Interesting read, though you clearly hate BioWare in the most unbiased way ever. You are a troll, flamebaiter and everything you think is wrong.
...nah, I'm just messin' withya! Welcome to Destructoid!
Seriously interesting and well thought out read.
I've been following some of the pre-release stuff (In particular Giant Bomb and Kotaku's Podcasts with ME2/Bioware crew), and I don't get the sense that the choice will be so binary as Grind = Survival. If we can take BioWare's most recent work, Dragon Age, as an indicator of the studio's currnet approach to dark and difficult decisions, I imagine that there will be an element of polarization to the decisions and actions.
Considering at least one thing from Dragon Age, there was a party member that was (albeit in a mission based/undynamic manner) averse to any mission that did not seem to add to the final goal. In one instance in particular, if the player was not prepared with the proper pursuasion levels, the player could choose to rebel violently against the player. Its similar, I think, to Wrex, but at the same time, wholly avoidable. If he isn't a favorite character or present on that mission, the issue barely comes up.
So in effect, even if you have a valuable/respected/favorite party memeber, and even with a good level of trust, they may very well be inherently opposed to your current agenda. That gives me alot of hope for Mass Effect 2's execution of a similar idea. Maybe your star party member will become extremely irritated with your perfectionist grinding and decide to leave the party?
Separately, from the interviews I listened to, it seems like a combination of decisions can lead to death. And, if its anything like the no win situations in Dragon Age, a presented decision may be as such because of decisions you've made, like, 12 hard decisions ago! I personally get the sense (or have the naive hope?) that there won't be a clear and obvious path to survival. The decisions will have too much gravity to allow for a clear understanding of what variables will be in place. Not to say you won't be able to game it at all, but that the chance for narrative surprise will be palpable.
Lets see who's right next month! :D
...nah, I'm just messin' withya! Welcome to Destructoid!
Seriously interesting and well thought out read.
I've been following some of the pre-release stuff (In particular Giant Bomb and Kotaku's Podcasts with ME2/Bioware crew), and I don't get the sense that the choice will be so binary as Grind = Survival. If we can take BioWare's most recent work, Dragon Age, as an indicator of the studio's currnet approach to dark and difficult decisions, I imagine that there will be an element of polarization to the decisions and actions.
Considering at least one thing from Dragon Age, there was a party member that was (albeit in a mission based/undynamic manner) averse to any mission that did not seem to add to the final goal. In one instance in particular, if the player was not prepared with the proper pursuasion levels, the player could choose to rebel violently against the player. Its similar, I think, to Wrex, but at the same time, wholly avoidable. If he isn't a favorite character or present on that mission, the issue barely comes up.
So in effect, even if you have a valuable/respected/favorite party memeber, and even with a good level of trust, they may very well be inherently opposed to your current agenda. That gives me alot of hope for Mass Effect 2's execution of a similar idea. Maybe your star party member will become extremely irritated with your perfectionist grinding and decide to leave the party?
Separately, from the interviews I listened to, it seems like a combination of decisions can lead to death. And, if its anything like the no win situations in Dragon Age, a presented decision may be as such because of decisions you've made, like, 12 hard decisions ago! I personally get the sense (or have the naive hope?) that there won't be a clear and obvious path to survival. The decisions will have too much gravity to allow for a clear understanding of what variables will be in place. Not to say you won't be able to game it at all, but that the chance for narrative surprise will be palpable.
Lets see who's right next month! :D
I certainly hope I'm very much wrong about this, really. I just wanted to get some thoughts off my chest on the subject of could-have-been-great-endings while trying to be a little topical.
Bioware certainly has a good track record, and Dragon Age (while not my favorite game) set up a number of bars for them to reach and surpass from now on. But I suppose my concern comes from how they handled moral choices in Mass Effect (eg. too simple and transparent) and how the rest of the industry has been reacting to the moral choice fad with mostly less-than-inspired results (inFamous, Army of Two: the 40th day).
A good example of where some of the clarity of what is right to do and what will result in the "Best Ending" will be properly and interestingly lost would be, like you said, if there was a lot of opposition in your team towards certain ideas, while another is avidly for it (Morigan in Dragon Age, yeah?). Best case scenario: I'd love it if as the game reaches its final moments before the 'suicide mission', some characters are so in conflict with each other that you can't placate them entirely, someone will leave if you side with another character (like you were saying yourself). Worst case: You can keep hitting the "Charming" dialogue option and all interpersonal conflict is resolved, forever.
Either way, I suspect things won't be as bad as I fear (knock-on-wood). I just needed a good excuse to put up a first-blog after all this time. Thanks for reading all of that, too.
