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Force multiplayer is killing single player games
Day 1, on disk, shitty DLC is killing single player games
Always online DRM is killing single player games.
Online passes are killing single player games.
Going all digital so consumers have no control over their purchases probably WILL significantly hurt single player games (unless everyone decides to create an open market with sales and customer service as good as Steam, and knowing Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony, I doubt that is possible.)
Day 1, on disk, shitty DLC is killing single player games
Always online DRM is killing single player games.
Online passes are killing single player games.
Going all digital so consumers have no control over their purchases probably WILL significantly hurt single player games (unless everyone decides to create an open market with sales and customer service as good as Steam, and knowing Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony, I doubt that is possible.)
Is that why Mass Effect failed miserably and Too Human became that hot sci-fi trilogy everyone's talking about?
They're still working on The Oustider?!
Jesus, Dave...I know you're trying to drum up interest by association, but let it go. You had a cool idea that didn't capitalise on GTAIV and Just Cause (and to an extent, Sleeping Dogs), and now we all have to pay for your misery through your column baiting bullshit.
Not that you're reading this, but hey, thanks.
Jesus, Dave...I know you're trying to drum up interest by association, but let it go. You had a cool idea that didn't capitalise on GTAIV and Just Cause (and to an extent, Sleeping Dogs), and now we all have to pay for your misery through your column baiting bullshit.
Not that you're reading this, but hey, thanks.
We should support the people that make the game, not used game stores. Always buy new when you can. Show the developer your support.
Yeah, those single player games are doing awful these days.
Yet Skyrim sold like six or seven million copies.
Deus Ex topped at like 3 million sold.
Bioshock was a success and Bioshock Infinite is highly anticipated.
And that little guy Atlus gets along just fine.
Cry me a fucking river about used games, seriously.
Yet Skyrim sold like six or seven million copies.
Deus Ex topped at like 3 million sold.
Bioshock was a success and Bioshock Infinite is highly anticipated.
And that little guy Atlus gets along just fine.
Cry me a fucking river about used games, seriously.
People over use hyperbole these days in stupid ways. There is nothing that is 'killing' anything else. Hurting? possibly. but killing, so sir.
terrible singleplayer games kill singleplayer games.
seriously how many action/adventure games(that aren't sandbox titles) that were released last year on HD platforms had:
decent length,
good storytelling,
well paced campaign,
overall quality singleplayer experience,
i can name maybe 6-7 titles like that.
seriously how many action/adventure games(that aren't sandbox titles) that were released last year on HD platforms had:
decent length,
good storytelling,
well paced campaign,
overall quality singleplayer experience,
i can name maybe 6-7 titles like that.
Many other industries have a used market,stop your whining. Next thing they'll think of is disintegrating disks that activate when you finish the game for the first time.
And once again, someone in the industry makes the claim that used games are hurting something using nothing more than conjecture as their basis.
Forget about the fact that the numbers all point in the other direction, and profoundly so. Forget about the fact that Gamestop has made the exact same percent of profit off used games today as they did when they first started recording the stat in fiscal 04. Forget even a basic understanding of equity and what it means to keep that equity within the confines of your industry.
No, Mr. Braben. The things that pop into your head and just happen to make sense up there do not trump real world facts.
Forget about the fact that the numbers all point in the other direction, and profoundly so. Forget about the fact that Gamestop has made the exact same percent of profit off used games today as they did when they first started recording the stat in fiscal 04. Forget even a basic understanding of equity and what it means to keep that equity within the confines of your industry.
No, Mr. Braben. The things that pop into your head and just happen to make sense up there do not trump real world facts.
Skyrim would have clearly sold better with a Team Deathmatch mode.
Used sales aren't killing single player games, developers are. If your game is good, and you have a solid fanbase, then they will buy it new. If your game sucks, or you immediately decide to drop the price by $20 less than a month after release, then people distrust you and wait for a used/discounted copy. Or, in the case of Capcom and Bethesda and some others, people wait for the inevitable super/ultra/GOTY/complete version.
Used sales aren't killing single player games, developers are. If your game is good, and you have a solid fanbase, then they will buy it new. If your game sucks, or you immediately decide to drop the price by $20 less than a month after release, then people distrust you and wait for a used/discounted copy. Or, in the case of Capcom and Bethesda and some others, people wait for the inevitable super/ultra/GOTY/complete version.
I think we'll see an expanded "Fight 'til Dawn" mode in Alan Wake 2. While I don't agree with what this guy is saying, it's got to seem scary for publishers. With a new Xbox on the horizon along with the higher development costs that come with new hardware, I'm a bit worried that in a couple of generations it's going to be the 'Call of Duty-box' As the spuds in publishing don't think anything else will sell.
