Hey all! Its time for another Dtoid Community Discusses! This past weekend was Pride in SF so I'm typing this up after a long, gay weekend of fun. As always, I've assembled a panel of members of the Dtoid community to talk about a topic. This week the topic is "Triple A Titles", courtesy of megaStryke. This is the topic question as posed to the panel:

Tactix

"As megaStryke mentioned, there is a sort of Hollywood model in the gaming industry nowadays, with all of the big name games having HUGE production values. Games spend so much on getting celebrity voice actors, tons of time in R&D, and basically having to spend lots of money just so certain people will pay attention to them.

However, I feel like some of the greatest games (read: retro) didn't need A-list celebrities and producers...there are tons of titles that you can imagine that bring just as much fun gameplay at just the fraction of the cost. So my question to you guys is: how do you feel about the trend of the industry to these higher production value games? Do you miss the days when games were cheap and simple, yet still fun? Might we see a return to making games cheaper due to the fact that the economy sucks right now? What are your favorite high-production games, and was that production value necessary?"

This weeks panel consists of Pendelton21, megaStryke, and Zodiac Eclipse! Read on to see what they think!



Pendelton21

To be honest, one of my favorite things in games are celebrity voice actors. Some of my favorite characters in games are voiced by big names like Terry Gilliam, John DiMaggio, and (coming up soon) Jack Black. I, for one, like this turn towards getting A-list actors to join on games, bringing them into a wider audience (i.e. people who have seen their movies). Hell, this has been going on for a while: anyone ever play Apocalypse with Bruce Willis (http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Apocalypse_(video_game))? This is a trend that I'm happy the gaming industry is keeping up in so-called "A-list" titles.

On the subject of making cheaper games, I'd like to bring up indie games: some games made by a guy in a basement somewhere can get more fun out of me than an A-list title. As one Rev. Anthony can attest to, indie games have been making a huge boom recently in the gaming world, with such hot titles as Cave Story, Everyday Shooter, and World of Goo. This just gives credence to the notion that bling bling, money ain't a thang; who could honestly say that Assassin's Creed (an A-list title) is more fun than, say, N (an indie title)? No matter what gaming market we're in, there's gonna be someone who, with only a few dollars, make a more compelling game than a multi-million dollar blockbuster.

Zodiac Eclipse

I guess I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum than Pendelton. When I'm playing a game, I like to be pretty much immersed in my experience. That means that unless there is some glitchy mechanic that hinders my gameplay, I have no concept of trivial matters such as music and who's playing the main characters voice. If anything, a recognizable voice throws me off because then I'm more focused on trying to figure out who the voice is instead of who the character is that I'm supposed to be interacting with. An example would be "Joker" in Mass Effect. Whenever he went on his rant about being the poor little sick kid all I could think was, “Hey he sounds familiar, I think that's Seth Green. That's gotta be Seth Green.” Sure I could've just looked in the manual and saw that I was indeed correct and moved on, but instead every time he had dialogue I was back to thinking of him as Seth Green instead of Jeff "Joker" Moreau. I can understand the appeal to having big name celebrities do the voices for your game, bringing in an audience of their fans, giving gamers a little extra, but if their voice is too recognizable and they aren't playing themselves then it can pull me out of the story, next thing you know I'm counting polygons, its a downhill slide.

As for a return to cheaper games, I don't see that happening anytime soon. I think we'll see more companies playing it safer, by releasing more sequels to already popular IP's, but the companies know that gamers are a fickle bunch and their expectations will not wane just because of economic slumps. In a way it's better to be an indie developer in this climate because you can take more risks whereas the bigger companies have too many shareholders to answer to if a game flops.

megaStryke

Before I get into the meat and potatoes, I want to clarify what you said about retro titles not needing massive production values to deliver a solid experience. If you are talking about modern games with an aged aesthetic, of course they are cheaper to produce. If you are talking about games of the retro era (whenever you consider that to be), that's another matter entirely. As time passes, the AAA productions on, say, the NES would appear less and less distinguishable from the less-costly endeavors, but that's not to say their development and marketing budgets weren't worlds apart.

