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I tend to play a mix of retro and modern games. I'm a fan of Platformers, Beat 'Em Ups, RPGs, First Person Shooters, Fighting Games, Shumps, and Adventure Games. My favorite retro games include anything in the Mario series, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Mega Man 1-3, Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, Final Fight, Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2, any Capcom Fighter, Maniac Mansion, Sam and Max Hit The Road, Deus Ex, Galaga, Axelay, any game in the Gradius or R-Type series, and countless others. Currently I'm on a binge in Shadow Complex, but you can also find me playing Call of Duty, Punch-Out!!, No More Heroes, Mad World, Madden 2009, Batman Arkham Asylum, Fallout 3, Oblivion, any Soul Caliber game, KOTOR, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, UFC 2009, and Mario Galaxy. Upcoming releases I'm looking forward to are Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2, New Super Mario Brothers Wii, Metroid: Other M, Brutal Legend, Tekken 6, Crackdown 2, A Boy and his Blob and Alpha Protocol.

Aside from my gaming I'm a big fan of Professional Wrestling, both the WWE and independent groups like Chikara and Pro-Wrestling Guerrilla. I'm a big fan of most any cartoon series. I love weird or obscure TV series. I enjoy cinema, especially B-Movies and films so bad that they are good. I have a degree in culinary arts, am working towards getting one in Food Science, and that's pretty much me.
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Nothing is Sacred: Experience Points and Leveling Up
ThaFNFreak | 2:59 PM on 10.27.2009 8 comments


If you were to ask your average RPG fan why they like Role Playing Games, you’ll get some common answers. The stories are more in depth and tend to draw them in; you develop true attachment to your characters, among many others. There’s always one thing that everybody seems to enjoy, characters level up, become better, and can use new abilities. That’s what makes an RPG an RPG. If a game is ever advertised as having RPG elements, it means that there is experience points, leveling, etc. It attracts people to games, your character gets rewarded for fighting extra battles, finding secrets, doing side missions, and it gives a normal game that little extra.

However, if you ask that same RPG fan what their least favorite part about Role Playing Games. The number one answer is always Grinding. Personally, Grinding doesn’t bug me too much; I personally enjoy building up a few levels now and then to boost my characters. Sometimes you’re just bored in a game and want to take a break, why not go kill some baddies and gain a few levels, it’s cool that you can do that with no fear in an RPG. But when Grinding is forced upon a player that’s what makes all gamers angry. We’ve all been in a dungeon where we’re right before the boss, you’ve saved, healed, and are ready to fight. Then in a one minutes battle he’s killed your entire party. It doesn’t make sense, if we were able to beat the dungeon up to the boss, why can’t we beat the boss. Yes it should be a tougher battle than the dungeon’s normal enemies and you might die once or twice trying to beat him, but it should be possible. If the boss has a weakness or something along those lines that curbs them from killing you nearly instantly that’s one thing, it’s another thing if he’s just far more powerful than your character is. Thus we have to grind, and we get angry at the game for making us do so against our own will.


Great, I’m fucked aren’t I, looks like I get to go Grind some more.

Ironic isn’t it, what we love so much spawns what we hate with every ounce of our moral fiber. Leveling up has gotten so fucking confusing at this point. Different games all have different rules about EXP, there’s a range of complete control to no control over what skills you character gains, and it can get frustrating and confusing. Leveling up, the simple concept of it, has become a monster quite frankly, and it’s because of multiple factors. The concept of experience points, what a level up means in the context of the game, and what the player gets to do to customize their character upon a level up.

Experience points

Experience points are really there because they have such ease of use. It’s a number value assigned to the difficulty, according to the programmer, of the enemy. The problem is that in the eyes of a gamer these are just arbitrary number values. They are just there as an indicator so the game can add them to a character’s total experience points, so they can level up a character at the right time. The problem is that in games they are static values. Why is a regular troll worth 150 exp, when a fire troll is worth 200? Is it because the fire troll has 27 more health points, or can use a level 1 fire attack, or has a regular attack value one higher than the regular troll. What if the fire troll is actually easier to kill because it has a weakness to water? It’s a problem quite frankly; all that our character does in a game is broken down into simple addition. It can also be frustrating when a game only allows people who were within a battle to gain experience. I understand there’s a sense of realism there, they fight, thus they get the spoils of battle. If you can swap characters in battle it helps, but if you want everyone to have the experience you are forced to waste turns swapping in and out characters. If you can’t swap out characters its just shitty, because you are forced to level up characters individually if you want to use them all, thus instead of using the full party a gamer is inclined to use a small group that has higher levels. Thus EXP hinders the game, but are there other options?


