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Technical Difficulties: A true opponent stands before me photo
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[For his Monthly Musing, manasteel88 talks about the optional enemies and challenges that show up in games. Sometimes, these challenges are even more difficult than the final bosses. This month is almost over, so be on the look out for next month's musing topic on April 1st! -- JRo]

Say what you will about RPGs, they have the potential to create some well thought out enemies. Small grunts follow some invisible hierarchy that separates you from the big baddies of a dungeon. Even those bosses eventually push you forward to your real destination. The final confrontation, whether it comes from the world destroyer, the demon or even a god, will challenge the time and energy put in to your game.

I'm not talking about those guys.

No, I'm talking about the thing running around the vast world, that just happens to give you a world of trouble when you face it. Defeating this won't save a princess, nor will it change anything substantial in your game. It is just something that must be stopped. It has become a goal that must be overcome.

The big baddies won't destroy the world without me there anyway.



When I was running through Nier recently, I decided to stumble off the beaten path to a region just south of the village. This area was full of newer animals for me to kill for their meat. With this new game in sight, I attacked. As soon as my second strike was about to hit the animal, a beam hits both of us. It struck with such force that my opponent had exploded.

As I looked to my right, here stood a giant lumbering wordbeast.

It was on.

For 25 minutes I danced around this guy, blocking and rolling as he shot laser after laser at me. I was able to stay just outside his range for the most part and fire off my lance as he trudged toward me. Realistically, all this time spent focusing on a giant could probably have been spent efficiently leveling up my character to even out the playing field.

I however will not be beaten in a battle that can be won.

So I sat and I slowly whittled him down to nothing. Then with only a small fraction of his life bar still left on him, I carelessly got hit by a big one.

I died and a controller was thrown.

I had spent more time whittling this colossus down, than any other enemy I had faced in the game at that point. All because I couldn't do things the simpler way.



This same situation happened in Mass Effect for me, except for a completely different reason. The way that the achievement system works is that achievements for kills are placed behind limitations of the user's class. In the same way a Soldier can't use a Biotics abilities, a Biotic doesn't have access to the full range of weaponry that a soldier has. This limitation makes it difficult to master all abilities in one playthrough. That is unless you go out of your way to get the achievements.

I went out of my way.

In my first playthrough, I decided to try and take on a Geth Colossus with a sniper rifle to see how long I could survive. Thanks to cover mechanics, it was actually a bit easier than I thought. The trouble was getting the reload and aim down. With no experience in the weaponry, it shakes and wobbles like crazy making for a highly inefficient gun. Geth should also be proud of how sturdy their tanks are. A Colossus's shields are thick and regenerate pretty quickly. As somebody that didn't have mastery over his sniper rifle, it was a long chore to whittle down this opponent.

As I sat there, spent from an intense war, I heard a little achievement unlocked sound go off in my head. Of course I didn't see one on the TV, but I know what I did. I was Commander Shepard, Colossus Killer. I was satisfied. All of that work and time just to add one more sniper kill on to my belt, and I'm not even sure it counted towards the achievement.

Alternatively, I tried to apply this idea with the sand worms and an assault rifle. Forgetting that they only appear in terrain with no cover, I died in 5 minutes. Apparently, the Mako has a habit of rolling that I didn't count on. It really was quite an interference to my using it as cover.

I would unfortunately have to wait for Mass Effect 2 to quell that worm killing itch.



The two examples above are creatures that I overcame with hard work and determination. I patted myself on the back and went forward. Everything else felt hollow in comparison, but it felt good to face a threat that actually moved around threatening me.

It brought me back to my true nemesis. Emerald Weapon.

Final Fantasy VII came out when I was in junior high. Sitting in my PS2 is a memory card with my original file. I've had other saves, but that one means the most to me. Throughout the years I would dive back in to that world and grind for no other reason than to destroy the green giant. I know there are simple ways to burn through him with mimic and reprisal materia, but I've always felt compelled to beat him in my own way. The way of the straight grind.

