... it sounds interesting and you bring up some good points. For myself though it's mostly about the gameplay. A good plot helps make a better game, but decent gameplay is paramount. When I want "ideas" or emotions, I personally tend to turn to books or movies where it's mostly about ideas and emotions.
It does seem difficult for a video game to do both.
It does seem difficult for a video game to do both.
You bring up some great points about certain things that work in certain games, but I have to say that I disagree with you overall. I personally think that the place where indie games are right now is the ideal location; we have fantastic games entirely about gameplay (VVVVVV), games entirely about theme (Passage) and games that have both (Braid, Machinarium).
And I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to feel ridiculous guilt for killing colossi in Shadow of the Colossus. It's more that you're supposed to feel confused and a little bit bad. I don't think it's supposed to be like Passage.
And really? Paul Jackson's death?
And I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to feel ridiculous guilt for killing colossi in Shadow of the Colossus. It's more that you're supposed to feel confused and a little bit bad. I don't think it's supposed to be like Passage.
And really? Paul Jackson's death?
Like Elsa said, for indie more so then mainstream its all about the gameplay first and foremost followed by good level design. All the most popular indie games have these cave story, canabalt, noitu love 2, spunky. Even that "art house" game Dont look back had decent gameplay.
Just to clarify some things. Alright. Yes, there are lots and lots of great indie games out there, I probably should have clarified that I was talking more about "art games", or how this idea of the art game is finding its way in. In Shadow of the Colossus, it's all about ambiguity, you don't realise (SPOILERS GUYS) that you're really releasing an untold power until the very end END SPOILERS. What I was saying was that through its ambiguity came that players ability to form an opinion. I know when I started it was just a thrilling monster hunting romp, but there was a certain sadness, or emptiness that grew throughout the game. And yeah. COD. That game where you shoot things in the face until they die. This is an interesting one because I'm sure it was either quickly passed off, or shadowed by Modern Warfare 2, a game that really trivialised these moments. It made an interesting statement about how soldiers are just resources, numbers, and how your achievements were all in vain. But, as I said, the player just stopped caring.
Oh, and the whole gameplay is something I didn't really bring into this because a) this post was sort of a spiritual successor of another one that discussed that and b) I just wanted to focus one my original concept of "Contrived emotional experiences have less impact than those the player can establish themselves".
Oh, and the whole gameplay is something I didn't really bring into this because a) this post was sort of a spiritual successor of another one that discussed that and b) I just wanted to focus one my original concept of "Contrived emotional experiences have less impact than those the player can establish themselves".
Well, now that I've read all that, I want you to finish your game! Thank you for a thought provoking read.
I've been considering largely the dynamic of "internals vs. externals" - in many mediums, or even all aspects of life. Take something from the natural world, like a forest, or a dammed reservoir. To some, a reservoir might just make for a nice view, or a good spot to use a boat in. To others, an entire natural history might be observed... contemplation of what the landscape was like before the dam ... how it changed the habitat for animals in the area ... or even the "simplest" thing, like a stump in the forest, might be little more than a sitting spot for smoking ganja, or with stricter observation, one might identify the species, determine the age of the tree, and ponder its relation to its surroundings. The natural world: very broad.
In contrast, many films: very contrived to reach an "intended impact," as you say. The biggest blockbusters generally seem to shoot for this: how many conclusions can one come to about the resource-exploiting commander in Avatar? That's not to say that the emotional impact you feel when the blue guys take down a fleet of mechanized 'bots isn't valid, but it's pretty straightforward. A Scorcese picture like Raging Bull, full of subtlety and ripe for scene-by-scene analysis, might be a bit broader, somehow: the "externals" don't change, like any film - but the ability to look deeper might reveal much more about the characters than first expected. It is well directed, in my opinion, and gets better with every re-watch - but that's me. Others might dismiss it as shallow and violent. Taking it even further, most David Lynch films are COMPLETELY open to interpretation, yet what is on the screen is the same for everyone.
For that matter, stories themselves may largely be intended to elicit a specific emotional response.
So video games have a strange combination of inherently allowing manipulation of what is on the screen, but still forcing you along some constraints, often tied to some story. Yes, the death of Eli Vance definitely falls into the "intended impact" category. Shadow of the Colossus is an interesting example - it's been a few years since I played it, so I can't say for sure, but I would almost argue that the end of the game is more of an intended impact than a broad one, as well - at least in contrast to something like TradeWars, a space game told totally through text with lots of random events, or even World of Warcraft - you kind of make it what it is. But that's not to say these 'objective events' are bad in that they try to elicit some emotion. The ending of Shadow, and Braid as another example - downright genius, in my opinion. And the Metal Gear Solid series, while very story-based, are so well directed that I'm glad to be strung along. Even a game like Half-Life where you never leave the first-person perspective still forces you along a fairly straightforward path. And yet I love these games and would in an instant call them classics. To me they are absolutely art, and timeless.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this any more. Clearly your post made me think. :)
