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But Lara is not smart, I've never seen Lara do anything remotely smart (what kind of archeologist goes around destroying artifacts?) and so what if her arch-enemies are females? We all know that was made for lesbian sexual tension.
Xena also has "female empowerment", if by that you mean dominatrix-ish females with giants boobs and ass killing dudes (and with the mandatory female arch enemy with giant boobs and ass)...
Well, I can feel how you love her for being the game of you childhood and everything, but for the rest of the world she was pretty much a digital porn actress badly portraying a archeologist...
And she is pretty much tits.
Xena also has "female empowerment", if by that you mean dominatrix-ish females with giants boobs and ass killing dudes (and with the mandatory female arch enemy with giant boobs and ass)...
Well, I can feel how you love her for being the game of you childhood and everything, but for the rest of the world she was pretty much a digital porn actress badly portraying a archeologist...
And she is pretty much tits.
I like how you completely ignored revs entire point on lara that she enjoys murdering anything that gets in her way, and instead ranted on about how shes "smart and a strong female lead."
@NAIM MASTER she only destroys them if they are a threat to the world which most of them are. She is smart ie the puzzles and crap, she knows her shit, she can read a bunch of ancient text.
Obviously you have no idea about female empowerment.
Obviously you have no idea about female empowerment.
@RYU89 I didn't want to go too much into it.
Most of what lara kills is from what attacks her however. The giant kraken ATTACKS lara a number of times before she kills it. So don't gimmie that crap lol.
My rant was more on her not being a role model which she is to thousands of woman.
Most of what lara kills is from what attacks her however. The giant kraken ATTACKS lara a number of times before she kills it. So don't gimmie that crap lol.
My rant was more on her not being a role model which she is to thousands of woman.
I think Laura in the newer games is really well done. When she was a massive sex item back in the mid to late 90's I didn't much care for her.
Ryu89 is right. Lara likes to KILL EVERYTHING. "O hay, its a fascinating new type of species that's in my way! Guess there's no way around it but to KILL IT! PEW PEW PEW."
Also, WHOAMG 10 MINUTE RANT!
Also, WHOAMG 10 MINUTE RANT!
But lauren, you can't just argue about why shes a role model when rev specifically says "Lara appears Smart, Strong, and an independent female, which would be great if it wasnt bullshit" and says its bullshit because of her tendency to shoot everything. Im not saying you can't make a decent argument against rev, I think you can, but you didn't respond to it in the proper way.
Archeologists don't carry dual pistols to the work site from what I have seen on Discovery channel and such.
@RYU89 It's a fucking video game lol. People enjoy killing shit! Just because she kills shit doesn't mean she isn't smart! I don't know why people think that!!
90% of male characters run around and kill shit and people don't assume they are dumb do they? no.
90% of male characters run around and kill shit and people don't assume they are dumb do they? no.
@RYU89 It's a fucking video game lol. People enjoy killing shit! Just because she kills shit doesn't mean she isn't smart! I don't know why people think that!!
90% of male characters run around and kill shit and people don't assume they are dumb do they? no.
90% of male characters run around and kill shit and people don't assume they are dumb do they? no.
@RYU89 Lets agree to disagree :p
End of the day she has been a massive influence on me and I know SO many other girls who agree she is a roll model.
End of the day she has been a massive influence on me and I know SO many other girls who agree she is a roll model.
@atheistium
Say other three intelligent video game characters in your opinion, I think we may have different standards... Oh, and I can understand your incontestable love for Lara Croft, I would get pissed if someone said shit about Gex...
Say other three intelligent video game characters in your opinion, I think we may have different standards... Oh, and I can understand your incontestable love for Lara Croft, I would get pissed if someone said shit about Gex...
No. If you need to defend someonme to this degree they're doing somethinvg wrong. I'm sorry but Lara isn't a very good role model in the same way I would never believe Marcus Fenix is either and I hate the his traits as well. They're not good people but even if Lara isn't a very good role model you obviously see some good inside her and I'm not going to argue with how you feel about her but you can't deny that she is being sold on her looks.
I was finally able to view the video from Rev's Rant and was trying to compose a reply, but I'll do it here (cause I like your rant!).
... I think that Rev is looking at this from a very male perspective. Yes, Bayonetta is more "honest" in being a maturbatory figure, but the character doesn't seem to hold much appeal for women. Bayonetta so far seems to have few redeeming characteristics (without anyone having played the game)... particularly with the use of hair as a weapon (ouch!) and the disappearing clothes mechanic.
I tend to agree with atheistium regarding Lara Croft. She is a role model for women. Lara is a female heroine in a male dominated world, a woman who does not need "super powers", who doesn't need a man to be complete, who does what she wants to do - and yes, much of this is mindless killing, much like male characters do in games.
