The argument that games need to be fun, or need to constantly force events and action (violence/dialogue/narrative) on players seriously kneecaps what games can do. If you have a requirement that games need to have specific goals, or need to be
fun, you are limiting the ability to approach ideas and themes in ways that are interesting. Let's use a game about ennui, for example. To cover the subject of ennui, it doesn't make much sense to approach it with fun and constant excitement. An interesting take on the theme would be to create the game to not only show the theme through art design and character interaction, but to actually make the player
feel it through gameplay.
What I'm saying is that there are certain themes and ideas that don't lend themselves to conventional approaches. Some things need a loose narrative, or no substantial narrative at all. Some need to be vague or else they would be doing a disservice to the material. In a game about alienation, it would be more poignant to use a loose narrative and be vague about characters and details, because it would make the player feel alienated. Using a conventional narrative style and being too direct would tell the player they feel alienated. There is a motto in filmmaking, "show don't tell." It needs to be adopted to game design (though slightly altered, with interaction placed together "show").
Fortunately we are in the midst of what could be considered the first true creative movement in gaming. In the last few years, with all the various development programs available to everyone/anyone, we have seen a major increase in expressive and personal games (Jason Rohmer's
Passage for example). This isn't to say that there weren't expressive and personal games released before the early to mid-00s, but rarely were there games designed with expression taking priority over accessibility or marketability.
This approach to game design will initially frustrate people, like it did with me, but with an open mind and the abandonment of what you think games should be, you might learn to love it as many already have. This apprehension about change is normal for artistic mediums, they all go through it, and soon people will realize that it isn't threatening them or the style of game they love, it is adding a new option for curious gamers. For someone like me, who has grown increasingly bored with the typically derivative sequels and new IPs churned out every year, this movement is a breath of fresh air and a reason to stick with gaming.
Saying games need to be fun, is just like saying film/literature/theater/etc. needs to be fun; it's silly and shows you to be narrow-minded. I'm not saying you all of a sudden need to respect a game because it seems arty, but instead of dismissing it because it isn't fun or you didn't understand what it means, approach it with a different mindset. Perhaps it will open itself up to you, and you'll find something to appreciate.
Just remember to keep an open mind.
And another fine reason for why I will forever curse the day the Atari marketing department came up with "video game."
You said "or need to constantly force events and action (violence/dialogue/narrative) on players seriously kneecaps what games can do. If you have a requirement that games need to have specific goals, or need to be fun, you are limiting the ability to approach ideas and themes in ways that are interesting. Let's use a game about ennui, for example. To cover the subject of ennui, it doesn't make much sense to approach it with fun and constant excitement. An interesting take on the theme would be to create the game to not only show the theme through art design and character interaction, but to actually make the player feel it through gameplay."
Well, those could both be fun. All being fun means is that it is entertaining or interesing. Fun Doesn't mean action/lots of events. Artsy games can still be fun. Perhaps I am just the one that is confused, but the word fun doesn't mean what your are claiming it means. I think you just should have said that you believe games don't need tons of constant action or something.
And that's an important thing to note as well. If you call your game a game, then you need to behave like a game. If you are only interested in art, go to an interactive art exhibit. Don't waste a gamer's time with your idea of what art is. Your place is the gallery, not my Steam account.
You want to talk about challenging art, and new movements, and creativity. As I argued, it's not creative to make a game like The Path. Nothing about that game is creative. It acts just like all the other pretentious art games. Making a game that is both artistic AND fun -- that is a challenge. That is new. That is creative.
I'm going to go ahead and recommend Aisle, as I tend to. It was one the most emotionally provocative games I've played, but beyond narrative it sidesteps 'action' and remains, I feel, an engaging game.
Because is they aren't then this happens. [/sarcasm]
Now i'm not saying all should be fun, but they damn well need to be at least entertaining
What's fun for you might not be fun to me however.
All games are designed to be fun, but not for every-one.
I have fun with RPG's, But I don't have fun with MW2 online. It's not fun to me so I don't play it.
It's fun to my brother, he plays it all the time. It need's to be fun. But Fun is too subjective to define.
