I know I'm late with this, but really didn't have time earlier and still feel like having something said. (Because this is The Internet and Here We Have Opinions!)
So. Diablo 3. Excited? I am. And I might aswell have this said here and now: I love the old Diablo games (the first one in particular), and I will buy the third one, and it will be good. You got that, understood it? Sweeet.
Now. There was a
certain petition... You've read about that one, haven't ya.
I actually feel like defending the "petitioners" here. Mostly because of the enormous and mostly undeserved amount of flak they've had to take. However, I will also have to say this before I go on: I am, as they are, fully aware that we've only seen
one,
early gameplay video. Things might change; this might not be the final art direction, or it might "start off" like this and become really cool as you progress in the game. It might!
But it might also not. So let's
discuss it, let Blizzard be 100% aware of what exactly the people who care wants, and if there's a time to do that, it is now. I can not count on fingers and toes how many times I've seen the argument "Geez guys the game's not even done yet why are you complaining already?".
I'll quote a guy on a forum (and there will be lots of quoting "guys" on "forums"; I'm really not going to keep track of exactly who said what and where.)
He said: "
If we dont voice our opinions, how will they know [...]? The sooner we say it the sooner they know." End quote. And he's right. It's really simple!
So, moving on. What are these people actually saying, and
what aren't they?
The latter really seems to be a big problem here.
"
You only want gray and brown in your games! You hate color!"
"
You want it to be pitch black at all times!"
I mean come on. Really? If you think that's what they're saying, you really haven't even read it. It's just hyperbole you know, cringeworthy exaggerations. I really like the title of Kotaku's item: "Diablo Fans Petition Against Diablo III".
Nice. That totally isn't a first impression that has people making incorrect assumptions before reading further!
Most of the so-called "whining",
does not even exist.
There were like five billion threads and posts about this so I obviously haven't seen close to all of it, but from what I have seen, the people
for the art change - and "art change" sounds really harsh but it absolutely isn't, it's more of a "touch-up" - the people for it have been civilized. They have good ideas and arguments that do not deserve flaming. One may
disagree - fine! - but flaming the entire idea and everyone who supports it is just uncalled for.
Below are a couple of quotes that I feel describe fairly well what they are going for.
"
By dark we're implying dark atmosphere, gritty, evil. Not dark as in "turn your brightness down", although sometimes that
dark works in particularly scary parts".
"
I dont think people want it stripped of its color just grittier. I think people just dont phrase what they say properly. [...] I think the outside dosnt need to be that saturated but I do think dungeons do."
"
It was a great aspect of diablo that you could only see what your character would be able to see. Mobs around corners were hidden until you went around the corner. Rooms stayed dark until your character could light them. The unknown created a great deal of tension."
And saying basically the same thing,
"
Part of the reason Diablo was so much fun in the first places is because you're facing a horde of hellish enemies you can't even see until they're right upon you, scaring you shitless. There's nothing like turning a corner with no idea what's around it, and the images of dungeons so far
, seem to have forgotten that."
I like this one:
"
As a point of interest, I'd like to point out how the magic spells in Diablo and Diablo II were bright and colourful. These give the feeling that the arcane really had meaning in the world and you felt truly powerful wielding these abilities that bring the light of justice to the corrupt world of Diablo. If in Diablo III all the spells are equally bright to your sunlit and green painted dungeons, where's that feeling of majesty in wielding magic?"
And I want to comment on that one. I totally get what he's saying, and I agree. There are so many new games with advanced graphics that just seem to think that magic is something bright and blurry, like green'ish and blue'ish and yellow'ish "poffs" and smooth streams and stuff, and unless that's a friggin' healing spell, it's just hard to take seriously. "Ooh what's this slow and fluffy pink sensation - it kind of tickles a bit!" "...Oh, it's an attack spell...?"
Screw that! I mean Diablo 1; you have a dark dungeon and a badass dark ambient theme keeping the suspension, and you unleash a
chain lightning. It's got sharp contours, it's pure no-bullshit white, and it's got a sharp electric sound. Your
friends fear getting in the way of that shit!