In any case, this doesn't just concern retro games. This concerns any game that gets glossed over just because it doesn't have a hundred-foot poster on the side of a building. Without naming specific cases, you hear about companies firing off gargantuan sales targets for their latest masterpiece because for some reason the one million milestone is not a good enough goal anymore. Games need to sell three, four, five million copies to justify whatever investment they placed into them. On the same token, those games wouldn't need to sell that much if they were scaled back ever so slightly. It creates this false measure of success that just can't be met on a consistent basis.

Tactix

I guess retro is not really a good indicator of how much was spent or produced on a game because, like you said, even games that may have a sort of old school look to them, could still have tons of money spent in other areas such as gigantic billboards. As far as games that get overlooked, I definitely think that is a large reason why companies have to spend so much on games or even just stick to making sequels of pre-existing popular titles. For example, Zack and Wiki was an excellent game, but it was (sadly) largely overlooked. If there were huge FFXIII billboards showing this game would things have been different?

Another thing I wonder is what was the thought process behind a game such as Halo:ODST. I'm sure that the gameplay/story could easily have been an original shooter game, but do you think at all that placing the Halo name on it will make it seem more of a triple A title and thus sell lots better than if it were just another shooter?


Thats a huuuuuge billboard!

megaStryke

Exactly. Companies don't trust original ideas on their own merits so they shoehorn some recognizable characters to help spread awareness. That's why Mario is bigger than Coca-Cola. I suppose the plan is that you capture an audience with something familiar and in the process introduce them to something fresh and creative with the hope that they'll be more receptive to new ideas in the future. I don't know how often that works out, though.

Something else I'd like to mention is handheld gaming. Ever since the original Game Boy, handhelds have always been second-rate among the media and gamers. As popular and as good as these games can be, they are seen as lesser experiences because they don't appear on big boy consoles. It's like, yeah, the DS has perhaps the most diverse library of games today but the consensus is that the heavy-hitting industry-movers are the Bioshocks and the GTAs. I mean, until this past year you never, EVER saw a handheld game win Best of Show at E3 regardless of how impressive it may be. Scribblenauts pulled it off and that makes me happy. On the same token, it took perhaps the most outrageous game mechanic in the past decade for the media to accept that a handheld game can make some real waves. As popular as it was when it came out, I don't think even Pokémon gained that level of acceptance. It's baffling.

Zodiac Eclipse

Let's backtrack a moment to the idea that companies use recognizable characters as a way of avoiding new ideas. I think to some extent the problem does lay with the developers feeling like recycling popular ideas is a safer bet, but let's face facts, we eat it up. How many Pokemon sequels are there? What about Final Fantasy's or Halo games? Gamers know and trust these titles so of course if you slap the name on a similar product with slightly tweaked mechanics it's a guaranteed hit. The trick is finding a balance between releasing these familiar titles to pay the bills and giving us something new and exciting to keep us interested. As much as gamers complain about the lack of innovation as of late you still have a ton of games that slip right under the radar. Nobody even realizes they were great until they are declared unsuccessful, then suddenly everyone wants to come out of the woodwork and cry about how they didn't get the support they needed to be a hit.

Advertising is great for driving hype, and we'd all like to think we are smart enough not to buy into the game company's propaganda, but the numbers don't lie. Big Ad campaigns for big name titles bring in big money. Unproven games are slipped into the mix occasionally, but they aren't likely to pull the same numbers as the big boys so they are written off. The game companies can't afford to put all their eggs in a Scribblenauts basket. Yes it's an amazing concept, but that doesn't guarantee sales and I think we're all past the idea of thinking that the devs are lying awake at night worrying about pleasing fans and personal integrity over meeting sales goals. No company survives that way.

At this point its easy to throw up our hands and cry foul, but if we wanted to be more proactive we would be spreading the word ourselves about these smaller worthwhile titles. 'Word of mouth' is still one of the best and most trusted forms of advertising. All the million-dollar ad budgets have the same goal, getting us to talk about their game. There is no reason why we as consumers can't promote the games we think are more worthy of being noticed. It might not lead to any sort of equality in established -vs- original game advertising, but it will at least show companies that we're receptive to new titles and want more then just Final Halo Bros Brawl.

megaStryke

Let's back away from sales and advertising so that we may zero in on the consumers that WE are most familiar with: ourselves. The people that visit Destructoid, Kotaku, Joystiq, the gamers with the most varied tastes and the most disposable income. Whereas most gamers keep to a small set of games, the people reading THIS are the ones who buy games in bulk, who hunt down the most obscure titles, who try to find the diamonds in the rough. I would expect us of all people to not be swayed by flash and pizzazz, yet we are just as susceptible.

