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Yeah, the problem isn't that the women in DoA are wearing next to nothing and have huge boobs. The problem is that that's all they do. They are only their to be sexualized. They are not there to be related to by the player. They are objects of lust and nothing more.
If you're going to sexualize a character, you've got to make them the subject of the game, not an object. Lollipop Chainsaw did that pretty well. Juliet was a fetish object to the zombies in the game, but she returned the favor by treating them like objects for her homicidal tendencies.
If the next Dead or Alive game is about kicking the assess of misogynistic jerks, you can bet a lot fewer people will complain about the game being sexist.
If you're going to sexualize a character, you've got to make them the subject of the game, not an object. Lollipop Chainsaw did that pretty well. Juliet was a fetish object to the zombies in the game, but she returned the favor by treating them like objects for her homicidal tendencies.
If the next Dead or Alive game is about kicking the assess of misogynistic jerks, you can bet a lot fewer people will complain about the game being sexist.
Holmes is right; we cannot be simplistic and say all female characters should have no sexuality at all. Sexuality is not bad. Sexuality to the exclusivity of any other trait is just shallow and a missed opportunity.
MY BELIEF:
I think is what most people still do not understand. Recognition of misogyny in games or recognition of sexuality in games does not mean there is an argument is for these things to go away totally. The current trend to question the tropes and stories we see in games is just that TOO SEE THEM. To see them for what they are, to see that they are over used, and to see that we might want to curb what we consume that is sometimes offensives for no reason. It is not about removing sexuality, titillation, or even downright sex for the sake of sex from games.
The best result from an awareness of gender roles in games is to create more multifaceted females (and male) characters. To make it normal and typical that a female character was more than just something to look at or something to merely ogle. Part of their characteristics could be great beauty, perfect body symmetry, and a great set of knockers...do yak all get that is okay...but that cannot be all the character is...always.
That is the other thing people must understand because believe me feminism understand this, sometimes the demands of a character is a story, painting, sculpture, movie means a character sometimes needs to be one dimensional and that dimension is sexuality. The demands of narrative or any art sometimes means we reduce some charters down to a single trait. The example is Shakespearian prostitute #4 is a always going to be a single dimensional character, but that is okay because not every female character is one dimensional and not every play has a female prostitute #1-#4. That is where games are slow to adapt, too many female characters lack depth and when they have any trait it is often sexual or about the male gaze.
If we bring this back to DoA 5 the solution is not to take them women out of there revealing costumes, you could do that but need not have to, because the solution is merely to give the charters some more depth. It is fighting games the amount of agency and depth you give them might be slim, but it can still be more skillfully done. There can be a greater balance of them being skillful fighters, confident individuals, savvy tacticians, authoritative leaders, and just plain old punch you in the nose fighters. A few lines of dialogue here or there, a few story threads heading in a more confident direction, and a few tweak of in story and the game are more balanced. Notice I never said reduce breast size, change costumes, or totally changes the story. The solution is not to treat they sexuality of the game as a problem, but to treat the one dimensionality as a place to consider improvement.
MY BELIEF:
I think is what most people still do not understand. Recognition of misogyny in games or recognition of sexuality in games does not mean there is an argument is for these things to go away totally. The current trend to question the tropes and stories we see in games is just that TOO SEE THEM. To see them for what they are, to see that they are over used, and to see that we might want to curb what we consume that is sometimes offensives for no reason. It is not about removing sexuality, titillation, or even downright sex for the sake of sex from games.
The best result from an awareness of gender roles in games is to create more multifaceted females (and male) characters. To make it normal and typical that a female character was more than just something to look at or something to merely ogle. Part of their characteristics could be great beauty, perfect body symmetry, and a great set of knockers...do yak all get that is okay...but that cannot be all the character is...always.
That is the other thing people must understand because believe me feminism understand this, sometimes the demands of a character is a story, painting, sculpture, movie means a character sometimes needs to be one dimensional and that dimension is sexuality. The demands of narrative or any art sometimes means we reduce some charters down to a single trait. The example is Shakespearian prostitute #4 is a always going to be a single dimensional character, but that is okay because not every female character is one dimensional and not every play has a female prostitute #1-#4. That is where games are slow to adapt, too many female characters lack depth and when they have any trait it is often sexual or about the male gaze.