I'm glad Nintendo seem to be staying a step behind, I imagine the lower dev costs of the older tech will look a bit more enticing for companies willing to take risks.
I'm glad Nintendo seem to be staying a step behind, I imagine the lower dev costs of the older tech will look a bit more enticing for companies willing to take risks.
As someone who does not play much multiplayer and has enjoyed many quality games this year, I call bullshit.
Break out the violins and call the waaahmbulance, another developer is whining and crying and pitching a fit over used games.
Honestly, used games have existed since the dawn of home consoles and the industry has only gotten bigger.
Honestly, used games have existed since the dawn of home consoles and the industry has only gotten bigger.
Skyrim sold better than Battlefield 3. I remember reading about it.
BF3 sold about ten million copies.
Therefore Skyrim sold more than ten million copies.
BF3 sold about ten million copies.
Therefore Skyrim sold more than ten million copies.
This guy also made the claim that the price point for new games would have dropped long ago were it not for the (dastardly!) used game market.
"This guy also made the claim that the price point for new games would have dropped long ago were it not for the (dastardly!) used game market."
He's right. That's why major publishers don't charge $60 for PC games.
Oh wait.
They do.
He's right. That's why major publishers don't charge $60 for PC games.
Oh wait.
They do.
I'm so sick of seeing anything related to people complaining about the used game industry. This "dialogue" started years ago and as soon as it did people who were pro-used games said "Every other industry has things sold second-hand" and there has yet to be a single argument from the other side that is able to refute that. The anti-used games argument was defeated minutes after it came up and people think they're original in their bitching about it still being around. Jesus christ.
I agree with some of what Jim's saying, but I don't think Alan Wake and Heavy Rain are the best examples of "huge success".
@harris
I would consider the lack of product degradation as a sound argument as to why the used game market is not comparable to other used markets. Name another product besides software that has zero product degradation then we can compare those markets. As it is currently, software simply will not degrade. The experience will be identical in every way, whether you buy new or used. As soon as we start manufacturing indestructible products, then we can use those second hand markets as a comparison. I guarantee you would hear just as much wailing from any of those manufacturers.
I would consider the lack of product degradation as a sound argument as to why the used game market is not comparable to other used markets. Name another product besides software that has zero product degradation then we can compare those markets. As it is currently, software simply will not degrade. The experience will be identical in every way, whether you buy new or used. As soon as we start manufacturing indestructible products, then we can use those second hand markets as a comparison. I guarantee you would hear just as much wailing from any of those manufacturers.
@Harris Hatsworth
Nailed it, there was never even an argument to begin with. The only real valid argument there has ever been, in my eyes, has been the "Gamestop pushes used games" defense, but even that collapses when you look at their numbers.
Doesn't anyone wonder how an expensive niche toy became a dominant force in entertainment? I'd say look no further than the strongest small ticket second hand market on the planet spending 25 years folding equity back into itself at a percentage higher than maybe even large ticket industries like housing or automobiles.
Nailed it, there was never even an argument to begin with. The only real valid argument there has ever been, in my eyes, has been the "Gamestop pushes used games" defense, but even that collapses when you look at their numbers.
Doesn't anyone wonder how an expensive niche toy became a dominant force in entertainment? I'd say look no further than the strongest small ticket second hand market on the planet spending 25 years folding equity back into itself at a percentage higher than maybe even large ticket industries like housing or automobiles.
Used house sales are harming new house sales too. The bastards .
And don't get me started on cars .. They should self destruct at 80,000 miles.
And don't get me started on cars .. They should self destruct at 80,000 miles.
I got Persona 4 used at a Gamestop a few years ago and loved it. As a direct result of that, I bought Persona 3 Portable as a new, Day 1 purchase, I plan on doing the same for Persona 5, and may even pick up Persona 4 The Ultimate even though I'm not a fighting game fan.
Yeah. Used games are totally killing the games market.
Yeah. Used games are totally killing the games market.
@dtomek
That argument is only valid if its at the base of things, and it isn't. Regardless of the nature of the product, a second hand market does not exist without a need for one. If gaming didn't need a second hand market as strong as it is, there would exist the kind of second hand market that the film and music industries currently have.
The fact that a game itself does not degrade is immaterial because it doesn't deal with the reasoning for why the second hand market exists in the first place. It only deals with why some people think it shouldn't exist. Before any reasonable argument can be made, you have to prove the very basis of your stance. If you can't prove the second hand market is harmful, then any subsequent arguments are mostly void.
