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Welcome, wanderer.

I am old beyond time.
(Not actually true, but I'm 35, so I ain't young. I still get carded every single time I go to the liquor store or buy cigarettes, and they always make a big deal about it when they read my birthdate off the ID, so I guess that's good.)

I am omnipresent.
(Okay, not true either. But I've lived in a lot of places. Currently adjusting to living in a smaller town after coming from a huge one.)

I have watched your kind over the years, learning.
(Well, I can be a little antisocial; I'm an introvert. Social situations exhaust me. But I'm actually pretty friendly and have learned, with painstaking practice, to hold up my end of a conversation.)

I have watched you evolve.
(I like all sorts of games. I have some over-analytical tendencies, and when no one's looking, you might actually catch me playing with a notebook and pen at my side, taking notes. I love to see games do new things, create new systems and new ways of playing. Games like Catherine, Journey, or Child of Eden - or even little indie strangenesses like Passage and One Chance - always get my imagination fired up.)

I have participated in your rituals.
(Music - Electronica, darkwave, ambient, 80s, chillout, punk, rock, conscious hip-hop, some folk and indie. See last.fm for things I tend to listen to; the profile's out of date, and of course doesn't account for any non-digital music I own.)

I have absorbed your literature.
(Books - Stephen R. Donaldson, Michael Moorcock, Gene Wolfe, Warren Ellis, Stephen King, Chuck Palaniuk, Hunter Thompson, Richard Morgan, Neal Stephenson, William Gibson, Lovecraft, Haruki Murakami, Jeff Lindsay, Mervyn Peake, Borges, Harlan Ellison, Emma Bull, Neil Gaiman, Orson Scott Card, Banana Yoshimoto, bros Hernandez, Nancy Collins, Jessica Abel, Brian Wood, Mary Roach, Mary Karr, Jane McGonigal - and many more.)

I have aided your heroes.
(Fondly remembered games - Final Fantasy series and FFT, Persona series, SMT and DDS, Portal, Bioshock, Batman Arkham Asylum, Fallout, Silent Hill, Valkyria Chronicles, Culdcept, Baroque, Katamari Damacy, Odin Sphere, The Red Star, Rez, The Longest Journey and Dreamfall, Soul Calibur, Panzer Dragoon, Oblivion, Planescape Torment, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Civilization, Limbo, Puzzle Quest, Demon's Souls, Okami, Parappa the Rapper, any and all co-op beat 'em ups, PixelJunk Monsters, and I'm probably forgetting tons worthy of mention).

I have chosen you to hear my words and bear them to all who will listen.
(Kind of!)

Welcome, wanderer. Make yourself at home.
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Nothing is sacred: Character stats
fulldamage | 3:10 AM on 10.28.2009 12 comments



Encounter!

Fulldamage
STR 10
DEX 13
INT 11
WIS 9
CHA 8
CON 12
LCK 8

I love building RPG characters.

Hell, I'm one of those people who can take 20 - 30 minutes pondering my character name, before I even get to my initial stat arrangement. But figuring out whether to spec for speed or strength, wizardry or armor, stealth or personality - it's seriously a buzz to me. I'm not even a min-maxer -- I just need to get the character so that it matches the picture and/or origin story I've got in my head. For my imaginary character. Because I'm crazy in my brain.

But what's even crazier is how many of you immediately understand what you're looking at when you see a list like the one above -- and not because of tabletop games, where character attributes were born. You recognize what these stats are because they are in so damn many video games that it is almost impossible not to have encountered this type of system before. Because any time you slap the bullet point "RPG Elements" onto a game description, then suckers like me will give even the snooziest game a second glance. And this is why we need to move past them - not just for hopeless RPG addicts like myself, forsaken and damned beyond all hope of redemption or normal conversations. But for everyone, because we can do better.



Problem #1: The stepchild stats - Personality and Luck
How many times have you gone to a forum, looked up some information while thinking about a character build, and heard people saying the same things -- "Charisma is useless. With (x) spell or (y) amulet you can get anything you need from any conversation in the game. Luck doesn't do anything." Whether you're playing an action-RPG, an FPS-RPG, a straight up dungeon crawler, whatever it is, people are saying these things about that game right now. Sometimes they are dead-on correct, and sometimes they just don't understand the game system as well as they could (understandable, given that the actual mechanics in these games are often hidden way down in the basement, like adopted children after the social services worker leaves).