For example, when we talk of AAA games, we speak of games that not only have massive budgets but also Metacritic ratings above 80. Or 85. Or 90. Or 87.3. Or whatever cutoff we decide best serves our quality arguments. Presentation is a big part of these scores, so it's to be expected that very few small projects would hit those high scores as a result of a lack of features that we've come to expect in AAA fare. That's not to say I couldn't enjoy a low budget game that only scored a 75 more than a bombastic affair that scored a 95. Given how many people rag on Twilight Princess despite its 95 score, I think my point is clear.

Now let's say that there is some console like... ohh... the Wii. Just throwing a name. Then there is another that we will call the Xbox 360. Let's also say that the latter receives more high-budget Hollywood-style games and more highly rated games than the former. Just supposing. If one were to express favor of this Wii over the 360, you might hear a number of dissenting voices criticizing this person for "settling for a lesser experience" or for "lowering his standards" or something like that. Could it simply be that this Wii-lover has become disillusioned by the constant throat-cramming by his peers and the game industry of what he should enjoy playing? What he should expect, nay, demand out of a game? That bigger always equals better? That simple pleasures can ONLY be mild distractions until you can sink your teeth into the big slab of beef?

Pendelton21

Wait, are we classifying games as AAA by their review scores? I see games like Daikatana, Malice, and Duke Nukem Forever as AAA games, mainly because of factors during development, such as being made by a big name, or having a huge voice actor. Think about it; if Brutal Legend is a god-awful game, it's still a AAA title. Who here still remembers the Daikatana ads, and being told we were going to be made a certain someone's bitch? AAA, to me, means a title made by a high-profile company or producer that gets a lot of hype and advertising behind it. And, as far as the question asked at the beginning ("Is high-production value necessary?"), look at what the value these games were created on gave us.


"If Brutal Legend is a god-awful game, its still a AAA title"

megaStryke

I personally go by budget alone, but most people take review scores into consideration. It's a combination of large investment and high quality.

Zodiac Eclipse

I think review scores factor in for most people when they are determining if they would actually buy a game, not necessarily if the game is considered AAA or not. If it's being produced by a big company and has a large budget for advertising and production then its going to be AAA even if its a horrible game in the end. As for the high-production value requirement, I think we can all basically agree that it really comes down to feeling like you got your money's worth when you play a game. If it's a 5 hour indie game that is an amazing experience and has replay value it could be worth just as much to you as the AAA title that lasts three times as long and will spawn countless sequels. Unless the production quality is so inferior that it distracts from the gameplay (think blocky people with jerky animations) then cost to produce has little to nothing to do with the overall perceived quality of the finished game.

Mega's rant about the hypothetical Wii and Xbox360 players is less to do with inferior gaming experiences and more to do with the whole casual -vs- hardcore gamer issue, which exists solely in people's minds and is a topic for another day.

megaStryke

I wasn't talking about casual vs. hardcore. If there's a multiplatform game that appears on all platforms, most of us would immediately assume that the Wii version is by and large inferior. Though there may be valid reasons for that particular scenario, we tend to paint the entire library with that brush. Why? Not because the games are "casual" but because any game that may be actually be decent is disregarded for not meeting the standard AAA criteria.

There's not much you and I can personally do to get publishers and developers to come back down to earth. What we can do is to train ourselves to ease up on the infinite AAA hype parade and not to scale back our ever-increasing expectations. Glitz and glamour are fine, but don't let them cloud you judgment and prevent you from enjoying games that might have a little less polish or a little less fanfare.

Zodiac Eclipse

I'm still happy with the overall direction the industry is taking. Yes, some of the costs associated with the bigger titles have become ridiculous, but if the end result is a more competitive market among the big developers and some well deserved recognition for the smaller teams who produce amazing titles with less, then I can't be too disappointed. In the end the true value of a title isn't judged by the budget, but by whether or not you enjoy it and I don't mind letting the game companies fight for my approval.