If we bring this back to DoA 5 the solution is not to take them women out of there revealing costumes, you could do that but need not have to, because the solution is merely to give the charters some more depth. It is fighting games the amount of agency and depth you give them might be slim, but it can still be more skillfully done. There can be a greater balance of them being skillful fighters, confident individuals, savvy tacticians, authoritative leaders, and just plain old punch you in the nose fighters. A few lines of dialogue here or there, a few story threads heading in a more confident direction, and a few tweak of in story and the game are more balanced. Notice I never said reduce breast size, change costumes, or totally changes the story. The solution is not to treat they sexuality of the game as a problem, but to treat the one dimensionality as a place to consider improvement.
Well ,I didn't say that sex should go away , far from it .
I think that we shouldn't be so childish in the way we portray it .
It would be nice to see a game protagonist like say Ezio , Niko Belic or John Marston in a female form . A great character is a great character even if her or his appearance is sexy .
I think that we shouldn't be so childish in the way we portray it .
It would be nice to see a game protagonist like say Ezio , Niko Belic or John Marston in a female form . A great character is a great character even if her or his appearance is sexy .
Well ,I didn't say that sex should go away , far from it .
I think that we shouldn't be so childish in the way we portray it .
It would be nice to see a game protagonist like say Ezio , Niko Belic or John Marston in a female form . A great character is a great character even if her or his appearance is sexy .
I think that we shouldn't be so childish in the way we portray it .
It would be nice to see a game protagonist like say Ezio , Niko Belic or John Marston in a female form . A great character is a great character even if her or his appearance is sexy .
Well ,I didn't say that sex should go away , far from it .
I think that we shouldn't be so childish in the way we portray it .
It would be nice to see a game protagonist like say Ezio , Niko Belic or John Marston in a female form . A great character is a great character even if her or his appearance is sexy .
I think that we shouldn't be so childish in the way we portray it .
It would be nice to see a game protagonist like say Ezio , Niko Belic or John Marston in a female form . A great character is a great character even if her or his appearance is sexy .
It's obvious that Jonathan (can't say I'm surprised) hasn't actually played Dead or Alive 5, because pretty much all the women have roles that are FAR more central and important and win most of the fights.
Not only that, but every male character in the game is reduced to nothing more than a boring trope, while all the females take positions of respect and authority.
Last but not least, I will deign to admit that I have had no less than two separate girlfriends (yes, IRL) who fucking loved Dead or Alive and both of them fanatically idealized themselves after the characters. Soooo... yeah.
@John
Every time you comment about this discussion I feel you re grasping at straws. They don't do anything else? They Fight... just like all the other characters.
I also continue see no point in this discussion. This was never meant to be some huge cultural phenomenon for the evolution of art or society; It's a video game. Specifically, a fighting game that has never tried to be anything but a simple fun diversion... certainly not some sophisticated display of gaming culture. Has anyone ever before thought of doa as anything more than a fun fighting game?
I really don't think you OR Jim even have a problem with doa or even believe what your saying; you just want to spread discussion on dtoid. While that's cool, I think turning doa into some scapegoat for this purpose is a little unfair...
Every time you comment about this discussion I feel you re grasping at straws. They don't do anything else? They Fight... just like all the other characters.
I also continue see no point in this discussion. This was never meant to be some huge cultural phenomenon for the evolution of art or society; It's a video game. Specifically, a fighting game that has never tried to be anything but a simple fun diversion... certainly not some sophisticated display of gaming culture. Has anyone ever before thought of doa as anything more than a fun fighting game?
I really don't think you OR Jim even have a problem with doa or even believe what your saying; you just want to spread discussion on dtoid. While that's cool, I think turning doa into some scapegoat for this purpose is a little unfair...
@Cody Kings
I don't think that DOA5's story has any central characters . Just some chicks appear , they fight and win , then a sign appears saying "2 days later " and the same process repeats . There is hardly any connection to anything , except for this stupid tournament .
I don't think that DOA5's story has any central characters . Just some chicks appear , they fight and win , then a sign appears saying "2 days later " and the same process repeats . There is hardly any connection to anything , except for this stupid tournament .
@Videogamecharacter
I'm not saying the story is good, or well written, but Kasumi, Helena, Ayane, Tina, are all the dominant characters.
I'm not saying the story is good, or well written, but Kasumi, Helena, Ayane, Tina, are all the dominant characters.
