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Community Discussion: Blog by Josh Tolentino | Don't Blame The Genre, Blame The Game: Why JRPGs Don't Intrinsically SuckDestructoid
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When he's not posting about obscure Japanese games, Josh helps run Destructoid's Japanophile sister site, Japanator.com. Go there for the best in anime, manga, and cool news from Glorious Nippon.
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Today Anthony Burch highlighted an indie game, The Linear RPG to illustrate, basically speaking, why the JRPG subgenre totally sucks.

I found the argument profoundly similar to the one voiced in an issue of The Escapist, entitled "The Battleship Final Fantasy, written by Ray Huling. Many of my points are actually drawn from my reaction to that article, though I will attempt to distill them further here, the better to apply them to JRPGs in general, and to addressing several specific comments made by Anthony in his article and in the comment thread below it. Please read this at your own discretion.

I argue that JRPGs have a specific appeal, and that The Linear RPG represents a gross misinterpretation of such. JRPGs may be flawed, in need of diversity in both formula and substance, but they deserve to exist, and shouldn't be treated as obsolete antiques, long passed by. Peoples' love of JRPGs is not misplaced and born of a weird, inane refusal to acknowledge fact. JRPGs have a place in this world.



I agree with some of the points raised, particularly with regard to the potential stagnation of the formula and the growing need for diversity at the fundamental level. Some of my examples are in fact JRPGs that buck the trend. My own perspective is also limited. Being a PS3 owner, I have not been able to play many recently released JRPGs. Perhaps this was a blessing in disguise?

Anthony's assertions, and the satirical commentary of The Linear RPG, serve to show how utterly intolerable JRPGs are. JRPGs use the temptation of leveling up to force players to endure terrible storytelling and bad, mindless grinding gameplay. Why ("in God's name why?") do JRPGs even exist in this age of evolved storytelling?

JRPGs want you to watch cutscenes. Yes, I went there. Gameplay is is largely disconnected from the story. Perhaps the best (worst?) example of this would be Xenosaga Episode I: Der Wille zur Macht. Players watched cutscenes that extended to and past the half-hour mark. Interviews with Monolith Soft staff openly stated that this separation was part of their intention, that the system to be mastered be distinct from the story to be told.

To Anthony, this is a big negative. Gameplay should be fully integrated with storytelling. I agree, but only in part. Some games need it, others do well enough without this level of integration. I believe there is ample room for both philosophies, especially considering the appeal of JRPGs. Those interviews with Monolith Soft are the key, for the core appeal of the JRPG is twofold: to master a system (gameplay), and to experience a story (cutscene). One plays the game, then views a cutscene, then plays the game again.



As we constantly discuss whenever we get into the state of game reviews, the game experience and the final value judgment ultimately falls to the player to decide. In my estimation and experience, this separation of "gameplay" from "story" is not necessarily a bad point or a sign of terrible design. This separation is even more widespread in tactical RPGs, like Final Fantasy Tactics.

Gameplay and story, as connected to the core appeal (mastering a system and watching a cutscene), complement each other. A well-produced, involving cutscene is a reward for mastering a system, and often requires that the player do so on some level to obtain that reward. Ideally, that mastery is enjoyable in and of itself, solidifying the appeal, paying off in enjoyment.

Come to think of it, isn't that how all games work out? In a perfect world, everything would mesh well and provide in beautiful harmony, but more often than not we pick something we like about a game and then roll with it, eventually deciding if that's worth it. Anthony and Girlflash clearly believe that it is not, but that judgment, as stated, falls to the individual player.

But I digress, let's keep going with JRPGs. JRPGs tend to demand success on both fronts to be considered good. This kind of goal tends to lead to more failures than successes, but that might be said of any game. There are a enough of bad action games, bad shooters, and bad western RPGs (WRPGs) to prove that.

