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I like the convenience Steam brings to the table, but I agree that no DRM should be needed. Frustrating.
I can only assume its people being enamored by cheap shit.
But I do agree, Steam is DRM like any other and I hate it, I remember when I was hacked and my account was suspended, no warning, no email nothing, just woke up one day and couldn't play anything, almost 600 dollar worth games gone.
It took me 2 weeks to get it unblocked and the entire burden of proof was on me, that's fucked up.
But I do agree, Steam is DRM like any other and I hate it, I remember when I was hacked and my account was suspended, no warning, no email nothing, just woke up one day and couldn't play anything, almost 600 dollar worth games gone.
It took me 2 weeks to get it unblocked and the entire burden of proof was on me, that's fucked up.
I like Steam. I like its organization of my games. I like the interface. I like Valve as a company. It may be DRM but its never let me down. So it goes.
@Kyousuke
That experience would honestly make me quit PC gaming altogether. I figured maybe a forum ban or something, but not even letting you access your games is something these companies should even physically be able to do.
@Occams
And I can't argue with you there. I also love Valve and what Steam brings to the table, and I think Steam is responsible for a lot of the successful Indie developers we have now. But I've aready had problems with DRM in the past. I'll buy games through Steam, but they've got to be damn cheap before that happens, AND I need to be able to access a workaround for the DRM.
I grew up with an NES, and I still love those old games. DRM makes it so we'll never be able to go back and play older games again if it gets bad enough, and I think it's getting bad enough.
That experience would honestly make me quit PC gaming altogether. I figured maybe a forum ban or something, but not even letting you access your games is something these companies should even physically be able to do.
@Occams
And I can't argue with you there. I also love Valve and what Steam brings to the table, and I think Steam is responsible for a lot of the successful Indie developers we have now. But I've aready had problems with DRM in the past. I'll buy games through Steam, but they've got to be damn cheap before that happens, AND I need to be able to access a workaround for the DRM.
I grew up with an NES, and I still love those old games. DRM makes it so we'll never be able to go back and play older games again if it gets bad enough, and I think it's getting bad enough.
@ Occams
You know you could have all that without it being DRM, they're just forcing it on you. Also I can't believe you like the interface :| The software itself is overly resource intensive for basically a browser gui. The "friends" service goes down wayyy to often for what is essentially a jumped up IM service (xfire). It's big and obtrusive where a much smaller interface can do. Basically it's the itunes of gaming.
Nobody liked it when it came out, and it really hasn't changed much (the corners turned from angles to smoothed edges woo) but it has "awesome" sales (retail prices are usually pretty close/lower all the time) and people have become so comfortable with it they now can't live with out it, shit and all.
As the old joke goes, it's a steaming pile of shit.
gog is a far better service that doesn't even have management software, and those packaged installers are fucking awesome.
And then step away from the whole software thing if for some perverse reason you actually like it. It still has DRM, it doesn't need to but it does. It's not because of piracy, it's to stop second hand PC sales and control what you do with software (I would say "your software" but it isn't, cause you don't own shit on steam. You're renting a license.)
You know you could have all that without it being DRM, they're just forcing it on you. Also I can't believe you like the interface :| The software itself is overly resource intensive for basically a browser gui. The "friends" service goes down wayyy to often for what is essentially a jumped up IM service (xfire). It's big and obtrusive where a much smaller interface can do. Basically it's the itunes of gaming.
Nobody liked it when it came out, and it really hasn't changed much (the corners turned from angles to smoothed edges woo) but it has "awesome" sales (retail prices are usually pretty close/lower all the time) and people have become so comfortable with it they now can't live with out it, shit and all.
As the old joke goes, it's a steaming pile of shit.
gog is a far better service that doesn't even have management software, and those packaged installers are fucking awesome.
And then step away from the whole software thing if for some perverse reason you actually like it. It still has DRM, it doesn't need to but it does. It's not because of piracy, it's to stop second hand PC sales and control what you do with software (I would say "your software" but it isn't, cause you don't own shit on steam. You're renting a license.)