That's an attack spell!
Also, let me just read this scroll of Apocalypse...
A short one:
"
The dead bodies disappear in something like a hundredth of the time they should be disappearing in."
Well, to me they shouldn't be disappearing at all; as far as I remember, they didn't use to, and the trail of corpses is something that brings both atmosphere and satisfaction.
A couple of longer quotes, but also some of the better ones (in my opinion!), touching more on actual color and the WarCraft 3 / World of WarCraft comparisons...
This one after basically a thread full of "oh geez these people just want boring lifeless games with no color":
"
You can do the whole brown-backlash shtick again if you want, but we don't need more super-deformed, unnaturally-animated, blue-green WC3/WoW-style games either, especially when WC3 already did the Diablo-style dungeon-crawl thing with its indoor missions. Let Diablo have its "browns"."
I agree, and call me crazy but there does certainly not seem to me like there's a shortage in games with color in them. It's a pretty weak argument these days. If it's not We Love Katamari, it doesn't mean it's Gears of War... Also, again, it's not color that is the "problem", it's how it's used. I played through Diablo 1 literally (4?) days ago, and there were monsters coming at me that were completely yellow, red and blue, and puddles of blood, lava and acid hardly blurred in with the backgrounds either.
"
One thing we gotta remember is that Warcraft was always a more colorful game.
However, Diablo has always been dark, with lots of blacks and grittiness. [...]
why change a good thing to the "more popular" WoW-like palette?"
"
Dark palettes *are* appropriate sometimes, despite the blanket complaints by people on the "games are too brown" bandwagon. There are plenty of bright and colorful games out there that you can play instead."
Here's a long but very well written one:
"
I just read their argument about "color is your friend" or whatever. I'm not exactly sure if they understand what fans are complaining about (or what I hope they are complaining about). It's not about bringing as many colors to the table as possible for "contrast"... (because that's not exactly what contrast is about) And as long as that is what they are going for... I guess I need to bring an issue up.
Every good artist knows you can have a good palette with LOTS of colors, but what's more important is if a palette has a FOCUS, a feel that you are going for. Diablo II had lots of colors, many different environments, a huge palette... But it also had focus, and I think it utilized its colors well.
I don't mind all of those screenshots, and yeah it is too early to tell at this point, but some of those screens I see tell me that I don't like their focus (or lack thereof)...
Yeah okay, any person familiar with Color Theory knows that green and purple are compliments... Whoopti doo Blizzard! I don't want neon green lighting contrasted by purple in dungeons. Orange and yellow go nicely with BLUE...oh my! But what about the natural contrast between black and white? Shadow and Light? I don't want a million colors that amount to a neutral tone mudfest outdoors either. Focus on the lights and shadows please, you can have AMAZING looks without using all of the colors of the rainbow from your bag of skittles. It's just about choosing the right ones.
Diablo is about Heaven and Hell, angels and demons, with bones and death and destruction and blood... That's where the focus is... That's what they should be trying to depict as accurately and artistically as possible. They have the right to do whatever they want, however I'd like to hope their main objective is to please the fans that have waited years for the next game, and honor the previous two titles. Anyway I'm not really complaining, I'm just bringing up an issue that should be pretty much a given when art direction for any game is factored in."
I think that's enough. These people, like me, are after an
experience and that includes
everything; the great story that Diablo has, the perfectly fitting music, the gameplay...
And the graphics.
I read that petition, and while I thought it could certainly have been better written, I saw some of the edited images and
immediately signed.
I look at the gameplay video, and it looks
good. If the game releases looking like that, I and most people will buy, play, and love the game. I wasn't, and am not, "unhappy" with how it looks.
But I look at the edited images... And they look
even better. The relatively simple Photoshop edits - sharpness, contrast, saturation, levels and so on - add
so much. Things look more solid, like they have more weight; metal looks sharper and
actually dangerous. There's an edit of the huge Siege boss that perfectly describes what I'm talking about. Watching the edited version makes me think and feel things that did not appear when watching the gameplay video.