Complex mechanics may be just as good as a twisted story. I had great fun constructing elaborate gambits to "program" my party's maneuvers in Final Fantasy XII. And when it got down to showing me well-produced cutscenes, written in florid English, that narrated events that determined the fate of two kingdoms, I chuckled and thought to myself, "Yeah, you dickheads, if it wasn't for my gambits you wouldn't be there." I may have been no more than a choreographer in this game, but I'll be damned if I didn't do it well.

All those complex gambits would have been for naught, it's argued, since I could have simply ground away, able to surmount the challenge by virtue of levels and persistence, thus abusing the mechanics and breaking them. That may be true, but I didn't do that. I constructed complicated gambits. I didn't need to grind. I mastered the system.

I could have done the same in, say, Bioshock (most people seem to insist that it's an RPG, though I think it's a shooter). I could have simply run the entire game with the wrench, smacking everything until I died, jumping out the Vita-Chamber, alive and well, and doing the same, but I didn't. I carefully arranged my Plasmids and enhanced my weapons, and settled for stunning everything with Electro-Bolt or Winter Blast, then running up and beating them with my wrench or shooting them in the head. System mastery.



Do JRPGs have no intrinsic appeal, based on their basic components, as is argued in The Linear RPG? Why bother to master a complex system when the reward is a bad cutscene? As I mentioned above, sometimes mastering a complex system is its own reward. Anthony admitted himself that leveling up was kind of fun, and that he played for longer than it took for the point to be made. Isn't the appeal of getting more of a good thing intrinsic?

Many - perhaps most - JRPGs have poorly written (or at least poorly edited) stories. So do many action games, FPS games, and flight sims. The stories may not matter as much in the latter, but the excitement of playing makes up for that. If mastering the system isn't enough to make up for the bad story, it's a bad game, period. For that matter, few game stories rise beyond the level of a licensed D&D novel. They can take up a lot of time to tell you these simple stories, compared to Firefly or The Wire, but neither of those TV shows have a systems I can master.

I think the complexity lies in that JRPGs take so long to make their appeal apparent. Some hate that JRPGs take a while to make their appeal apparent, in part because of that separation between gameplay and story. It took Anthony roughly three hours to gain full control of the game's systems in Persona 4. The preamble kept him from beginning to master the system.

But there it comes down to preference. Personally, I found those three hours refreshing. It introduced me to the characters, started to get me interested in what was happening around me, and motivated me to get started mastering the system (boy, I say that a lot). Suikoden V has the longest prologue period in gaming, with roughly TEN hours before you get to recruiting party members. But those ten hours built up a complex story that showed me the political cracks and fractures that threatened to split my kingdom apart, and motivated me to get to sealing those fissures, even if I did dislike random battles. That long setup paid off big-time, when the plot started snowballing into a grand series of maneuvers punctuated by epic field battles and one-on-one duels, never letting up the pace and surprising at every turn.

Even the appeal of a system becomes subject to preference and tolerance. Once he did learn the ins and outs of Persona 4's system, Anthony found he could get by recycling the same strategies to beat the same enemies. He believed that there was not enough enemy variation to keep him on his toes.

Not so, I thought. Even palette-swapped enemies in differing dungeons required altered strategies to beat. A Lying Basalt (I'm making up names here) on the first level of the Castle dungeon could be beaten by casting Zio to knock it down (bypassing its stronger resistances) and triggering an all-out attack. But the palette-swapped Autonomic Basalt on the seventh level of the Steamy Bathhouse would have to be beaten in a different manner, since it was easily knocked down, but took practically no damage from the all-out attack, forcing me to use area-effect spells to knock them down and then attacking them manually with physical skills to keep them from using their powerful counterattacks.

What happened if several Autonomic Basalts appeared mixed with Avenger Knights, who repelled everything that the Basalts were weak to? This was more than enough to keep my interest, especially considering that constantly using spells to attack weaknesses used up SP, which I might need for a future battle. Should I waste 10 SP in to use Maragi against a group of fire-weak enemies, or conserve it by simply attacking them, knowing that I risked my health?