It really relies on a simple limitation system. I want a level 90 team to steam roll over this guy and I will grind it out until I can. Sadly, I still haven't reached that point. With 100+ hours invested in straight power grinding, I still can't do it. It is as if I want to believe that my idea of simply putting the time in to buff my party out will work on him. I know I can do better and I've got plenty of ideas on how to do it, but they aren't the ones I originally dreamed of when I was first burning through this.

I want to hit him so hard with my simple materia strategy, that it makes the years spent building my company up worth it.



I had really only started thinking about these guys recently. They are a world of trouble, and they have little to do with the end result. I kept going back and challenging enemies, that weren't overly challenging. Instead of taking the easier ways out, I wanted to recreate David and Goliath.

These were little goals that I made up to create an enemy far stronger than it truly is. The weight of their strength is truly based on me. I could always attack the beast in Nier when I gained more experience. Likewise, I could blow a Geth Colossus away in a fraction of the time with my Mako. However, it wouldn't feel nearly as satisfactory.

To take on a hoard of Krogan means nothing once you've stood toe to toe with a tank. Fighting the entirety of the Northern Crater is a breeze compared to one simple battle with an Emerald Weapon. Thus, in simply restricting myself I've enhanced the difficulties that I experienced.

It isn't always the game that pits me up against an impossible foe. Sometimes, I'm the one to do it.








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45 comments | showing # 1 to 45
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Wrenchfarm's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/26/2011 21:40
Wrenchfarm
Ah the good old bonus boss. That one enemy tucked away in the middle of nowhere who is much more powerful than any of the bosses encountered in the actual game. Gaxkain the reverant in DA:O was the last one I can remember beating. A wizard in a clapboard shack that made the Archdemon look easy.

Valkyrie Profile had the Seraphic Gate bonus area after you beat the game. Random encounters in that area were more difficult than anything in the game, never mind the insane bosses in there. But on the plus side you got to see more of Lezard Valeth!
Occams electric toothbrush's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/26/2011 22:52
Occams electric toothbrush
The bonus boss is such a hoot. Someone should do a list of their favorite bonus bosses. Well, another list. I nice trip down memory lane. Oh, and it took me 3 years but I beat the Ruby weapon. After I beat it I tea bagged my memory card. In my defense, it was a combination of me being drunk and euphoria.

Yes. That's a good defense, right?
manasteel88's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/26/2011 23:23
manasteel88
@Wrench Farm
I've been on the fence about DA:O because I'd have to get the PS3/360 ultimate edition of a game that was made for the PC. Pair this with the fact that I'm not even sure if its going to be in my style. I need to get it eventually. As for VC, that game slows me down with its chapter style storytelling. It is a FANTASTIC game with some well thought out battles, but I tackle it so slowly compared to the isometric ones.

I really like the idea of the optional powerhouse. It's as if the developers want you to know that they balanced their product by showing you what they could really put in the game as a challenge.

There are 3 styles of these guys that I tried to get across in this post. The random little guy that sucks to fight against (Nier), the big bad ass that you know will mess you up (Emerald Weapon), and that thing you go way out of your way to make harder on yourself (Geth Tank). I think all of us have our own stories of triumph and adversity against these guys.

@Occams
Somebody should make a list as I'm tapped on this well right now. The only other thing I could think of was Tonberry King, but that was mostly just the fact that I had to kill 20 Tonberry's to reach him. So that really relies on dungeon diving dissatisfaction.

I'm really curious how you took down Ruby Weapon. I know there are 3 or 4 common tricks, but most people have a system that carried them through the battle. Course you were also happy drunk so that should be quite a tale.

Also, my PS1 memory card is a LE Lara Croft one so I laughed a little too hard with the concept of teabagging a memory card.

Sir Legendhead's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 04:26
Sir Legendhead
so many faps.

