I hated Mario 64. Everything about the 2D Mario's I had grown to love was chucked out the window with the advent of Mario's sell out cross over into the world of "3D exploring" and "analog movement". Mario 64 signaled the end of an era for me, and almost caused me to give up on Nintendo entirely.
Mario 64 had awesome music, great graphics, and it looked like a Mario game, but that's where the similarities ended. All the Mario games up until Mario 64 had five specific traits in common that gave the series cohesiveness, and made them all awesome (Doki Doki Panic doesn't count).
1) Linear levels that never required (or even allowed for) backtracking.
2) Multiple types of power ups potentially hidden around every corner.
3) Sudden death also lurking around every corner in the forms of 1-3 hit kills, spikes, and bottomless pits
4) Insane, surrealistic worlds.
5) The inability to ever get lost (see point #1)
Mario 64 gave up on each and every one of these points, effectively neutering Mario, changing him for an out of place daredevil explorer facing potential murder or accidental suicide at any moment... to a kid's playground tester.
First off, I found myself getting lost Mario 64 the second I started playing it. That had never happened in a Mario game, ever. Being lost naturally led to being bored, which has also never happened in a Mari game. Yet I struggled on, knowing that since it was a Mario game a cool power up was sure to be in my hands at any moment.
Well, that moment never happened. Metal Mario and Wings Hat Mario were all the game had to offer (as far as I know). And they didn't show up for a long time. A far cry from the Mushroom you get in SMB1 after the first five seconds of play.
Mario did have some attacks to get him through the game, in the way of totally out of character karate moves. For long time Mario fans this came off as very, very lame. Not only is is wrong to see Mario suddenly kicking ass when for years he had no such ability, Mario's new found fighting skill makes him an almost unstoppable opponent. It almost takes effort for Mario to "lose" against his enemies. In prior games a pin point precise jump was necessary for Mario to take out even the smallest of foes. Now, button mashing the attack button was all you needed, even against some bosses.
Not to mention that now Mario had a freaking Life Bar.
I after chugging through the first five or so paintings in Mario 64, I think I had more than 50 lives. The concept of difficulty I had grown to love in Mario's world, starting with the instant deaths in the original Donkey Kong, had died right before my eyes.
But at least I'd get some signature Mario weirdness in Mario 64, right? Well, sort of. I got a 3D version of all the Mario weirdness I had grown to love, but that was it. No new weirdness for the entire game (more or less). This begs the question, "Is more of the old weirdness still technically weird, or is it now just the new 'normal'?"
Yeah, yeah, I know what that smells like.
All philosophical tangents aside, I found nothing exciting about Mario 64's world. It was just Mario again, except watered down and old feeling. It was the first time Mario had really repeated himself, and that made me sort of sick.
So in a nutshell, that's why after ten years and multiple attempts at play (on both the N64 and the DS) I have never been able to like Mario 64.
Yet, I love Mario Galaxy. It's so much better than I thought it would be. All five of the above precepts of 2D Mario are back with a vengeance. No backtracking has been necessary at all (I'm about 15 levels into the game), giving the game the 2D Mario "Must always move forward!" feeling I had so badly missed. Through the collection of Star Bits, you are powering up in this game constantly, no to mention the Bee, Boo, Fire, Ice, Spring, and Star suits that could show up at nearly any time. And death finally lurks around every corner again. The life bar is still there, but it's size has been reduced to three bars. After just the first few hours of play I've fallen to my death, been electricuted, and gotten my ass kicked by Gombas on more than one occasion. And it feels good.
Most of the planets are so small that you never get lost, yet are still faced with a constant sense of purpose and challenge. But more importantly, these planets are Insanely weird. I have never seen this kind of stuff done in a video game, ever. It's a new level of surrealism for the entertainment world in general. Yellow Submarine, Frederico Fellini, David Lynch, Katamari and Psychonaughts have officially been de-throned.
If you lost interest in Mario games when they went 3D like I did, Galaxy will bring you back into the fold. Give it a try, for serious. And not just the first few levels. Until you've surfed on the manta, you haven't really given this game a chance.
Bonus spoiler vids of Olimar's ship from Pikman, L-Block from Tetris, and Yoshi all making cameos in the same level.
Tron, have I ever mentioned I love you? I've always wanted to clearly articulate my lack of interest in Mario 64 and you've done it so much better than I ever could have. On top of that, you've convinced me to go to the store and buy Mario Galaxy now. Like literally, right now after I hit "Add Comment".
