also, what Cataract says. I don't like being screwed over because the game designer was too lazy to fully explain their game to me.
It's as if someone put a toll gate on the sewers and told you that they've thrown in some fortune cookies. It's fucking unbearable at times, but at least every so often you'll come across something bland and pretentious.
In fairness, it really is worth checking out, especially for $5. Just... Be prepared to hike up your breeches and wade into the shit.
In fairness, it really is worth checking out, especially for $5. Just... Be prepared to hike up your breeches and wade into the shit.
@AfroWalrus --- I'm color blind Orange/Yellow/Green: It's not a handicap. Each of the colors have different areas they are stored so we know what color they are.
My one question about The Void is 'Is it is as goddamn boring as Pathologic?' I loved everything about the game (crushing difficulty and poor translation aside) except for the fact that you had to spend the majority of the game walking across the bland and mostly uninteresting town and doing similarly menial tasks. I can deal with the difficulty (or edit the game files) but I need to know if it is more interesting to play than Pathologic.
My one question about The Void is 'Is it is as goddamn boring as Pathologic?' I loved everything about the game (crushing difficulty and poor translation aside) except for the fact that you had to spend the majority of the game walking across the bland and mostly uninteresting town and doing similarly menial tasks. I can deal with the difficulty (or edit the game files) but I need to know if it is more interesting to play than Pathologic.
Errrrrrrrrrrrrr...
Ehhhhhmmmmmmmmm...
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
I'll pass. I have a lot on my plate on the moment and I don't have a Direct2Drive account. I'm sure it does some interesting things, though.
Ehhhhhmmmmmmmmm...
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
I'll pass. I have a lot on my plate on the moment and I don't have a Direct2Drive account. I'm sure it does some interesting things, though.
In design terms, we call this a scenario of choice diagnosis. And if this game is what it seems to be, it exists as one gigantic failure state. There is a marked difference between challenge and cheapness. It seems like they've structured a beautiful, thought-provoking world around an unabashedly shitty game.
Kinda like GTA4, actually.
Kinda like GTA4, actually.
I made the mistake of buying Fallout 3 on Direct2Drive because the GOTY edition is half-off this weekend. So far, none of the DLC works. That's neither here nor there, though, because it's not D2D's fault. What is their fault is their little
"Comrade" client, which looks like a third-grader wrote it. Downloading anything is an exercise in frustration.
C'est la vie, though. I might as well pick up The Void, since I've already punished myself a ton.
"Comrade" client, which looks like a third-grader wrote it. Downloading anything is an exercise in frustration.
C'est la vie, though. I might as well pick up The Void, since I've already punished myself a ton.
Alternatively, buy the indie bundle.
Mmm. A game that 'screws you over and sends you back half an hour by arbitrary distinction' sounds like it is poorly designed. I'll pass.
Damn I never knew people were calling it an indie game seeing that the graphics in that game are ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. But yeah they are not a major company still they game looks beautiful and seeing that the game it's unclassifiable than it can't be classified as an indie game. :3
It's hilarious how Anthony is using all his power to get people to buy this, and no one will because of Jim's now infamous art game article.
I was intrigued by
* The cheap price
* The amount Anthony goes on about it (no offence)
* The header picture, looks really kind of cool
I was put off by
* Not available in UK
* Having to create a D2D account I'll never use because I made a mistake, see point above
* Not available at that price on Steam
Yeah, so they're terrible reasons, but I would play it. At least to try.
@Mr Pibb: Oh wow that looks really good, I liked what I saw of AYIM and wasn't Auditorium an old flash game?, also some of it's for Mac. But I already have the amazing Machinarium and I got Osmos at some point.
Wish this was cheap and in the UK, or at least had a demo or something.
* The cheap price
* The amount Anthony goes on about it (no offence)
* The header picture, looks really kind of cool
I was put off by
* Not available in UK
* Having to create a D2D account I'll never use because I made a mistake, see point above
* Not available at that price on Steam
Yeah, so they're terrible reasons, but I would play it. At least to try.
@Mr Pibb: Oh wow that looks really good, I liked what I saw of AYIM and wasn't Auditorium an old flash game?, also some of it's for Mac. But I already have the amazing Machinarium and I got Osmos at some point.
Wish this was cheap and in the UK, or at least had a demo or something.
@Mark Griffiths: the games IS available in UK. (retail & digital). I have buy it in Spain where retail version was not released. But in UK -talking in € as I remember it on this currency- The Void was about 24 then sale off until 10 €.
If the game is at 10 € in retail, who are annoyed by its cheaps price in a sale off?
Russian games are there. :) It is all I can say. (King Bounty T.L. & A.P, Men of War, The Void, OutCry (not in Steam but in Gamers Gate), Cryostasis...like in literature or movies, games are not tied up to nacionalities.
