surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
send message
follow
followers
I definitely agree with you and jim both on the fact that games are becoming too shallow. I won't name any names, but even companies known for producing things that are extraordinarily deep have been putting out games that are almost paper thin. A lot of devs seem to like finding a gimmick and going with it, especially on the arcade titles. It's a real bummer for someone like me who plays something and instantly sees all these different ways it could have been much better if the devs would have spent a little more time with it. If Jim plays games with that kind of mindset, I certainly can't blame him for being disappointed with some of the current selections.
I don't think we're losing depth. Just that with all the media coverage the flaws in a game are more likely to be exposed, and the sheer size of the industry today means we have that many more complete experiences to compare these games to. What was acceptable 20, 10, or even 5 years ago isn't anymore...
... unless it's from Japan of course.
... unless it's from Japan of course.
Anthony's sort of brought this up before. Don't give indie games any slack. If you're going ask me to spend $15 on your game, I don't care how creative an idea, it better be good. If it doesn't have enough depth to justify $15, charge less for it.
I had this problem with 'Splosion Man. Besides the fact that the game was nowhere near as funny as it thought it was, the final section of the game was just rehashed ideas from the first two. You can't do that for more than a third of the main game. They could have cut that part in half and the game would have been better for it.
But I'm getting off topic. I don't think indie games are losing depth (at least right now), but I do think (judging by some of the comments in Jim's reviews) that some people are deliberately being too soft in their criticism.
I had this problem with 'Splosion Man. Besides the fact that the game was nowhere near as funny as it thought it was, the final section of the game was just rehashed ideas from the first two. You can't do that for more than a third of the main game. They could have cut that part in half and the game would have been better for it.
But I'm getting off topic. I don't think indie games are losing depth (at least right now), but I do think (judging by some of the comments in Jim's reviews) that some people are deliberately being too soft in their criticism.
I agree, these games are hard to review. Do you base them on how well they pulled of everything or do you review them on how much you enjoyed them. The thing about indie games is that it's hard to get an honest review. Often times a story of underdogs is attached to the game, and the studios future depends on this title. It's not easy to say you dislike it, a negative review can cost them some very important sales. It's okay to say you didn't like Red Dead Redemption (which was an amazing game), but if you disliked Limbo you're a plaque on humanity and are considered to be setting gaming back ten years. I like indie games alot actually, I just wish people didn't pretend like they're exempt from criticism because it was developed and published by one to five people.
I disagree whole heartedly. We are losing depth in all games. In fact, there are games like Nier that try to provide ample activity to flesh out the world only to get punished for this option because people would rather complain about a side quest than move forward with the main storyline.
Digital Distribution means nothing. Final Fantasy XIII has no depth. Mass Effect 2 has very little depth.
I'm a huge indie guy and I will support them, but they are examples because they are little. It's easy to pick on the little guy. However, games in general have been following this trend. It's only when you get grand examples that you see where they fall.
Shoot 1 Up is a deep indie game. So is BoDVII and Super Meat Boy. It can be done. The industry however is slipping from the restrictions of years past. These more open platforms are giving people freedom and they are squandering it by putting focus in the inane.
Digital Distribution means nothing. Final Fantasy XIII has no depth. Mass Effect 2 has very little depth.
I'm a huge indie guy and I will support them, but they are examples because they are little. It's easy to pick on the little guy. However, games in general have been following this trend. It's only when you get grand examples that you see where they fall.
Shoot 1 Up is a deep indie game. So is BoDVII and Super Meat Boy. It can be done. The industry however is slipping from the restrictions of years past. These more open platforms are giving people freedom and they are squandering it by putting focus in the inane.
I agree but I think we need to evaluate games on a case by case basis. Like you said, Super Meat Boy certainly doesn't lack depth and neither does Braid. As for non-indie titles, the new Mortal Kombat game comes to mind as a good example of a new game with depth. So I don't think it's fair to say "indie games lack depth" or "non indie games lack depth" or even "all games lack depth." The only fair argument to make in my opinion is "Some games lack depth, and services like the AppStore and XBLA seem to encourage that."
i think it's a good thing to talk about, even if it's been discussed before.
Some games are definitely lacking depth, the ones you mentioned that have been reviewed by Jim, are good examples. In fact, with those particular games, I think you could say too much effort was put into the way it looks as opposed to the content and quality of the gameplay. There's a lot of pressure for games being released on HD consoles to look a certain way, which takes up valuable resources (as you mentioned).
This makes me think of the indie music industry. Songs may lack that super-polished, crisp and clean sound a major record company would give it, but if the music is good it doesn't matter. And this is accepted, and welcomed by the public. The indie scene has never been bigger, and is in fact dismantling the record industry. They use the same outlets that video games use (digital distribution), and rely on word of mouth marketing as much as games do. If indie game developers have the same mentality and outlook on their product, I think we consumers would be seeing higher quality games.
Some games are definitely lacking depth, the ones you mentioned that have been reviewed by Jim, are good examples. In fact, with those particular games, I think you could say too much effort was put into the way it looks as opposed to the content and quality of the gameplay. There's a lot of pressure for games being released on HD consoles to look a certain way, which takes up valuable resources (as you mentioned).
This makes me think of the indie music industry. Songs may lack that super-polished, crisp and clean sound a major record company would give it, but if the music is good it doesn't matter. And this is accepted, and welcomed by the public. The indie scene has never been bigger, and is in fact dismantling the record industry. They use the same outlets that video games use (digital distribution), and rely on word of mouth marketing as much as games do. If indie game developers have the same mentality and outlook on their product, I think we consumers would be seeing higher quality games.