Um, are you guys actuall reading the post? The five things I listed at the start are the things I LOVE about Mario games that were [i[NOT[/i] in Mario 64, but ARE in Galaxy.
I heart insane, surrealistic worlds. Mario 64 had not, just the generic "Snow level", "Lava Level" and "Ice leve".
yes, i agree 100%, galaxy is amazing, and feels like a throwback to the old 2d marios. i feel that this game is like the SMB3 of now, and i love every second of it. the weirdness of the game makes me addicted to it even more.
I personally think that the revolutionary things that you think are bad, as good. Most of the complaints you had are talking about how the makers ended up "Expanding" the universe that Mario "Lives" in.
The only reasoning behind the original Marios in the first place was because the hardware that was operating the games back then was sub-par by anymeans compared the the leap they took when the 64 came out. It was the revolutionary introduction into a full 3-d Mario, something most fans had been waiting for for years. I don't totally understand your explanation, but on the same hand I think that the moment rpgs went into the 3-d world they lost a lot of integrity, they only gained graphics.
You also talk of not having enough "weirdness" that you'd come to love, but then you contradict yourself by also saying that one of the down factors being "Insanely surrealistic worlds"? That isn't weird? Just me wondering thinking thats a bit weird eh?
Ah, I totally read that wrong, and so therefore posted entirely wrong also. My mistake mate, I apologize for any arguments started, just me defending what I love.
That's a matter of opinion. I thought that mario 64 had some very surreal levels and even the "ice level" etc. were all very well done and unconventional enough that it held my intrest to the end.
But i respect your opinion and can't wait to get my hands on a copy.
Well, I can understand about Yellow Submarine, Frederico Fellini, David Lynch, Katamari and Psychonauts. But what about that master of surrealism, Dalí? Granted, I haven’t seen any Galaxy levels with melting clocks or anything, but then again, I don’t have a Wii...
I respect your opinion as well. A lot of fine, upstanding people love Mario 64. I'm just not one of them. The fact that you can appreciate the game actually makes me envy you, as I've been trying to like it for years with no luck.
But if you loved Mario 64, I figure you will also love Galaxy. It's like the hybrid of Mario 64 and Mario 3, which is more or less what any 3D Mario game should aspire to be.
I personally think that Galaxy, thus far, has pleanty of Dali level weirdness. But I have always thought the basic Super Mario concepts of floating question mark blocks, throwing turtle shells at other turtles to kill them, giant killer mushrooms with made up of nothing but their but a heads and their legs, all these things are as strange as the content of any Dali painting.
Mario games have always presented these things in a cute and harmless light, but imagine any of them happening in real life and you've got yourself some pretty screwed up hallucinations.
As for Galaxy though, I'd say it's much more reminiscent of MC Esher than Dali. Though not by much.
wtf...most of the things you wrote about galaxy are utter bullshit. most of the planets are freakin huge. there are barely any small spherical planets.
star bits are not power ups (they dont change mario at all) and there arebarely any powerups throughout the game. the most used one is the bee suit because it's used in TWO levels
also...generic snow level? Who do you think generic games copied from? SUPER MARIO 64. and seriously....how is a fucking 20 meter snake in the water with a retard face (idunno if they were eels) NOT weird?
about the fighting in SM64...if just pressed B, you'd be prawned by goombas in the huge gap that the attacks left
right now, you're just in the "i love this game" stage. i finished it last week, and i'm telling you. Super Mario 64 beats Galaxy by a fair amount of win.
Why the fuck is everyone acting like Mario Sunshine didn't come out? Did everyone besides me hate that game so much that now we're all going to pretend that this is the first Mario game since SM64 (Like a certain yahoo.com reviewer did, but subsequently fixed by omitting fans have "waited for 11 years for this game")
Okay, so I wasn't lying. I just got back from the store with a copy in my hands. I was going to wait till after Christmas to buy this, but you described what I'd been waiting to hear about the game. And since we have such similar tastes I knew I could count on your word as gospel. If no one hears from me in a couple of weeks, don't call the police. I'm just playing Mario.
