For some reason there is this bizarrely popular misconception that something is either a "product" or "art", as if one invalidates the other. Games, like virtually every single form of artistic expression, can be "art" as well as "products".
A) You shouldn't say 'Mass Effect fans' because not everyone is bat-shit crazy.
B) The only thing worse than people who think they are owed a happy ending are
C) People who think games should be taken as art instead of just shutting the fuck and enjoying them.
Peace. I'm out.
*drops mic on the floor and walks off*
B) The only thing worse than people who think they are owed a happy ending are
C) People who think games should be taken as art instead of just shutting the fuck and enjoying them.
Peace. I'm out.
*drops mic on the floor and walks off*
@CaimDark: How do you define "art" and how do you define "product"? To make one grossly oversimplified point, art is made for the artist, whereas a product is made for the consumer. That we enjoy art is a byproduct of the artist's expression, as is anything the producers of a product receive from the creation of such an object.
@dredgman: It's great that you put some decent thought into this. However, I have two points to make about the piece as a whole:
1. Really needs a better layout. I found the piece as a whole quite taxing on the eyes and the spacing is sclerotic.
2. I think people really need to address what seems to be the main criticism of a lot of ME fans, which is that they didn't get the ending they were promised. There are a lot of good rebuttals to that, but I haven't seen many people raise them yet.
@dredgman: It's great that you put some decent thought into this. However, I have two points to make about the piece as a whole:
1. Really needs a better layout. I found the piece as a whole quite taxing on the eyes and the spacing is sclerotic.
2. I think people really need to address what seems to be the main criticism of a lot of ME fans, which is that they didn't get the ending they were promised. There are a lot of good rebuttals to that, but I haven't seen many people raise them yet.
@Caliban
If that's how you define art, anything made with the intent of selling to consumers isn't art. By that definition, games, films, books, music, and even many paintings and sculptures, none of that is art. Then what's left?
If that's how you define art, anything made with the intent of selling to consumers isn't art. By that definition, games, films, books, music, and even many paintings and sculptures, none of that is art. Then what's left?
I didn't finish reading because getting as far as I did, frankly, was hard enough with your improper use of the enter key.
I'll just say games are art, no debate. It's fact. Movies, books, TV, drawings/paintings are art, but not games? I'm sure there were a few pretentious twits way back in the day who said movies weren't art because they moved. Or even books, especially those that don't contain any pictures whatsoever... are these not art because they're just simply words on paper?
Games are art. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
But that doesn't mean I take them super seriously. I don't raise my monocle at every minuet detail about the game I'm playing and say "Hmm.. yes. Yes. Indeed." or "Whababohgoho! I do say! What a load of bullocks this is!". I still "enjoy" them. Even on a juvenile level at times when it comes to games like GTA or Saints Row.
How are the intricately crafted streets, physics and story in GTAIV not art?
How is the uber deep lore of games like Halo, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, etc. not art?
Do I need to even mention the recently released Journey?
The whole "products" thing can be applied to any other art form, so there's no going to that for an argument and I can't think of really any other argument against "Games are Art". I would certainly love to hear one.
I'll just say games are art, no debate. It's fact. Movies, books, TV, drawings/paintings are art, but not games? I'm sure there were a few pretentious twits way back in the day who said movies weren't art because they moved. Or even books, especially those that don't contain any pictures whatsoever... are these not art because they're just simply words on paper?
Games are art. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
But that doesn't mean I take them super seriously. I don't raise my monocle at every minuet detail about the game I'm playing and say "Hmm.. yes. Yes. Indeed." or "Whababohgoho! I do say! What a load of bullocks this is!". I still "enjoy" them. Even on a juvenile level at times when it comes to games like GTA or Saints Row.
How are the intricately crafted streets, physics and story in GTAIV not art?
How is the uber deep lore of games like Halo, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, etc. not art?
Do I need to even mention the recently released Journey?
The whole "products" thing can be applied to any other art form, so there's no going to that for an argument and I can't think of really any other argument against "Games are Art". I would certainly love to hear one.
@SeymourDuncan17: I copy/pasted this from the print version, which does need all those paragraph breaks. I should have checked what it looked like.