I've been considering largely the dynamic of "internals vs. externals" - in many mediums, or even all aspects of life. Take something from the natural world, like a forest, or a dammed reservoir. To some, a reservoir might just make for a nice view, or a good spot to use a boat in. To others, an entire natural history might be observed... contemplation of what the landscape was like before the dam ... how it changed the habitat for animals in the area ... or even the "simplest" thing, like a stump in the forest, might be little more than a sitting spot for smoking ganja, or with stricter observation, one might identify the species, determine the age of the tree, and ponder its relation to its surroundings. The natural world: very broad.
In contrast, many films: very contrived to reach an "intended impact," as you say. The biggest blockbusters generally seem to shoot for this: how many conclusions can one come to about the resource-exploiting commander in Avatar? That's not to say that the emotional impact you feel when the blue guys take down a fleet of mechanized 'bots isn't valid, but it's pretty straightforward. A Scorcese picture like Raging Bull, full of subtlety and ripe for scene-by-scene analysis, might be a bit broader, somehow: the "externals" don't change, like any film - but the ability to look deeper might reveal much more about the characters than first expected. It is well directed, in my opinion, and gets better with every re-watch - but that's me. Others might dismiss it as shallow and violent. Taking it even further, most David Lynch films are COMPLETELY open to interpretation, yet what is on the screen is the same for everyone.
For that matter, stories themselves may largely be intended to elicit a specific emotional response.
So video games have a strange combination of inherently allowing manipulation of what is on the screen, but still forcing you along some constraints, often tied to some story. Yes, the death of Eli Vance definitely falls into the "intended impact" category. Shadow of the Colossus is an interesting example - it's been a few years since I played it, so I can't say for sure, but I would almost argue that the end of the game is more of an intended impact than a broad one, as well - at least in contrast to something like TradeWars, a space game told totally through text with lots of random events, or even World of Warcraft - you kind of make it what it is. But that's not to say these 'objective events' are bad in that they try to elicit some emotion. The ending of Shadow, and Braid as another example - downright genius, in my opinion. And the Metal Gear Solid series, while very story-based, are so well directed that I'm glad to be strung along. Even a game like Half-Life where you never leave the first-person perspective still forces you along a fairly straightforward path. And yet I love these games and would in an instant call them classics. To me they are absolutely art, and timeless.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this any more. Clearly your post made me think. :)
And thank you for your interesting response. I would normally have a long winding point or counterpoint, but I think you really captured what I was saying. Half-Life 2 is an interesting one. Sure, there is a hell of a lot going on that would lead you to think that the certain theme should have certain impacts (evil, totalitarianism) but there is also a LOT, that is never told or explained within the Half-Life 2 story. It's not that I ever doubted the combine to be ruthless and brutal, we are just never told why they have taken these actions. Also, I just realised that I never finished Braid. Wow, alright I'm going to do that right now.
The problem I increasingly find with indie games, is what the maker of the game wants it to be. It's basically what the game maker's "vision". This is a continuos problem with game makers, instead of making a game forvan audiencevthatvcan catch all peoples interest, it's become "I'm an artist! Look at my vision!"
I guess there is alwayings going to be a tinge of the self-serving nature in "art", but whatever. What I was saying, initially, is that this vision is a problem because it makes the game inaccessiable to everyone else, but then I realised that out of these games came some genuinely interesting one. But there is always going to be the blithely pretentious.
How does something like Yume Nikki compare to this? There's very little in place in the form of narration, or exposition, or guidance. At all. And the sheer mass numbers of differing interpretations leads some to question if the developer really had a "vision" in place, or if he just kinda went with it.
Does it fall to the player to put their own experience in place? Rather, how heavily does it fall to player to put their own experience in place?
On the one extreme, we have linear, "hand-holding" kinds of games, or those that are so small there's no real room for anything else. Your header of "do the right thing" calls back memories of "Execution" or whatever the game was called. Very limited, very straightforward in scope. There's just not
On the other extreme, we have the games that say "Go" and nothing else. Yume Nikki gives you controls, and that's pretty much it. It falls to the player to explore the dreams and go from one place to the next. Without help. This has nothing in it EXCEPT the player's subjective spin and interpretation.
So I guess I ask, how do we balance the two? Even retail games have to answer that, and it varies from one game to the next, but I guess I'm just asking for your opinion on the matter. With, say, The Stroll, where are you planning to go with this?
Does it fall to the player to put their own experience in place? Rather, how heavily does it fall to player to put their own experience in place?
On the one extreme, we have linear, "hand-holding" kinds of games, or those that are so small there's no real room for anything else. Your header of "do the right thing" calls back memories of "Execution" or whatever the game was called. Very limited, very straightforward in scope. There's just not
On the other extreme, we have the games that say "Go" and nothing else. Yume Nikki gives you controls, and that's pretty much it. It falls to the player to explore the dreams and go from one place to the next. Without help. This has nothing in it EXCEPT the player's subjective spin and interpretation.
So I guess I ask, how do we balance the two? Even retail games have to answer that, and it varies from one game to the next, but I guess I'm just asking for your opinion on the matter. With, say, The Stroll, where are you planning to go with this?

surf dtoid with 

Rising (10+)
People you follow

send message
follow
followers