Women's childhood and literary hero's have typically been Cinderella or Snow White... waiting for a man to rescue them so that they can be complete. We moved on to Wonder Woman and characters such as Emma Peel... a giant leap forward, but they still had submissive elements and male characters who "helped" them battle evil. Lara needed no such assistance and was not interested in the male concept of simply battling evil... instead she is ruled by a more base instinct... want.
This is very simply a better role model for young girls and applies more to life and the business world. In "wanting" that CEO position, that job or that raise... yes, they may have to work hard, think smart (like some of those puzzles), destroy some shit along the way and overcome obstaclesy... and yes, they may have to get rid of others who also want or desire the same position. They may not have to kill them (one hopes not!), but they do have to think more like men in realizing that the corporate world is more a battleground than a popularity contest. We see a female hero who still retains her feminine qualities and shows bravery, power, confidence and strength of conviction in pursuing her own path - alone. We've come a long way since Cinderella!
I agree, it's ridiculous not to say that Lara isn't a role model. Games are marketed to males... yes, she has massive mammaries and that's what attracts a male audience for the game... but she also has qualities that women can relate to - much moreso than what I've seen of Bayonetta.
... I think that Rev is looking at this from a very male perspective. Yes, Bayonetta is more "honest" in being a maturbatory figure, but the character doesn't seem to hold much appeal for women. Bayonetta so far seems to have few redeeming characteristics (without anyone having played the game)... particularly with the use of hair as a weapon (ouch!) and the disappearing clothes mechanic.
I tend to agree with atheistium regarding Lara Croft. She is a role model for women. Lara is a female heroine in a male dominated world, a woman who does not need "super powers", who doesn't need a man to be complete, who does what she wants to do - and yes, much of this is mindless killing, much like male characters do in games.
Women's childhood and literary hero's have typically been Cinderella or Snow White... waiting for a man to rescue them so that they can be complete. We moved on to Wonder Woman and characters such as Emma Peel... a giant leap forward, but they still had submissive elements and male characters who "helped" them battle evil. Lara needed no such assistance and was not interested in the male concept of simply battling evil... instead she is ruled by a more base instinct... want.
This is very simply a better role model for young girls and applies more to life and the business world. In "wanting" that CEO position, that job or that raise... yes, they may have to work hard, think smart (like some of those puzzles), destroy some shit along the way and overcome obstaclesy... and yes, they may have to get rid of others who also want or desire the same position. They may not have to kill them (one hopes not!), but they do have to think more like men in realizing that the corporate world is more a battleground than a popularity contest. We see a female hero who still retains her feminine qualities and shows bravery, power, confidence and strength of conviction in pursuing her own path - alone. We've come a long way since Cinderella!
I agree, it's ridiculous not to say that Lara isn't a role model. Games are marketed to males... yes, she has massive mammaries and that's what attracts a male audience for the game... but she also has qualities that women can relate to - much moreso than what I've seen of Bayonetta.
@elsa
As a very male man doing man stuff I must say that in my macho opinion Bayonetta is a better female role model, by simply being the exact opposite of a role model, to me she's the girly Travis...
As a very male man doing man stuff I must say that in my macho opinion Bayonetta is a better female role model, by simply being the exact opposite of a role model, to me she's the girly Travis...
@Elsa
Are you kidding? Rev knows exactly what videogame characters feel like from a female prespective. He's practically a woman himself, he has a sister after all.
Also, women masturbate when they see Lara Croft too, don't they? I can't possibly imagine that the female reaction to Lara Croft could be anything different than the male perspective. Am I right? Cause if I'm not then I'm probably being very condescending to women to immediately assume that I understand what a role model is to them.
Let's see Rev talk about what constitutes a good role model for black people next.
Are you kidding? Rev knows exactly what videogame characters feel like from a female prespective. He's practically a woman himself, he has a sister after all.
Also, women masturbate when they see Lara Croft too, don't they? I can't possibly imagine that the female reaction to Lara Croft could be anything different than the male perspective. Am I right? Cause if I'm not then I'm probably being very condescending to women to immediately assume that I understand what a role model is to them.
Let's see Rev talk about what constitutes a good role model for black people next.
Can someone do an Advice Dog that says, "Get in touch with your feminine side/ Lock your butler in the fridge"?
If Lara Croft is a role model for women, then she is a poor one. I can understand that you love Lara unconditionally, but like Ryu has been saying, it sounds like you raged at Rev's rant just because it attacks one of your favorite characters, not because what he says is incorrect.