That argument is only valid if its at the base of things, and it isn't. Regardless of the nature of the product, a second hand market does not exist without a need for one. If gaming didn't need a second hand market as strong as it is, there would exist the kind of second hand market that the film and music industries currently have.
The fact that a game itself does not degrade is immaterial because it doesn't deal with the reasoning for why the second hand market exists in the first place. It only deals with why some people think it shouldn't exist. Before any reasonable argument can be made, you have to prove the very basis of your stance. If you can't prove the second hand market is harmful, then any subsequent arguments are mostly void.
The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim - 10 million
Super Mario 3D Land - 5 Million Copies
Batman Arkham City - 5.5 Million Copies
L.A. Noire - 4.5 Million Copies
Deus Ex: Human Revolution - 2.5 Million Copies
Super Mario Galaxy 2 - 7 Million Copies
This is just a list of some of my favorite games I've played this year alone. I'm sure if I actually did extensive research I can find dozens and dozens of more examples of single player only games earning a ton of money.
It is laughably absurd to try and lay the blame for poor sales of ANY game on the used game market. How about blaming the nickel and diming that the industry throws at us at every opportunity? How about Online Passes that remove single player content, punishing everyone, even those who buy the game brand new and don't have their consoles connected online. How about day one DLC that tries to sell you content that was clearly part of the main game before being stripped out?
What about important story related DLC that is essential to get the "fell experience" being forced on fans? What about $15 map packs for 2 new maps and one old one? What about 4 hour games that cost $60? What about digital versions of retail games costing double the price of the same game at retail? What about games like Alan Wake costing $30 on Microsoft's "Games on Demand" service, and only $10 at the store to buy a real copy?
What about selling cheat codes as DLC? What about pre-order bonuses that guarantee you won't get the full experience even before you pick up your copy? What about servers for year old games getting shut off? What about manuals being pulled from all games, and plastic being ripped out of boxes to save money and cheapen the cases?
What about publishers re-releasing games with a few extras and charging full price for them instead of selling it as cheap DLC? What about the consumer, who has to deal with being ripped off, manipulated, lied to, stolen from, and tricked every time they just want to play a game? Go cry to your fucking mama. The used games business has done nothing to hurt the industry.
If you don't fucking like it, stop making games and quit your bitching. It is us, the consumers, who have to put up with YOUR bullshit. Not the other way around. So act like a fucking man and shut the fuck up.
Super Mario 3D Land - 5 Million Copies
Batman Arkham City - 5.5 Million Copies
L.A. Noire - 4.5 Million Copies
Deus Ex: Human Revolution - 2.5 Million Copies
Super Mario Galaxy 2 - 7 Million Copies
This is just a list of some of my favorite games I've played this year alone. I'm sure if I actually did extensive research I can find dozens and dozens of more examples of single player only games earning a ton of money.
It is laughably absurd to try and lay the blame for poor sales of ANY game on the used game market. How about blaming the nickel and diming that the industry throws at us at every opportunity? How about Online Passes that remove single player content, punishing everyone, even those who buy the game brand new and don't have their consoles connected online. How about day one DLC that tries to sell you content that was clearly part of the main game before being stripped out?
What about important story related DLC that is essential to get the "fell experience" being forced on fans? What about $15 map packs for 2 new maps and one old one? What about 4 hour games that cost $60? What about digital versions of retail games costing double the price of the same game at retail? What about games like Alan Wake costing $30 on Microsoft's "Games on Demand" service, and only $10 at the store to buy a real copy?
What about selling cheat codes as DLC? What about pre-order bonuses that guarantee you won't get the full experience even before you pick up your copy? What about servers for year old games getting shut off? What about manuals being pulled from all games, and plastic being ripped out of boxes to save money and cheapen the cases?
What about publishers re-releasing games with a few extras and charging full price for them instead of selling it as cheap DLC? What about the consumer, who has to deal with being ripped off, manipulated, lied to, stolen from, and tricked every time they just want to play a game? Go cry to your fucking mama. The used games business has done nothing to hurt the industry.
If you don't fucking like it, stop making games and quit your bitching. It is us, the consumers, who have to put up with YOUR bullshit. Not the other way around. So act like a fucking man and shut the fuck up.
Used games sell so well because publishers don't realize that not every game needs to be priced at a premium of $60. I can name a lot of games that i've been interested in but not enough to pay close to $70 for it. Hell I bought shadows of the damned used a month after it came out on ebay. If it came new for $39.99 I wouldn't think twice about buying it new. This is also the reason why most people are reluctant to take chances when purchasing videogames unless its something they are familiar with ie call of duty.