@Dao2-SKP
I agree completely with your last paragraph. The only thing that bugs me about Good Old Games is that in their EULAs, they outright say that you don't own the game, and that it's being licensed to you. That's a whole different beast, but at least with GOG, you actually FEEL like you own the game, even if you don't, which is probably more for legal reasons than anything else.
I agree completely with your last paragraph. The only thing that bugs me about Good Old Games is that in their EULAs, they outright say that you don't own the game, and that it's being licensed to you. That's a whole different beast, but at least with GOG, you actually FEEL like you own the game, even if you don't, which is probably more for legal reasons than anything else.
It took me many years to be ok with the prospect of Steam.
In essence though, I agree. Steam is DRM. I see a lot of comments like "hopefully this will come DRM free to Steam!" and I'm utterly confused as to what they think Steam actually is. However, I enjoy the interface, and I enjoy the sales.
In essence though, I agree. Steam is DRM. I see a lot of comments like "hopefully this will come DRM free to Steam!" and I'm utterly confused as to what they think Steam actually is. However, I enjoy the interface, and I enjoy the sales.
@ Pedro
Actually that's not bad, it's how it should be. You never own the game when you purchase even in the old days (would kind of mean you own it as a whole). Instead what you do is buy a license, that comes with some restrictions such as your not supposed to modify it, resell it, etc. Basically you can do with it what you want as long as it's "intended use".
DRM basically says you can't do all that stuff, but additionally that you do not even own a license, and as such "intended use" or not they dictate when/where you use said product including removing any ability to use it.
Actually that's not bad, it's how it should be. You never own the game when you purchase even in the old days (would kind of mean you own it as a whole). Instead what you do is buy a license, that comes with some restrictions such as your not supposed to modify it, resell it, etc. Basically you can do with it what you want as long as it's "intended use".
DRM basically says you can't do all that stuff, but additionally that you do not even own a license, and as such "intended use" or not they dictate when/where you use said product including removing any ability to use it.
@Dao2-SKP I do like the interface. And GoG is DRM free and I use it but again, I like Steam's organization. I've never had any problems with it. It does exactly what I need it to do. I understand about the DRM aspect with Steam but its never been an issue for me. Thanks for explaining it to me a bit, I appreciate that but for now, Steam is ok in my book.
"In essence though, I agree. Steam is DRM. I see a lot of comments like "hopefully this will come DRM free to Steam!" and I'm utterly confused as to what they think Steam actually is."
That is precisely why Steam is so successful. Some people may rage against DRM on principle, but most of us couldn't care less if our games have DRM, SOS, XXX or what have you, we just don't want to be inconvenienced and penalized for actually paying for a game. Steam is not only not perceived as an inconvenient, it is seen as adding value. A DRM scheme that isn't even understood as DRM is the very definition of successful DRM.
That is precisely why Steam is so successful. Some people may rage against DRM on principle, but most of us couldn't care less if our games have DRM, SOS, XXX or what have you, we just don't want to be inconvenienced and penalized for actually paying for a game. Steam is not only not perceived as an inconvenient, it is seen as adding value. A DRM scheme that isn't even understood as DRM is the very definition of successful DRM.
I agree with your points in theory, but the thing with Steam (as others have mentioned) is the trust factor. I TRUST Valve. WAAAAAY more than I trust Microsoft, Sony, EA, etc. If it weren't for that, I'd hate Steam just as much as I do other DRM "services".
But until Steam lets me down, I'll have NO problem with them "holding onto" my games for me. And that's something I just can't say about any of the other providers out there.
Anyway, fapping because this was a well-written blog!
But until Steam lets me down, I'll have NO problem with them "holding onto" my games for me. And that's something I just can't say about any of the other providers out there.
Anyway, fapping because this was a well-written blog!
@Andy
I appreciate the fapping! And that's not something I sa to just anyone. :-P
I see where you're coming from, though, trust me. I guess I'm just a bit more cynical when it comes to big companies. Indie stuff has been hugely successful lately, and I just think it's the best of both worlds with no restrictions and excellent products. And no one can argue that Indie developers haven't been making money.
