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1:26 PM on 07.16.2008

Destructoid crashes Safari/ Spam on the Increase

I use a Mac. It has Safari as it's default browser. Sometimes I use it instead of Firefox. But, lately, something has changed. Every time I go to Dtoid, it crashes Safari. Consistently.

Also, I've noticed that there are a lot more spammers getting through the system lately. Almost all of the most recent Cblogs have got it, and some of the front page comments have it.

Fucking retarded.   read

12:12 PM on 07.16.2008

Making sense of E3: Hivemind Impressions

I'm sure this has been done a million time in the past few days. Hell even Penny Arcade has managed to sum it up in a cartoon already:

For the most part I agree wholeheartedly with their assessment.

I'm not sure anyone really "won" this year. I'm wondering if perhaps a lot of the luster is gone from the last few years. Before we were all pumped up for the launches and then all of the new games for the second year (3rd for 360). Thing is, most of those games are out, and we know now how good (or bad) those games were. Seems to me that Sony and MS are scrambling to keep up, whereas Nintendo seems to know exactly where it is going. So, I watched all of the press events and here are my impressions. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong or right.


Image Credit: SF

As I mentioned, the 360 is in it's 3rd year. They've had a lot of exclusives that have been great games, but they seem to have run out at this point, with the exception of Gears 2, Fable 2, and some DLC for Fallout 3 and GTAIV. Pretty much everything else is on both platforms. That being said, despite the "power difference" of 360 vs. PS3, the 360 versions look every bit as good as their PS3 counterparts. The difference being XBL.

MS had a very well rounded demonstration. I say that because the beginning of the conference dealt with the "hardcore" audience. We saw demos of some really cool shit, especially Gears 2 and Fallout 3. Then came the video download stuff. More movies for rent with the addition of NBC/Universal and others, and perhaps more importantly is the collaboration with Netflix.

Then came the other stuff... They put the Wii on my 360... It's not all bad though, just mostly. First we get a new dashboard... What was wrong with the old one? What about people who downloaded themes? Will the old themes be imported or is that money lost forever? Then Mii's... I mean Avatars. They look in between Mii's and Home's avatars. They mention new clothing and what not, which I fully expect them to sell to us (.:rollseyes:.). Some of the interaction is neat though. Not that I'd show you all my vacation photos, but I could. The chat and interactions could be useful for big parties of Dtoiders though. The whole avatar thing just seemed gimmicky and a classless ripoff of Mii's. Not that Mii's are the first 3D avatars there were many 3D PC chat programs before it. The Scene It game, Movie game, and online interactive game shows look like they could actually be fun though, so I'm holding out judgement on them.

Then we get FFXIII on the 360. I could care less. I'm not a big RPG guy anyway. Although, I understand that this is a big deal to a lot of you. Just not me.

Overall, aside from the avatar and Dashboard redesign, MS gave some pretty good stuff.


Image Credit: SF

I'm by far the most disappointed with this presentation. Iwata mentioned during his speech that people expected the Wii to fail and it's done the opposite. I wouldn't say that we expected it to fail, but rather we expected it to fail us. That is, those of us who actually grew up playing games and still do. It had done just that. BUT, what it has done is bring videogames to a new, much larger audience than ever before. The Wii and DS are absolutely insane money makers for Nintendo.

On to the presentation...

They bring out a Soccer mom to tell us her life story and how she hurt herself by going outside and exercising... Aren't we supposed to go outside now and then? I guess not. Then we get to see 1080 Snowboarding with a Wiifit Balance board interface. Not a bad idea actually, except Soccer mom is doing impossible moves without having played it before... They seem to set the bar so low so as not to disappoint anyone or discourage anyone from playing. That is, with the exception of people like us who played 1080 snowboarding so much that they got the silver and gold and crystal guy to race with. You know, people who play games with at least some challenge to them.

Then we get to see a new Wii sports with the MotionPlus attachment. First off, why not update the old one with the ability to move yourself during tennis, or make the putting more accurate (and fun)? Instead we get frisbee, WaveRace, and sword fighting with pencil sharpening? Then we get to see Miyamoto come out and show us Wiimusic. Horrible. Absolutely horrid. It looks like fun for about a week, if that.

