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Let me retort, my friends and fellow bloggers, let me make you aware of the hypocrisy at hand. The so called "controversy magnet/attention whore" that is known as Manhunt 2 recently got its sexy self unlocked by hackers and a video of its more "gruesome" kills has been made.
First of all, all I can think by comparing it to 'torture porn' is, are you freaking serious? The shit looks tame to me to be honest. I have difficulty with Jim's words when he compares it to cult movies like Ichi the Killer, or any of Peter Jackson's works when he's never played the Manhunt 2 game. What if I were purely to judge Peter Jackson's movies or Ichi the Killer by a 30 sec trailer that shows purely the worse or most crude moments?
The violence is different than other video games? I have to disagree, killing people is killing people. Making an imaginary line to uplift your form thereof is hypocritical in all sense of the word. Perhaps your style of man killing is different but in no way is it not the same thing in essence. Lets not get this wrong either, we are purely looking at Manhunt from its gore factor as it is it's primary mode of advancement not its story line. Yet, I believe if I'm not mistaken that gun violence by far is the most threatening of current crimes, which can easily twist any game around using such virtual violence like so many people already do.
Jim reiterates his point thrice, but in each he compares it to other violence as if any other act except shooting someone is unacceptable. It's just like movies, Hostel for example, get really low ratings based purely on the gore. I'm afraid I'll play for myself, thank you.
Any game can be made to look like shit if you remove all context and whatever story there might be no matter how minor, that goes for anything. A guy kills a man in the news, sounds terrible, then you find out the other guy is a child molester, suddenly its alright?
I don't think the videos help that much to prove your point since they don't really eliminate the context because in the Gears videos you can infer that the things they're killing are monsters, mutants, aliens or something like that.
I think you might actually be helping Jim's point, the Gears chainsaw kills look over the top on something non-human, while the Manhunt ones try to look real (although a lot of them are pretty much impossible for the average man to do).
And well, I agree that killing in the end is killing, but the way it's carried does make a difference, for some reason there has always been somethings more socially accepted than others, even when in the end they are the same.
Anyway, I completely agree with you that we shouldn't judge the whole game just based on those out of context scenes.
I agree with the out of context thing, but just from seeing those clips (and i've never played either of these games).
a) Gears looks totally over the top, and since its the same thing basically looped i can infer that that is only one section of the gameplay.
b) The Manhunt ones look totally sadist to me. Very creepy. Grim is an understatement, and i can see no enjoyment being gleamed from it. And the characters lack of any facial expressions just makes it all the more creepy.
It's the way it's handled and the atmosphere that the game provides in general. In Manhunt 2, even though the graphics are shit, you're a man realisticly killing another human in a gruesome way when it's unnecessary in the game itself. In Gears of War you're a soldier killing off aliens in an over the top manner with blood splashing all over the place, reminescant of Planet Terror or a Tarantino film.
That said, I do have to agree with you about taking it out of context. I'm sure if I were to play the unedited version of Manhunt 2 that the killing would evoke some kind of real emotion and maybe even gain a sense of purpose.
I've made my points. If you can't get them by now, I can't say anything that'll change your mind. Orate and scream about hypocrisy if you will, but you're wrong.
If you can't tell the difference between the over-the-top, cartoon violence of Gears of War and the silent, soul-less murders in Manhunt 2, well you're not going to understand a word I said.
Like I said, I didn't 'cringe' at this shit, I wasn't offended or upset. I just sat there blankly, disappointed by the shit I was seeing.
but we can agree however that in both cases, it is something were not exposed to in everyday life correct?
I will argue however that gear is just wanton violence for the sake of wanton violence.... the aliens could have bled green or yellow or glitter for that matter but its burgundy red for shock value... nevermind the fact that you decapitate and mutilate opponents online who have an overbearing human likeness... just as well as you can argue that manhunt is just a series of orchestrated cut scenes involving human torture...
I think of it as the tale of a man trying to escape being trapped and tortured, returning the pain given... I think people made a refference to gears being somewhat like an over the top tarantino flick yet I propose that with a back story, we even come to cheer for characters like kill bills beatrix kiddo when she hid and cut the mans aquilles tendon and proceeded to bludgening him with a hospital door and we cringed and gasped and loved every minute of it
I wanted to see vengeance wrought upon the captors within that video game universe, in the worst possible fashion, but closed minded people who head the media just can let it happen, these are the same people who in the same vein will not ever see video games as an art form or a means of expression, just because we cant take the same liberties.... and it is a shame
My objection is not with the content, and I feel that people are willfully ignoring me now. Content is not the issue here, it's the fact that the content is lame and the Manhunt games are terrible. You damn right that Manhunt is a reason why games don't get viewed as art, it's because Rockstar has such a complete lack of class, style or creative tact that it makes the industry look bad.
youre saying that games like manhunt arent expressive... no? that they lack interactivity? polish? guidance? design?
Im saying these games are ideal, theyre an asset to the industry if not for pure unadultered violence, then because it is a guilty pleasure... NO OTHER GAMES DO THAT, THEY HAVE TO EXIST
if mediocre games like halo can manage to have such a following when they offer nothing in terms of novelty, why cant games like manhunt be allowed to exist? theres nothing out there quite like it, they should at least have a chance to be simply because its devoid of anything compelling or artistic, because sometimes it needs to be shallow and unecessary at least just for balance....