-----------------------------------------

Well thats all for this week! Stay tuned for another Dtoid Community Discusses soon!

Welcome to the last edition of the E3 coverage of Dtoid Community Discusses! Today, we focus on Sony's presenation...to check out the Microsoft edition and Nintendo edition just click on those links! To read what Guttlesswonder, Tdiddy, ScottyG, and Gatorsax2010 had to say about Sony, read on!



Guttlesswonder

I feel that Sony was able to show a lot of the diversity available in there conference. With games like MAG, GoW3, Last Guardian, ModNation Racers, FF14 and Agent it is obvious that Sony has many exclusives spanning several genres lined up for the PS3 this and next year. I really feel that this is Sony's biggest strength right now. It sucks to see so many of them coming out next year but then again I wont have to spend all my money at once I guess.

PSP…hmmm…I just think they don't get hand-helds at all. It seems like they think of the PSP as a Next Gen system first and a hand-held second. Not everything on PS3 needs to be ported over in a gimped fashion. Luckily I have always just wanted a portable PS1, and with FF7 and all the other titles becoming available I may be dusting the little sucker off again.

Tactix

Sony does have lots of games that they announced, but for some reason, none of them have me that excited yet. Not that the games aren't going to be good games....MAG seems like it might be cool, GoW 3 seems like it will be cool, Last Guardian also....the games are all visually stunning, but I was hoping to see a game that was a "system seller" to me, and (personally) none of these games are....yet. I think I need more information on them at least.

Reading the live blog, what Sony did seem to pimp was their PSP Go. And they did seem to try really hard to fix the problem they had before, which was not supporting it with good games. Sony has announced a MGS game, Resident Evil game, downloadable games, basically what appears to be loads of content...however, I'm kinda with Guttless on that I just don’t feel they "get" handhelds. From what I've heard from a couple of people over twitter is excitement for the PSP Go...until the price point was revealed at $250 dollars.

Will price point get in the way of the success that the PSP Go could have akin to what happened with the PS3?

Guttlesswonder

I have to agree with the games not being to exciting and I think that was mostly due to the fact that there are no surprises. Considering how you are somewhat a creature of habit when it comes to game preference with Mario and primarily Nintendo products in general, what would it take to get you to purchase a PS3? It seems to me that it is simply cost of entry and product timing which got many people on the Xbox rather that the PS3.

For many people I think that FF13 was gonna be that game but since that ship has sailed it seems Sony has turned to the successor to FF MMO's with number 14. This move seems odd since no other console has any MMO's planned yet the PS3 has at least 2 others in "DC Universe" and "The Agency." This to me seems like PS3 is setting itself to compete with itself. I realize they are all very different, but if they are all subscription based than people will end up choosing which to give their monthly fee to.


Final Fantasy XIV, DC Universe and The Agency...is the number of PS3 MMO's a wise thing?

Tdiddy

I still feel that Sony is still reeling from having the exclusivity for Final Fantasy 13 taken from them. I have a feeling that this year’s show would have been, in my own way of summarizing, "Hahaha suck our dicks fanboys, we got Final Fantasy 13". While they had some high quality games, such as The Last Guardian, Uncharted 2 and God Of War 3, we all knew that these games would be shown, in one way or another. There was really nothing we got to see, coming soon, to really make me go oooooh wow.

Its funny you mention that Chris, because that was exactly what I was thinking too. While I thought the DC MMO had some potential and from what I've seen The Agency really intrigues me, because its an MMO that is doing something different, being in the "real world" and not in some fantasy or super hero world. I think that Sony saw the chance at an exclusive from Square Enix and jumped at the chance. Not to raise the ire of any fanboys, but I don't think the 360 could pull this off (yes I am well aware that FFXI is on the 360).

ScottyG

Since I don't own any Sony systems (I barely have time to play what I have now, I'm NOT buying another system :P), nothing really caught my eye too much. MAG does intrigue me though, just to see if they can pull it off or if they're smoking the same thing the OnLive people are.