The whole time I'm thinking that they're going to pull something out of their ass like MS did with FFXIII, but they didn't. There was no Pikmin, Kid Icarus, Mario, Zelda, Kirby... anything. A new Animal Crossing with some interactive bits to it though. This was a positive thing. The microphone was a good addition as was the online interaction bits. Their online system is still broken though. Wii friend codes suck Nintendo. Get with the times and allow usernames already.

If you can't tell, I was disappointed severely by Nintendo's presentation. Aside from Animal Crossing, I saw nothing that would make me want to turn on my Wii for months more.


Image Credit: Wired
I think over the last year Sony has realized that they were getting their ass kicked by the competition. I think they predicted that a lot of people would defect from the 360 to the PS3 and that didn't happen. MS did a very good job this generation, with the exception of the hardware problems, and Sony is paying for their previous cockiness. That being said, they went almost toe to toe with MS. To counter Gears 2 we saw Resistance 2, which looked really good, though not nearly as complete as Gears 2. Little Big Planet looked really good too, and the use of it for the business part of the presentation was refreshing and fun simultaneously. To keep up with the interactive group entertainment of the Wii and 360 we saw Singstar and Guitar Hero announcements as well as a new Family Friendly packaging of both the PS2 and PSP. Good move by Sony on both parts IMO.

The PSN games and new PSP games had me excited. Fat Princess looked hilarious and fun, and the early reviews indicate that it is. A PSN downloadable Rachet and Clank that looks as good as last years game (likely same engine), but at a 15$ price point. Nice. Gran Turismo TV is something that will interest a few people that are not me, but what it shows is that the PS3 can deliver VOD-type stuff pretty well. Which brings me to the announcement of the Movie store. The prices were in line with the 360 store and the quality likely the same. Similar to the iTunes store though, you could actually buy movies as well as rent them. On top of that, you can download those to your PSP to watch while on the run. Very cool IMO. Leveraging the PSP against MS is a good idea. A very good idea.

Then towards the end we saw the start of a trend that is likely to come to home consoles (or at least the PS3 and 360). That is MMORPGs or MMOs in general. DC Universe is not my thing, but I can see how a lot of people would.

MAG then came up. 256 players in one battlefield. Very cool, but could it have looked any more plain? They should just slap Warhawk 2 on the front and go with it. MAG needs an identity. Any Identity and if it works, it'll be a very cool game.

Overall, Sony's presentation was pretty well rounded and they showed a lot of stuff that I was impressed with. Some of the features with the PSP were really good and the games look pretty damn good.

Totally overall, I think the best presentation was probably MSs. It had everything from new footage of "hardcore" games to new footage of "family/Wii" like features and games. Nintendo just let me down every moment they were talking. Sony, was humble, which was refreshing, and they showed a lot of stuff. Good stuff, but it just wasn't as complete or full as what MS gave us.

tl;dr   read

9:38 AM on 02.29.2008

Ethernet over Power OR How I Overcame floor Spaghetti

Like many of you I have a lot of gaming equipment and computers in a small space. When I lived in a small apartment the distance from my "living area" and my bedroom was usually less than a few feet. Then I moved into something that more resembles a house and with a wife who values things being tidy. Which is why when/if I ever get around to posting my gaming rig it'll look like your Mom's house. Anyway, the eyesore of our townhouse was these two ethernet cables of 50 feet streching from our office/front bedroom across the entryway and living room floor to our television (360 and PS3). Rugs didn't help and many people including myself managed to trip over said cables numerous times putting into jeopardy my TV, consoles, and router. To say the least we needed to changed something.

Figure 1: My floor wasn't this bad, but this is how it looked to the wife.

Normally, you'd get up in the attic and run a CAT5 or CAT6 (ethernet) cable and put a jack in the wall near your router and another near your TV. We have vaulted ceilings and my attempts at climbing in the attic "space" were just not gonna happen. I was not given "authorization" to put holes in the wall/ceiling or to run cables outside and drill holes into the side of the house. Compromise is a tough thing guys, get used to it.

Figure 2: Let me show you my wireless signals.

For the longest time I had been eyeing technologies that would fix my problem: Wireless and ethernet over powerlines. Wireless is great right? You buy two routers and bridge them. I know this works because I've done it with computers before and it can often be cheaper to buy two routers than it is to buy a single router and a wireless card (at least it used to be, I haven't looked in a long time). The problem with wireless is it's throughput speed is limited and it introduces lag since the data is communicated over the air and not through wires. When I was looking it seemed that a wired solution is the best way to go. But, other than laying wires across my floor what could I do?

