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 living the dream since March 16, 2006 |
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I don't think the videos help that much to prove your point since they don't really eliminate the context because in the Gears videos you can infer that the things they're killing are monsters, mutants, aliens or something like that.
I think you might actually be helping Jim's point, the Gears chainsaw kills look over the top on something non-human, while the Manhunt ones try to look real (although a lot of them are pretty much impossible for the average man to do).
And well, I agree that killing in the end is killing, but the way it's carried does make a difference, for some reason there has always been somethings more socially accepted than others, even when in the end they are the same.
Anyway, I completely agree with you that we shouldn't judge the whole game just based on those out of context scenes.
I agree with the out of context thing, but just from seeing those clips (and i've never played either of these games).
a) Gears looks totally over the top, and since its the same thing basically looped i can infer that that is only one section of the gameplay.
b) The Manhunt ones look totally sadist to me. Very creepy. Grim is an understatement, and i can see no enjoyment being gleamed from it. And the characters lack of any facial expressions just makes it all the more creepy.
It's the way it's handled and the atmosphere that the game provides in general. In Manhunt 2, even though the graphics are shit, you're a man realisticly killing another human in a gruesome way when it's unnecessary in the game itself. In Gears of War you're a soldier killing off aliens in an over the top manner with blood splashing all over the place, reminescant of Planet Terror or a Tarantino film.
That said, I do have to agree with you about taking it out of context. I'm sure if I were to play the unedited version of Manhunt 2 that the killing would evoke some kind of real emotion and maybe even gain a sense of purpose.
but without standards like manhunt2 there isnt a bar set to be exaggerated by games like gears.... its vital to video games, dare I say necessary...
anyone who cringes at this shit is some homekept pansy and realize that its a cold cold world out there
I've made my points. If you can't get them by now, I can't say anything that'll change your mind. Orate and scream about hypocrisy if you will, but you're wrong.
If you can't tell the difference between the over-the-top, cartoon violence of Gears of War and the silent, soul-less murders in Manhunt 2, well you're not going to understand a word I said.
Like I said, I didn't 'cringe' at this shit, I wasn't offended or upset. I just sat there blankly, disappointed by the shit I was seeing.
but we can agree however that in both cases, it is something were not exposed to in everyday life correct?
I will argue however that gear is just wanton violence for the sake of wanton violence.... the aliens could have bled green or yellow or glitter for that matter but its burgundy red for shock value... nevermind the fact that you decapitate and mutilate opponents online who have an overbearing human likeness... just as well as you can argue that manhunt is just a series of orchestrated cut scenes involving human torture...
I think of it as the tale of a man trying to escape being trapped and tortured, returning the pain given... I think people made a refference to gears being somewhat like an over the top tarantino flick yet I propose that with a back story, we even come to cheer for characters like kill bills beatrix kiddo when she hid and cut the mans aquilles tendon and proceeded to bludgening him with a hospital door and we cringed and gasped and loved every minute of it
I wanted to see vengeance wrought upon the captors within that video game universe, in the worst possible fashion, but closed minded people who head the media just can let it happen, these are the same people who in the same vein will not ever see video games as an art form or a means of expression, just because we cant take the same liberties.... and it is a shame
My objection is not with the content, and I feel that people are willfully ignoring me now. Content is not the issue here, it's the fact that the content is lame and the Manhunt games are terrible. You damn right that Manhunt is a reason why games don't get viewed as art, it's because Rockstar has such a complete lack of class, style or creative tact that it makes the industry look bad.
*content is lame = content is presented lame
youre saying that games like manhunt arent expressive... no? that they lack interactivity? polish? guidance? design?
Im saying these games are ideal, theyre an asset to the industry if not for pure unadultered violence, then because it is a guilty pleasure... NO OTHER GAMES DO THAT, THEY HAVE TO EXIST
if mediocre games like halo can manage to have such a following when they offer nothing in terms of novelty, why cant games like manhunt be allowed to exist? theres nothing out there quite like it, they should at least have a chance to be simply because its devoid of anything compelling or artistic, because sometimes it needs to be shallow and unecessary at least just for balance....
I should mentioned that I have not played the 1st game in full or the second one for that matter (to my knowledge its just more of the same in the sequel), not seen the video, but I fully support ANYTHING that takes it upon itself to standout and be an individual. no matter how crude, violent, gutter, savage, cruel whatever
I said I FULLY SUPPORT Manhunt 2 existing in its uncut form and that it deserves an uncut release, regardless of my feeling that it's rubbish. Don't claim that I said games like Manhunt shouldn't be allowed to exist. I feel offended when I feel people are completely ignoring me and responding just to argue.
Lord, I wish people wouldn't always confuse disliking something with wanting to see that thing destroyed.
Viva pinata was worse BTW. Making babies eat their parents? :(
I can do nothing but echo Jim's statements. There is virtually no comparison between the content of Gears and Manhunt 2. If you can't tell the difference, then I'm not sure who's really the sheep here.
Rockstar has every right to make the game and I think they should have the right to sell it, but my opinion stands. By most accounts, the game is terrible. The graphics are terrible. The kills are creepy and unnerving. There is no artistry or value here. This is an insult to the industry. Rockstar is quickly becoming a bunch of shameless sensationalists who rely almost solely on controversy to sell their games. And that is damaging to the games industry.
Fuck it. The end.
I don't see where the claim of hypocrisy has any merit. It would be hypocritical if Jim were suddenly calling for the game to be banned now based on the violence, after saying all along that it shouldn't be, but he's not saying anything of the sort. No one is telling you that you shouldn't play Manhunt 2, which you seem to imply with your "I'm afraid I'll play for myself, thank you." statement. All a lot of us are saying is that, based on what we've seen of the game ourselves, and regardless of whatever rating it may have received elsewhere, the game is complete shit and not worth playing, in our opinion, and that we also have no interest in playing the game to "make sure it's really that bad, because the murder reel is taken out of context, waaaaah, so it's not fair to Manhunt 2 to say it's shit based solely on that, baaaaaw" or whatever. The violence is certainly part of that, but as you say killing people is killing people, I'll just say that a shit game is a shit game, simple as that. You obviously don't agree with that, so more power to you. Have fun playing Manhunt 2.
No man can define art for another that is the basis of art, the views of Man expressed in any medium. Art is all and everything. To feel anything when viewing art shows the piece is successful in its merits. However my point being in full that nothing can be momentarily glimpsed or piecemealed and judged in art or value.
I commend Jim and George for great arguments worthy of the read through. I also understand Jim in his "SUPPORT" but he presses his opinion as if it were fact, that I don't agree with.
Just as you say that no one can define art for another, your claim that "art is all and everything" is also subjective. I reject it, personally. In my opinion, Manhunt 2 is not art and I really have to question the sanity of anyone who thinks it is. Again, subjective. :)
I agree that anything can be art. Whether it's good or bad art, however, is up for debate. Manhunt 2, to me, is bad art.