There are real concerns about the used game industry. That said, I don't see any reason at all to link it directly to 'single-player' games. I think the broad impact of the used game market is to hurt, a little, pretty much the entire disc-based console market. What it likely leads to is less 'risky investment' generally, but I see no reason why that would be exclusively targeted at single player games.
I always try to buy new when I came, but sometimes it's just not possible. And I think developers don't realize that used games (from major chains anyway) aren't that much cheaper than new. If someone turned in Mass Effect 3 two days after playing it, for example, GameStop would only be selling it for $5 less. Personally, I'd rather give five more dollars to the publishers than just buy used.
Hitting the entire used market is a bad thing, especially when it encompasses more than just last years games.
Hitting the entire used market is a bad thing, especially when it encompasses more than just last years games.
@Dtomek: The value of the experience does downgrade, as well as the technology used to create the experience at the time. Halo:CE is not worth the $50 it cost when it released just because the disc still works.
This doesn't even count that discs can get ruined fairly easy.
This doesn't even count that discs can get ruined fairly easy.
Personally I have to admit that I often wait on single player games and buy them used or when they go on sale. They're just not as time sensitive as multiplayer games where a first day purchase means the opportunity to more easily rank up in online play and not be the n00b with the crappy gun playing against Generals 6 months down the line.
... there might be a small grain of truth in what he says.
... there might be a small grain of truth in what he says.
"Nailed it, there was never even an argument to begin with. The only real valid argument there has ever been, in my eyes, has been the "Gamestop pushes used games" defense, but even that collapses when you look at their numbers. "
Uhh what? The standard numbers show that used games make up around 10% of the total market. I'm sorry, but 10% is a real -thing-.
I already know your response. "But but but used games -fuel- new game sales. Without them, the market and the economy and the world would collapse!!!"
Except that is utter bullshit. For a group arguing that there needs to be more "evidence" that used games are doing bad, it's amazing how little evidence you need to claim that the used game market fuels new sales.
Here's a question for those that think they fuel new game sales: why is Steam doing so well? Steam does away with used games entirely. Shouldn't we see a big jump in prices and total failure of the platform?
The fact of the matter is that video game prices change -all the God damn time-. Sure, disc-based console games -usually- start around 60, but that shit drops, often within a week. I bought Deux Ex: HR for 40 bucks a week after it was released. I bought Marvel vs. Capcom 3 (unfortunately) for 45 bucks a few days after release. And I got some bonus posters or something. I bought FF 13 (again, unfortunately) for around 20 dollars a few months after release. PRICES CHANGE ALL THE GOD DAMN TIME!
Used games do -not- fuel new game sales because publishers and retailers -adjust prices to sell to units.- Even if used games led to a few less day-one sales, the publisher/retailer/etc. would just drop prices or put up a sale that much more quickly and with that much more of a drop in price.
To summarize:
1. 10% of the market is fucking huge
2. Used games do not fuel new game sales
Therefore
Used games hurt the video game market and prevent investment on riskier projects. You know. Innovative projects. New IPs. Anything that isn't a gritty FPS aimed at 14 year olds.
Sorry, this all has nothing to do with the article really, as I don't think this affects single player more than anything else. However, I was shocked by the sheer ignorance on display.
Uhh what? The standard numbers show that used games make up around 10% of the total market. I'm sorry, but 10% is a real -thing-.
I already know your response. "But but but used games -fuel- new game sales. Without them, the market and the economy and the world would collapse!!!"
Except that is utter bullshit. For a group arguing that there needs to be more "evidence" that used games are doing bad, it's amazing how little evidence you need to claim that the used game market fuels new sales.
Here's a question for those that think they fuel new game sales: why is Steam doing so well? Steam does away with used games entirely. Shouldn't we see a big jump in prices and total failure of the platform?
The fact of the matter is that video game prices change -all the God damn time-. Sure, disc-based console games -usually- start around 60, but that shit drops, often within a week. I bought Deux Ex: HR for 40 bucks a week after it was released. I bought Marvel vs. Capcom 3 (unfortunately) for 45 bucks a few days after release. And I got some bonus posters or something. I bought FF 13 (again, unfortunately) for around 20 dollars a few months after release. PRICES CHANGE ALL THE GOD DAMN TIME!
Used games do -not- fuel new game sales because publishers and retailers -adjust prices to sell to units.- Even if used games led to a few less day-one sales, the publisher/retailer/etc. would just drop prices or put up a sale that much more quickly and with that much more of a drop in price.
To summarize:
1. 10% of the market is fucking huge
2. Used games do not fuel new game sales
Therefore
Used games hurt the video game market and prevent investment on riskier projects. You know. Innovative projects. New IPs. Anything that isn't a gritty FPS aimed at 14 year olds.