I appreciate the fapping! And that's not something I sa to just anyone. :-P
I see where you're coming from, though, trust me. I guess I'm just a bit more cynical when it comes to big companies. Indie stuff has been hugely successful lately, and I just think it's the best of both worlds with no restrictions and excellent products. And no one can argue that Indie developers haven't been making money.
Also, @Dao2
Yeah, sometimes I forget that PC games have ALWAYS had EULAs. Console games are different -- In fact, I believe it was actually illegal to have EULAs attached to "games that were meant to be played on machines that have the primary purpose of playing games" or something like that, according to the DMCA. That changed in October of 2010, but no companies have implemented it yet.
Have you ever compared a GFWL and Xbox 360 game before? Stuff like Fallout 3 will say "Do not make illegal copies of this disc" on the 360, and "Do not lend or make illegal copies of this disc" on the PC. Always cracks me up.
Yeah, sometimes I forget that PC games have ALWAYS had EULAs. Console games are different -- In fact, I believe it was actually illegal to have EULAs attached to "games that were meant to be played on machines that have the primary purpose of playing games" or something like that, according to the DMCA. That changed in October of 2010, but no companies have implemented it yet.
Have you ever compared a GFWL and Xbox 360 game before? Stuff like Fallout 3 will say "Do not make illegal copies of this disc" on the 360, and "Do not lend or make illegal copies of this disc" on the PC. Always cracks me up.
@ Andy
It's actually worse that Valve runs it, because now it's a second decision to bring down the content. If Valve no longer wants to host it/steam goes down, the content will become unavailable, of course. But if EA/Sony no longer want it up either it will similarly also become available, it's not like they can tell EA "fuck you, we're gonna keep hosting". GoG may or may not go down, probably far more likely to do so than Steam. But if it does, so what? Everything you have will still work fine.
@ Pedro
Yup pretty much always have, but they haven't always been recognized by the courts, actually they never stood up. I forget exactly what it was called that kept it for that but it was something like "shrink wrap policy" or some crap, basically you can't force people to accept a contract or not use it at all after they already paid for it or some such, it's more complicated than that I'm sure, not lawyer-man here. Either way long gone is the time where people come before companies, we're just moneyfucks for them nowadays and the rest might as well be mouthpieces.
Not that I had an issue with the old EULA's minus when it came to online aspects, they were pretty fair. You pay you own a license and you can do pretty much everything you want with it except make copies other than for personal use (although some tried to limit that and failed) and ripping source and stuff like that.
It's actually worse that Valve runs it, because now it's a second decision to bring down the content. If Valve no longer wants to host it/steam goes down, the content will become unavailable, of course. But if EA/Sony no longer want it up either it will similarly also become available, it's not like they can tell EA "fuck you, we're gonna keep hosting". GoG may or may not go down, probably far more likely to do so than Steam. But if it does, so what? Everything you have will still work fine.
@ Pedro
Yup pretty much always have, but they haven't always been recognized by the courts, actually they never stood up. I forget exactly what it was called that kept it for that but it was something like "shrink wrap policy" or some crap, basically you can't force people to accept a contract or not use it at all after they already paid for it or some such, it's more complicated than that I'm sure, not lawyer-man here. Either way long gone is the time where people come before companies, we're just moneyfucks for them nowadays and the rest might as well be mouthpieces.
Not that I had an issue with the old EULA's minus when it came to online aspects, they were pretty fair. You pay you own a license and you can do pretty much everything you want with it except make copies other than for personal use (although some tried to limit that and failed) and ripping source and stuff like that.
@Dao2
Yeah, the EULAs are someting I'm getting a bit more okay with. I know it's more for legal/theft reasons, anyway. I sincerely doubt the SWAT team is going to bust my door down if I bring a PC game to a friend's house to show them. But I understand they need to protect their IPs. I'd much rather deal with an EULA than DRM.
