I sort of felt this way about the transitions between Soulcalibur II to Soul Calibur IV and Everquest to Everquest II.
Character and streamlining is all well and good, but if all you ever concern yourself with is making something accessible to new consumers you risk losing old fans by leaps and bounds.
I'm an Ivy player in Soul Calibur, but they destroyed her in SCIII and while much repaired in SCIV - what I loved about her in SC and SCII, that ability to play mindgames with your opponent with her stances and buffers, is still totally gone in SCIV. They weakened her by forcing a sequence into what stance she can adapt, a specific order.
And EQII. They gave up some much of what made the first game special right out of the gate. Sure, getting rid of faction and making token good/evil cities made things easier, but Freeport wasn't Evil on other games, it was neutral territory. Being a neutral city gave it unique flavor
And no faction makes things a great deal easier, but loses that feeling or roleplaying. I guess some people might have a problem with in-game NPC racism between High Elves and Dark Elves, but I always thought that was in good fun. Hell, I played the EQ on the PS2 as well, one of the most memorable moments in the game was me starting out as a Bard on Qeynos and this female dark elf - who had travelled all the way from Freeport stops to ask me for direction.
An NPC in a nearby watchtower sees her and- being programmed to hate dark elves with no faction with humans - killed her on the spot. Her binding point was still back in Freeport, a couple hours journey by foot for a low level player.
I thought it was hilarious. I later chose Enchanter as my main class, I liked it because I could pose as other races without having to need to up my faction. Of course, such spells had limits and if someone saw me as a high elf in the dark elf city my fate was sealed, but that was the edge to it.
We are losing a great deal of personality in games just to make everyone feel OK playing them. Its a shame.
I can't even play WoW. It feels so damn dumb in contrast to the MMOs I came up on. I kinda like some penalties around, if only to prevent stupid people from being so stupid.
Character and streamlining is all well and good, but if all you ever concern yourself with is making something accessible to new consumers you risk losing old fans by leaps and bounds.
I'm an Ivy player in Soul Calibur, but they destroyed her in SCIII and while much repaired in SCIV - what I loved about her in SC and SCII, that ability to play mindgames with your opponent with her stances and buffers, is still totally gone in SCIV. They weakened her by forcing a sequence into what stance she can adapt, a specific order.
And EQII. They gave up some much of what made the first game special right out of the gate. Sure, getting rid of faction and making token good/evil cities made things easier, but Freeport wasn't Evil on other games, it was neutral territory. Being a neutral city gave it unique flavor
And no faction makes things a great deal easier, but loses that feeling or roleplaying. I guess some people might have a problem with in-game NPC racism between High Elves and Dark Elves, but I always thought that was in good fun. Hell, I played the EQ on the PS2 as well, one of the most memorable moments in the game was me starting out as a Bard on Qeynos and this female dark elf - who had travelled all the way from Freeport stops to ask me for direction.
An NPC in a nearby watchtower sees her and- being programmed to hate dark elves with no faction with humans - killed her on the spot. Her binding point was still back in Freeport, a couple hours journey by foot for a low level player.
I thought it was hilarious. I later chose Enchanter as my main class, I liked it because I could pose as other races without having to need to up my faction. Of course, such spells had limits and if someone saw me as a high elf in the dark elf city my fate was sealed, but that was the edge to it.
We are losing a great deal of personality in games just to make everyone feel OK playing them. Its a shame.
I can't even play WoW. It feels so damn dumb in contrast to the MMOs I came up on. I kinda like some penalties around, if only to prevent stupid people from being so stupid.
I'll fap it, but I'm not sure how I feel about this guy.
I'm not a gamer with strong roots in the days of yesteryear, back when pressing a button was an uphill walk both ways, so maybe I can't comment with confidence on the benefits of complexity, but I'll give it a shot.
So yeah, right off, I do like an intelligent game, something with the subtlety to make you think and explore. It's an absolute godsend to find a game that leaves some of its depth for the player to discover at their own volition. Certainly some of my favourite experiences have come about as I uncovered just how to play a game and play it well. Yes, in that, complexity is good.
At the same time, I want people to be able to enjoy games. One of the hardest barriers can be simply learning what to do and I feel as though some of the more layered offerings set up these exclusive clubs, shunning the plebians without the capacity to suffer through picking up the dozens of rules and commands they need to make any sort of headway. That is simply wrong to me.
There is, I think, a difference between being complex or difficult and outright obtuse. There are certainly games I might name which swing terribly towards the latter. While I'm unquestionably a fan of rich play, I can't say I want it to come at the expense of the better part of the populace. Maybe I'm being naive, it's not uncharacteristic, but I'd like to believe we can make games where success is a standard for everybody but, and this is the crux, greatness is the domain of the few.
"Bey, that was a whackton of nonsense."
"Well imaginary voice, it's early and I'm impressed I managed anything other than 'hrglgrhlgrk'."
I'm not a gamer with strong roots in the days of yesteryear, back when pressing a button was an uphill walk both ways, so maybe I can't comment with confidence on the benefits of complexity, but I'll give it a shot.