Sorry, this all has nothing to do with the article really, as I don't think this affects single player more than anything else. However, I was shocked by the sheer ignorance on display.
That's right. I keep forgetting how the Elder Scrolls Series is continuously bankrupting Bethesda over and over again. Poor Bethesda 8)
i dont blame publishers, i dont blame developers, i dont blame used sales. i blame the internet. the internet has ruined video games.
now with connected consoles, you have day 1 patches, dlc, mad bugs, everything has tacked on online. even when it doesnt need it(KoA:R) and dont even get me started on the video game jumping on the "social media" band wagon. with games that used facebook interaction inside the game itself. so stupid. no one cares if you just picked up an ammo clip. or won a race. only you do.
but i do have to give it to EA with the autotlog type stuff. it puts the social INTO the game itself.
now with connected consoles, you have day 1 patches, dlc, mad bugs, everything has tacked on online. even when it doesnt need it(KoA:R) and dont even get me started on the video game jumping on the "social media" band wagon. with games that used facebook interaction inside the game itself. so stupid. no one cares if you just picked up an ammo clip. or won a race. only you do.
but i do have to give it to EA with the autotlog type stuff. it puts the social INTO the game itself.
@Kilias2: For myself, and many others, the only reason I buy new games is because of the credit I get from trading in my old games. Otherwise, I'd just buy the game off of some dude from craigslist a few months down the line.
Used games do help new sales, and if I didn't have the option, I'd wait or find a hobby that didn't have a fucktarded business model like the games industry does.
Used games do help new sales, and if I didn't have the option, I'd wait or find a hobby that didn't have a fucktarded business model like the games industry does.
I don't know about you guys, but as a rule I never rent RPGS. I ALWAYS buy them.
- Games with multiple pathes, or different endings and things like that can easily make a game worth keeping.
- Exciting DLC can make you want to keep a game too. These are all great ideas for making the single player game a more worthy item to hold on to.
- Also, with the addition of achievements, that helps as well, especially if there are achievements for beating the game with a new game + or harder difficulties, or by going a different path during your playthrough.
Make your single player games have some replay value and people will not sell them, at least not as many. Seriously.
- Games with multiple pathes, or different endings and things like that can easily make a game worth keeping.
- Exciting DLC can make you want to keep a game too. These are all great ideas for making the single player game a more worthy item to hold on to.
- Also, with the addition of achievements, that helps as well, especially if there are achievements for beating the game with a new game + or harder difficulties, or by going a different path during your playthrough.
Make your single player games have some replay value and people will not sell them, at least not as many. Seriously.
He should have used Kickstarter. Although it might be a bit tricky to get donations now that he has attacked the consumers' buying habits.
I almost finished Skyrim a month or so ago but got sidetracked with other games, but I am going back to finish it.. You know what I am doing then? I am going to play it over as a different character and play it differently. I am waiting until some DLC comes out first though and it will be so awesome..
This is how a single player game done well can not only sell well, but will also stay in my collection forever.
This is how a single player game done well can not only sell well, but will also stay in my collection forever.
If this is how he feels, he should just go the digital download route. Some of my favorite games this generation have been the digital only titles that are not afraid to try something different, many of which would probably not seen the light of day were it not for digital distribution.
As a matter of fact, I'm downloading Stacking right now, it's 50% off on XBL this week as is Costume Quest!!! Double Fine, take my money!!!
As a matter of fact, I'm downloading Stacking right now, it's 50% off on XBL this week as is Costume Quest!!! Double Fine, take my money!!!
@Killas2 - Look at MuddBstrd's post.
I can't count the number of times I've become a Day One New buyer because of the used games market. It would be too many times to count but let's see...
Deus Ex
Bioshock
The Elder Scrolls III
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
Mass Effect
Resident Evil
Castlevania SOTN
Metal Gear Solid
I could keep going. I started out with all of these franchises used and now I buy many of them brand new. Interesting how that works. When I lent games out to friends or recommended a particular used game to a customer, they ended up buying the next installment of that series or the work by that developer new!
Its just terrible how the used market is destroying gaming!
I can't count the number of times I've become a Day One New buyer because of the used games market. It would be too many times to count but let's see...
Deus Ex
Bioshock
The Elder Scrolls III
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
Mass Effect
Resident Evil
Castlevania SOTN
Metal Gear Solid
I could keep going. I started out with all of these franchises used and now I buy many of them brand new. Interesting how that works. When I lent games out to friends or recommended a particular used game to a customer, they ended up buying the next installment of that series or the work by that developer new!
Its just terrible how the used market is destroying gaming!
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