And then we have awesome stuff like Super Meat Boy that had NOTHING.
Yeah, the EULAs are someting I'm getting a bit more okay with. I know it's more for legal/theft reasons, anyway. I sincerely doubt the SWAT team is going to bust my door down if I bring a PC game to a friend's house to show them. But I understand they need to protect their IPs. I'd much rather deal with an EULA than DRM.
And then we have awesome stuff like Super Meat Boy that had NOTHING.
Christ. Welcome to 2012, get a stable internet connection if you want to game.
DRM is not unreasonable.
DRM is good.
I am increasingly convinced that most DRM-whiners are pirates butthurt because companies are protecting their ability to make and release games by trying to make sure everybody playing paid in good faith.
I hope the next generation of consoles employees the Steam model of binding serial numbers to player accounts. Drown the pawnshop used games market, combat piracy, and help get rid of the need for physical disks. People who have a problem with that can quit gaming for all I care.
DRM is not unreasonable.
DRM is good.
I am increasingly convinced that most DRM-whiners are pirates butthurt because companies are protecting their ability to make and release games by trying to make sure everybody playing paid in good faith.
I hope the next generation of consoles employees the Steam model of binding serial numbers to player accounts. Drown the pawnshop used games market, combat piracy, and help get rid of the need for physical disks. People who have a problem with that can quit gaming for all I care.
@Stahlbrand
I'm convinced you were drunk when you typed all that. You want me to get a solid Internet connection that will NEVER have any issues at all? Fine. Send me the monthly check, then. If you're going to tell me what to pay for and what not to pay for, then you can provide the funds for me.
Also, "DRM is good" is honestly the stupidest thing I've ever heard, opinion or otherwise. Besides, how can DRM be good when it doesn't work in the first place? Show me a DRM scheme that's never been cracked, and I'll show you bullshit.
I'm convinced you were drunk when you typed all that. You want me to get a solid Internet connection that will NEVER have any issues at all? Fine. Send me the monthly check, then. If you're going to tell me what to pay for and what not to pay for, then you can provide the funds for me.
Also, "DRM is good" is honestly the stupidest thing I've ever heard, opinion or otherwise. Besides, how can DRM be good when it doesn't work in the first place? Show me a DRM scheme that's never been cracked, and I'll show you bullshit.
Oh, and just assuming people who want to actually feel like they own what they pay for are immediately and automatically thieves? I assume you're a politician with that way of thinking, correct?
He's just an ignorant fool who thinks he knows whats up or trolling.
It's not like he threw in any reasons and he mentioned DRM like it was actually copyright protection :P
Just ignore em
It's not like he threw in any reasons and he mentioned DRM like it was actually copyright protection :P
Just ignore em
I hate Steam. I always have, always will. My desktop icons installed by Steam don't work because they cannot find the game they are linked to so I have to remove certain files from their folders to make it work. That is not good DRM, that is shitty service. I do not tolerate inconvenience when it comes to something so trivial. I can't even imagine what could happen if Steam screws up even more. It wouldn't even be so irritating of a service if I didn't have to use for certain physical disk copies of games. Digital should not infect physical, it should cooperate with it.
"It wouldn't even be so irritating of a service if I didn't have to use for certain physical disk copies of games."
God in Heaven, THIS.
God in Heaven, THIS.
The future:
Its good DRM strategies like Steam on consoles and everywhere else, or its an industry crash, like the time the games market died after Atari and before Nintendo.
It costs too much money to make a mainstream game for the money-side of companies to sit there and watch the pawnshop industry poach sales by undercutting the new price by just $5. Have you watch the credits on a big game lately? It takes years to make a game and every name on that list needs to be paid, as do middleware vendors, software licensing fees, insurance companies, marketing costs... Next generation is going to increase the amount of work that needs too be done, because expectations for graphics and presentation will be even higher.
If they can't please their shareholders, publishers will become insolvent - it is happening already, look at THQ - big hits with Saints Row the Third and Darksiders - but they're cutting studios and cancelling projects left and right just to keep their head above water.