Here's a gigantic boss right, he's clearly strong and mean and dishes out a fair amount of damage. I'm "wow'ed", and know that I should be afraid and "kind of" am, but with the edited image, I
do fear the creature, and I
see why. His entire body feels more heavy and solid, including even the skin. Those teeth, are
sharp. As is the blade which now looks sturdier. The thing he has on his head now looks like it would hurt.
Also noticeable is the ground. Those are suddenly cold, hard, unforgiving stone tiles, rather than "wet stone tiles".
Everything no longer looks like it's covered in a small, blurry pointless fog which, speaking of boring, is exactly how it makes it looks. The edited version may be darker, but I definitely wouldn't say it's any less clear.
So anyway, this has turned out quite long now, but I think I've said what I wanted. Don't just dismiss people as boring or dumb or whatever when they just want to try and make a sequel be as good as it can be - in
their view, based on previous games and the atmosphere they had and the impression they left. And
please don't see whine where there is none.
Oh and I just checked the petition again, wow... When a friend told me about it on MSN, there were four thousand votes and I actually said on a forum basically that "yeah I signed it but whatever, four K votes isn't really going to lift any eyebrows at Blizzard", but uh, looking at it now they're up in
fifty thousand votes and while that might still accomplish just about nothing, there clearly are a couple of dudes and dudettes out there who wouldn't mind some tweaking... Speaking of tweaking, if you feel like suggesting that people just lower the gamma on their monitors, please don't... None of the fifty witty boys who already did that were funny either.
That's all for me, thanks. Just think about it, maybe post your opinions, don't senselessly flame your gaming brethren and most importantly, buy it when it's released because it's going to be good!
Jesus, this is long.
I disagree that color has to be removed to create the correct dungeon crawling atmosphere. Colors don't have to disappear or become reduced to black/white to create contrast.
The problems would be solved with the return of the light radius and fog effects.
We've seen 2 areas and have no clue as to whether or not:
A) The light radius and environmental effects are in development but not finished yet.
B) They intentionally removed any excessive shadows contrasting lighting to highlight areas for the announcement video!
C) The areas shown are intentionally bright to create an exaggerated sense of doom in all following areas.
Even Diablo 2 had varied (and plentiful) outdoors area color pallets featuring yellow sand, green marsh, fiery pits.
Each "example picture" shown in the petition that reduces the color contrast is another reason for me to disagree with the major ideas for which it's pushing.
Dungeons can and should be dark, but that doesn't mean the color has to disappear as well.
Also, there's a reason corpses disappear, and it's not because they're trying to make the game less mature.
Covered most of that but didn't know A/B/C for fact (though assumed so), very nice!
The reason corpses disappear is also obvious; no less a shame though. Would be cool with a simple option to let players decide how many / for how long they should stay according to their hardware though (as many FPS games have done since forever).
To each his own regarding original/edited images! :)
Yeah regarding what you wrote about A/B/C, it's 10.30am and I misread. Curses! Still guessing and hoping it's like you said though.
Because a bunch of kids know better than Blizzard, amirite
Well, I don't know them for fact either, but my point is that no one does!
I think now is the most appropriate time for fans to voice their opinion about what we've seen, but there's an undue amount of hostility in their comments.
If we know so little about the game and its design, there's absolutely no need for that hostility.
There are only 2 pictures that were edited that I partially agree with:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2zqr9yx.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/frostwake/Diablo32.jpg
(Both are outdoors because I believe there's got to be a layer of unfinished environmental effects missing from the very early video we've seen so far)
The indoor edited images are far too extreme though, in my opinion. I truly think the colors can remain - but a claustrophobic sense of shadows (read: light radius) should be added.
Also, there has to be something incomplete about the overpowering haze found in both environments shown.
That said, if Blizzard has/had no intentions of continuing development with a dark theme, I do hope they listen to the overly-zealous protesters to know how important keeping a dungeon crawling game dark is.
Note: I'm not accusing you of being one of the overly hostile people...