So yeah, right off, I do like an intelligent game, something with the subtlety to make you think and explore. It's an absolute godsend to find a game that leaves some of its depth for the player to discover at their own volition. Certainly some of my favourite experiences have come about as I uncovered just how to play a game and play it well. Yes, in that, complexity is good.
At the same time, I want people to be able to enjoy games. One of the hardest barriers can be simply learning what to do and I feel as though some of the more layered offerings set up these exclusive clubs, shunning the plebians without the capacity to suffer through picking up the dozens of rules and commands they need to make any sort of headway. That is simply wrong to me.
There is, I think, a difference between being complex or difficult and outright obtuse. There are certainly games I might name which swing terribly towards the latter. While I'm unquestionably a fan of rich play, I can't say I want it to come at the expense of the better part of the populace. Maybe I'm being naive, it's not uncharacteristic, but I'd like to believe we can make games where success is a standard for everybody but, and this is the crux, greatness is the domain of the few.
"Bey, that was a whackton of nonsense."
"Well imaginary voice, it's early and I'm impressed I managed anything other than 'hrglgrhlgrk'."
@Beyamor
Made sense to me!
Personally, i really dog when I can explore the versatility of a game's systems. Dive in, learn up, bathe in the toughness.
But, Yeah, ultimately I'd like for everyone to be able to enjoy a game they think they're interested in, without fear of being overwhelmed by that sweet sweet play depth. CIv definitely hangs out in that sweet spot as a franchise, mostly because of how tightly knit the support system is. Advisors fit perfectly into the conceit of the game (you're the king dawg), while playing that super functional gameplay role (you don't j ow what you're doing, you should do this, noob).
Maybe it would be best to advocate for and applaud the in-game tutorials of releases more often? Some tutorials are pandering and groan worthy, but maybe that's the cost of maintaining play mechanic maturity and complexity?
Made sense to me!
Personally, i really dog when I can explore the versatility of a game's systems. Dive in, learn up, bathe in the toughness.
But, Yeah, ultimately I'd like for everyone to be able to enjoy a game they think they're interested in, without fear of being overwhelmed by that sweet sweet play depth. CIv definitely hangs out in that sweet spot as a franchise, mostly because of how tightly knit the support system is. Advisors fit perfectly into the conceit of the game (you're the king dawg), while playing that super functional gameplay role (you don't j ow what you're doing, you should do this, noob).
Maybe it would be best to advocate for and applaud the in-game tutorials of releases more often? Some tutorials are pandering and groan worthy, but maybe that's the cost of maintaining play mechanic maturity and complexity?
I think that games were much more difficult "back in the day" because they didn't have room for new content... so much of the game content was reliant on restarting the entire level when you made a mistake, or repeating re-done levels ad naseum on increasing difficulties.
The other consideration is that all those 6 year old kids are now adults and adults simply have less time for gaming and they also have disposable income. Kids go through that obsessive phase where they can watch The Lion King over and over and over again. They can do that with games too... enjoying a game that is really nothing more than doing the same type of thing repetitively. They also had no choice, it's not like they could just put it down and go buy a new game.
I think that the changes in gaming reflect not just the newer technical abilities of games, but also the changing and aging gamer demographic.
Maybe we have to blame gamers for the changes...
The other consideration is that all those 6 year old kids are now adults and adults simply have less time for gaming and they also have disposable income. Kids go through that obsessive phase where they can watch The Lion King over and over and over again. They can do that with games too... enjoying a game that is really nothing more than doing the same type of thing repetitively. They also had no choice, it's not like they could just put it down and go buy a new game.
I think that the changes in gaming reflect not just the newer technical abilities of games, but also the changing and aging gamer demographic.
Maybe we have to blame gamers for the changes...
@Elsa
Blame the gamer? But we're the victims here! Jk :D
honestly, though, a good point. I wonder sometimes if we fool ourselves into thinking we don't have enough time. Games save, for the most part. An 8 hour game of CIv could easily be four, 2 hour chunks. Not that unreasonable over a week or two of real time. maybe we don't need quicker games. Maybe just a little more willpower?!
Blame the gamer? But we're the victims here! Jk :D
honestly, though, a good point. I wonder sometimes if we fool ourselves into thinking we don't have enough time. Games save, for the most part. An 8 hour game of CIv could easily be four, 2 hour chunks. Not that unreasonable over a week or two of real time. maybe we don't need quicker games. Maybe just a little more willpower?!
Really interesting stuff, Tubatic.
In response to your last comment in this thread, I work two jobs and go to school full time in downtown Chicago. In between train rides, work, classes, the woman and doing things with friend, I'm still able to sink a lot of time into gaming. But that's because I want to. I want to enjoy a relaxing few hours playing games either by myself or competitively with friends or strangers. So what I'm trying to get at is: Yes. We need more willpower. It seems some folks are starting to enjoy gaming less, and use it interchangeably as a time-waster rather than a hobby they love. I dunno, could be me over analyzing.
Also, fapped.