Remember, all the new F2P games in the current movement are effectively built-in DRM - everything is tied to your account, they're all online games (so you have to have a stable connection), you can't 'lend' them without violating the TOS by sharing your login, and they will eventually go away, along with whatever micro-transaction purchases you made.
DRM is meant to stop piracy, curb used sales, and keep the market honest. It can be done poorly, as Ubisoft did with a few games in the past couple of years, but that doesn't mean DRM as a concept is flawed. Steam sets a clear example of how well DRM can be deployed without getting between honest consumers and their entertainment. If the next consoles don't adopt a Steam-like DRM scheme, we won't have an industry in a few years.
I mean, maybe you can survive on pixel-art indie bundles, but I want a stable, healthy industry cranking out "AAA" spectacle games.
Ten years ago internet access was a novelty. Nowadays, it is a reasonable expectation that if you can afford a $2,000 computer or a $300 console (or $500+ at launch) you can also afford a basic broadband internet connection - if you are so broke you can't pay for internet you shouldn't be spending so much on new consoles.
If you're a kid in school, take up a paper route or something and offer to kick in a few bucks a month until your parents buy a better internet package. It isn't an insurmountable problem. If you live out in some rural backwater and don't have broadband service, you are out of luck, but you can't please every marginal edge-case.
Its good DRM strategies like Steam on consoles and everywhere else, or its an industry crash, like the time the games market died after Atari and before Nintendo.
It costs too much money to make a mainstream game for the money-side of companies to sit there and watch the pawnshop industry poach sales by undercutting the new price by just $5. Have you watch the credits on a big game lately? It takes years to make a game and every name on that list needs to be paid, as do middleware vendors, software licensing fees, insurance companies, marketing costs... Next generation is going to increase the amount of work that needs too be done, because expectations for graphics and presentation will be even higher.
If they can't please their shareholders, publishers will become insolvent - it is happening already, look at THQ - big hits with Saints Row the Third and Darksiders - but they're cutting studios and cancelling projects left and right just to keep their head above water.
Remember, all the new F2P games in the current movement are effectively built-in DRM - everything is tied to your account, they're all online games (so you have to have a stable connection), you can't 'lend' them without violating the TOS by sharing your login, and they will eventually go away, along with whatever micro-transaction purchases you made.
DRM is meant to stop piracy, curb used sales, and keep the market honest. It can be done poorly, as Ubisoft did with a few games in the past couple of years, but that doesn't mean DRM as a concept is flawed. Steam sets a clear example of how well DRM can be deployed without getting between honest consumers and their entertainment. If the next consoles don't adopt a Steam-like DRM scheme, we won't have an industry in a few years.
I mean, maybe you can survive on pixel-art indie bundles, but I want a stable, healthy industry cranking out "AAA" spectacle games.
Ten years ago internet access was a novelty. Nowadays, it is a reasonable expectation that if you can afford a $2,000 computer or a $300 console (or $500+ at launch) you can also afford a basic broadband internet connection - if you are so broke you can't pay for internet you shouldn't be spending so much on new consoles.
If you're a kid in school, take up a paper route or something and offer to kick in a few bucks a month until your parents buy a better internet package. It isn't an insurmountable problem. If you live out in some rural backwater and don't have broadband service, you are out of luck, but you can't please every marginal edge-case.
@Stahlbrand
DRM is MEANT to stop piracy, curb used sales and keep the market honest. It's never been able to accomplish that. Like I said, show me ONE SINGLE DRM SCHEME that's ever actually worked.
If this is what the customers wanted, would there have been such a big uproar over what Ubisoft was doing? Would there be such backlash at the mere rumors of the next Microsoft and Sony consoles? How can there be an honest market if no one is buying consoles and console games anymore because they're being screwed over?
If DRM-free didn't work, Indie games wouldn't be taking off the way they are. Look at Super Meat Boy. That game was pirated a shitload, but the guys who made it still made more money than they know what to do with, because MORE people bought it than the ones who pirated it.