Also, I agree with your points on Mario 64. I actually loved that game, but many of the things you pointed out, in retrospect, are dissapointing and they did cheapen the experience. I just bought my copy of Mario Galaxy today, but have a huge test this week and studying is a must, so no play til weekend, but I hope I enjoy it as much as you.
i guess 64 was a dramatic leap, but i was young enough to venture on without knowing i was venturing.
i played a little bit of galaxies today, and i liked it, it was wonderfully odd and trippy, and the planet system was interesting. i didn't get enough time to really get a "mario" feel from it though.
OK Braulio, maybe Galaxy will get worse, but for the first 3 hours it's been awesome. I'm not far enough into the game to even know what a "comet star" is, so I yeild to your superior knowledge of the game. If Galaxy turns out to be more like Mario 64 as I go along, then I guess that's too bad.
And I'm sorry, but you're totally off base when it comes to Mario 64. Mario 64 didn't originate much other than the bland 3D platforming craze of the late 90's. Fighting a giant eel is not surreal. That's just a sci-fi channel original movie in game form. And snow levels have been generic since the NES days.
From the sounds of it you weren't born yet during that time, so I forgive you.
And Brosef, I actually like Sunshine a lot more that Mario 64. Even though the levels in Sunshine have less personality than most Mario games, they at least have a unique personality, unlike Mario 64 which had little to no original areas what so ever.
And the Fludd was an awesome power up. Maybe not awesome enough to constitute and entire game built around it, but awesome none the less.
@Tron
I agree with your assessment of Sunshine. I actually started getting annoyed with it and decided NOT to beat it after watching a friend beat it (weird, eh?). Usually I beat games regardless, but I just lost interest in this one. But I disagree with you on Mario 64. I loved that game so much I collected 120 stars....twice.
Just had to check to make sure Sunshine wasn't some game delusion I had. Thanks guy ^_^
Brosef, do you disagree with me about "the five 2D Mario essentials" I think Mario 64 was missing, or just my feeling about Mario 64 in general?
If you don't care about those five essentials because you either did not grow up with 2D Marios or whatever, then I could easily see how Mario 64 could be your favorite game ever.
I want to read but havent played galaxy yet and Im a total asshole when it comes to spoilers..... but will come back! I like your general outlook on stuff, I think youre the only guy that did not support sonic in brawl otehr than myself, I was a fan after that....
Excellent Tron.... I was so uninterested in Mario 64 that I'd only played it for the first time about 2 years ago when I got a new roommate who had an old N64 with Mario 64. I was unemployed at the time so I had all the time in the world to play it, and I never made it beyond the "infinite staircase" part of the castle as I had lost interest at that point. The levels were generic, the life bar and fist fighting were out of place, and it was fucking impossibly frustrating to fly with that stupid fucking hat!
I actually do disagree with you on both points and it's not because I didn't "grow up with 2D Marios". I'm 24 and I am well acquainted with every single Mario installment on their original format (excluding Lost Levels which I only played via All-Stars on SNES).
#1 - Levels shouldn't be linear in a 3D world. This would have been DISASTROUS. The great thing about Mario 64 is that the levels were friggin' huge and original with each level containing its own individual theme. In the side-scrolling Mario you had Worlds that were themed with numerous redundant levels, but with Mario 64 every painting was it's own little insane world. Which leads me to my next point:
#4 - How can you say that the levels of Mario 64 weren't "insane" or "surreal". There was Little-Big World, a level in a Clock, a level with nothing but clouds, a wacky Underground Cave with illogical mazes and obstacles (with a Loch-Ness Monster!), and Bowser levels that were infinitely more creative than any dungeon level from any 2-D Mario game (close call on Super MArio World). These levels were mind-blowing as a kid who grew up on Mario.
#2 There was the Wing Hat, the Metal Hat, and the Invisible Hat (or some name like that). Outside of not being frequent enough in the game I don't see your point. Why increase the frequency of these power-ups if their abilities are specific only to certain situations or presenting overkill (any kid who was any good at Mario 3 or Mario World could fly over half the levels....)
#3- Mario 64 was littered with bottomless pits on the second half of the game. One-hit kills would've made an already challenging game into a mind-melting, controller snapping, swear fest of impossibility. The game was easy to start with, but getting 120 Stars was a beotch. And you did die on 3 hits usually which would fall under the 1-3 hits margin listed.
#5- How the hell did you get lost in Mario 64? Regardless, you CAN get lost in 2-D Mario games. Did you never make it to the castle in the "lights out" section of World 8 in Mario 3? You know, the one with dozens and dozens of doors that led to nowhere. There seems to be one I faintly remember doing the same in Super Mario World but I can't remember where exactly.