If the game is at 10 € in retail, who are annoyed by its cheaps price in a sale off?
Russian games are there. :) It is all I can say. (King Bounty T.L. & A.P, Men of War, The Void, OutCry (not in Steam but in Gamers Gate), Cryostasis...like in literature or movies, games are not tied up to nacionalities.
I would really love to give this game a go, but my laptop is far too lame to run it. :< No hauntingly beautiful/potentially aggravating game for me today.
I meant, I had buy it on Steam. I doubt a lot that you can not buy it on UK. Please, check it out! Also in play.com, amazon.com/uk, and the rest of the alternatives (too long to mention here)
In Spain games like Zeno Clash, Defense Grid The Awakening, Zuma´s Revenge, The Void, Plant vs Zombies are only available at digital version. I am 100% because I prefer retail version in those ones and had to import them. :)
@PhilWal: PC for sure, I do not know if for Mac is available also. It could (and should) be.
in Anthony Burch´s defense, I would like to tell he is not selling anything: the game is being out there SINCE 14 Dec 2009. Time enough for PC gamers to know what they are talking about.
So I guess if this game were Braid´s for Xb0x 360, the game would have suffer from hype and everybody will know about it as "a must have". (what an hipocrital aptitude, btw)
In Spain games like Zeno Clash, Defense Grid The Awakening, Zuma´s Revenge, The Void, Plant vs Zombies are only available at digital version. I am 100% because I prefer retail version in those ones and had to import them. :)
@PhilWal: PC for sure, I do not know if for Mac is available also. It could (and should) be.
in Anthony Burch´s defense, I would like to tell he is not selling anything: the game is being out there SINCE 14 Dec 2009. Time enough for PC gamers to know what they are talking about.
So I guess if this game were Braid´s for Xb0x 360, the game would have suffer from hype and everybody will know about it as "a must have". (what an hipocrital aptitude, btw)
Shadowiii:
Yes, I did. I don't disagree that The Void has some problems, but I do disagree with Jim's assessment that anything vague that requires the player to meet it head-on (rather than letting tutorial points and Big Pointy Objective Arrows help you out) is somehow bad.
The problem with the game isn't that it's vague. That's the POINT of the game (unquestionably not a case of "the developers being too lazy to explain" things), and it effects some truly interesting decision-making as a result. the problem is that it's so fucking difficult, you're discouraged from experimenting with that vagueness and trying new things out because you're constantly terrified that one wrong move will kill you and force you to restart.
Once you get into a position of relative safety, however, and you DO get to experiment a little bit, you have to answer some legitimately impactful, interesting questions: Do I help out the sisters, or the brothers? Am I going to do what I'm told, or risk a boss fight for refusing to do so? Should I focus on building a farm of color and keeping it safe, or spreading my color out in as many places as possible? Is it okay to spend color in particular areas, or have the warnings I've been given by the brothers true, and my spending color actually creates more predators? Or am I being LIED to?
The fact that a lot of these questions are unfortunately answered with "no, now shut up and die and go reload an older save" is absolutely, completely, bad design. The vagueness itself, and the questions it elicits, are not.
Yes, I did. I don't disagree that The Void has some problems, but I do disagree with Jim's assessment that anything vague that requires the player to meet it head-on (rather than letting tutorial points and Big Pointy Objective Arrows help you out) is somehow bad.
The problem with the game isn't that it's vague. That's the POINT of the game (unquestionably not a case of "the developers being too lazy to explain" things), and it effects some truly interesting decision-making as a result. the problem is that it's so fucking difficult, you're discouraged from experimenting with that vagueness and trying new things out because you're constantly terrified that one wrong move will kill you and force you to restart.
Once you get into a position of relative safety, however, and you DO get to experiment a little bit, you have to answer some legitimately impactful, interesting questions: Do I help out the sisters, or the brothers? Am I going to do what I'm told, or risk a boss fight for refusing to do so? Should I focus on building a farm of color and keeping it safe, or spreading my color out in as many places as possible? Is it okay to spend color in particular areas, or have the warnings I've been given by the brothers true, and my spending color actually creates more predators? Or am I being LIED to?
The fact that a lot of these questions are unfortunately answered with "no, now shut up and die and go reload an older save" is absolutely, completely, bad design. The vagueness itself, and the questions it elicits, are not.
@Tunchy: I'm also in Spain. I just prefer to buy things that I can buy in GBP as I have significantly less Euros and I hate transferring it every 5 seconds.
But yeah, I might pay 10 euros for it, I just want it in a format I can keep it in, in case I accidentally delete it or need to free up space in PC partition blah blah blah. At least with Steam (I didn't know it was available retail), I'd be able to go on it whenever and not lose it. I don't know.