Tactix

I'm curious...what did you guys think of Sony's venture into motion control? From what I hear (I haven’t quite seen the video yet), the demonstration showed it working even better than Wii Motion Plus. However, without the fact that the whole console is based around it (Wii) or the fact that it isn’t full body motion controls (Microsoft's Natal), how do you feel it will do? Do you think it will see much support from other developers, or will they simply resort to the Wii to reach the much larger fan base? Likewise, will developers who want very realistic motion controls end up resorting to Natal?

Tdiddy

Their motion control presentation really really impressed me though, initially I thought it was a joke, but as they went on I became very impressed. I think the turning point had to be when they did the demo with the bow and arrow, when he actually had to pull the arrow out of his quiver, draw back the sting and fire. The bow was seemingly shaking from all the tension in the string. I really look forward to that.

ScottyG

I couldn't find any video actually. So is it an upgrade to the Sixaxis, or a whole new controller? I think you hit the nail on the head in that many devs who want to do waggle will stick to the Wii... although given what most devs have done with it so far that might be a good thing.

Since I don't have any Sony products I can't really say I'm excited about all that much from them, although after looking through their videos a few things caught my eye. Of course the Last Guardian trailer looks absolutely stunning. Seems like it'll be a combination of using the kid and the... dog thing to solve puzzles, which could be pretty fun. At least it'll be as atmospheric as the other titles. One that actually caught my eye is PixelJunk Shooter, even though I'm pretty sure that the trailer didn't have anything new.

Tactix

The Last Guardian = Neverending Story


Falcor? Is that you?

ScottyG

Heh, I was wondering what that reminded me of. :P

Guttlesswonder

You can find a copy of the tech demo on Gametrailers here.

So this is how I see the whole thing breaking down. The Wii obviously has a good jump on getting one-one motion to the consumers, however at the moment you are limited to one device at a time. Sword fighting and gun play will work well, however if you need two precise hand motions such as with say archery or iPhone like growing and shrinking Nintendo seems to have no current solution to this, or at least hasn't shown it.

Xbox seems to have a very interesting idea, but it is very vague as to how it works. It maps your body supposedly, but how does it differentiate between multiple people’s body parts or even your own foot when you kick your legs up on the table. Beyond that there is lighting to consider, clothing and even skin tone. It just seems very pie in the sky to me, and promotional tape just made me laugh.

Sony says right up front that there example is only a tech demo, however compared to Natal they showed exactly how precise and effective their controller will be. Its unfortunate that the hardware looked so wonky but it seemed to work just as well as Motion Plus, if not better. Also the graphical fidelity and physics available on the PS3 would be able to deliver a much more immersive experience than the Wii could.

But at the moment there is only one real show in town, so at least until next spring the Wii is the motion king.

ScottyG

Heh, I like how the guy immediately says "the look is going to change", like he's admitting it looks bad. I will admit though it does look like a sex toy (one to one indeed).

TBH, I really don't get the obsession with all the motion tracking. Aside from a pointer and a few things beyond waggle I just don't see it working. There just isn't the same feedback from actually doing the motions versus trying to match your body with a representation of your body on the screen. Like when the demo guy was having so much trouble just hitting a ball.

Gatorsax2010

Personally, at least with the Wii, the motion controls I've enjoyed the most have been used as enhancements to traditional control schemes with some waggle/pointer functionality thrown in where appropriate (Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, and Mario Galaxy, for example). NihonTiger wrote a great blog after the Project Natal reveal positing that Microsoft sees their way of motion control as an eventual replacement for controllers. In my opinion, there are far too many games that wouldn't work with Natal for it to be the be-all-end- all of motion controls. Street Fighter Natal would be fun at first, but you can only Shoryuken in your living room so many times without breaking anything.

Meanwhile, Sony's foray into motion (Sixaxis and Dualshock 3 aside) looks to be an enhanced Wiimote. I'm not sure if it will have the pointer functionality of the Wiimote, which is probably its best feature, but for 1:1 motion, it looks top-notch. It will be interesting to see how it compares to Wii Motion Plus in action. Will it be noticeably more accurate? How accurate do motion controls need to be? Is there a point (and this is for developers to decide) where you need to account for human error in motion? Failing because your control is tilted a degree in the wrong direction can't be fun. I predict we'll see some experimentation, but for better or worse, I doubt Sony's "waggle" will go much farther than Nintendo's.