Re: Nathan Drake: Rev Anthony has actually brought up in the past that he does take issue with Nathan Drake, and how he wisecracks about murdering hundreds of people, which is a pretty similar complaint he had about Lara Croft.
Re: Nathan Drake: Rev Anthony has actually brought up in the past that he does take issue with Nathan Drake, and how he wisecracks about murdering hundreds of people, which is a pretty similar complaint he had about Lara Croft.
@Preacher747
Are you kidding? You just said someone is practically a woman because he has a sister, where does that even begin to make any sense?
I think you're being incredibly condescending if you believe that Lara was as much of a sexual figure to women as she was to men.
Or am I missing your sarcasm?
Are you kidding? You just said someone is practically a woman because he has a sister, where does that even begin to make any sense?
I think you're being incredibly condescending if you believe that Lara was as much of a sexual figure to women as she was to men.
Or am I missing your sarcasm?
@mcsnow... I assumed it must be sarcasm! (either that or the poor guy is still a virgin... and with good reason to still be one!) :)
Lara Croft raids ancient tombs, kills endangered animals, and is English. She is a terrible role model for women.
Yes Virginia there is sarcasm on the internet.
I'm just playin' Mcsnow, perhaps my humor is a bit too subtle. I do agree with Atheistium on this matter and I have to ask what makes Rev an authority on female role models?
I'm just playin' Mcsnow, perhaps my humor is a bit too subtle. I do agree with Atheistium on this matter and I have to ask what makes Rev an authority on female role models?
Clearly there is something wrong with Rev's argument. He says all is to Lara Croft is tits and guns. As a male I would be inclined to agree but for the fact that many many women actually do look to her as a role model. I could be arrogant and simply say "well they're all mislead and wrong while I'm right" or I can look at things from the female perspective. Women usually are the first ones to point out if a character is simply tits and guns, and yet women haven't with Lara. If anything it's been quite the opposite. Apparently there's something there that women themselves admire, and it's not the boobs. So if I look at Lara and all I see is tits and guns maybe I'm just being a superficial male, maybe there really is something there that I can't see because I'm distracted by the boobs (DBTB). So when are we superficial males going to stop thinking we know what's best for women and stop putting down their role models, whatever they choose them to be?
@precher
Meh, she really is pretty stupid; thing is: she was the closest thing to a human being that our 20 years or older female gamers had...
Meh, she really is pretty stupid; thing is: she was the closest thing to a human being that our 20 years or older female gamers had...
@Preacher747
Very well said about superficial males (I should know I'm one).
Pro tip; sarcasm doesn't convey well across the innernets, I'm a very sarcastic person IRL but try to not use it online because without tone of voice you can never tell if someone is being sarcastic. Sorry I don't mean to derail the main discussion.
As I said, you make a good point.
Very well said about superficial males (I should know I'm one).
Pro tip; sarcasm doesn't convey well across the innernets, I'm a very sarcastic person IRL but try to not use it online because without tone of voice you can never tell if someone is being sarcastic. Sorry I don't mean to derail the main discussion.
As I said, you make a good point.
@Naim Master
I won't agrue the fact that in terms of character she isn't much, but she was one of the first empowering female characters and I won't take that away from female gamers.
I won't agrue the fact that in terms of character she isn't much, but she was one of the first empowering female characters and I won't take that away from female gamers.
"The only people that see her as overly sexual are people that are looking to see her like that"
This.
Excellent Rant. You're awesome. I dig Rev's Rants also, but I think I tend to not agree with him when he rants on sexuality in games/gaming.
I think the Role Model moniker tends to skew into the realm of morality or notions of good vs. evil. However, Lara fits into this idea of Modelling a Role: empowered vs powerless in a situation. Smart vs Witless. Active and curious vs Passive and reactive.
Very well said.
This.
Excellent Rant. You're awesome. I dig Rev's Rants also, but I think I tend to not agree with him when he rants on sexuality in games/gaming.
I think the Role Model moniker tends to skew into the realm of morality or notions of good vs. evil. However, Lara fits into this idea of Modelling a Role: empowered vs powerless in a situation. Smart vs Witless. Active and curious vs Passive and reactive.
Very well said.
Yep, she's a role model. And Uncharted is hilarious if you approach it from the perspective that Nathan Drake is a sociopath.
I think Lara should of just let the dinosaurs kill her so there could be another Jurassic Park movie.
Bitch.
Bitch.
@GOLDENGAMERXERO I did mention a few times about her being marketed and she is pretty. I am full aware on HOW she is marketed. However talk to a bunch of female Tomb Raider fans and they will all of teh same feelings I do.