Make the game too vague and we're off in Indie Gaming Land, get to specific and the player feels like they're on-rails. If you start from the middle, you and veer slightly to the vague or the more specific and not completely lose the players interest, though obviously someone bred on a heavily melodramatic JRPG narrative is going to have problems the second something like FFXII starts being more aloof and evasive. Or they'll have problems when Shadow of the Colossus comes along and has more of a minimalist presentation and wants you to interpret what's going on.
The only reason Nintendo keeps the Metroid series around is its acclaim, its fan-following and sales tend to be smaller than that of other Nintendo properties, but its because the other games do so well that they can keep putting out Metroid games. And this is the same case for Sony and Team Ico.
I don't know if I could call Metroid or Ico "fun" in a mainstream way, they clearly have a quality that entertains me, but that's because its holding my hand less than, say, Metal Gear Solid games would.
I tried to say it better, but couldn't.
Why can't you have boring pretentious art games in your Steam account? Seems a lot more efficient way to distribute them then sticking them in an art gallery. Nobody forced you to buy/play it.
Also, I'm a little disturbed by the idea that "No Fun = Art Game" or "Art Game = No Fun". Art games can be fun or funless. Funlessness can be a good or bad quality in art depending on your personal aesthetic framework. If you make the decision that pleasure is a requirement from art, then so be it. That is a valid view point (see also: Koons, Jeff). It is also a valid view point that obsession with pleasure is juvenile and bourgeois. This is what happens when you enter the world of Art. You get into all these fun little debates and join various factions and promote what you like and denounce what you don't like. But I think it's silly to focus on the Art/Not-Art dichotomy when what you really should be talking about is the Good Art/Bad Art dichotomy. It focuses the critical mind. You really have to figure out what you like, why you like it and why it's culturally Good Thing.
Definitely, the term "video game" worked when the medium was in its infancy, but it has evolved, the term doesn't provide larger thinking.
@lazyhoboguy
You are doing exactly what I'm saying is wrong. You have this idea that games need to be entertaining, they don't. My other big hobby is film, and many of my favorite films can really test your patience if you are looking for entertainment. If you are looking for something more you will be engaged on a different, and I think more meaningful, level.\
@Jim Sterling
The motivation comes from will to analyze and learn. If you go into a game like The Path or The Void with a mentality like yours there is no way you can appreciate it. For example, The Void never bored me, the game is always desperate and is always confusing. You are new to this place, you don't know its rules or what it is, all you have to guide you are others with their own questionable ideals and motivations.
Games like The Path are only a "video game" because that is a marketing blanket. Without that applied term it would never see the light of day. Its an outdated term.
Its not creative to you because you have this set idea about what pretentious art games are. You go in with the wrong mentality and refuse to let yourself come away with anything. Your mindset hampers creativity.
@Aurain
This isn't about the subjective idea of fun, this is about constant action (not necessarily violent) and direction. This is about the conventional approach making it difficult to explore ideas.
I would say that if a game provides you with an interesting experience, even if it isn't "fun" in a classic way, you're still enjoying yourself if it captures your interest. In other words, I think this is all semantics. Your idea of fun may vary, but games do need to be enjoyable. I don't see how anyone can argue that.
Anyway, to sum it all up: there are many ways to have fun. Not all of them include "holy shit" moments and wearing a big, cheesy grin.
If your actual focus here is, as you say, that the conventional approaches to making games are making growth in new directions difficult, well...that's not such an interesting discussion, in my opinion. Plenty of games have explored ideas that had little to do with conventional game design...pretty much as long as there have been video games, honestly. I mean, exactly what qualifies a game to meet your idea of an unconventional approach? Does it have to be not only "fun" in a traditional sense, but not even interesting?
Also, I disagree that games do not need to be entertaining. Those that loved Passage did not find the game to be boring, for instance. No matter how intellectually or emotionally fulfilling an experience is, it needs to hold the player's attention. This is also true with movies, books, and every other form of art. Some people will never find certain games to be entertaining and thus, will miss out on what the rest of us feel is a great experience. Similarly, some people will never be satisfied with "blockbuster" games and will find the endless shooting of random thugs to be dull, as well. I don't see why that's a big deal.