But yeah, I might pay 10 euros for it, I just want it in a format I can keep it in, in case I accidentally delete it or need to free up space in PC partition blah blah blah. At least with Steam (I didn't know it was available retail), I'd be able to go on it whenever and not lose it. I don't know.
@Anthony
Good to know. I wasn't trying to start a fight; I am really curious in this game, but I'm wondering if I could get the same experience (sans frustration) by watching gameplay videos at youtube.
Good to know. I wasn't trying to start a fight; I am really curious in this game, but I'm wondering if I could get the same experience (sans frustration) by watching gameplay videos at youtube.
Shadowiii:
Not really -- at least, I wouldn't guess so.
If the difficulty sounds worrying, many people have simply cheated to get through the game and still had a good time answering slightly less consequential versions of those same questions the game forces on you. It's less "OH MY GOD I AM GOING TO DIE" desperate when you give yourself unlimited color, but it's also way, way less frustrating.
Not really -- at least, I wouldn't guess so.
If the difficulty sounds worrying, many people have simply cheated to get through the game and still had a good time answering slightly less consequential versions of those same questions the game forces on you. It's less "OH MY GOD I AM GOING TO DIE" desperate when you give yourself unlimited color, but it's also way, way less frustrating.
I have not bought any games from Direct2Drive, I usually go through steam. Will Direct2Drive allow me to redownload from the website and install the game on multiple machines?
You'd have to pay ME money to play this. Anthony, the more you talk about it, the less I want to play it. It sounds torturous as fuck.
Now I read your description and pace back and forth in the room eventually realizing the games poor design, and the fact that even the developers were supporting user mods to make the game easier will probably not be enough to deter me. I will go spend my five dollars posthaste!
Then I remember that I got it for $10 over the Steam Holiday Sale. God Bless Valve's stupidity. Damn me for not getting it when it was one of the daily sales for $5 less.
Then I remember that I got it for $10 over the Steam Holiday Sale. God Bless Valve's stupidity. Damn me for not getting it when it was one of the daily sales for $5 less.
i'm highly intrigued by this game, but the whole drawing glyphs with a mouse thing sounds fucking terrible. that's a pretty prevalent bit of gameplay is it not?
also.. D2D, i've never used it...
also.. D2D, i've never used it...
I would have, but unfortunately I only have a 64MB graphics card. Too bad; it did look original, at least.
Stay far away from this game unless you enjoy masochism. It requires such perfection and hind sight to complete and forces you to restart the entire game on a single mistake you might of thought inconsequential earlier on.
This is the kind of unfair, cheap difficulties that are not anywhere fun.
This is the kind of unfair, cheap difficulties that are not anywhere fun.
I treat indie games like i treat indie music, movies. If you have to go out of your way to act all high and pompous about how indie you are and that you were made by like one guy in his basement, because you need to appeal to the corporations are evil crowd of hipsters than I'll pass.
More people need to act like the creator Cave Story. Here's my game kthxbai or Yume Nikki for that matter.
I'll play art games, but I hate them out of principle just for trying to hard.
Also they breed that god damn hipster mindset that "obscure is better"
I'll be over here with my Ass effect 2 and copy of Atlas Shrugged because thats how I roll.
More people need to act like the creator Cave Story. Here's my game kthxbai or Yume Nikki for that matter.
I'll play art games, but I hate them out of principle just for trying to hard.
Also they breed that god damn hipster mindset that "obscure is better"
I'll be over here with my Ass effect 2 and copy of Atlas Shrugged because thats how I roll.
I played for a couple of hours and didn't ever really find it "crushingly difficult", but unlike some games (e.g. Myst) where I'm dropped into a mysterious world that I want to explore and am rewarded for doing so; the time that I spent with the Void was so stressful and unrewarding that I never really felt like I could relax for a second. The game kept telling me to hurry, hurry, hurry as I would watch my color (essentially your life and mana, for those who don't know) drain as I gazed at the screen. As someone who has completed a Big Boss run on MGS4, completed Bioshock on Hard with no Vita-Chambers, and completed both God of War's on their hardest respective difficulties, I'm no stranger to challenge (I am by no means saying that these are 'incredible accomplishments' or even especially difficult ones, but that I'm someone who will occasionally seek out tougher experiences for the sense of accomplishment and challenge). I get that the sense of accomplishment one receives from overcoming a harrowing experience is rewarding, but difficulty has nothing to do with why I (and I suspect many other people) don't care for the title. Neither does the game's vagueness. Again, as a fan of many MYSTerious types of games, I appreciate a certain amount of ambiguity.