Also, here are some examples of edited pictures with which I completely disagree!:
http://i27.tinypic.com/vep6ix.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/2jexp1x.jpg
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7807/itshouldrh5.jpg
This one still needlessly removes far too much color, but I like how it shows the light radius!:
http://i31.tinypic.com/2zta5o7.jpg
I want a game that looks next gen :D
I like the new Diablo look, here kittens
How gracious of you!
Though, this is either an indescribably cute offering of universally accepted happiness...
...or a metaphor for the new art style hidden-in-plain-sight after a sarcastic remark!?!?
Mmm, sleeping completed.
Yeah I don't like the ones you posted as examples you disagree with either; there are a bunch of images that are awesome and a bunch that are just dark for the sake of dark and those obviously fail.
Re: Unnecessary hostility, that's exactly what I'm saying they've been receiving but I literally have not seen them be (at all!), so it must be a question of where people have been reading and unfortunately, as was a large theme in my post, I think a lot of that hostility is imagined/made up/expected but not actually there. But yeah there are always less great personalities in every camp so if one was unlucky and only saw people who can't express themselves / actually are dribbling idiots who aggressively wants to "maek it dark omG!1" it might look different.
"Dungeons can and should be dark, but that doesn't mean the color has to disappear as well."
Completely agree, but. There was color in Diablo 1, quite bright and even extreme ones in a lot of places and you always saw what was going on (and when you didn't it made it cool / scary); thing is though, they were not the "modern" green and blue/purple that it mystifies me how caves with mostly no source of light sans a couple of torches etc. are. I guess it's possible depending on what materials are down there, but really. I'm not afraid or tense when I'm walking in an environment like that, and that's what it's all about. As someone said, there are many ways to imply that something is dark, and throwing purple shadows and stuff is more of a cartoon-like way to do it.
Thanks for being civil though! Was really just expecting hate on this one based on how people were acting in basically all news posts about the petition when it was new. This is just the type of calm discussing and opinion voicing that it would be great if people would stick to instead of flaming and swearing and being constantly sarcastic and shit.
Speaking of sarcasm... I really don't think that's a good argument king3vbo. Almighty Blizzard, who I personally respect as the best at what they do so far (not exaggerating), still employ mere mortals including their main art guy. Thing is, as far as I've understood it, the old Diablo guy/s/ left and the new guy comes from the game that this now has clear (not super many, but clear) similarities with. Those are design choices that may have suited the other game/s/ perfectly, but this game not so perfectly according to atleast around 50.000 players opinions.
Oh and thank you Arttemis for not "accusing me" of being overly hostile because I really am not close to as bothered as one may conclude from seeing these gargantuan posts (I'm just weird).
As said; if the game ships and looks like it does already now, I'm down with it. The angle I'm coming from is simply the one that I saw a bunch of really into it fans make suggestions and a petition (without any hostility), and then a bunch of sites (including this one that I like very much) and most of the users shit all over them. Not cool.
I love this pic.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/frostwake/Diablo31.jpg
I really don't give a shit whether Diablo is bright and sunshiney or a dark and moonshiney. All I want is to be able to slaughter creatures until my mouse disintegrates.
You're an asshole, you've never done any art for games in your life and yet you feel a need to tell professionals how to act on their vision.
You don't walk into a painter's studio and tell him which brush to use. Don't be that guy.
While not perfect, I am fairly sure I'm not an asshole nor deserving that label thank you very much. However you do fairly well illustrate what I'm talking about...
If this is a studio, it is one where two professional painters reside and as they are making this specifically to sell, they might be interested in what people like. We are hoping and asking for stuff we'd like to see and it really is not more dramatic than this.
By two artists I mean what Blizzard is doing and what fans are doing, and that we can point and say what we like more. Should probably wait until the movie is over until I try typing :) Third doublepost in a row, hot damn.
Now that more time has passed, I completely agree with your statement that the majority of the hostility is coming from people who'd like to keep the original 'art style'.
Filling in black voids with a blue hue is a pretty lame way of "adding color" to a new game.