Hurray, a whopping two EXP

Some games try to get around EXP by giving the character experience based on their actual in game experience. Oblivion is a prime example, your actions in the game determine when your major skills level up, and that determines when you level up. If you use your sword, your bladed weapon skill increase, it all seems so simple. However it just becomes a mess, because it’s unbalanced. For a magic school to increase you have to use a spell in the school, simple enough. However it has to affect somebody to count, so if your fireball doesn’t hit, you lose mana and don’t get experience for using it. Also the level of the spell doesn’t affect how much the stat increases, thus it’s beneficial to use weaker spells or to create spells intentionally weak solely to level. It can really be a problem when you have one skill that doesn’t level at a rate like your others. For example, I have bladed weapons and archery as skills. At times you just can’t use a bow to attack, thus my bladed weapons are at a very high level, while my archery remains low. So I’m more inclined to use my blade, and I don’t really level up my archery. In concept it’s a good idea; in practice there are some kinks to be worked out.


Is this a solution?

Leveling up

The level up needs to only give a player three things, an increase in HP/MP, a change in attributes, and the ability to use new magic/skills. Most games do this alright, however there are still minor problems and a few major ones. For example, Weapons and Items shouldn’t be level based. If there’s a restriction that’s ok, like the character must be a master in blade to use this sword, or mages can only wear cloth armor because they are physically weaker than the other characters. That’s understandable because it has reasoning. When there’s a weapon that either you have in your character’s possession or that can purchased, yet cannot be used because your character isn’t at a certain level, that’s just fucking stupid. Anyone can pick up and shoot a gun, whether they’ve been doing it for years or it’s their first time. WHY THE FUCK CAN’T A CHARACTER USE A WEAPON, BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL NUMBER. Give me an excuse, I don’t care, just don’t put, un-equipable until level 14 there, it’s a fucking cocktease. It can also be troublesome when magic has its own experience points and own levels. Chrono Trigger is a prime example, I love this game, but your magic and character levels have their own EXP. Some enemies don’t drop the magic EXP, and since it’s a game where only the characters actually in battle gain EXP from it, you may have to grind to get your spells up. It’s another minor thing, but leveling up should be all encompassing.


God forbid anyone at Level 45 try and touch this sword.

A major problem I have is when enemy level increases when your character or characters increase level. Going back to Oblivion, as you increase in level so do your enemies. They essentially become more difficult the more that you play the game. Granted, if this was done logically it would be alright. I could understand if enemies throughout the many dungeons in the game increased their level as you did, because they aren’t the main focus. But when the enemies in the main quest and in the overworld do, that is a serious problem. One of the major aspects of RPGs is the side quests, your character can deviate from the main path before returning to it. Doing a side quest may reward you with a special weapon, armor, or item that you wouldn’t get otherwise. I shouldn’t be punished for choosing to do some side quests, and leveling up, before returning to the main quest. If I choose to do some side quests and gain a level or two, it’s either because I am bored of the main quest at that moment or because I feel my character needs to increase in level before resuming the main quest. Oblivion has a vast amount of areas to explore and side quests to complete, yet it essentially tells the gamer that they should hold off on them until the main quest is over. While yes it isn’t a major thing, it’s still BULLSHIT. I can admit, the enemies are easier to defeat the higher level you are, but it doesn’t matter. The difficulty of the enemies within the main quest should increase the further you get along in that quest. Thus the player has an incentive to play side quests and explore, so they can make their character stronger the further along they are in the game so they are better equipped to fight these enemies. But even that isn’t the major problem with leveling these days.

