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Segragating the Online Community - My Opinion
Timmeh | 4:28 AM on 09.01.2008 31 comments


After listening to the discussion of online communities at PAX one question in particular stuck in my head - that of 'minority groups' like women or gay people forming their own communities within gaming. Anyone who has spent any time in a multiplayer game with voice comms can appreciate why these particular groups may feel they want to seek out like-minded people to play online with, but is that really the right way to go about things? Will removing yourself from the community as a whole and restricting interactions for the most part to a smaller sub-group really ever change anything?



We've all heard those racial, gender or sexuality specific slurs flying around on LIVE. Some people say "Oh well, there's nothing you can do about it" or "That's just trash talking, if you don't like it stay off the internet". Those people are wrong. While I have no problem with trash talk, any time it enters into personal attacks you have crossed the line. Using race, gender or sexuality in any other environment as an insult would land you in big trouble so why is it accepted online? As we get older we should be showing a greater degree of maturity and responsibility in our online interactions as we undoubtedly do in every day life, but this doesn't seem to be the case. With younger people spending more and more time online this becomes ever more important but is largely ignored or laughed off. Children in any environment will take their cues on how to behave from their peers (us), by ignoring or laughing at their behaviour in games you are reinforcing the idea that while unacceptable in real life, it is okay or positively encouraged for them to be abusive in online communities.

So where do these groups come into it? For me, simply walling yourself off and not dealing with this disgusting behaviour is a cop out and does nothing to help the situation. How are we to expect this behaviour to change (and it can change) if nobody is willing to take steps to do anything about it? Like many others, I'm totally okay with someone insulting my game and my skills, that's trash talking and a part of any competitive activity. However, when the line is crossed and it degrades into personal attacks I make use of the report function. You may say so what? You'd be somewhat justified, because on my own I make very little difference, but if more people were to recognise offensive language for what it is those using it might start to think twice. When their reputation is seriously reduced and they are being habitually kicked or excluded from games and potentially facing repercussions from the network owner (i.e. Microsoft for LIVE), those people might start to realise they maybe shouldn't be yelling abusive garbage over their microphone.



For this to happen, groups like female gamers and gay gamers need to spend more time interacting with mixed audiences like Destructoid's or befriending the non-assholes they find on LIVE not less. For some, the behaviour that causes one person to avoid random matchups might be a little coarse sometimes, but it's always aimed at the other guy. Even when words like 'fag' are tossed around, it isn't the target who feels particularly insulted - it's the group of people who are 'fags' that are being told that they must be doing something bad or wrong in some way for labels to be attached to them that carry negative connotations. If that target regularly had some kind of interaction with those groups their reaction might be slightly different - wth people they know being insulted they may be more inclined to do something about it. By making it more personal, these attacks might be seen for what they are, rather than an acceptable part of online gaming.

Flynn mentioned that these types of communities are no different than sites like Go Nintendo but I would argue that point. GoNintendo.com or Xbox360fanboy are communities that are united by a common interest they want to discuss. GayGamer or GamerchiX, by contrast are no different to me saying I only want to discuss games with other heterosexual white males. In fact that last statement actually comes off as very negative, making me sound like a bigoted asshole doesn't it? In an ideal world such groups wouldn't be necessary. We may never live in an ideal world but by marginalising and segregating yourself voluntarily you are doing nothing to help.

A little long but hey, at least I included pictures!



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27 comments | showing # 1 to 27
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SurplusGamer's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 06:24
SurplusGamer
Quite an interesting post there. I'm not sure the level of segregation is such as you say. The communities exist, but I'm not sure they're so much a walled-off safehaven as just a place to see another perspective. Certainly I'm gay but I never felt the need to do more than visit that website once in a while, and I'm sure it's under plenty of people's radars. People who ARE members of that community are not necessarily exclusively so. If I suddenly felt a burning need to be a bigger part of that community I wouldn't stop engaging with Destructoid, it would just be another thing I do.

I think you're talking about a very small group of people who really do see those communities as their only escape from all the abuse. As for me, if someone calls me a fag online I just say 'Well, you'd know, after that night of passion we had. How was it for you?' or something to that effect. Wasting my breath, of course.
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 06:25
Jim Sterling
THANK YOU.

Glad to see I am not alone in this. Self-imposed segregation is still segregation, something that people should want to avoid rather than embrace. I also find it highly vulgar to identify yourself by where you choose to dip your wick or what color your skin is. Those are not supposed to be things chained to your identity, they should be inconsequential facets of a broader personality.

Nothing but respect for the people at Gay Gamer (and no idea who Gamerchix are) but I have never liked the term "gay gamer" being some sort of badge.
Alasdair Duncan's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 06:26
Alasdair Duncan
I don't think the last statement is negative, I think it's unfortunate that any kind of minority in gaming feels the need to exist in some kind of self-imposed exile. It's not a bad thing to mix with people who have a different gender or sexuality. But yeah, in an ideal world we wouldn't need gaming sites and communities targeted to different demographics, but that's true for society as a whole.