Bioware certainly has a good track record, and Dragon Age (while not my favorite game) set up a number of bars for them to reach and surpass from now on. But I suppose my concern comes from how they handled moral choices in Mass Effect (eg. too simple and transparent) and how the rest of the industry has been reacting to the moral choice fad with mostly less-than-inspired results (inFamous, Army of Two: the 40th day).
A good example of where some of the clarity of what is right to do and what will result in the "Best Ending" will be properly and interestingly lost would be, like you said, if there was a lot of opposition in your team towards certain ideas, while another is avidly for it (Morigan in Dragon Age, yeah?). Best case scenario: I'd love it if as the game reaches its final moments before the 'suicide mission', some characters are so in conflict with each other that you can't placate them entirely, someone will leave if you side with another character (like you were saying yourself). Worst case: You can keep hitting the "Charming" dialogue option and all interpersonal conflict is resolved, forever.
Either way, I suspect things won't be as bad as I fear (knock-on-wood). I just needed a good excuse to put up a first-blog after all this time. Thanks for reading all of that, too.
Agreeable general concern, for sure! The contrast of moral choice in inFamous was painfully discreet (Even if effective in the short reaching, black and white paradigm they were going for).
Also, I really do hope "trust" in this game will go a bit deeper than "I bought you all these things: don't you love me?". If not, we honestly aren't getting much more relationship depth in ME2 than Harvest Moon (hot as that game is). Unforgivable things resulting in limiting total possible trust would be ideal, I reckon.
I'm hoping Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 will urge a C-change in player decision options over the next few years, and hope neither of us is disappointed by Mass Effect 2. :)
Also, I really do hope "trust" in this game will go a bit deeper than "I bought you all these things: don't you love me?". If not, we honestly aren't getting much more relationship depth in ME2 than Harvest Moon (hot as that game is). Unforgivable things resulting in limiting total possible trust would be ideal, I reckon.
I'm hoping Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 will urge a C-change in player decision options over the next few years, and hope neither of us is disappointed by Mass Effect 2. :)
Great read. I've been playing Mass Effect again in preparation for ME2. I powered through ME1 in like 3 days back in late '07, so I didn't remember a whole lot. Since I powered through it, I deleted my save file upon learning about ME2's character transfer feature, since I vowed I would have to replay to be ready for ME2.
This time, however, I am very carefully trying to "create" my character knowing that there's character transfer coming up for ME2. I will, at times, literally restart the game to chose a different option if I do not like what Shepard says after a selection. To me, this is sort of disturbing -- I am not really projecting myself into Shepard, but rather projecting the kind of person I think I want to go on this upcoming "suicide" mission.
So perhaps BioWare hasn't even just set up for disappointment with the JUST the new game. For people like me who feel almost obliged to have to play ME1 again due to lack of recollection of my first playthrough, have they essentially gone and lessened the experience of ME1 too? I've chosen a different origin for my new Shepard; I've decided not to hold any romantic relationships; I've settled for the Charm option far more than I did on my first run through. This time, I keep thinking that I want Shepard to be sort of like Optimus Prime, rather than going with how I would act in Shepard's shoes. I am dodging any accountability for what may happen during the upcoming suicide mission -- I'm making Shepard infallible compared to myself.
This time, however, I am very carefully trying to "create" my character knowing that there's character transfer coming up for ME2. I will, at times, literally restart the game to chose a different option if I do not like what Shepard says after a selection. To me, this is sort of disturbing -- I am not really projecting myself into Shepard, but rather projecting the kind of person I think I want to go on this upcoming "suicide" mission.
So perhaps BioWare hasn't even just set up for disappointment with the JUST the new game. For people like me who feel almost obliged to have to play ME1 again due to lack of recollection of my first playthrough, have they essentially gone and lessened the experience of ME1 too? I've chosen a different origin for my new Shepard; I've decided not to hold any romantic relationships; I've settled for the Charm option far more than I did on my first run through. This time, I keep thinking that I want Shepard to be sort of like Optimus Prime, rather than going with how I would act in Shepard's shoes. I am dodging any accountability for what may happen during the upcoming suicide mission -- I'm making Shepard infallible compared to myself.
I agree with you.
I'm sure I'll eat the story up either way, but I agree with you. This has been my number one concern about the game since I first heard about the "suicide mission" aspect of it. Much as I love BioWare, they have always had an OCD/control-freak aspect to their games that doesn't sit well with me. The idea that every problem ever can be solved if you've taken the time to prepare for it, while an enjoyable power fantasy, is just not believable.