I've just wasted 1500 words and a dozen paragraphs to tell you this: The Linear RPG is a misinterpretation. It forgets that there's a system that can be mastered, an essential part of making JRPGs work. The system can be subverted and abused, but that can happen to any game. A JRPG that fails not just a bad JRPG, it's a bad game. We can't blame a genre or its conventions for poor execution of such. There is no such thing as a design convention that is bad, but there are many instances where design conventions are misused, incompetently applied, or left aside. That can happen in any genre. We might need something new, but we needn't get rid of the old.




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Ya'y, yay! Preach it, preach it! Erm... yeah. I likes me some RPG.
Thank you for doing this, you've actually inspired me to write my own rebuttal based on my personal points that I feel need stating in this defense of JRPGs.
Good points made, Unangbangkay. Great article.

Also, Anthony is sick of the 'chosen one' plots. He must absolutely hate Suikoden, since it has 120 of the bastards... O_o
Aww, Poor Kanji got cut off ;)

Very nicely done! JRPGs are still my favorite genre, and am glad to see such an eloquent and impassioned defense of them made :)
I don't think JRPGs intrinsically suck by any standard, and if they did that standard would not be the linearity or disconnect between gameplay and story. Where JRPGs have often failed for me is in the story. In a genre where the developer wants me to accept the separation and watch them flesh out characters in non-interactive scenes stretching into the hours, I in turn expect the developer to provide a meaningful and interesting story. Originality doesn't even enter into it. Dragon Quest presents some of the least original tales in the genre yet tells the masterfully enough that they are interesting. Final Fantasy IX is a cliche mess of JRPG paradigms that is still enjoyable because of the excellent writing and narrative structure.

I realize I'm not really discussing your point (for, against or otherwise) so I'll leave it at that. One addition: the story in Final Fantasy XII is great, you silly twit.
I still think most of them suck, and I like quite a few. It's stagnating as a genre and that irritates me because there are games like Chrono Trigger that made real improvements to the formula, which then were never really imitated. Imitation is good, it makes for progress. It's no good having a game full of good gameplay ideas and then having nobody use them in their future games.

Anyway, as for cutscenes, there's a place for them, sure, but I think it comes from an old, old ideal where people wanted their games to be like movies. That's okay, I guess, but I want my games to be games and can respect a modern game so much more when it is doing what it does best, rather than interrupting me at points along the way to give me a movie.
Like I said in the post, there are tons of games that no one bothers to highlight when talking about "bad" JRPGS.Ever played Xenogears people? Legend of Legaia? Legend of Dragoon? Tales of Vesperia? Same JRPG off-the-wall characters, some whacky story; awesome fighting system for non-JRPgers to enjoy.

They get a bad rap; I absolutely love this post. Thank you!
You know you said 'Anthony' 13 times during the course of this article. I kind of got the feeling that this was more a piece on Anthony being wrong than anything else..

Also in regards to the Persona 4 situation, ultimately I'd argue you're using the same strategy. If you call 'Using Zio' a strategy then yes, you would require another strategy to defeat them like 'Using Agi', but at the same time the ultimate theme seems to be one of every battle exploting your enemies weakness. It might be that you have to use a different element, or you have to play away from their strengths like focussing on magic rather than physical attacks. In other words really there is only really one strategy to the fights; Use everything against an enemy to find its weaknesses/strengths, then from then on scan them and knock them down with that. I've only played for 40 hours, but I've never fought a boss or enemy that required a strategy beyond 'Attack weaknesses/defend against strengths'.

Especially when those weaknesses/strengths can only be one of seven things. It can get slightly more complicated with varying enemy types in the same battle, but this is still just as repetitive as other enounters except this time you use single-target attack spells to exploit weaknesses one by one earning you new turns after each. Or just smashing them with an all-target and taking the repelled damage. There is some strategy, but it's awfully simple.
You know you said 'Anthony' 13 times during the course of this article....I've only played for 40 hours, but I've never fought a boss or enemy that required a strategy beyond 'Attack weaknesses/defend against strengths'.