Lauren, I am legally obligated to make this joke by the internet. If I don't comply, my internets will be stoled and I'll go to prison and get a mean roommate who will do awful things.
LEAVE LARA ALONE!
LEAVE LARA ALONE!
A problem, and this goes for both female and male main characters, is that we should have -better- role models. I know plenty of ladies that love Lara, and plenty of dudes who worship Mario. Not problem at all with them as role models, that's the best we've got in games. The problem is that's -all- we've got. We deserve a better class of characters.
Lara has a tone of amazing qualities, but on the other side her tits were purely added for male wankage. It's like the devs wanted a great character and tacked on the tits because they couldn't get funding for their game. Male characters have their flaws too, in a similar respect.
Lara is a role model, and she's great. Doesn't the next generation deserve a better one though?
Lara has a tone of amazing qualities, but on the other side her tits were purely added for male wankage. It's like the devs wanted a great character and tacked on the tits because they couldn't get funding for their game. Male characters have their flaws too, in a similar respect.
Lara is a role model, and she's great. Doesn't the next generation deserve a better one though?
@Bluexy: I disagree that we need better role models. It would be NICE, sure, but I don't think that every character has to check every box on the "role model" sheet in order to be an effective role model.
For me, playing Tomb Raider often inspired me to keep up with my jogging and be more athletic, so Lara was a role model in that sense. Why is that not enough? Did she have to singlehandedly motivate me to feed the homeless and study quantum mechanics as well?
For me, playing Tomb Raider often inspired me to keep up with my jogging and be more athletic, so Lara was a role model in that sense. Why is that not enough? Did she have to singlehandedly motivate me to feed the homeless and study quantum mechanics as well?
Lara is not so good as a female character, really, she is even very stereotyped and she sells for err... boobies
@GamingGodess
Do we need better female gaming role models? No. Do we need more women playing videogames? No. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had better female gaming role models? Yes. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had more ladies playing games? Hell yes. There is correlation beyond the exaggeration here, and even if something isn't exactly necessary that doesn't mean it's not worth fighting, or at least trolling the internets for.
Lara definitely has done more than enough, but she was designed in 1996! We all deserve a better representative for female characters in games. I think we can all agree it's not going to be Bayonetta.
Do we need better female gaming role models? No. Do we need more women playing videogames? No. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had better female gaming role models? Yes. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had more ladies playing games? Hell yes. There is correlation beyond the exaggeration here, and even if something isn't exactly necessary that doesn't mean it's not worth fighting, or at least trolling the internets for.
Lara definitely has done more than enough, but she was designed in 1996! We all deserve a better representative for female characters in games. I think we can all agree it's not going to be Bayonetta.
@Bluexy
In my opinion there have definitely been better female role models since Lara Croft came out (Jade from Beyond Good and Evil comes to mind). The faulty thinking and the problem I see with what Rev is saying about Lara Croft is that we have to essentially tear down Lara Croft as a role model in order to get better role models? I say no.
We don't have to say that Abraham Lincoln while freeing the slaves was still just a racist bastard in order to appreciate Rosa Parks as a civil rights role model. They're both symbols of a movement. They both have things to offer and they still inspire people which is what's most important when it comes to role models.
Lara Croft being a female role model in no way diminishes other female role models like Alyx Vance. They both bring something to the table.
Also, why is it that I hear mainly males talk about how good of a role model Alyx Vance is while it's mainly females that talk about how great a role model Lara Croft is? Is it some kind of gender gap or some other disconnect? If Alyx Vance doesn't actually inspire women then really how good is she as a role model?
You can have a perfectly crafted female character who ought to be the perfect female role model but if she doesn't actually inspire women then in practical terms she's not a good role model.
In my opinion there have definitely been better female role models since Lara Croft came out (Jade from Beyond Good and Evil comes to mind). The faulty thinking and the problem I see with what Rev is saying about Lara Croft is that we have to essentially tear down Lara Croft as a role model in order to get better role models? I say no.
We don't have to say that Abraham Lincoln while freeing the slaves was still just a racist bastard in order to appreciate Rosa Parks as a civil rights role model. They're both symbols of a movement. They both have things to offer and they still inspire people which is what's most important when it comes to role models.
Lara Croft being a female role model in no way diminishes other female role models like Alyx Vance. They both bring something to the table.
Also, why is it that I hear mainly males talk about how good of a role model Alyx Vance is while it's mainly females that talk about how great a role model Lara Croft is? Is it some kind of gender gap or some other disconnect? If Alyx Vance doesn't actually inspire women then really how good is she as a role model?
You can have a perfectly crafted female character who ought to be the perfect female role model but if she doesn't actually inspire women then in practical terms she's not a good role model.