Unless you're Batman. Then it's awesome. Mmm, Batman...
*drools, stops after a moment, does a double-take*
Ahem.
Anyway, you can't make everyone happy, and everyone being happy is often antithetical to drama.
I can't deny that making everybody happy in a BioWare game satisfies me, but it satisfies me precisely because it's not something I can do in real life. It doesn't come from a place of emotional truth, it comes from an obsessive-compulsive need to make everything run the way I want it to. There is a lack of emotional truth within that model that prevents me from fully enjoying my hard-earned victory, and it is precisely because that victory wasn't really "hard-earned." "Hard-earned" means sacrifice, not "I worked on it for a really really long time, so can I just have victory naow plz!?" That is the emotional equivalent of empty calories. Sure, a Jolly Rancher tastes awesome, but it doesn't really satisfy you in the way a real apple does. I want games to burn my emotional calories, not keep me fat and naive.
If you are Batman, you are prepared for every eventuality. If you live in the real world, you just aren't. Sometimes there is nothing you can do.
...
OH MY GOD BIOWARE SHOULD DO A BATMAN RPG YOU GUYS
I'm sure I'll eat the story up either way, but I agree with you. This has been my number one concern about the game since I first heard about the "suicide mission" aspect of it. Much as I love BioWare, they have always had an OCD/control-freak aspect to their games that doesn't sit well with me. The idea that every problem ever can be solved if you've taken the time to prepare for it, while an enjoyable power fantasy, is just not believable.
Unless you're Batman. Then it's awesome. Mmm, Batman...
*drools, stops after a moment, does a double-take*
Ahem.
Anyway, you can't make everyone happy, and everyone being happy is often antithetical to drama.
I can't deny that making everybody happy in a BioWare game satisfies me, but it satisfies me precisely because it's not something I can do in real life. It doesn't come from a place of emotional truth, it comes from an obsessive-compulsive need to make everything run the way I want it to. There is a lack of emotional truth within that model that prevents me from fully enjoying my hard-earned victory, and it is precisely because that victory wasn't really "hard-earned." "Hard-earned" means sacrifice, not "I worked on it for a really really long time, so can I just have victory naow plz!?" That is the emotional equivalent of empty calories. Sure, a Jolly Rancher tastes awesome, but it doesn't really satisfy you in the way a real apple does. I want games to burn my emotional calories, not keep me fat and naive.
If you are Batman, you are prepared for every eventuality. If you live in the real world, you just aren't. Sometimes there is nothing you can do.
...
OH MY GOD BIOWARE SHOULD DO A BATMAN RPG YOU GUYS
Also: you are the second Dtoider I have ever liked enough to put on my friend list. Feel special. :P
This was a great read! I swear I'm some kind of Bioware fanboy, so I automatically love all their games and the stories in them. But you did bring to my attention a genuine concern. Let's hope the choices are more like what Tubatic mentioned.
thats interesting, but would you really enjoy putting so many hours ina an rpg, where you dont have control of whats going to happen in the end?
maybe, maybe not, but you might aswell just og watch a movie.
buts lets see how it plays out. im like 18 hours in atm, amazing so far.
maybe, maybe not, but you might aswell just og watch a movie.
buts lets see how it plays out. im like 18 hours in atm, amazing so far.
@Tubatic: For sure. Bioware has an impressive opportunity to make a pretty big shift in the player-driven sphere of gaming. If they do pull it off, I can imagine we'll see the ripple effects for years to come (maybe more than just Alpha Protocol). If they don't hit it out of the park though, well... there's always part three?
@Roek: That's an interesting result to their decision to promote this 'suicide mission' so heavily. I didn't initially think of it that way, myself. My Shepard was mostly "Paragon" and very reserved to begin with, though in some ways, I can see how preparing for part two has made me consider my actions (in my play-throughs this December) differently.
@Ffordesoon: I'm surprised to find that unlike in Metroid-vania games or collecta-thons, I am never more OCD about my games than I am with RPGs. There's also something about those moments in RPGs that stand as a "point of no return" that really bring out the freak in me. So naturally when games like these make looking under every rock so important to the game (but not to you personally), I get a little turned off of the experience. Maybe it's another example of player/character separation.
ALSO: Batman RPG -- why hasn't that been done?
@blackdeath1347: Right on. I should also mention there's no way I won't enjoy this game (I loved Mass Effect despite all it's flaws, too). I just have such high hopes for this one, ya know?