You also failed to mention the badass innovations that Mario 64 created: The winged caps were incredible, the monstrosity of the levels, the length of gameplay, the innovative breakthrough in controls (which 3-D platformers now mimic), the glory of completion (Yoshi, triple flip) not just a damn cake and roll credits, but close, and finally the cannons - how the hell did you forget the cannons? That was the best part?
Well Brosef, you've convinced me. I'll give Mario 64 year another try.
I'm telling you, I really want to like it, but for years I've tried and for years it hasn't happened. I feel like Mario 64 is a sex lady, and I'm a middle aged man in need of viagra. I know I should be excited, but it just aint happening.
wtf...most of the things you wrote about galaxy are utter bullshit. most of the planets are freakin huge. there are barely any small spherical planets.
star bits are not power ups (they dont change mario at all) and there arebarely any powerups throughout the game. the most used one is the bee suit because it's used in TWO levels
also...generic snow level? Who do you think generic games copied from? SUPER MARIO 64. and seriously....how is a fucking 20 meter snake in the water with a retard face (idunno if they were eels) NOT weird?
about the fighting in SM64...if just pressed B, you'd be prawned by goombas in the huge gap that the attacks left
right now, you're just in the "i love this game" stage. i finished it last week, and i'm telling you. Super Mario 64 beats Galaxy by a fair amount of win.
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"Insane, surrealistic worlds"
Thats a BAD thing? Without out that kind of zany thinking, mario would never be in space. He'd just stay on overworld and occasionally underworld.
I heart insane, surrealistic worlds. Mario 64 had not, just the generic "Snow level", "Lava Level" and "Ice leve".
Blah blah blah.
BFF, for reals.
The only reasoning behind the original Marios in the first place was because the hardware that was operating the games back then was sub-par by anymeans compared the the leap they took when the 64 came out. It was the revolutionary introduction into a full 3-d Mario, something most fans had been waiting for for years. I don't totally understand your explanation, but on the same hand I think that the moment rpgs went into the 3-d world they lost a lot of integrity, they only gained graphics.
You also talk of not having enough "weirdness" that you'd come to love, but then you contradict yourself by also saying that one of the down factors being "Insanely surrealistic worlds"? That isn't weird? Just me wondering thinking thats a bit weird eh?
That's a matter of opinion. I thought that mario 64 had some very surreal levels and even the "ice level" etc. were all very well done and unconventional enough that it held my intrest to the end.
But i respect your opinion and can't wait to get my hands on a copy.
I respect your opinion as well. A lot of fine, upstanding people love Mario 64. I'm just not one of them. The fact that you can appreciate the game actually makes me envy you, as I've been trying to like it for years with no luck.
But if you loved Mario 64, I figure you will also love Galaxy. It's like the hybrid of Mario 64 and Mario 3, which is more or less what any 3D Mario game should aspire to be.
I personally think that Galaxy, thus far, has pleanty of Dali level weirdness. But I have always thought the basic Super Mario concepts of floating question mark blocks, throwing turtle shells at other turtles to kill them, giant killer mushrooms with made up of nothing but their but a heads and their legs, all these things are as strange as the content of any Dali painting.
Mario games have always presented these things in a cute and harmless light, but imagine any of them happening in real life and you've got yourself some pretty screwed up hallucinations.
As for Galaxy though, I'd say it's much more reminiscent of MC Esher than Dali. Though not by much.
star bits are not power ups (they dont change mario at all) and there arebarely any powerups throughout the game. the most used one is the bee suit because it's used in TWO levels
also...generic snow level? Who do you think generic games copied from? SUPER MARIO 64. and seriously....how is a fucking 20 meter snake in the water with a retard face (idunno if they were eels) NOT weird?
about the fighting in SM64...if just pressed B, you'd be prawned by goombas in the huge gap that the attacks left
right now, you're just in the "i love this game" stage. i finished it last week, and i'm telling you. Super Mario 64 beats Galaxy by a fair amount of win.
/galaxy hatezor
Cereal. What gives?
epic
Also, I agree with your points on Mario 64. I actually loved that game, but many of the things you pointed out, in retrospect, are dissapointing and they did cheapen the experience. I just bought my copy of Mario Galaxy today, but have a huge test this week and studying is a must, so no play til weekend, but I hope I enjoy it as much as you.
i played a little bit of galaxies today, and i liked it, it was wonderfully odd and trippy, and the planet system was interesting. i didn't get enough time to really get a "mario" feel from it though.