Yeah. My favorite boss was Goro. Reminded me of my dad.
KingSigy's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 08:24
KingSigy
I see what you're talking about, but RPG's have never done it for me. When you get really frustrated, you can just grind and then suddenly the game is too easy. I never liked that.
Elsa's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 11:29
Elsa
LOL! Those "bonus bosses" are such incredible fun.... and so very satisfying when you do manage to kill them, especially when using a class not best designed for it! Awesome musing!
manasteel88's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 12:37
manasteel88
@Legend
Goro from Mortal Kombat? I loved Goro. He looked so cool with the way they designed the game so that they used real life people. Then came this 4 armed monstrosity that looked so damn cool!

@King Sigy
That's kinda why I threw in Mass Effect, as there isn't a whole lot of grinding you can do to make you take on a tank. I also don't think this is necessarily tied to RPGs, but the way they are structured makes one on one battles a lot easier to notice than say an FPS.

@Elsa
I love this medium for the fact that at any given point in a game, you can limit yourself however you imagine to raise the challenge levels. Man this is a fun hobby to have.
Andrew Kauz's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 12:58
Andrew Kauz
Really nice post, thanks for putting up up for us to read. I had nearly that same experience in Nier -- totally took me by surprise.
CelicaCrazed's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 14:45
CelicaCrazed
Great read! I can't even think of a bonus boss right now....
Kaggen's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/27/2011 16:04
Kaggen
Great musing, I think most of us are guilty of torturing us like this xD And we love every bit of it!
manasteel88's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/28/2011 01:03
manasteel88
@Kauza
Thanks. It took me forever to think up a title and how to relate the post to it. Originally it started as "That F@#$ing Guy" and it slowly progressed into this. Still not truly happy, but I'm not going to sit on a post for a few days to think up a title.

@Celica
I can't either. I'm defaulting back to the Omega Weapons of the world and being underpowered and facing the tournament in Dragon Quest 4. That last one isn't really a good one, it mostly stems from the fact that I'm playing Dragon Quest 4 right now.

@Kaggen
Thanks. It really is a sadomasochistic dichotomy we gamers put ourselves through. We go out of our way to frustrate ourselves only to truly love what we have accomplished, even if it in itself is a shallow accomplishment.
Sir Legendhead's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/28/2011 08:54
Sir Legendhead
@ manasteel - Yeah, exactly. I'm not sure but I seem to remember reading that he's playable in the new one. If that's true, it would be enough to make me want a copy. I always have wanted to see him draw and quarter somebody with his bare hands. :D
tomothy25's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 18:45
tomothy25
Awesome article! Made me think of the optional bosses in the Kingdom Hearts games. I STILL haven't managed to beat either incarnation of Sephiroth yet. That bastard.

Love the header image too. Dragon Quest 8 is such a time-sink. I've put 120+ hours into that bloody game and I'm still finding more things to do.
pokota's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 18:56
pokota
"I died and a controller was thrown."

Good line. It's probably a conspiracy to get us to buy more controllers.

What I really, really like in gaming is when I take down an opponent, even they're a common type or a regular boss, well before I'm supposed beat them. That's one of the best feelings I've found in this glorious hobby. I KNOW that a few more levels will make it routine, but that's kind of what drives me.

It's also why I love open world titles. Beating the first boss in Borderlands before I'm given the mission to kill him, for example, or taking on Super Mutants or Death Claws in Fallout3/FalloutNV while underleveled; even if I die over and over, I often still keep trying, even though the rewards are nothing special.

Dragon Age: Origins also had the dragon at the top of the mountain. When he ate my face in our first encounter, I knew I had to beat him before I leveled past him, or the thrill would be gone.