I should mentioned that I have not played the 1st game in full or the second one for that matter (to my knowledge its just more of the same in the sequel), not seen the video, but I fully support ANYTHING that takes it upon itself to standout and be an individual. no matter how crude, violent, gutter, savage, cruel whatever
I said I FULLY SUPPORT Manhunt 2 existing in its uncut form and that it deserves an uncut release, regardless of my feeling that it's rubbish. Don't claim that I said games like Manhunt shouldn't be allowed to exist. I feel offended when I feel people are completely ignoring me and responding just to argue.
Lord, I wish people wouldn't always confuse disliking something with wanting to see that thing destroyed.
I can do nothing but echo Jim's statements. There is virtually no comparison between the content of Gears and Manhunt 2. If you can't tell the difference, then I'm not sure who's really the sheep here.
Rockstar has every right to make the game and I think they should have the right to sell it, but my opinion stands. By most accounts, the game is terrible. The graphics are terrible. The kills are creepy and unnerving. There is no artistry or value here. This is an insult to the industry. Rockstar is quickly becoming a bunch of shameless sensationalists who rely almost solely on controversy to sell their games. And that is damaging to the games industry.
No man can define art for another that is the basis of art, the views of Man expressed in any medium. Art is all and everything. To feel anything when viewing art shows the piece is successful in its merits. However my point being in full that nothing can be momentarily glimpsed or piecemealed and judged in art or value.
I commend Jim and George for great arguments worthy of the read through. I also understand Jim in his "SUPPORT" but he presses his opinion as if it were fact, that I don't agree with.
Just as you say that no one can define art for another, your claim that "art is all and everything" is also subjective. I reject it, personally. In my opinion, Manhunt 2 is not art and I really have to question the sanity of anyone who thinks it is. Again, subjective. :)
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I think you might actually be helping Jim's point, the Gears chainsaw kills look over the top on something non-human, while the Manhunt ones try to look real (although a lot of them are pretty much impossible for the average man to do).
And well, I agree that killing in the end is killing, but the way it's carried does make a difference, for some reason there has always been somethings more socially accepted than others, even when in the end they are the same.
Anyway, I completely agree with you that we shouldn't judge the whole game just based on those out of context scenes.
a) Gears looks totally over the top, and since its the same thing basically looped i can infer that that is only one section of the gameplay.
b) The Manhunt ones look totally sadist to me. Very creepy. Grim is an understatement, and i can see no enjoyment being gleamed from it. And the characters lack of any facial expressions just makes it all the more creepy.
That said, I do have to agree with you about taking it out of context. I'm sure if I were to play the unedited version of Manhunt 2 that the killing would evoke some kind of real emotion and maybe even gain a sense of purpose.
anyone who cringes at this shit is some homekept pansy and realize that its a cold cold world out there
If you can't tell the difference between the over-the-top, cartoon violence of Gears of War and the silent, soul-less murders in Manhunt 2, well you're not going to understand a word I said.
Like I said, I didn't 'cringe' at this shit, I wasn't offended or upset. I just sat there blankly, disappointed by the shit I was seeing.
I will argue however that gear is just wanton violence for the sake of wanton violence.... the aliens could have bled green or yellow or glitter for that matter but its burgundy red for shock value... nevermind the fact that you decapitate and mutilate opponents online who have an overbearing human likeness... just as well as you can argue that manhunt is just a series of orchestrated cut scenes involving human torture...
I think of it as the tale of a man trying to escape being trapped and tortured, returning the pain given... I think people made a refference to gears being somewhat like an over the top tarantino flick yet I propose that with a back story, we even come to cheer for characters like kill bills beatrix kiddo when she hid and cut the mans aquilles tendon and proceeded to bludgening him with a hospital door and we cringed and gasped and loved every minute of it
I wanted to see vengeance wrought upon the captors within that video game universe, in the worst possible fashion, but closed minded people who head the media just can let it happen, these are the same people who in the same vein will not ever see video games as an art form or a means of expression, just because we cant take the same liberties.... and it is a shame
Im saying these games are ideal, theyre an asset to the industry if not for pure unadultered violence, then because it is a guilty pleasure... NO OTHER GAMES DO THAT, THEY HAVE TO EXIST
if mediocre games like halo can manage to have such a following when they offer nothing in terms of novelty, why cant games like manhunt be allowed to exist? theres nothing out there quite like it, they should at least have a chance to be simply because its devoid of anything compelling or artistic, because sometimes it needs to be shallow and unecessary at least just for balance....
I should mentioned that I have not played the 1st game in full or the second one for that matter (to my knowledge its just more of the same in the sequel), not seen the video, but I fully support ANYTHING that takes it upon itself to standout and be an individual. no matter how crude, violent, gutter, savage, cruel whatever
Lord, I wish people wouldn't always confuse disliking something with wanting to see that thing destroyed.
Rockstar has every right to make the game and I think they should have the right to sell it, but my opinion stands. By most accounts, the game is terrible. The graphics are terrible. The kills are creepy and unnerving. There is no artistry or value here. This is an insult to the industry. Rockstar is quickly becoming a bunch of shameless sensationalists who rely almost solely on controversy to sell their games. And that is damaging to the games industry.
Fuck it. The end.
I commend Jim and George for great arguments worthy of the read through. I also understand Jim in his "SUPPORT" but he presses his opinion as if it were fact, that I don't agree with.