We don't need to get into all that, but the amount of conversation about it indicates that it is, in fact, an issue. This is because, for a beginning player, these types of stats represent a gamble. In nearly all games of this type, you absolutely can get to the end by hitting, shooting, or magicking opponents, and avoiding their attacks. Why, then, gamble on values like your personality or your luck, when it's not clear at the start how and when these things will help you? And when your choice guarantees that you will get hit harder and dodge less? And yet we keep seeing them, over and over. Wisdom is lucky enough to have clerical magic or spell resistance attached to it, otherwise it'd be in the basement with the other kids.



Problem #2: They limit what we can experience
I'm totally going to quote myself: "In nearly all games of this type, you absolutely can get to the end by hitting, shooting, or magicking opponents, and avoiding their attacks." Why? Because your character is valued by strength, agility, and magical ability. And because 9 times out of 10 you're playing a juvenile power fantasy about dominating your opponents and saving the world.

Understand, I'm not complaining about these types of games -- I play them, I love them. But you can see how sort of closed-off this cycle becomes. Why have we let Steve Jackson and Gary Gygax tell us that those values up there are, for all time, the way by which we rate game characters? Why are THOSE stats the only stats we really use?

Think about all of the other things that go into making up a real person. I know there's way more to you than the amount you can bench press, or how long you can jump rope, or how many books you've read. Why isn't Memory a stat? It's a very real aspect of you, it differs from person to person, and it governs how long you can retain skills, how many skills you can retain, how you react to the world around you because of your recollection of past events. What about Attention Span? Some people are really focused and can get very expert at what they work on, but suffer in other areas because of that focus. Some people seem to have no focus, but are in fact really excellent multitaskers and can do more things at once... they have "more menus open" at a time than your average person. What about balance? Some people would argue that balance is far more important than strength or speed when it comes winning a fight. Or there's creativity, which can let you see solutions and opportunities that no one else can see.

Now you can stretch the definition of any of our established stats to cover some of those situations. But I'm not criticizing the system for being bad - just overused. Take a moment to imagine a game where your character was defined by their growth in Memory, Focus, Balance, and Creativity. If you were to put that on a marketing bullet point, it would get my attention just as surely as "RPG Elements." Because it describes a type of character that I've never played before, a different type of experience. What else do you think could be used as a stat?



Problem #3: Marching in straight lines
So you have attribute points. And you want more points, because more points is better. And the more points you have, the more powerful you are, and the more points you can get, and so on and so forth. All very standard, easy to work with, makes sense on paper.

But people don't really work like that. You don't just get better and better at everything forever. Sometimes you stop working out in order to focus on class, and you get smarter but lose some tone. Sometimes you're good at martial arts, and then you quit training and get into music, and you develop a good ear but lose some of your reaction time. Sometimes you're good at drinking, and then all of a sudden you're that dude that keeps taking off his pants at parties and never remembers meeting you. Whatever, my point is, people change and develop in different directions, and it's not always straightforward.

Action<----------+---->Cleverness
Morality<-------+------->Sympathy
Practicality<-------------+->Inspiration
Bulk<----+---------->Flexibility

What if you had sliders, instead of raw points? In this type of system, you couldn't "accumulate" points, there is only a finite number to go around. But suppose your actions in the game caused those sliders to be in constant movement, adapting to the way you play the game. Suppose that you could unlock new skills and abilities based on the positions of those sliders in relation to each other? (Achieve High Cleverness, Medium Flexibility, and Neutral Morality to acquire "Steal", for example). Or what if you got new skills, HP or abilities based on how far you move a certain slider, to reward your changing potential.

That's just one possibility. I'm going to skip the other ones I thought of, because they involve graphs, and this is a wall of text already. My point is simply that there must be other ways to express character growth, and the more we explore them, the more we stand a chance of discovering new ideas and new types of gameplay. And I think we're all in favor of that!



In closing: RPG Stats, I'm really happy for you. And I'ma let you finish. But there's more out there waiting to be discovered, and we're going to have to learn to change up the game if we want to see it.