Figure 3: POWER!

Ethernet over power. No, not power over ethernet that's completely different. Essentially, you plug a box in one room and it has an ethernet jack (RJ-45) and another box is plugged in the room that you want to get the data to/from. The box converts the ethernet signals into signals that it transmits over the power wires within your home. In the past, this technology was really not so great because it often had low throughput speeds (Homeplug 1.0 spec was rated at 8 Mbps) which were not fast enough to stream video. Newer (2.0 spec) equipment is rated for 200 Mbps, however, real life speeds are approximated to be 1/4 of that. Still plenty fast for streaming even HD video and introduce little to no lag/latency.

So, I looked around for this equipment and found some on NewEgg. As is typical for me I spent many many weeks mulling over all of the details and how it would work. The shame of it is, is that very few people have bought Homeplug equipment in the states and that there are only a few manufacturers of this type of equipment. Contrary to the advice of Tazar, I went with the Zyxel equipment. Tazar suggested against Zyxel because as a DSL support super guy he had a horrible time with Zyxel modems and routers. The reason I went with Zyxel for this equipment is because they were Homeplug 2.0 spec and they had a box with 4 ports. The spec is important because there exists a chipset that is faster than Homeplug 1.0 but isn't compatible with 1.0 or 2.0 spec equipment. For the sake of future upgradibility I went with Spec 2.0 equipment. Oddly, Spec 1.0 equipment does not talk to Spec 2.0 equipment but they can coexist on the same powerlines.

So here's what I bought. The Zyxel PLA470 4 port router and the PLA400 ethernet adapter from NewEgg. The total was approximately 160$ with shipping. This is an expensive solution when compared to a cable across the floor, but in the end I'm liking what has happened so far.

Figure 4: The PLA470

Figure 5: The back of the PLA470

Figure 6: The PLA400

Figure 7: The back of the PLA400

Essentially I plugged the PLA410 into the wall near my cable modem and took a wire from it to the router. I then plugged in the PLA470 router into the living room next to the TV and plugged in the 360 and PS3. I turned both the PS3 and 360 on and I was online. That was it. I played Warhawk that night with the PS3 crew and then played Haloz coop with SpiderPig last night without a hitch. I haven't tried streaming video with it, but I imagine it would work fairly well.

BTW, this isn't an endorsement of Zyxel equipment or These are just my findings. There are many other retailers and a few other manufacturers' of Homeplug equipment. YMMV. All Rights Reserved™.   read

2:29 PM on 02.06.2008

Good Idea/Bad Idea: Wednesday Night Warcawks

We playing tonight?

Who's hosting?

Shipero apparently.

Server Name: DTOID_WNW
Server Password (case-sensitive): TOID
Maps: all six (so if you don't have Omega Dawn, you'll be kicked off when we play that map, and you'll have to re-join...or at least that's how I think it works)
Server Time: 7ish until Brooklyn


8:29 AM on 02.04.2008

Amazon Deal of the Day: A good PS3 game w/ Kit? Alternative for pussies.@ AMAZON TODAY

What's this? A guest spot for moi on the Amazon Deals with an actual good game... for the PS3?????

If you own a PS3 and you don't have Warhawk you totally owe it to yourself to pick up Warhawk today at Amazon with the Jabra BT headset for the price you'd pay for the game online without the headset. Is the headset the greatest thing in the world? No. Does it work well? Yes. If you don't have a headset and you don't have Warhawk you really can't go wrong with this deal.

For those of you who need some convincing. Warhawk is a multiplayer 3rd person shooting game where you can control planes, tanks, jeeps, and a variety of anti-aircraft and anti-ground turrets. Weapons include rocket launchers, fame throwa, sniper rifle, machine gun, pistol, land mines, and special binoculars to call in air support. The game is very well balanced and a lot of fun.

Wednesday and Friday Destructoid PS3 folks get together and this is one of the few premiere games which we huddle around. I know I haven't been around so much lately, but I'm thinking of making a come back to WNW this week. I'm feeling the itch to shoot things (Liam2015) in a tank and lay mines everywhere.