It's funny when some 14 year old prick calls me a "fag" online. I usually let them know that I'll have to inform my wife, as she always thought I was straight.
Timmeh's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 06:41
Timmeh
Surplusgamer: While writing this I was very aware of the fact that a lot of gamers who happen to be female/gay avoid interacting with the wider community and was in two minds whether to post this.

One thing I considered was that since joining Destructoid, most of the people added from my friends list have been from Destructoid and I increasingly use that when I want to guarantee I won't be playing with dicks. I think this stands true for any community and so there will be plenty of people who may, albeit unwittingly, start to reduce their interactions with the general population in favour of their friends list (which just happens to be filled with acquaintances from one of the many sites limited to one sub-group).

Jim: I've grown up with people of other races or sexual preferences around me so it's generally a non-issue to me and I too generally find it pretty distasteful when people use it as some sort of identifying feature or personality trait that describes every part of their being. People shouldn't confuse who they are with what they are.
Maurice Tan's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 06:57
Maurice Tan
The XBL/PSN trashtalking and online trashtalking with racial and sexual slurs is a tough one. I don't mind being called a fag or a n*gger myself, since you can just go "heh" and brush it off as a non-black straight guy. When people go off about asians etc, I usually just remind them how they own all of your dollars and it turns silent.

For communities, I'd rather see them accepted and mixed in any of them. Dtoid has a couple of gay people in the community and I don't think anyone here cares what kind of sexual preference they have. Hell, most of us here probably have enough crazy porn to make up for it. Then again, we always try to find the community that feels the most home to us.

UNLESS SOMEONE BEATS THEIR DEADLINE SCORE!
Alasdair Duncan's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 07:07
Alasdair Duncan
Just remembered my mate e-mailed me this, which he saw on the Tube in London:



Pretty much sums up my feelings....
The Duke's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 07:59
The Duke
No offence everyone, but the day you can choose to play people from your country only would be a good day for Xbox Live. Americans in general are so abusive to absolutely everyone that isn't from the US, and I'm sick to the back teeth of it. Being called a tea drinking, crumpet eating, dentist needing, queen loving british fag every five minutes does not an enjoyable experience make.
I'm not saying all americans are this way, but it basically the experience I've had from 90% of them. GIVE ME THE OPTION TO NEVER HAVE TO PLAY WITH THEM. Thanks Microsoft.
SurplusGamer's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:17
SurplusGamer
Oh, please. This discussion has taken a turn for the slightly disappointing. Can we get back onto the topic, rather than arguing about whose whiny 14 year olds are better? I'm sure Timmeh would appreciate it.

Here's the thing... maybe there is this big sort of subculture of 'gay gamers' who only play with their kind, and maybe that's a little sad but I'm not sure that it's anything to worry about. I'm fairly sure the vast majority are willing to play with anyone who isn't a total idiot - and as Timmeh points out, there are ways to increase your hit rate with non-idiots.
The Duke's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:29
The Duke
@Reaprar

Obviously you haven't grasped my point. I don't have a problem with american kiddies who don't know any better squeeking their abuse. I'm talking about "Mature" american ADULTS who definitely should know better than to be egotistical, prejudicial, racist pieces of shit. Most of the time it makes me laugh because generally the countries that reer racism and prejudice are usually the most badly educated and misinformed countries, so what does that say about you?
I will also take it that you're one of them from your usage of the word fag in multiple places of your comment.
VWGTI's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:30
VWGTI
Awesome write up, man. I agree with you. Playing online can be a very unenjoyable experience thanks to people who don't know how to control themselves. That's why I avoid online altogether.
VWGTI's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:38
VWGTI
I will also take it that you're one of them from your usage of the word fag in multiple places of your comment.

Reaprar isn't American, he's European.
aborto thefetus's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:40
aborto thefetus
@The Duke

You know what I hate more than people trashtalking on xbox live? People that single out a whole country and calls them morons. By doing this you are doing EXACTLY what they did to you. I've seen idiots from all countries, not just America. Calling people from one country idiots based on your interactions on XBL is just plain idiotic. Almost everybody acts like idiots on XBL.
The Duke's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:47
The Duke
If you read my earlier comment you'd see I said 90% of the americans I've played are like that. Seriously. There are some nice ones, such as the guys I work with at pwnordie, but generally the American Xbox Live community is saturated with racist intolerant assholes and you know I'm correct.
I would be happy to sacrifice not playing with the few good ones in return for never having to hear american abuse again.
Sorry but that's my opinion.
Gameboi's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 09:49
Gameboi
Nice writeup.
Timmeh's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 10:27
Timmeh
Total thread derailment alert! I appreciate people reading this but notionality isn't something I even mentioned or believe to be much of a factor. Some of the most explicit language I've heard was from two British 10 year olds talking about how they were going to rape their respective families in the ass. But I digress.