There really is nothing like beating an opponent you aren't yet supposed to beat.
Zarwid Thwic's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:07
Zarwid Thwic
The Wicked Gawd in Baten Kaitos Origins was the first thing that came to my mind. I'll give anyone props if they beat that they under leveled without the Bomb Card.
Stephen Beirne's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:10
Stephen Beirne
A mighty fine article you got here! I can think of a few examples of such a thing, like the Monster Hunter monster you can fight in Peace Walker. It took a team up of my brothers and myself, and a good half hour, to finally best that sonuvabitch. One of my fondest memories of that game.
Beatdevil's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:10
Beatdevil
Someone's gotta say it: Culex from Mario RPG. Guy was naaaasty.
salamagogo's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:15
salamagogo
i really must play nier....anyone have any input on either console version being better than the other?
32BitSin's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:23
32BitSin
There were a few bonus bosses in Kingdom Hearts 1. Like Sephiroth at the Colosseum level. I loved fighting him and kicking his ass after dying over and over again like 50 times. Good times.
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:25
fulldamage
Word. Sometimes it's not about the challenges of the game as it is - it's the challenges of the game that you MAKE UP IN YOUR HEAD, that really make it worth playing.

I often find myself doing that thing that roleplayers do - picking abilities and skill trees based on how I feel that character should act and the decisions they would make, rather than what is actually the optimal way to juke the system. It makes things harder, but that's just how I roll.
Butternine's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:26
Butternine
Great article! Secret bosses are probably one of my favorite things in an already good RPG. They give a game something to work for since there's usually nothing to do after level 50 or so.

Omega Mark XII is another good example. And pretty much any secret boss (or even regular enemies in item worlds and whatnot) from just about any Nippon Ichi tactical RPG game. :)
Hohojirozame's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:27
Hohojirozame
Awesome, i find myself doing the same things in certain games, even a game like RDR was a lot more fun when limits were added. A few bonus bosses that come to mind...Yiazmat from 12 and Sephiroth from KH2.
Hohojirozame's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:29
Hohojirozame
@32BitSin fighting him at low levels was the best for me! Getting one shotted after a bunch of whittling was teh funnest!
Puppy Licks's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 19:44
Puppy Licks
Awesome post,
I live for those extra credit boss battles too.

The giant worm and giant moth in Lost Planet stand out for me, they were hard as hell to beat and completely optional as well, but of you did decide to hunt them down you scored a sweet 50GS for each one.
BestyHammar's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 20:14
BestyHammar
I still remember the WarMech from the original Final Fantasy. The odds were something close to 1 in 50 that you would even encounter it! But it would kick your ass if you did. And only on that tiny bridge too.
manasteel88's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 20:27
manasteel88
@Sir Legendhead


while its not quite confirmation until I play the game, this does look like character art from the new MK

@Tomothy @32BitSin
I kept thinking about Sephiroth in the scheme of VII that I forgot about his inclusion in Kingdom Hearts.

@Pokota
That would explain why the controllers cost as much as a game nowadays.

@Zarwid
I'm going to have to find a copy of BK:O. I only own the original and it is one of the better games on the GameCube.

@Byronic
I need a PSP. It sounds like Peace Walker really did some pretty damn cool things for "just a handheld game."

@Beat Devil


Agreed!

@Salamgogo
Most people really only brought the differences between the eastern and western versions to light. Which usually means that there is hardly any real difference. Pick whichever controller feels better for action games and use that one. I've got it for the 360 and I have no issues with it.

@FullDamage
I just started playing Jade Empire and I'm doing exactly that with Lu. Changing his stats and his abilities to match his design to a T instead of putting it towards his strengths.

@Butternine
I really do need to go deeper in to FFXII. I just couldn't get past Vaan, but now that I've realized he is actually just a blank drone for you to watch everyone elses lives unfold, I think I can play further in to the story.

@Puppy Licks
I remember dying over and over in Lost Planet trying to get those. In fact, I don't think I've gotten past the stage with the Giant Worms because I refuse to beat it without defeating them.

I really want to start playing LP again. I think I'll go do that.

@BestyHammar

I think we can all agree that Warmech takes the cake. Not even Superman could defeat that bastard.