If you have a PS3 and you don't want WarHawk, well you're a big fat pussy and you'd probably like this deal instead:

Imagine Babyz is on sale for $29.99 today at Amazon today. Is that really on sale? No. But, if you don't like WarHawk you probably should suffer through this game to pay for your sins.

WWCCPBD?   read

8:46 AM on 01.18.2008

Fake Game Friday est mort! Vive le Fake Game Friday! Assassin's Creed 2?

I've been told Fake Game Friday's have been put on hiatus for a while. I created the following game but since it is a popular culture reference that may lose it's meaning I felt it was necessary to put this out there for all to see ASAP.

In the not too distant future, Tom Cruise takes leadership of Sciontology and uses his power and rocket powered DC-8's to influence all of the world's elite. It is your job as Christian Baletair to destroy Tom Cruise's plans for world domination and restore order and peace. Baletair will have all new weapons and moves at his disposal to stop the evil Cruise. Learn new moves of the Gun Kata as you progress. Gun Kata is a martial art that places emphasis on two tenets: shooting the enemy as efficiently as possible, and avoiding return fire. If Baletair's health becomes dangerously low you can activate a special Psycho Baletair mode where Baletair strips naked and chases innocents with a chainsaw. Baletair can also become freakishly skinny using his Machinist ability and gain the ability to sneak through cracks or small gaps. Also, instead of a noble stead, Baletair can gain access to the Batmobile to barrel his way through Cruise's followers. This is, however, at the sacrifice of the element of surprise.

I had help. D, Riserglen, BlindsideDork, Snaileb, Bahamut, Hoygeit, DVDDesign and Maxvest all had a hand.

BTW, Fake Game Friday still lives on in the forums... Go HERE to submit yours.   read

2:57 PM on 01.09.2008

Good Idea/Bad Idea: Wednesday Night Warcawks

We playing tonight? Who's hosting?

Server Name: DTOID_WNW
Server Password (case-sensitive): TOID
Maps: all six (so if you don't have Omega Dawn, you'll be kicked off when we play that map, and you'll have to re-join...or at least that's how I think it works)
Server Time: 7ish until Brooklyn


11:26 AM on 01.09.2008

Friday Night Fights 24: BAUER POWER

Last Friday saw a lot of people online with a multitude of reports of good times. TheGoldenDonut had a full recap of the 360 festivities, and Rorschach had vacation photos from Halo 3. And, FINALLY, the PS3 crew got their shit together and had a great time as detailed by Y0J1mb0.

It's wednesday and Jack Bauer needs to know what you want to play this Friday. It's a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY. There may or may not be nuclear weapons or nuclear wessels involved.

What do you guys want to see this Friday?
What system will you play it on?
What's your PSN/Gamertag?   read

10:35 AM on 01.09.2008

Appreciation = (Time + Money)/(number of games)

When I was much younger, games cost 1/2 of my entire summer salary (chores paid very little in my house) and because of this games were had at birthdays and Christmas, and very rarely outside of these times. Often, I got my entire years worth of games during Christmas. Having said that, I look back at some of the games I had back then and how much I really enjoyed them and how long I played each one. Often I played every game I had all the way through if not over and over. This really meant playing each game to death and squeezing every penny of joy out of them that I could. You see, back then, I didn't have a choice. I didn't have the money to get every system and every good game that came out. What I had, I enjoyed to the fullest if I could (I'm looking at you Playaction Football).

The reason this all comes up is that I recently remembered one of my favorite games on the SNES: UN Squadron. It was released in 1991 and I was 12. I don't actually remember what made me buy this game since up to this point I had only played a few shoot em ups (SHMUPS) and never actually bought any. That and there was no internet. You found out about games through friends and magazines (Nintendo Power). There must have been a lot of buzz for UN Squadron at its release to get me to buy it, especially since, at the time, I was way more into games like Mario and Zelda on my SNES. This game was top of all 2D shooters on Screw Attack's Top Ten List. So, I scrapped enough money together and bought this game. I played it to death, playing through the game on all difficulties with all three pilots. I even tried to finish the game with every plane (I didn't succeed).


Anyway, this isn't a rant on how good UN Squadron was, or why the SNES is the best system ever. I think that I, to this day, appreciate those games more than I ever will even the best of the current crop of titles. I truly think this is because I was able, neigh, had to spend more time with them.