The problem is that not only does the game put you into a vague and ambiguous setting, but the game is vague and ambiguous itself in how its own mechanics work. Naturally, you're going to want to take your time and figure things out. The game, however, keeps reminding you that you don't have any time. If you want to take your time and enjoy the "beautiful, atmospheric, [and] haunting" environments, then you're SOL because you've got color to farm and fast. Maybe things slow down a bit, but experience tells me that games like that tend to get harder as you go. I guess it just comes down to the word "desperation". Why would you want to play a truly "desperation-inducing" game? Why would you want to play a game where you "frequently screw yourself over and have to redo a half-hours worth of work"? Talk about a game not respecting the players valuable time. Maybe it's just a preference thing, like how some people just don't like chocolate, but it seems like the difference between a challenge and masochism. All that being the case, I just don't think this game even justifies a $5 price tag and felt the need to warn people who are tight on cash. I applaud innovation and experimentation, but this experiment seems to have failed.
@Anthony
I really am curious, sincerely, about your fascination with games like this. Is it really just that you dig the sense of accomplishment or do you enjoy the experience of desperation in games? I understand liking VVVVVV because while difficult, you don't really lose much when you make a mistake so it remains challenging without being stressful or frustrating. I just don't get games that have a sense of fairness along the lines of an old Choose Your Own Adventure novel, where an innocent mistake (like picking the red door on p. 74 instead of the blue door on p.32) results in instant death and quite a bit of backtracking. Am I not hardcore enough? (P.S. I asked this question on Podtoid but I felt like you guys misinterpreted it.)
The problem is that not only does the game put you into a vague and ambiguous setting, but the game is vague and ambiguous itself in how its own mechanics work. Naturally, you're going to want to take your time and figure things out. The game, however, keeps reminding you that you don't have any time. If you want to take your time and enjoy the "beautiful, atmospheric, [and] haunting" environments, then you're SOL because you've got color to farm and fast. Maybe things slow down a bit, but experience tells me that games like that tend to get harder as you go. I guess it just comes down to the word "desperation". Why would you want to play a truly "desperation-inducing" game? Why would you want to play a game where you "frequently screw yourself over and have to redo a half-hours worth of work"? Talk about a game not respecting the players valuable time. Maybe it's just a preference thing, like how some people just don't like chocolate, but it seems like the difference between a challenge and masochism. All that being the case, I just don't think this game even justifies a $5 price tag and felt the need to warn people who are tight on cash. I applaud innovation and experimentation, but this experiment seems to have failed.
@Anthony
I really am curious, sincerely, about your fascination with games like this. Is it really just that you dig the sense of accomplishment or do you enjoy the experience of desperation in games? I understand liking VVVVVV because while difficult, you don't really lose much when you make a mistake so it remains challenging without being stressful or frustrating. I just don't get games that have a sense of fairness along the lines of an old Choose Your Own Adventure novel, where an innocent mistake (like picking the red door on p. 74 instead of the blue door on p.32) results in instant death and quite a bit of backtracking. Am I not hardcore enough? (P.S. I asked this question on Podtoid but I felt like you guys misinterpreted it.)
Almost bought this until it suddenly occurred to me that my computer wouldn't be able to run this. I'm not a PC gamer, so I don't have a rig for that. Oh well, $5 is a good deal.
RickBlaine:
I honestly don't enjoy the actual act of being completely punished for small stuff. It's why I hate Demon's Souls. It's more the fact that, in spite of that kind of punishment, The Void's atmosphere of constant menace and terror and confusion really appealed to me: the sense of being dropped into a world with its own incredibly bizarre rules and logic and being forced to not only make sense of it, but to turn those rules to my advantage and become the strongest thing in that world.
The desperation the game makes me feel is kind of nice, and nicely contrasted against the triumph you experience once you begin to see how the game works and understand what needs to be done to survive, but it's not why I like the game (and, as mentioned in my other comments, the hard consequence actively deters you from the experimentation and wonder the game wants you to indulge in).
By that same token, I like doing Far Cry 2 permadeath runs not because of the suspense of knowing that I could die at any moment, but because knowing that you've only got one chance to beat the game forces you to play the game in a much more intentional, strategic way. The difficulty is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
I honestly don't enjoy the actual act of being completely punished for small stuff. It's why I hate Demon's Souls. It's more the fact that, in spite of that kind of punishment, The Void's atmosphere of constant menace and terror and confusion really appealed to me: the sense of being dropped into a world with its own incredibly bizarre rules and logic and being forced to not only make sense of it, but to turn those rules to my advantage and become the strongest thing in that world.
The desperation the game makes me feel is kind of nice, and nicely contrasted against the triumph you experience once you begin to see how the game works and understand what needs to be done to survive, but it's not why I like the game (and, as mentioned in my other comments, the hard consequence actively deters you from the experimentation and wonder the game wants you to indulge in).
By that same token, I like doing Far Cry 2 permadeath runs not because of the suspense of knowing that I could die at any moment, but because knowing that you've only got one chance to beat the game forces you to play the game in a much more intentional, strategic way. The difficulty is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
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