We as gamers have gone past the point of leveling up just being an arbitrary increase in stats. In the days of the NES and SNES that was perfectly fine. It was a simpler time, for simpler games (I’m not referring to difficulty or story, rather the memory constraints), on a simpler system. That time has past however. If stats just increase without any rhyme or reason, it dissolves the illusion that we as the game have control over the entire game. It just further proves that we are on a set path that the creator wishes us to follow. If your character reaches level 50, they have the stats that the creator, not you the gamer, wants that character to have. Yes, you may be able to pick up a few items which permanently boost a stat, and a higher level in one stat may increase other things, such as the amount of HP your character gains per level, but by in large you have no control over what happens during a level up. Sometimes it’s even confusing as to what a stat affects. I personally can think of only one game off the top of my head where I know what each stat is, Earthbound. Five of the seven stats in the game are easy to understand, and because I’ve played the game quite a few times, I know Guts allows you to do Smash attacks and IQ helps Jeff fix broken items and really doesn’t affect anyone else. But there is still no standard system to listing stats, they can lead to confusion, and it leads myself, as a gamer, to not pay attention them. Yes, you can take the time out to learn what they do individually, but that should be included in the game, just a simple list of what each stat does for the character.


Damn for savior of the universe he sure does start out with shitty stats.

Solutions

Experience points need to become flexible. They need to become based on experience, but not to an extreme level. Enemies can still carry experience points, that’s fine, but that should be a base value. The rest should be determined by the battle itself. The RPG makers need a way so the actions of battle truly determine how much experience a character gains. Is it hard fought, what are the characters relying on, are they using multiple attacks/magic/items, and etc. If the battle is a cakewalk, they get the base points with little extra, telling them they should try and fight harder enemies. If the battle is a difficult one, then they get bonus experience for it. The numbers actually have meaning, and the player becomes more inclined to fight harder battles so his characters can reap the rewards.

As for Leveling Up, customization is the key. I know I’ve ragged on Oblivion a whole lot, but I love the game. It, along with many other hybrid RPGs have a great system for leveling up. I personally love it because everything is in your control. Even though you can cheat the system, all of your skills still increase by the way you play the game. If you use your character as a tank, their weapon and armor skills increase, play as a mage, and magic goes up. Once receiving a level up, your stats, all clearly defined, get increased by you the gamer, not by the game itself. You can choose increases that a beneficial to your character, rather than the game’s programmer choosing them for you. Final Fantasy 10’s sphere grid is another good example, the skills your characters gain are based on what you want them to learn, not what the game forces upon them. More and more games are going along these routes thankfully, but it should become a standard for all RPGs. The gamer many hours playing with a character or party, they develop a style with them, and because of this they feel they know what is more beneficial to a character in their game.


Every single one of these is free for you to fiddle with.

Can Leveling up and Experience Points be saved, sure, but it will take some effort. Both creators and gamers alike are attached to characters, so both need an input. But I personally feel the creators need to grant the gamers more leeway. We shouldn’t be forced to play a game a certain way because the creator feels that his way is best. It’s called a role playing game for a reason. Gamers step into the role of a character or group of characters, and play out the game in that role. In real life hardships, troubles, ideas, amongst others, breed change; a game should be the same way. If we as humans had the luxury of saving our “game of life” before difficult portions and find out one way of doing things isn’t going to work, then we’re going to change what we’re doing. So should the RPG follow suit, allow the gamer to truly make it their own experience, while keeping the essence and ideas of the game still there.

I’m ThaFNFreak, That’s my opinion, as I’m entitled to it.



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8 comments | showing # 1 to 8
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Mike Moran's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 15:12
Mike Moran
This is a longer read I currently don't have the time for, but I'm giving a fap and assurance of running over the whole thing later.
Elsa's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 16:19
Elsa
A really interesting read!! I agree with most of what you've said, so no real additional comments aside from the fact that I would like to see less "formula" and a little more inventiveness in the whole XP, leveling up thing (both in RPG's and even FPS games).
Steel Brotha's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 17:07
Steel Brotha
I like grinding in certain games but for the most part your right.
Chris Carter's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 17:42
Chris Carter
I'm seriously IN LOVE with EVERY game you used for your pictures.
BulletMagnet's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 18:07
BulletMagnet
Some of the "solutions" you mentioned actually exist in a handful of games you didn't reference (though you might still have heard of them) - the later Shadow Hearts games reward players with extra experience and items for better battle performance (perfectly hitting all judgment rings, taking no damage, etc.), as do a handful of the Gust RPGs, which encourage you to either efficiently finish battles to save time or blast enemies with your most powerful techniques to earn some extra swag. Several of the Shin Megami Tensei games, on the other hand, allow you to choose which stats increase when the main character levels up, though everyone else's are assigned automatically.