In response to your last comment in this thread, I work two jobs and go to school full time in downtown Chicago. In between train rides, work, classes, the woman and doing things with friend, I'm still able to sink a lot of time into gaming. But that's because I want to. I want to enjoy a relaxing few hours playing games either by myself or competitively with friends or strangers. So what I'm trying to get at is: Yes. We need more willpower. It seems some folks are starting to enjoy gaming less, and use it interchangeably as a time-waster rather than a hobby they love. I dunno, could be me over analyzing.
Also, fapped.
Fapped for a really nice write up. I think this is why Demon's Souls got so much attention - very much a return to form of the old ball-breakingly unpermissive games of our youth - but updated to a modern level in certain ways, like constant auto-saving and having a permanent inventory mule, so that there's an option to grind your way out of situations you can't skill your way through.
It's a really delicate balance - ideally you want something kind of like chess, that anyone can pick up and play, but that dedicated players can find more and more challenge in as they learn and master the systems.
Despite my love for the internets, I have to admit that I sometimes miss the time when FAQs were not a mouse-click away. Discovering secrets and strategies to overcome tough levels was just much more rewarding back in the day.
It's a really delicate balance - ideally you want something kind of like chess, that anyone can pick up and play, but that dedicated players can find more and more challenge in as they learn and master the systems.
Despite my love for the internets, I have to admit that I sometimes miss the time when FAQs were not a mouse-click away. Discovering secrets and strategies to overcome tough levels was just much more rewarding back in the day.
@fulldamage
Right on, that's what I'm talking about! Demon's Souls wasn't very big on technique based hand holding, but the terms of your existence in that game world was made fairly explicit through their intro/ tutorial level. There was plenty to discover about what you are capable in that game world. The systems are pretty straight forward, but there's room for mastery and gameplay rewards for your efforts (you can handle situations better the first time)
Right on, that's what I'm talking about! Demon's Souls wasn't very big on technique based hand holding, but the terms of your existence in that game world was made fairly explicit through their intro/ tutorial level. There was plenty to discover about what you are capable in that game world. The systems are pretty straight forward, but there's room for mastery and gameplay rewards for your efforts (you can handle situations better the first time)
well written...well thought out...Unfortunately none of the games have ever made my hands so I can't really grasp the changes stated. Except for SimCity, though I haven't touched Societies.
Are you saying that when they focused on Block management and lost focus on Simulation, that they it became less geared towards the obsessive?
Are you saying that when they focused on Block management and lost focus on Simulation, that they it became less geared towards the obsessive?
Good write up, i kinda see the good points from your and Beyamor's perspective, on your side i understand that sometimes the problem is in how streamlining is done, to use Om Nom On Soul's words "done with and axe instead of sandpaper" and that takes away a lot of fun from a game for those of us that enjoy a deep, complex, meaningful experience and it's something that shouldn't happen, in my case it hits close to home with the upcoming 3rd Birthday: apparently most RPG elements from previous games got cut out in favor of TPS mechanics with a bit of Mindjack.
On Bey's side i get and dig the the way things got simplified this gen regarding control schemes thanks to the Wii (when done right that is), TvC is the perfect example, it totally dumps the whole "learning move sets" in favor of a much simpler control scheme, sure, some people don't like this because it makes it easier for others to get in the game and do better, but let's be honest: if a simpler control scheme in a fighting game makes the difference between you kicking ass and doing so so then you didn't have real skills to begin with, you just were skilled with a controller and remembering move sets, the same can be applied to any other game in that aspect.
So yeah, fapped for cool writing.
On Bey's side i get and dig the the way things got simplified this gen regarding control schemes thanks to the Wii (when done right that is), TvC is the perfect example, it totally dumps the whole "learning move sets" in favor of a much simpler control scheme, sure, some people don't like this because it makes it easier for others to get in the game and do better, but let's be honest: if a simpler control scheme in a fighting game makes the difference between you kicking ass and doing so so then you didn't have real skills to begin with, you just were skilled with a controller and remembering move sets, the same can be applied to any other game in that aspect.
So yeah, fapped for cool writing.
@manasteel
Well, not so much excluding the obsessive: i can see someone still getting obsessive about making the most aesthetically pleasing and well balanced block. But its a game changer. The skills I learned and internalized as good gameplay in earlier SimCities are just not present or required.
Its like getting new 16-bit MegaMan game that have you program MegaMan with AI, and you watch him play. Still a form of play, still the same playing field, same strategies, and attractive graphics/sound. But the mechanics that you really enjoyed are gone. I might still enjoy that game intensely (kind of a cool idea, come to think of it...), but I would be missing out on further expansion/iteration on the playstyle I really enjoyed.
Well, not so much excluding the obsessive: i can see someone still getting obsessive about making the most aesthetically pleasing and well balanced block. But its a game changer. The skills I learned and internalized as good gameplay in earlier SimCities are just not present or required.
Its like getting new 16-bit MegaMan game that have you program MegaMan with AI, and you watch him play. Still a form of play, still the same playing field, same strategies, and attractive graphics/sound. But the mechanics that you really enjoyed are gone. I might still enjoy that game intensely (kind of a cool idea, come to think of it...), but I would be missing out on further expansion/iteration on the playstyle I really enjoyed.

surf dtoid with 

Rising (10+)
People you follow

send message
follow
followers





