@eduh: I like to think as long as I can have as much control over my situation as reason dictates, then it doesn't matter if I don't get a happy ending every time. Keep things grounded in the reality of the universe you've crafted, and I won't complain no matter the situation. I like to feel like I've made a difference, but it doesn't mean I always have to get my way. You see what I mean?
@Roek: That's an interesting result to their decision to promote this 'suicide mission' so heavily. I didn't initially think of it that way, myself. My Shepard was mostly "Paragon" and very reserved to begin with, though in some ways, I can see how preparing for part two has made me consider my actions (in my play-throughs this December) differently.
@Ffordesoon: I'm surprised to find that unlike in Metroid-vania games or collecta-thons, I am never more OCD about my games than I am with RPGs. There's also something about those moments in RPGs that stand as a "point of no return" that really bring out the freak in me. So naturally when games like these make looking under every rock so important to the game (but not to you personally), I get a little turned off of the experience. Maybe it's another example of player/character separation.
ALSO: Batman RPG -- why hasn't that been done?
@blackdeath1347: Right on. I should also mention there's no way I won't enjoy this game (I loved Mass Effect despite all it's flaws, too). I just have such high hopes for this one, ya know?
@eduh: I like to think as long as I can have as much control over my situation as reason dictates, then it doesn't matter if I don't get a happy ending every time. Keep things grounded in the reality of the universe you've crafted, and I won't complain no matter the situation. I like to feel like I've made a difference, but it doesn't mean I always have to get my way. You see what I mean?
I believe this adds a layer of realism to the game: Anyone and everyone can die if you screw things up in the game.
My Xbox 360 is broken, and I won't get a new one. After reading this blog post, I might get Mass Effect 2 on the PC.
My Xbox 360 is broken, and I won't get a new one. After reading this blog post, I might get Mass Effect 2 on the PC.
Interesting idea which I would be very very surprised to see become reality: what if all this preparation saves the team, but ends up being the very instrument of Shepard's demise? You know, a Renegade saves himself, a Paragon takes one for the team, that sort of thing?
I think BioWare would make a lot of people very angry if they did that, so I don't expect to see it in there, but I still think it'd be a very ballsy choice for the ending.
I think BioWare would make a lot of people very angry if they did that, so I don't expect to see it in there, but I still think it'd be a very ballsy choice for the ending.
Love it. Very good read indeed sir!
Though I haven't seen any preview stuff such as interviews and dev dairies, I have heard about the whole "suicide mission" though I haven't heard that even then, you'll still be able to survive, which, makes me kind of feel they're contradicting the claim that it is a suicide mission and that it's... I don't know, an easy way out? Not sure if that applies here, but what I mean is like a safety net, an alternate ending where everything is still okay and "perfect" to the player which is what we've come to expect from a lot of stories. This also applies to a lot of decisions I've seen in games with this type of branching dialog: there is always that one dialog option that saves them. Of course, it could be in there as a way to take back what the player said, but even then the character the player is talking to will just seem to forget the whole thing. Maybe i'm going to off topic there? Oh well, forget what I just said.
I think the main point i'm trying to get across is that consequence doesn't seem to be... reinforced in games enough. I often hear this claim of "Your actions will affect space and time indefinitely!" when, to me, I have yet to feel the actions and decisions I have made have truly impacted the game universe.
Anywho, that's just my thoughts on this.
Though I haven't seen any preview stuff such as interviews and dev dairies, I have heard about the whole "suicide mission" though I haven't heard that even then, you'll still be able to survive, which, makes me kind of feel they're contradicting the claim that it is a suicide mission and that it's... I don't know, an easy way out? Not sure if that applies here, but what I mean is like a safety net, an alternate ending where everything is still okay and "perfect" to the player which is what we've come to expect from a lot of stories. This also applies to a lot of decisions I've seen in games with this type of branching dialog: there is always that one dialog option that saves them. Of course, it could be in there as a way to take back what the player said, but even then the character the player is talking to will just seem to forget the whole thing. Maybe i'm going to off topic there? Oh well, forget what I just said.
I think the main point i'm trying to get across is that consequence doesn't seem to be... reinforced in games enough. I often hear this claim of "Your actions will affect space and time indefinitely!" when, to me, I have yet to feel the actions and decisions I have made have truly impacted the game universe.
Anywho, that's just my thoughts on this.
Hmm well after reading this my only concern with what I am sure will transpire in my playthrough is that ME3 will make no sense in the trilogy for my part. If Sheperd can survive then certainly that will be the Canon ending. Seeing as I get the most enjoyment out of an RPG playing by the seat of my pants and living with decisions made I imagine there is a very likely chance my Sheperd will not be surving to part 3.

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