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/user/1/18458-189249-supermanRPGjpg-noscale.jpg
manasteel88's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 20:31
manasteel88
blah...

LawofThermalDynamics's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 21:10
LawofThermalDynamics
Don't know why it took me so long to read this. Great job and congrats on the promotion!
Excel-2011's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 21:45
Excel-2011
Elizabeth.
Rabite's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 21:56
Rabite
Warmech in FF1
Iron Giant in FF2
Pink Puffs and the Mystical Weapon guardians in FF4
Omega and Shinryu in FF5
Quite a few enemies in FF6

Metal Slime family in DW/DQ series
elasticman's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 21:56
elasticman
@wrenchfarm -

I thought of Gaxkang from DA:O as well - no room for manoeuvring or mistakes in that tiny little shack. All the revenants have potential to be hellishly difficult in fact, depending on when you face them - there's one in a random encounter in Denerim that can't be returned to at a later level, so has to be beaten there and then. I always seem to bump into him a couple of levels too low...
pokota's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 22:03
pokota
@BestyHammar

Oh, damn, does that bring back memories. Nuke and it's all over.
Snow Squall's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 22:22
Snow Squall
Sooo many RPG optional bosses that I've loved to list. Some are already mentioned here, like Erde Kaiser (sigma), Culex, etc.

One of the more recent ones I enjoyed felling was Yiazmat in FFXII. That was a long battle well worth it, gotta say, I loved getting Mont-Blanc's approval :D
Fear No Darkness's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/29/2011 22:27
Fear No Darkness
Gaxkang is a great recent example I fought him over and over just for the fun of it.
I know he's a main boss, but in terms of making yourself suffer and not backing down I was only a lvl 26 Mage when I beat the Harvester on Hard and that was a bitch. At one point I almost gave up and asked a buddy how he did it and he said he was lvl 35 when he rolled over him so I became even MORE determined to do it at my level.
Some of the "Monster Hunting" in Final Fantasy 12 was ridiculous. The White Flan, the white Chocobo and the Dragon with the Halo in the desert were all awful.
Tiredman's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 00:24
Tiredman
Ruby weapon, I did that with just cloud. Regen, fire absorb, mimic, all attack, and omnislash. Phoenix is good just in case, but not needed. Cast regen asap, attack like normal, use omnislash, mimic it, recast regen when needed and stay alive till omnislash comes back up. Keep at it.

I beat Ruby weapon that way, and when I finally beat him, my game stayed in the fight, wouldnt give me the xp, the items, I had to run from the fight to get it to end. That made me happy on the win, but sad on the fight not ending.

Hardest optional boss I know of is Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga. You play through part 1 a second time using a new game plus, and when you get towards the end, you are able to take on the main guy from Nocturne. You go into the fight with any negate skills equipped, he kills you in one hit. You have to be able to be hit by status ailments. You have to learn how his two partners work spells cast, and so on. You have to survive a fight ending move by having people fall asleep and having a special skill equipped that makes you immune to damage while asleep.

There are tons and tons of strats on beating this guy, and none of them are sure fire wins. You will die many many times. You will think you have him, then you will make a simple mistake, that you think you are going to survive, until your best healer gets muted. Good times.

I am also a fan of Gilgamesh in final fantasy 12. I have always been a gilgamesh fan since his earliest appearances in the ff's.

I love optional bosses. That and optional dungeons are my favorite bonuses in rpg's.
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 04:12
Wedge
Yeeeeeah, I beat Emerald Weapon the legit way back whenever ago. That max level save file is still sitting on a memory card or two somewhere.
Mildudon's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 05:45
Mildudon
The buttom pic, were is it from.
Stevil's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 07:06
Stevil
I've been out of action with birthday related stuff, so I've missed out on this! Anyway, great read!