---------

Thats all for DCD's coverage of E3! I hope you enjoyed reading.....as always, if you are interested in being a panelist, send me an email at tactixpimp at gmail.com or send me a PM with your email! I'm probably taking next week off since I will be with Dtoid LA this weekend, but I'll be back with another edition the following week! Until next time!

Welcome back to part 2 of the epic E3 Destructoid Community Discusses! On Monday, we brought you impressions of Microsoft's presentation by Dtoid community members (which you can check out here. For today's edition, we bring you impressions of Gatorsax2010, Eternalplayer, Wexx, and ScottyG about Nintendo's show. Read on to find out what they thought!



Gatorsax2010

Alright, let's get the ball rolling!

Overall, this was a HUGE improvement over last year's E3. Nintendo had an interesting mix of "meh" and things that made me gasp and jump out of my chair this year. I really don't understand the Wii Vitality Sensor. I know it's too big of a development to just quietly announce, but I'm sure they knew the response at E3 would be underwhelming. Wii Fit Plus, I understand why they're making it. I'm not one of the people that are against games like that, they just don't appeal to me, personally. My only question is whether it will sell as outrageously well as the first one. Having worked at a Target when the original came out, I was picking them up left and right for family members. I don't think they used it for more than two weeks.

What a great conference for Mario, though! New Super Mario Bros. Wii sounds like a lot of fun. It's funny, a few days after RetroforceGO wonders why there aren't more multiplayer platformers, the king himself gets in on the action. Mario Galaxy 2 looks awesome too. The addition of Yoshi looks like it will add quite a bit to the experience. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with adding only a few new wrinkles to gameplay that's already an established winner. All of the new DSi stuff really makes me want to pick one up (especially WarioWare: DIY).

The most important announcement, to me, is Team Ninja's Metroid: Other M. When they were showing the space scenes, and then a woman, my thoughts were, "This couldn't possibly be Metroid, could it?" Then, the guy (who is apparently Adam Malkovich) said "Any objections, lady?" And I gasped. Loudly. The gameplay looks like a mix of action, platforming, and some FPS sections, too. I'm simultaneously excited and scared to death of what this means for the franchise. It looks like it's more story-based than other games. And with Adam, Ridley, and Metroids all present, I have no idea where it could fit in the timeline. The Metroid series is possibly my favorite series in all of gaming, so it holds a special place in my heart. Hopefully this game is as awesome as it could be. (Also, I wonder how Retro feels about having the series they brought to 3D given to another developer?)

Tactix

I am also really stoked for not one but TWO new Mario games. I know its common perception to ask Nintendo to come up with new IPs, but I'm of the opinion that all I want from Nintendo is for them to do what they do best...make Mario games which make me feel like a kid again when I play them. While I feel Nintendo didnt have any "groundbreaking" announcements like the PSP Go or the Project Natal stuff, I feel they answered their critics that said that Nintendo has forgotten the hardcore crowd. With the Mario games, Metroid: Other M, Mario and Luigi, and Golden Sun, not too mention the third party games coming out such as Dead Space Extraction, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Red Steel, I think they are coming back to us :D

Grandma and grandpa and keep their Wii Fit Plus and little pulse thingy (???????) as long as Nintendo keeps up these games on the horizon.

Wexx

While Nintendo's conference wasn't as bad as last year, there was still a lot of casual crap that I didn't really care for. They're still looking for what makes them the most money, and they're trying out the super casual thing, as well as the hardcore stuff, which is great, because it brings stuff like GOLDEN FUCKING SUN back into the limelight.

ScottyG

Eh... to be honest, SMB Wii looks too much like the DS New SMB, which was way too floaty and loose for my liking. SMG2 and NMH2 however, look amazing. :)

Also, just saw the Metroid video... Team Ninja? Really? Ugh...

Not only that, but it looks even more story driven than Metroid Prime 3 was, which to me isn't the point of Metroid.