This brings me to today. This last winter has seen the release of so many truly great titles which have caused many game purchases, which I can now afford for my systems because I have a real paying job and not just chores. The problem lies in the fact that even though I can afford these games, I hardly have the time to play them. This is even more evident over the past few weeks. After only recently getting a 360, I've hardly had the time to play it other than the last few Fridays.

I find myself playing games to finish them rather than actually enjoy them. I don't go back and play my games anymore after I've finished them, and I'm starting to feel as though I'm not getting my money's worth because of it. Back when I was a kid I would have killed to have a lot of games to play over those boring summers when it was too hot to go outside, but now I look back and am happy that I wasn't over spoiled with games since I enjoyed them way more.

How do you guys feel about this?

Do you find yourself playing games for acheivement points rather than actually enjoying the game?

Do you find that you have more games to play and yet little time to play them?

Do you think you enjoyed your games more when you had fewer?   read

12:14 PM on 01.02.2008

Wednesday Night Warcawks 12: Dirty Dozen for the New Year


Wow, this is the twelfth (non)official meeting of Dtoid people on WarHawk on Wednesday. Man that was really specific. You may have heard that I got a 360 recently from Destructoid's resident super cool nice guy Butmac. I stated in that post that this would not prevent me from playing my PS3 and, despite cajoling to the opposite from the likes of DVD, I'm starting by doing WarCawks as usual. Besides we just bought Omega Dawn, we have to play it!

If you've never played Warcawks with us before don't panic. We're friendly (mostly) and we don't bite (hard). So hop in.

As usual, if someone else wants to host who has a fatter pipe than me please say so and I'll be more than willing to let you host. (Anyone?) I think Bronx mentioned he might...?

For tonight's festivities, I will set up a server called "Dtoid_WNW" at approximately 7 pm EST for glorious rounds of dying together. If it is passworded the password will be "toid." If it's not passworded (is that even a word?) we'll just rock out with some random other people.

Let us know if you're up for playing this evening. As always, leave your PSN, favorite fruit, and favorite GI Joe Character
[embed]57672:5446[/embed]   read

12:20 PM on 12.29.2007

A PSWii Owner's Thoughts on His Newly Acquired 360

Well, thanks to Butmac I now have a 360 to go with my PSWii. I guess that puts me into the PSWii60 owners club. The first time ever in my life that I've been able to actually get all of the consoles of whatever generation. I had the NES but not the master system, the SNES but not the Genesis, the N64 and not PS1, the Dreamcast, gamecube and xbox and not the PS2. But now I have them all. The only problem is the time to actually play them. My job is becoming increasingly demanding and there has been a deluge of games to play this fall/winter. I counted them up this morning. I've got about 7 new games now on my shelf that I would like to play and finish as well as at least 4 others that I don't feel I'm finished playing. What a mess. A happy mess, but a mess nonetheless.

Well, I got my refurbed RROD'd 360 from Butmac as you might have read yesterday at about 5 pm. The first thing I noticed was the massive power brick. This thing is actually larger than a standard masonry brick. I can't see how MS could say that this thing is really "smaller" than the PS3 overall. That brick is huge. The PS3 has a built in power supply and it's a little larger because of it.

After I read the directions on how to sync the controller I did that and it just worked. The process is similar on the PS3. It's a little more sketchy to actually sync a Wiimote in my opinion. They just take longer and sometimes they just don't quite sync correctly.

This is when the fun really started... And by fun I mean 2 hours of complete torture. In preparation of receiving my 360 I went ahead and reserved my XBL gamertag (bhive01) on I was told this was a smart thing to do. Not that I really expected anyone to steal my gamertag, but I supposed it was possible nonetheless. In order to actually use your gamertag that hasn't been used before you have to recover it to your console. This wouldn't have been a problem under normal circumstances but the XBL signup servers were being obliterated last night. I tried for 2 hours straight. Each time typing out all the info required and getting further and further each time. Around 8 pm I finally got it to go.

This brings up a HUGE problem I have with the 360 controller. Many others have spoken of this before. The D-pad on the 360 controller is complete shit. I was having to hit it really hard to get it to move around the onscreen keyboard. I made many mistakes because of it. If the process of typing out the names, email, and passwords had been less difficult this would have been less tedious. As it was, it was an awful experience. Once it went though things were great.