@CaimDark: You can still sell art, but I think the biggest difference is whether the artist made it for himself or the manufacturer made it for the consumer.
@Caliban: Thanks. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the fans were actually "promised" anything. Personally, I love that the indoctrination theory is swirling around and may or may not be true. It's got people talking, and that's more that can be said about a lot of games.
@CaimDark: You can still sell art, but I think the biggest difference is whether the artist made it for himself or the manufacturer made it for the consumer.
@Caliban: Thanks. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the fans were actually "promised" anything. Personally, I love that the indoctrination theory is swirling around and may or may not be true. It's got people talking, and that's more that can be said about a lot of games.
@Kyousuke Nanbu
What a horribly narrow minded comment. It seems you enjoy being quite the contrarian.
What a horribly narrow minded comment. It seems you enjoy being quite the contrarian.
@CaimDark: Perhaps I phrased that wrong. Art comes from a fundamental desire to express something. A product comes from a desire to make money.
In the end, true art doesn't really make a lot of money. Sure, if Shakespeare and Austen were still alive today or if the rights to those works were still held by someone they'd be some of the richest people alive, but those works only got that popular by becoming cultural touchstones.
I wouldn't argue that something making money invalidates it from being art, but when you make something thinking "how can I directly appeal to this audience" you aren't telling your own story. You're telling a story you think other people want to hear.
In the end, true art doesn't really make a lot of money. Sure, if Shakespeare and Austen were still alive today or if the rights to those works were still held by someone they'd be some of the richest people alive, but those works only got that popular by becoming cultural touchstones.
I wouldn't argue that something making money invalidates it from being art, but when you make something thinking "how can I directly appeal to this audience" you aren't telling your own story. You're telling a story you think other people want to hear.
I don't think that the calls for change invalidate the game as art. It is reminiscent to me of Ayn Rand's book "The Fountainhead" in that the argument is more "who owns the art"? Is it the artist who creates the vision, or the consumer who pays for the vision to be created and wants some input or changes to create their own vision?
Is "art" purely an individualistic expression or can it be a collective output. Most games aren't made by one single person - so they are already collectivist in many respects. Does collectivism water down and change the expression of artistic vision, or does the collective minds create a different but still valid expression of art? If so, then does the consumer actually have a right to request that the artistic vision meet their needs.
Rand was an individualist... and the artistic vision of the creator was paramount, but she also spoke to the validity of the collective vision in that it was more inclined to meet the needs of the many. Possibly if a company want to create a profit, they are more inclined towards a collective artistic vision which would certainly allow for changes to be made to the end product.
Personally, I tend to side with Rand and Rourke... that the artist should simply succeed or fail based on their own vision without the collective masses changing it to be more conformist. If the artist fails, they fail... and likely don't sell their work again.
Is "art" purely an individualistic expression or can it be a collective output. Most games aren't made by one single person - so they are already collectivist in many respects. Does collectivism water down and change the expression of artistic vision, or does the collective minds create a different but still valid expression of art? If so, then does the consumer actually have a right to request that the artistic vision meet their needs.
Rand was an individualist... and the artistic vision of the creator was paramount, but she also spoke to the validity of the collective vision in that it was more inclined to meet the needs of the many. Possibly if a company want to create a profit, they are more inclined towards a collective artistic vision which would certainly allow for changes to be made to the end product.
Personally, I tend to side with Rand and Rourke... that the artist should simply succeed or fail based on their own vision without the collective masses changing it to be more conformist. If the artist fails, they fail... and likely don't sell their work again.
@Elsa: But throughout "The Fountainhead" Rand seems to bitterly attack notions of what most consumers want. Think of the Wynand papers, or Ralston Holcombe and his fellow charlatan architects. The Cortlandt housing project is infinitely more suited to its purpose when it is Roark's vision alone, and when Keating's peers add to it, it becomes tacky and inefficient.
Ultimately, I think ironically Rand defends capitalism in the way many people defend Communism: a great idea in theory, but betrayed in practice because of the fundamental flaws of human beings.
Ultimately, I think ironically Rand defends capitalism in the way many people defend Communism: a great idea in theory, but betrayed in practice because of the fundamental flaws of human beings.

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