Eternalplayer

Overall the thing was very good coming from the Nintendo, we have seen the last few years. I think this presser was great compared to last years especially. Shying away from Wii Fit Plus and Wii Sports Resort, we had some amazing announcements. To start off Golden Sun DS was a pleasant and much welcomed surprise .Two new big Mario titles and two Mario spin-offs was really exciting. Super Mario Galaxy 2 had me screaming on the inside, totally took me by surprise as I had gotten use to one 3D-Mario per Nintendo console! Throwing in a brand new platformer was just icing for me. New SMB Wii looked like the DS counterpart which I hope means this is a Wiiware title! Beyond Red Steel 2, I'm not that big into The Conduit or Darkside Chronicles but I know some people are which is good that they have all type of gamers covered. Metroid: Other M shocked me and looks to be a return to classic Metroid. It might not be strictly 2D but it looks like it will have 2D sequences which has me pumped! Go third person Samus, GO!


New Super Mario Bros Wii trailer...I'm SO PUMPED!

Tactix

Ok...so I just saw the SMB Wii and Mario Galaxy 2 trailers. And I have to say these games look amazing!

First of all Mario Galaxy 2 seems to have tons of new worlds to explore which is good and the level design looks as good as ever, with one exciting level that I caught a glimpse of...One of them seemed to have Giant Goombas in it! Which reminds me of SMB3's Giant Land (way cool :D)

And ScottyG, even though SMB Wii looked like it will control sort of like the DS Mario game, I gasped in amazement at the fact that there will be 4 player co-op on the same screen....WHERE YOU CAN PICK UP YOUR CO-OP BUDDIES!!!!!!! This game mechanic reminds me all too well of Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers (one of my favorite NES games) and has made me SO excited for this game. I cant wait to pick up my friends and throw them in bottomless pits or in front of Bullet Bills.....:D

4 PLAYER CO-OP PLATFORMER! OMG!

Eternalplayer

I hope New Super Mario Bros Wii is online could you just imagine it?

Tactix

My imagination says it would be awesome...the realist in me is scared for lag-filled frustration gameplay (a la Smash Bros. Brawl) where I'm trying to skype with people I'm playing with.

It cooould work fine, but at the same time, I'm a big proponent of the best co-op sessions are the ones where your friends are in the same room. So if they don't include online, I won't be that upset.

Gatorsax2010

I didn't think there was too much "casual crap" (although I'm one of those people that really hates those labels). Wii Fit is a huge moneymaker for them, so the sequel shouldn't really be a surprise. Ditto for Wii Sports Resort. Plus, in my opinion, at least, Wii Sports Resort looks like it could be pretty fun. I know the original Wii Sports is pretty much a tech demo, but it's also lots of fun (I still play the occasional Bowling or Baseball game), and this looks to continue that trend.

Tactix, I have to agree with a lot of the things you said. Where Nintendo has excelled in multiplayer is in making a fun experience for everyone in the room. It wouldn't surprise me if NSMB Wii doesn't have online play, but I really wouldn't be disappointed. I like seeing my brother's face when I stomp him into a pit in the DS version, so this won't be any different. :P On the topic of Mario, Brian Crecente's Hair Palace is reporting that Galaxy 2 will be "90% new," with a few of the levels being variations on levels from the original. Does that bother anyone? I don't care, as Miyamoto said they'd be variations, and I'd imagine they'd be optimized to make use of the new gameplay elements. Plus, the vast majority will be brand new levels. Some of the comenters there were really being Debbie Downers about it, though…I could care less, I just want it. :D But I have to finish the original first! Stupid school got in my way. I need to make better use of my summer!

{Reminder: these three discussions were happening at the same time}

Guttlesswonder

No one else will talk about Sony. WTF people, get over that rotund Italian pedofile with a mustache named Mario. He's bald under that cap I say, flipping bald!

Tactix

....sony fanboy....

Eternalplayer

It's a good thing you guys don't mind because Miyamoto just confirmed no online for the game. Oh well, I have to say that Nintendo was catering to the hardcore this year. I too hate the "casual and hardcore" labels but imagine if you were one of these new gamers that are starting out with the Wii. You have two games that really appeal to you and the rest was all classical gaming type stuff.