Another HUGE problem I had that I don't have on my PS3 or Wii is that my router doesn't like my 360. If I plug in 360 via ethernet (don't have wireless adapter), it fails to get an IP address. This is despite the fact that I can log into my router (Linksys WRT54GL v1.1 w/ DD-WRT v23 SP1) and watch it give the 360 an IP address. Makes absolutely no sense. I did get it to work by plugging the 360 directly into my cable modem. I'll be updating my firmware shortly to see if that makes any difference. I hope it does. I'd hate to have to buy a new router just because my 360 doesn't like my old one... then again gigabit ethernet would be nice.

UPDATE: I updated my firmware to DD-WRT v24 RC6 and it started working. I DMZ'd the IP of the 360 and everything came up roses.

This isn't just a bitchfest though. I'm sorry if it's turned into one. The router/signup server problem was a big S.N.A.F.U. that MS should really look into. If the PS3 and Wii can connect through my router there is no excuse for the 360 to fail at getting an IP address that my router already assigned it. And, having the signup server problem the week after Christmas is inexcusable in my eyes. A lot of people got 360's for Christmas. MS should have been prepared for the onslaught of signups.

To the good stuff? Other than the controller sync being quick and painless as soon as I got past the signup server issues I got signed in and next thing I know Snaileb sent me a message. I then replied. Then we chatted. Easy as hell and super seamless. I was extremely impressed at how easy this whole thing was. I got a 48 h XBL Gold Trial from D our resident Amazon Deal Guy, and it credited my account. I logged out and back in and I was good to go. I bought Bomberman for FNF 22 and poured myself a beer (or 2). It was all easy and seamless.

I then played the initial training mission of CoD4 and by the time I got to the second level I got a Bomberman invite from Snaileb and DVDDesign. I clicked accept and it quit my game of CoD4 and loaded Bomberman. There was one issue though, it didn't load me directly into the game because it had to update Bomberman first. Once it reloaded it didn't take me to the match, and I didn't know where to look for them so I had to message to get another invite. That worked seemlessly too. All around, I think the dashboard and the chatting and IM'ing are excellent. They just work. This is the functionality that the PS3 is missing. The Wii just plain has shitty online. I can see why 360 people complain so much about the online services of PS3 and Wii. They really have it good with XBL.

I have one more complaint. Noise. You guys were right. When this 360 gets going on a game the fans kick in. When I was just in the dashboard I thought to myself, "Wow, this thing is so quiet, I don't know what everyone was complaining about." I soon found out after 3 rounds of Bomberman. The fan kicked in and I roasted some marshmallows and blew dry my hair between rounds. It's truly loud. The PS3 fan isn't exactly quiet, but it doesn't get much louder than it is when you turn it on. The Wii is the same.

So, in summary.

Lots of games
Lots of people to play with (Drunken Bomberman was great, but I ran out of beer)
Easy setup (if the signup server is working)
In game Dashboard/communications
Easy invites and game joins even from other games

Loud when running games.

Catastrophic Failures:
Router problems really hurt
Signup Server issues were really bad
Horrible D-pad   read

9:38 AM on 12.29.2007

5 Reasons Why I Love Butmac


1. Sexy Voice
Have you heard this man talk? No!? How is this possible?

It's not... Click play below and listen.



2. Sexy Video Editing Skills
See above. Totally great editing.

3. We Hooked Up... I mean he hooked me up
That's right. Butmac's 360 RROD'd a while back and he decided he couldn't wait so he went and bought a new arcade and swapped out the parts. Well... then he had a 360 spare after it got repaired. So I bought it off of him for an extremely good price along with his secondary copy of Halo 3 (Yes he had 2). It finally arrived last night and I played my first 360 FNF. My impressions of the 360 and XBL will follow, this is, afterall, a post about Butmac.

4. Gratuitous Spirit
Well, this brings me to what else was included in the box with the 360. When we made the deal we worked out a price for the 360 + power brick. Butmac then threw in a headset, a Christmas message of love and peas, and two other games! He gave me Lego Star Wars II and Prey on top of the already awesome package. Thanks a ton dude. I can't say this enough. I'll be busy playing those games for much time to come. I love me some Lego Star Wars.

5. We Hooked Up*
It was good too. ;)

*May or may not have actually happened. Not valid in FL, NC, RI, and CA. 10˘ refundable deposit in MI.   read

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