Look at Good Old Games. If what you're saying is true, and the industry would crumble because of DRM-free games and dishonest gamers, Good Old Games would have gone under YEARS ago. And now, they're starting to release games that are brand-new. You think developers, especially small Indie ones, would trust the website if they thought DRM was the way to go?
People respect companies for not fucking with them.
Also, the difference with the F2P model you describe is that most of the games THEMSELVES are also free to download now -- There's not even an initial payment for the game itself anymore. Of course everyone's going to be okay with that.
The point that people seem to be missing is that for right now, in the present time, DRM is totally fine. It's going back to play games in the future that will be considered "retro" by that time that'll be a kick in the nuts. The term "retro gamer" will not exist anymore starting next generation, and that's something that no one will find acceptable once it's actually realized by the majority.
DRM is bad. It's always been bad, and it will always be bad. It does nothing for the developer, it does nothing for the publisher, and it does nothing for the consumer. IT DOESN'T WORK. Most people pirate games BECAUSE of the DRM, and there will never be a single DRM scheme that remains uncrackable.
DRM is MEANT to stop piracy, curb used sales and keep the market honest. It's never been able to accomplish that. Like I said, show me ONE SINGLE DRM SCHEME that's ever actually worked.
If this is what the customers wanted, would there have been such a big uproar over what Ubisoft was doing? Would there be such backlash at the mere rumors of the next Microsoft and Sony consoles? How can there be an honest market if no one is buying consoles and console games anymore because they're being screwed over?
If DRM-free didn't work, Indie games wouldn't be taking off the way they are. Look at Super Meat Boy. That game was pirated a shitload, but the guys who made it still made more money than they know what to do with, because MORE people bought it than the ones who pirated it.
Look at Good Old Games. If what you're saying is true, and the industry would crumble because of DRM-free games and dishonest gamers, Good Old Games would have gone under YEARS ago. And now, they're starting to release games that are brand-new. You think developers, especially small Indie ones, would trust the website if they thought DRM was the way to go?
People respect companies for not fucking with them.
Also, the difference with the F2P model you describe is that most of the games THEMSELVES are also free to download now -- There's not even an initial payment for the game itself anymore. Of course everyone's going to be okay with that.
The point that people seem to be missing is that for right now, in the present time, DRM is totally fine. It's going back to play games in the future that will be considered "retro" by that time that'll be a kick in the nuts. The term "retro gamer" will not exist anymore starting next generation, and that's something that no one will find acceptable once it's actually realized by the majority.
DRM is bad. It's always been bad, and it will always be bad. It does nothing for the developer, it does nothing for the publisher, and it does nothing for the consumer. IT DOESN'T WORK. Most people pirate games BECAUSE of the DRM, and there will never be a single DRM scheme that remains uncrackable.
Steam works great.
This isn't about what 'the customer wants' because the customer would want $1 Lamborginis if you asked. You don't give a kid ice cream for dinner just because of a backlash against potatoes - the companies have to keep the customers' best interest in mind, not just their wants.
Indie games, good joke. A one man game with gameboy graphics doesn't need to make money the same way GTA5 will. Its apples and oranges.
Future retro gamers, if there are enough of them, will represent a need in the market - and some company will be the future GoG, and respond to that need then. In 20 years somebody will buy the rights to the HL2 source code and make it availible, even if Steam is gone then.
DRM is good. It hasn't always been implemented well or fairly, but as a new idea there is always a period of growing pains.
I hope pirates get dick cancer, just sayin'
This isn't about what 'the customer wants' because the customer would want $1 Lamborginis if you asked. You don't give a kid ice cream for dinner just because of a backlash against potatoes - the companies have to keep the customers' best interest in mind, not just their wants.
Indie games, good joke. A one man game with gameboy graphics doesn't need to make money the same way GTA5 will. Its apples and oranges.
Future retro gamers, if there are enough of them, will represent a need in the market - and some company will be the future GoG, and respond to that need then. In 20 years somebody will buy the rights to the HL2 source code and make it availible, even if Steam is gone then.