Indeed, I did, because it is why I think Anthony (and The Linear RPG are wrong and misunderstand why JRPGs can be fun. This is a direct reaction to his post, as my reaction to Ray Huling's "The Battleship Final Fantasy is a direct address to that piece. That my argument is one that is in favor of the JRPG design philosophy is irrelevant.

In any case, I'll be doing a bit of trimming.

As for "Attacking Strengths/Defending Weaknesses", did you read what you just wrote? isn't that what every single conflict in every game comes down to? Head shots, VATS, flanking, defending your artillery, closing range, the Knight piece only being able to move in "L"-patterns, attack-dodge, the QTE, recoil management, circle-strafing, rocket jumps, jumping on the head, the racing line, the "L" block, rock v. paper v. scissors, the revenge meter, presidential debates, etc. I could go on, and on, and, on.

To talk Persona 4 specifically, that the strategy tends to come down to a 1-out-of-7 choice is fine. The Autonomic Basalts I mentioned take little to no damage from my follow-up attacks, even if they were easily knocked down. As a result I had to knock them down, but waste turns attacking them individually, which kept me from ending a battle in one stroke. If they had been mixed with Daring Gigases or Dancing Hands, who often had powerful counterattacks and no particular weaknesses, taking a long time posed particular risk. And using up spells to attack every enemy in a group often whittled down my SP, which required me to use up resources restoring it in anticipation of the next battle. That's why I believe boiling down systems in the way that was done does the subgenre a disservice, and is ultimately a failure to understand their appeal.
What Xandersan said. I'm a Persona fan, but it always comes to "there's a guy, hit him with that, win battle and move on". The final fight of Persona 4 consisted of everyone using their best moves while I healed/debilitated. That's as linear of a battle as you can get.

It's not that P4 wasn't enjoyable (FUCK THAT 2HOUR INTRO RIGHT IN THE ASSHOLE), it's just that it's not all that different from other JRPGs. Strange boy comes to a town and has the power to go into TVs, conveniently so that he can save people and the world. On the way he meets (a) girl(s) and finds true love while learning about friendship. Then he fights a deity that caused all of the bad shit in the game. Roll credits.
I guess what I meant to say (without actually typing it out. Woops!) is that, no, jRPG's aren't intrinsically bad, but then why are so many of them linear, trite, and cliche?

Someday, a Japanese developer will make a unique, compelling RPG. Until then, they're just gonna copypaste old formulas from years past.
"I guess what I meant to say (without actually typing it out. Woops!) is that, no, jRPG's aren't intrinsically bad, but then why are so many of them linear, trite, and cliche?"

That's not quite fair either, since you're only taking Persona 4 at face value. I'd suggest you read Leigh Alexander's excellent piece on Kotaku to help with that, or my own piece about how Persona 3 deftly applies "Fool's Journey" concept to its plotline.

Yes, individual battle strategies for individual enemies are relatively simple once a given enemy is analyzed (the support characters no longer do it for you in P4), but when taken as a whole, exploring the TV dungeons becomes a trial of resource management (do you have enough SP to continue the run?), time management (maybe I should have studied that day, I have finals coming up), and even quest management (should I revisit Kanji's dungeon, since I need 10 rough hides to finish that guy's quest, or get to visiting that other dungeon instead?).

JRPGs tend demand to be taken as a whole, which leads to more failures than successes when it comes to appealing to a player as quickly as possible, and getting the player to decide what it is he likes about the game (the better for that strength to make up for the weaknesses). Final Fantasy games try to make up for that delay between preamble and payoff with huge graphical spectacles and cutscenes.