In any event, good read.
ThaFNFreak's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 22:39
ThaFNFreak
Bullet in response to your comment, I was aware there are more games that grant you freedom of adjustment of stats upon leveling up and that some games give you bonuses based on battles. For games that allow control over level ups I just listed the first two that came to my head. For games that give bonuses I didn't know specifically which games do so, so I did not mention any. The main point I was trying to make is that more games need to implement these features because they truly give the gamer more freedom in an RPG. Thus it becomes a more personal game for them.

Also thank all of you that read, commented, and considered it fap worthy. I'm very grateful to know that people out there are enjoying my blog posts.
RBinator's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/27/2009 22:54
RBinator
I basically agree with just about everything you said. Seeing how RPG elements are becoming more and more common these days, developers could handle this better. How many major non-RPGs have RPG elements in them these days?

I do find experience splitting quite annoying. I know some RPGs like Star Ocean splits experience between everyone in battle. How come developers don’t want us to be able to effectively use more of the characters they created instead of the player being stuck to using a select few without many extra hours of grinding? I think Pokémon is a big offender of this, especially keeping six of them “up to date” without resorting to massive grinding. Even the EXP Share item doesn’t do much to change this. I think the grinding is the biggest problem of those games, which I otherwise enjoy quite a bit.

Oblivion is really unbalanced about its leveling. You could raise non-combat skills and gain level ups, but that will just leave you worse off in combat since the enemies will just get stronger while you don’t. You can also cast spells on yourself to not have to worry about having a target. It can also lead to things like casting a minor healing spell while walking around the over world. You also even improve skills without leveling up since that requires sleeping and leveling up only improves your HP and main stats. If they must stick with an “improve as you use” system, shouldn’t how well you do something matter and not simply how often? This applies to a few skills, but in most cases, it doesn’t.

I too feel that restrictions based on level are a strange requirement. Couldn’t stats like strength and stuff matter? Some RPGs do this, but they also may still have a level requirement on top. On the other hand though, stat requirements wouldn’t work out for all RPGs. Borderlands doesn’t have stats like strength, so restricting items by level might be the only requirement they can put in. After all, they’ll have to have some way to stop a level 1 character from using a weapon that his level 30 buddy dropped him without making the game too easy. On the other hand, the game does have cocktease moments by having guns in chests that can be at higher levels than the level you’re expected to be at when doing the quest. I think in a level 13 area or something, I found a weapon with a level 24 requirement, so I held on till it for quite awhile. Shortly after reaching level 24, I could find better weapons with that same level requirement easily. Basically carried that around for nothing and could have used that cash for selling it much sooner.

The thing about the level-scaling system in Oblivion was that it was done so poorly that it led to “what’s the point of leveling up if I’m not gonna get stronger relatively to my enemies?” You could finish the arena at level 1 and I believe the main quest at level 2. Not to mention your allies during those quests didn’t level up as much as the enemies, so doing the first real battle in the main quest at level 20 or higher could lead to your allies dying quickly and the unkillable ones getting knocked out every few seconds. I thought it got harder the more you leveled, since the HP of the enemies increase a lot more than your damage, even if you power level. Some of the enemies didn’t stop scaling, so they could have a insane amount of HP and damage if you reached around level 50 or so. It’s like getting stronger actually made you weaker. I understand the open world nature of the game might’ve made it hard to properly balance things at times, but would it have been that hard for the guild quests that progress in linear order? The arena could have easily went from level 1 to level 50 enemies by the end.

As for what you mention about choosing what stats to level up, WRPGs tend to allow you to do this, while JRPGs don’t. Generally WRPGs allow much more character customization than JRPGs. Even then, just because JRPGs use pre-defined characters doesn’t mean they have to use pre-defined stats for them upon leveling up as well. Even then, in both cases, different characters specialize in different things, so naturally increasing HP would give a bigger boost for a warrior than a wizard.

This comment length is bordering on being long enough to be its own c-blog entry at this rate, so that’s it for now.
Gen Eric Gui's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/28/2009 08:16
Gen Eric Gui
Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song on the PS2 pretty much does everything you listed in the "solutions" section. You might want to check it out.
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