DRM is good. It hasn't always been implemented well or fairly, but as a new idea there is always a period of growing pains.
I hope pirates get dick cancer, just sayin'
Game Boy Graphics? I hope you're just talking about Super Meat Boy specifically (which was a design choice by the way), and not all Indie games. Otherwise, I wish I had a Game Boy that had games that looked like Hawken and Legend of Grimrock. You must have gotten a limited edition or something.
I was with you and respecting the discussion, and I agree that pirates deserve to at least get caught and have legal action thrown in their faces, but I can't respect anything you say anymore when you start to demean Indie game developers. Just because a couple people don't count as a full-blown company like Rockstar doesn't mean they're making games for charity -- They're making games because they may WANT to possibly build company someday, and getting paid to do what they love is awesome. They deserve to make just as much money as anyone else does, and they realize that DRM is the worst way to get customers. I'd take Super Meat Boy over the next Generic Hooker Killer 35 game any day of the week, and I'm certainly not the only person who feels that way. (And it's fine if you feel the exact opposite, too.)
Indie games are just as important as games from huge companies, and they know how to not only give a shit about their customers, but how to make money, too.
I was with you and respecting the discussion, and I agree that pirates deserve to at least get caught and have legal action thrown in their faces, but I can't respect anything you say anymore when you start to demean Indie game developers. Just because a couple people don't count as a full-blown company like Rockstar doesn't mean they're making games for charity -- They're making games because they may WANT to possibly build company someday, and getting paid to do what they love is awesome. They deserve to make just as much money as anyone else does, and they realize that DRM is the worst way to get customers. I'd take Super Meat Boy over the next Generic Hooker Killer 35 game any day of the week, and I'm certainly not the only person who feels that way. (And it's fine if you feel the exact opposite, too.)
Indie games are just as important as games from huge companies, and they know how to not only give a shit about their customers, but how to make money, too.
And as far as the one-man game argument goes, it's ONE GUY that does a lot of these Indie games. If anything, they deserve MORE money for what they accomplish than giant companies do. Again, that's just an opinion, but it's a very valid one.
@Stahlbrand: "ts good DRM strategies like Steam on consoles and everywhere else, or its an industry crash, like the time the games market died after Atari and before Nintendo."
I'll take that crash 100/100 times any day, it would be the best to happen to clean this industry of bullshit and start over fresh again.
I'll take that crash 100/100 times any day, it would be the best to happen to clean this industry of bullshit and start over fresh again.
@pedrovay2003: I agree that DRM is DRM no matter what and we all would be better off without it in any of it's forms (Steam included), but the point of the petition is more about changing crappy, inconvenient, useless DRM for a DRM that actually as CaimDark put it: "Works so well it's not even perceived as DRM"
@EdgyDude
Yeah, I understand what the petition is for. I'm just in the minority, because I LIKE hearing GFWL. There are two forms of DRM with it, and one version is just a disc check, which I'll take any day of the week. I've also never had a single problem with GFWL -- I still don't understand what these problems are that people seem to have all the time. Then again, if it's not just a disc check, I don't buy it.
And I still think Steam is just as "invasive" as GFWL, which is why I cringe when people don't consider it to be DRM. It has the same exact restrictions as EVERY other DRM out there, i.e., the ones people always complan about. Whether they all work the same or not is up to personal experience, I suppose, but I've never had any issues. My problem with BOTH services is that trying to play your huge libraries that you've had forever the FUTURE is going to suck. That, and DRM never ever ever works, so they're screwing customers over basically for kicks at this point.
I think Steam is great as a delivery service. I also think that's all it SHOULD be.
Yeah, I understand what the petition is for. I'm just in the minority, because I LIKE hearing GFWL. There are two forms of DRM with it, and one version is just a disc check, which I'll take any day of the week. I've also never had a single problem with GFWL -- I still don't understand what these problems are that people seem to have all the time. Then again, if it's not just a disc check, I don't buy it.