My point is that accepting and avoiding this behaviour does nothing to alleviate it - it isn't acceptable and if anything, promoting the idea that some people simply can't play with the general populace (as a couple of panelists suggested) does more harm than good.

The Destructoid blogs pride themselves on being 'self-moderated', perhaps that same mentality should be applied to online gaming too. I was surprised at first by the behaviour of some people, given that my experience from PC gaming was that being a twat got you pretty damn swiftly booted and banned from the server you were on and in some cases any other server with which they were affiliated. I then come to LIVE where I find the same behaviour is a part of every day life or encouraged 'for the lulz'.
Timmeh's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 10:36
Timmeh
nationality*
Atlas's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 10:42
Atlas
I usually have games I play set on "friendly fire" and proceed to rape all the jackasses on my team. Sometimes the whole team gangs up on them til they quit, it's hilarious.
Hoodie's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 10:52
Hoodie
I don't see anything wrong with being a part of a gay online community. You have to choose your online friends somehow, and some gay gamers find they have a natural affinity based on shared experiences, etc. I don't think there's any reason for people to feel threatened by this. And people want to play games to have fun, not recreate the struggles they face in everyday life. Homophobia is everywhere, and sometimes you just don't want to deal with it.

Even here on Destructoid I have seen people use "gay" in a derogatory fashion and nobody says a word. I usually call the person out but I'm usually the only one. It's happened a lot.

Maybe the solution is for people to take action against people saying racist and homophobic things even if they themselves are not queer or non-white. Why should the gay gamers have to fan out into some kind of internet PC police force?
Timmeh's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 11:35
Timmeh
Argh, website ate my comment!

@Hoodie
Why would someone fight another person\'s corner if they aren\'t even in it? If people can\'t personally relate to something it will rarely seem a big issue. Take all the horrible little white kids that live in my area (where you rarely see a black person). Their only interaction with black people is the hip hop/rap they listen to. Were they to socialise with actual black people they probably wouldn\'t throw the word n*gger out there in some universal, one-word-fits-all fashion.

I fully agree people should be more aware and active when it comes to any type of abusive language - as I said, I was surprised how bad it really is having been used to playing PC games online, where any decent server has a zero-tolerance policy on abusive players. Any bigotry would generally see someone get booted and persistant offenders get banned from that server and in some cases any they are affiliated with.

I also think that these groups for whom it is the biggest problem can\'t say \"This is a big issue, it\'s unacceptable and we shouldn\'t have to put up with it\" (like on the PAX panel) and then simply avoid it and limit who they interact with, be it through a website or other community.

While LIVE has some way to go in dealing with abusive players (I personally think their stance is fucking pathetic), if everyone shys away from the issue by sticking to their peer groups or laughing it off nothing will ever happen.
Y0j1mb0's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 12:40
Y0j1mb0
Finally... I get to comment on your blog.

Excellent write up Tim. Keep it up bro. As has been stated self segregation is still segregation. Good stuff.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 12:48
Tubatic
Decent write up.

Like an earlier commenter, I don't think that exclusivity persists for anyone in that game group for everyone there. Generalizations are always tricky. :)

I think Flynn's assessment is spot on. A group of people identify themselves as group of connected people. It could be family, gaming interest, love of a robot head, or wick dipping practices. From that common bond (brotherhood, commraderee, nationalism, family tie, etc) they share gaming together.

Its not that I, as a DToider, intentionally segregate myself from the general Quick Match public, or for example, Kotaku gamers. However, because of the common bond, I generally have more fun with them. Not that I can't have fun with others, but I know there's some like mindedness or shared experience from those Destructoid friends on my list.

On a seperate note, I think its very easy to down play the personal pride or specific experience that comes from being part of a minority group. Taking group commune or fellowship (for lack of a less serious sounding set of words) out of a person's life maybe just isn't as fun? In so much that someone that is in a majority group does not have to think about their differences in the Xbox community at large, someone playing in a minority group may take some pride/relief/just plain fun in finding that lack of minority awareness in being in a gamer group of that minority.
Rifter01's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 13:41
Rifter01
This is a very good article and relevant to our interests, (my g/f and I). Keep up the good work!
Alexradl's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 17:25
Alexradl
Excellent post, Timmeh. You summed up my thoughts perfectly. Really...I have nothing else to add :).
Aaron Mxy Yost's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 21:13
Aaron Mxy Yost
Nice read sir, and I agree with your sentiments.
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/01/2008 23:38
Sharpless
You missed Flynn's point, though. He wasn't saying that they should only visit GayGaymer or Gamerchix. He said that those sites were supplemental. They're havens for certain people, places to go where they can be around likeminded people. Not a healthy place to live, but a healthy place to visit. Nothing wrong with that.
Hoodie's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/02/2008 00:18
Hoodie
This could all be solved with friend codes.
PetiePal's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/03/2008 09:41
PetiePal
I'm getting sick of people throwing out the N word in COD4. I mean really if the guy just schooled your ass you should live up to sucking and not throw insults that make you look like an uneducated white piece of trash.
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