It comes down to tolerance. Are you satisfied enough by a game/girlfriend/job's strengths that you're willing to put up with its weaknesses?
Very nice read - your central point, as I see it (the weaknesses "intrinsic" to JRPGs really aren't intrinsic at all), is what most bears repeating, seeing as, when you get down to it, there is really no such thing as "intrinsic weaknesses" in any genre, just a combination of 1) overall deftness of execution on the part of the developers, and 2) personal preferences, "legitimate" and not, on the part of the players. If more people would acknowledge this, a lot of the waste-of-time "genre xyz sucks, and everyone who plays it is an idiot" excuses for "debates" would cease to pop up, and we could get back to focusing on more substantive topics that can help all types of games (and gamers) improve the overall landscape.
Hmm, I suppose talking about strengths/weaknesses was kind of simplistic of me. Maybe I don't really mean to criticise that entire idea because as you rightly point out it's pretty much fundamental behind any game with conflict. I think what I more mean is that it's a rather limited or straight-forward handling of that idea. Like the order of turns in battle is incredibly linear, aside from getting or losing extra turns there's no other factors which determine frequency of attack opportunities.

What I mean is that whilst most conflicts revolve around strengths and weaknesses, Persona 4 REALLY exaggerates that fact. Rather than say Bahamut's Lagoon where certain unit types are more effective against others, and terrain effects that effectiveness and the like. It's more about an attack being 'Repelled, Absorbed, Nullified, Partly blocked, Taken fully or extra effective (EXTRA TURN!)'. Which I guess sounds like a lot, but at the same time the context of the conflict doesn't seem to change. An encounter with Basalts is only affected by what enemies are there with it. There's very little else if anything to alter the encounter compared to even say 'Lucifers Call' (Nocturne for NA gamers), where at least the moon would affect monster behaviour.

I guess that's what I mean. Honestly I haven't had much time to put my thoughts into something coherent. Also I wanted to make a reference to Bahamut's Lagoon. Because that was fantastic.
I could go on for a few pages, but it's a lot easier to say I agree with everything Unangbangkay has said.
@Xandersan

It's straightforward at the base level, sure, but other factors outside the battle at that. It's not just Strong/Weak either. Many enemies repel elements, others absorb them, still others just nullify them. Situations and attack opportunities are also determined by your party composition, persona mixture, persona strength. Enemies buff and debuff, and gain their own attack opportunities when they hit YOUR weaknesses.

The moon affected enemies in Persona 3, too. Crawling Tartarus on a full-moon night raised more "out-of-level" enemies, allowed unique enemies to appear, and enabled your party to crawl in spite of their condition. Crawling dungeons on rainy days in P4 did the same (though there is no more condition mechanic), but also increased the drop rate of rare materials and items.

I'm not going to lie and say Bahamut's Lagoon and Persona 4 are equally complex, as I haven't played the former. I'm going to be stupid either and say that all JRPGs are equally good or bad and that it comes down to how much you like or dislike a given game's mechanics + story mixture. It may simply be that Bahamut's Lagoon is better than Persona 4 (NEVER!). My point is that it's the result that matters, not the formula. It's not that JRPGs are bad, it's that there are a lot of bad JRPGs, just as there are a lot of bad shooters, shmups, RTSs, flight sims, MMOs, WRPGs, brawlers, minigame compilations, hack-n-slashers. It's about execution.

Don't blame the genre, blame the game.
Don't blame the genre, blame the game.

Amen.
I'm enjoying Persona 3 currently, and while the battle strategy isn't the deepest (obviously, since I'm actually making progress in the game) it is there and has bitten me in the ass when I fucked up. I do agree with unangbangkay though that there are factors external to individual battles that make up the whole of strategy you use in the game.

I must say I haven't played many JRPGs I haven't liked, probably because I haven't played nearly as many as someone who is a professed junkie for them. The few I do play tend to have gotten quite a bit of acclaim, Mega Man X Command Mission excluded (but I still enjoyed that one.)
Thanks for writing this. It makes my heart happy.

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