And I still think Steam is just as "invasive" as GFWL, which is why I cringe when people don't consider it to be DRM. It has the same exact restrictions as EVERY other DRM out there, i.e., the ones people always complan about. Whether they all work the same or not is up to personal experience, I suppose, but I've never had any issues. My problem with BOTH services is that trying to play your huge libraries that you've had forever the FUTURE is going to suck. That, and DRM never ever ever works, so they're screwing customers over basically for kicks at this point.
I think Steam is great as a delivery service. I also think that's all it SHOULD be.
@Pedro
I have had issues with Games For Windows Live with saves and logging-in. It has frequently lost saves, at least with the early Fallout 3/Batman: AA versions. However, even with the more recent versions I have had issues even logging-in. I will have my e-mail and password saved, only to be invalid, despite these same saved fields having worked before. I have also just had issues with added lag when entering games (in fairness, this has rarely occurred with Steam games as well).
That said, I totally respect your stance on Steam. It took me many, many, many years to even approach Steam let alone purchase any non-Valve game from Steam. Only in the last year or so have I actually started buying Steam games. Even so, if I can get a non-Steam version of a game, I will typically go for that instead. Too often physical games are packaged with Steam, which kinda ticks me off at times. At the end of the day, it just means I will either get games when they are super cheap or if there is NO other means to playing the game other than through some DRM service like Steam.
I have had issues with Games For Windows Live with saves and logging-in. It has frequently lost saves, at least with the early Fallout 3/Batman: AA versions. However, even with the more recent versions I have had issues even logging-in. I will have my e-mail and password saved, only to be invalid, despite these same saved fields having worked before. I have also just had issues with added lag when entering games (in fairness, this has rarely occurred with Steam games as well).
That said, I totally respect your stance on Steam. It took me many, many, many years to even approach Steam let alone purchase any non-Valve game from Steam. Only in the last year or so have I actually started buying Steam games. Even so, if I can get a non-Steam version of a game, I will typically go for that instead. Too often physical games are packaged with Steam, which kinda ticks me off at times. At the end of the day, it just means I will either get games when they are super cheap or if there is NO other means to playing the game other than through some DRM service like Steam.
@Joe
That's so crazy. I've never had any issues, but then again, I've never told it to save my login info. Did you change any other Windows Live stuff? It's all linked, so change one password, and they ALL change.
I also have a ton of Steam games, but only when they're super cheap. I don't think I've paid more than $5-7 for a Steamworks game before. Their sales really are good.
That's so crazy. I've never had any issues, but then again, I've never told it to save my login info. Did you change any other Windows Live stuff? It's all linked, so change one password, and they ALL change.
I also have a ton of Steam games, but only when they're super cheap. I don't think I've paid more than $5-7 for a Steamworks game before. Their sales really are good.
@Pedro
Nope, it will just take a few tries and a series of heart attacks to get it to work. I am always paranoid someone has hacked my account haha.
Nope, it will just take a few tries and a series of heart attacks to get it to work. I am always paranoid someone has hacked my account haha.
While I agree with people I like the convenience Steam brings to the table but I hate the DRM that comes with steam. That why I always try to buy hardcopy or through Impulse. Sadly more companies are tring to remove hardcopies/impulse sells which really gets to me. Even more so when you buy a hard copy game. That has DLC on the Disk that companies will later sell you a key code to unlock the data on your disk. Between DRM and low blow was to rip us off. I started to not even want to play games anymore. Companies need to release piracy is growing cause they spend more time ripping us off and less time making good game. Why do they think we will buy their games if they treating their customers like thieves and asking for 60 bucks for a game not even worth 5 dollars.
Steam is nothing more then DRM that you can download and buy games from. Which makes it harder to even love such good games I know will be epic. When the company of such a wonderful game tells me. "Look here THEIF. This is my game and you are just renting it. You will play it when I will let you play it."
Steam is nothing more then DRM that you can download and buy games from. Which makes it harder to even love such good games I know will be epic. When the company of such a wonderful game tells me. "Look here THEIF. This is my game and you are just renting it. You will play it when I will let you play it."