And I'm sorry, but you're totally off base when it comes to Mario 64. Mario 64 didn't originate much other than the bland 3D platforming craze of the late 90's. Fighting a giant eel is not surreal. That's just a sci-fi channel original movie in game form. And snow levels have been generic since the NES days.
From the sounds of it you weren't born yet during that time, so I forgive you.
And Brosef, I actually like Sunshine a lot more that Mario 64. Even though the levels in Sunshine have less personality than most Mario games, they at least have a unique personality, unlike Mario 64 which had little to no original areas what so ever.
And the Fludd was an awesome power up. Maybe not awesome enough to constitute and entire game built around it, but awesome none the less.
That is all.
I agree with your assessment of Sunshine. I actually started getting annoyed with it and decided NOT to beat it after watching a friend beat it (weird, eh?). Usually I beat games regardless, but I just lost interest in this one. But I disagree with you on Mario 64. I loved that game so much I collected 120 stars....twice.
Just had to check to make sure Sunshine wasn't some game delusion I had. Thanks guy ^_^
If you don't care about those five essentials because you either did not grow up with 2D Marios or whatever, then I could easily see how Mario 64 could be your favorite game ever.
That almost rhymed.
I'm hyped for Galaxy.
#1 - Levels shouldn't be linear in a 3D world. This would have been DISASTROUS. The great thing about Mario 64 is that the levels were friggin' huge and original with each level containing its own individual theme. In the side-scrolling Mario you had Worlds that were themed with numerous redundant levels, but with Mario 64 every painting was it's own little insane world. Which leads me to my next point:
#4 - How can you say that the levels of Mario 64 weren't "insane" or "surreal". There was Little-Big World, a level in a Clock, a level with nothing but clouds, a wacky Underground Cave with illogical mazes and obstacles (with a Loch-Ness Monster!), and Bowser levels that were infinitely more creative than any dungeon level from any 2-D Mario game (close call on Super MArio World). These levels were mind-blowing as a kid who grew up on Mario.
#2 There was the Wing Hat, the Metal Hat, and the Invisible Hat (or some name like that). Outside of not being frequent enough in the game I don't see your point. Why increase the frequency of these power-ups if their abilities are specific only to certain situations or presenting overkill (any kid who was any good at Mario 3 or Mario World could fly over half the levels....)
#3- Mario 64 was littered with bottomless pits on the second half of the game. One-hit kills would've made an already challenging game into a mind-melting, controller snapping, swear fest of impossibility. The game was easy to start with, but getting 120 Stars was a beotch. And you did die on 3 hits usually which would fall under the 1-3 hits margin listed.
#5- How the hell did you get lost in Mario 64? Regardless, you CAN get lost in 2-D Mario games. Did you never make it to the castle in the "lights out" section of World 8 in Mario 3? You know, the one with dozens and dozens of doors that led to nowhere. There seems to be one I faintly remember doing the same in Super Mario World but I can't remember where exactly.
You also failed to mention the badass innovations that Mario 64 created: The winged caps were incredible, the monstrosity of the levels, the length of gameplay, the innovative breakthrough in controls (which 3-D platformers now mimic), the glory of completion (Yoshi, triple flip) not just a damn cake and roll credits, but close, and finally the cannons - how the hell did you forget the cannons? That was the best part?
Long comment is long.
I'm telling you, I really want to like it, but for years I've tried and for years it hasn't happened. I feel like Mario 64 is a sex lady, and I'm a middle aged man in need of viagra. I know I should be excited, but it just aint happening.
Maybe I really am Mr Gay....
star bits are not power ups (they dont change mario at all) and there arebarely any powerups throughout the game. the most used one is the bee suit because it's used in TWO levels
also...generic snow level? Who do you think generic games copied from? SUPER MARIO 64. and seriously....how is a fucking 20 meter snake in the water with a retard face (idunno if they were eels) NOT weird?
about the fighting in SM64...if just pressed B, you'd be prawned by goombas in the huge gap that the attacks left
right now, you're just in the "i love this game" stage. i finished it last week, and i'm telling you. Super Mario 64 beats Galaxy by a fair amount of win.
and i played the ending of the NES games and a lot of SNES
p.s. didnt mean the eels were surreal. just weird and retarded looking, and you were lookiing for weird