Emerald Weapon reminds me of my brother desperately (and repetitively) fighting that thing in 30 minutes and how everybody I knew who owned the game were trading theories and battle plans. Of course, this was before the internet, so all we had to go on was vague ideas. I don't think anybody truly knew you had to get a certain item to breathe underwater or figure out exact sequence of attacks.

I've always liked a boss that got people talking outside school, but nowadays, you just go to GameFAQs or whatever and that kind of communal talk has turned into forum board gossip.

Tell you what's a great game for optional bosses though - Wild ARMs 3. Half of the games battles were made up of secret that had to be fought to level up sufficiently. Every area you explored had to be re-explored to find a new boss that had taken up home after your original onslaught. These things didn't mess around either. They were more fun, frustrating and interesting than any of the storyline bosses. There was even a dungeon dedictaed to these things!
Fortune P Dawg's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 07:16
Fortune P Dawg
I was always a big fan of the Wrexsoul fight in FFVI. Cyan's tale is so tragic up to that point it makes one feel good to lay an un-holy smackdown on the manifestation of his demons.

I fucking love that game.
Fenrir151's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 08:47
Fenrir151
This is the reason why I don't get the argument that games are being dumbed down and have become too easy. Gamers can make it difficult for themselves (and often have a lot of fun doing it) by imposing their own limitations on the way they play a game. The no sphere grid playthrough on FFX, for example, is a brilliant way to increase the difficulty of a game. As mentioned in this article, you can also go out of your way to find the hidden bosses that are often put into games to give people more of a challenge(I think tales of vesperia has a few hidden bosses that can be quite a challenge). All too often these days I hear 'hardcore' gamers complain that games are made too easy for 'teh newbs'. I shall direct them to articles like this and tell them to find their own way of making a game harder.
Gilthalas's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 10:25
Gilthalas
Nice musing. Some of the mini bosses I thought of were from the Golden Sun games. I've played through all of them so many times and for me, some of the sub-bosses are much more satisfying than defeating the final boss at the end game.
manasteel88's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 11:12
manasteel88
@mildudon
Persona 2

@stevil
I was just screwing around reexploring everywhere when I came across underwater. If I ever beat him with it, im going to restart the battle without it

@fenrir
I will say that some games have gotten easier, but people that go out of there way to complain need to sit back and figure out what they want out of the game. Then they need to change the way they play. Find the new Mario to be too easy? Play without powerups. Thee are things players do to make games easier like the konami code. There should be a counter concept to that as well.
lewness's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 11:13
lewness
Motherfucking Yiazmat (FFXII), goddamnit!!!!
Tiredman's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 15:07
Tiredman
I did emerald weapon without the underwater materia as I never knew it existed. If I remember correctly, you have a 20 minute time limit to beat him without it. I tried multiple times, and the day I finally beat him, had my mom and my best friend watching me go at it the entire time, as I was like 16 back then. I beat him with like a minute and a half left, but I was out of phoenix charges, and was afraid he was going to kill me, until he left the field and victory was mine.

As for players imposing their own challenges on themselves, I am not a huge fan of that. I like to explore, I like to lv up, I like to gear myself up. When I am done doing the normal stuff in a game like that, I want something to challenge my new found power. Keeping old gear on just to make later area's harder isn't the way I want to make a game harder. If more games would add optional area's, optional, super hard bosses, and then advertise that stuff, I would likely buy the game just on that hype alone.
KLINE's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2011 16:05
KLINE
Love these tough challenging boss/boss types ... Very satisfying when you finally conquer them. Ruby Weapon, Emerald Weapon, etc and feel so satisfied afterward which is funny because it's pretty meaningless in reality but as a gamer you love it.

I remember Xenogears giving me some really challenging battles where I was on the brink of losing for long periods of the battle and sitting on the edge of my couch trying to pull out the victory. Demon's Souls is good at pulling this off throughout the game as well, there are lots of fights where you are at a disadvantage and have to figure out a way to outsmart or wear down the enemy.

Nice write up btw.
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