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11 comments | showing # 1 to 11
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Jon B's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 04:39
Jon B
"But suppose your actions in the game caused those sliders to be in constant movement, adapting to the way you play the game."

All the way through that article, I was thinking about writing that in the comments as soon as "RPG stats" was mentioned. But I guess you beat me to it.

Nice article, I would comment further but I'm more of a brainless "hit things till they die" person in RPGs without much attention drawn to a good build.
Andrew Kauz's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 09:44
Andrew Kauz
This is a really nicely written post. I hope you keep contributing to the community here.

I do really like seeing stats rise, but I feel like it would be a lot better to have them allocated automatically based on how you're playing. Oblivion did this, but perhaps not all that well. I remember it being incredibly difficult being a stealth bow user, as your skill just didn't go up enough because you were killing people in so few hits.

Mostly, I just want to see more risks taken. If that means changing up stats, I'm OK with that, but they had better make it good.
BulletMagnet's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 09:47
BulletMagnet
Lots of good RPG-themed articles this month.
Wintersocks's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 11:53
Wintersocks
Man I always go for charisma and persuasion skills. Then illusion magic and mercantilism, followed by marksmanship and destruction spells. I usuall equip my character with various items to enhance his actual fighting abilities, if I ever need those.
Freefall's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 12:02
Freefall
Great Idea. It does annoy me that in 90% of RPG's, you must have a decent combat ability to finish said game.

Fallout 2 and Planescape do it right.
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 12:26
fulldamage
@Jon B: Ha, I don't know if I pay attention to "good builds" either, exactly, but I do enjoy the process. I figure, on a slider system, there's nothing to "max" exactly, so it might discourage points-mongering.

@kauza Thanks! Destructoid is a fun community and I will try to post more when work isn't kicking my butt. Yeah, I liked Oblivion's system fairly well - it certainly wasn't perfect, but I think it WAS good for players who don't want to spend a bunch of time pondering their stats.

@BulletMagnet: I know! I'm gonna go through all the other Musings posts today.

@Wintersocks: Jeez mercantilism. It's like, by the time you put enough into that to see it pay off, you'll have more money than you need anyway. That said, I have an Oblivion character who specced for exactly those things. I want to see if I can get his personality high enough to open up conversation with bad guys. Why would I do this? No idea really. ^_^

Freefall: Sadly I haven't yet played Fallout 2, I really should. And agreed on Planescape -- although I found that I suffered a little near the endgame because my build was balanced, instead of emphasizing stealth or any attacks. It's been a while, but I remember running from a lot of shadow creatures near the end...
Wintersocks's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 12:50
Wintersocks
@fulldamage

But you have to admit how useful it is in the beginning. If you do invest in illusion enough you will almost never have to fight, which was sweet for me cause I never liked the combat system.

In my last Oblivion playthrough I finished the game fighting only fighting undead (which I think you need conjuration to change onto your side), which were quickly dispatched by various enhanced arrows (the potions used on said arrows cost me almost nothing due to my high mercantilism skill.)
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 13:10
fulldamage
@Wintersocks Ha, my favorite character in that game was at 100% spell absorb and something like 67% damage reflection since last I played. Given that I spent all this time making her practically invulnerable, maybe I* didn't like the combat either, now that I think about it!
Wintersocks's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 13:21
Wintersocks
@fulldamage

Spell absorb was one of those things I just ignored when making my character.

On most other RPGs I just play some sort of overpowered magic centered battle mage.
Joseph Leray's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 14:18
Joseph Leray
"But suppose your actions in the game caused those sliders to be in constant movement, adapting to the way you play the game."

Final Fantasy II did this, kind of, but people hated it.
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 14:45
fulldamage
@Joseph Leray
FF2 is the only one I haven't taken a stab at. I remember something about the issues with it though -- that overusing one stat would gimp another stat, if I remember right? And if you're in a long dungeon, you're stuck fighting and getting hit, so you're stuck (for example) getting dumber and dumber.

I can see how that would be hatable. The trick is to figure out a way of balancing your system so that a character is never in desperate need of a stat that they are not encouraged to build -- hence, gimped.
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