It's is a little disappointing to hear about the 10% rehash but some levels in Galaxy were really amazing so hopefully they will pick the best of the bunch to put out. I'm glad the reason they are returning to Galaxy is because they had so many ideas they couldn't explore them all. I felt like some of the stuff they did in that game was ingenious but still the whole concept of playing with gravity like that had some more to be explored and it looks like they feel the same way. Just imagine if they had decided to put out Super mario 64 2 back in the day. We would have all lost our mind back then and its the same for me now. Here's hoping that there is something to spice it up, I would love to see Wart make a return!

Mario and Luigi 3 explores Bowser in a humorous way again and for some reason I can never get enough of that. I just think there is so many ways you could develop him, I already kinda have a bleeding heart for the guy. Unfortunately, it's a bit embarassing to admit but something that always makes me unsettled in games or even movies is the whole going into other people's bodies. So hopefully I can soldier through this game.

So was anyone convinced to buy a DSi during the conference. I've been on the edge for a while and it looks like I'm staying there. I want wario ware DYI more than anything but it looks like I'll have to wait until they announce some more intresting games that you need a DSi for (or until hey come out with a pink one!).

Gatorsax2010

Eternalplayer, I definitely want a DSi now thanks to Wario. And I only just got a Lite (thanks, Dtoid!). Also, I forgot to mention how completely pumped I am for Bowser's Inside Story. I love all Mario RPG games, I love the Mario & Luigi series, and I love Bowser, especially as portrayed in the RPGs.

The Metroid fanboy in me wants more people to talk about Other M! I just watched the trailer again. Looks like it may have some side- scrolling elements! And in addition to Ridley and Adam, Mother Brain from Super Metroid makes an appearance! And is that Sylux's body in the snow? I may have to force myself to finish Hunters. I also may end up watching this 100 more times to see what info I might be able to glean from it.

Wexx

Ugh, Hunters. I got stuck in that game and never beat it. But yeah, Other M looks awesome, at first I thought it was going to be the side scroller that everyone has wanted for years, but then I saw the first person sequences and frowned a little bit. It still looks like it'll be a fun game, though. I'm interested to see how more hand-to-hand combat will change the way that game feels, along with a more focused story.


Metroid: Other M by Team Ninja..are you excited or skeptical?

Gatorsax2010

Not part of the conference, but Miyamoto apparently said in his invite- only seminar that they wanted to show off the new Zelda, but it wasn't ready. He said it would be out 2010 at the earliest, though it might (read: will) take longer. He even showed off concept art (which wasn't allowed to be photographed, though it apparently looked TP-esque). [You can find that image here – Tactix]

Maybe it's because I've been conditioned to love Nintendo since I was about 2, but I definitely thought this year's E3 was a step in the right direction. I was really impressed with most of Nintendo's big announcements, and impressions from people at E3 are promising. I'm also really surprised at the amount of speculation the new Zelda art has generated, and I have to give a shout-out to what has a chance to become my favorite DS game of the year, Scribblenauts (don't believe me? Look at this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16184727&postcount=217)

In a broader sense, this really was a great E3 for all of the Big 3. Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft all had some great announcements. It makes me wish I had more money time. Everybody wins!

---------------

Thats all for the Nintendo edition! Stay tuned on Friday for the final edition, where we discuss Sony's conference!

Welcome to an extra special edition of Dtoid Community Discusses! Unless you have been living under a rock, you know that E3 happened last week. Destructoid has brought you the greatest coverage of one of the largest game conventions, from psychic predictions, an epic KarE3oke party, and loads of liveblogging and video interviews. With all this new information that came out last week, there is TONS to talk about! Like our buddies over at Failcast, DCD has taken on an interesting format this week. Through last week, while E3 was going on, a large panel of Destructoid community members discussed the big three presentations in different discussion threads.

First up, was Microsoft and its very interesting show. What did Dtoid Community members have to say about this show? Members of this discussion included Wexx, Ryu89, BunnyRabbit2, ScottyG and Guttlesswonder. Read on to find out what they thought!



Tactix

It starts!

So the Microsoft show finished and I want to get your first impressions of the news. The show started with tons of games announced, such as Beatles Rock Band, the new Tony Hawk game, and then teasing Halo: Reach and showing a bit (finally of Alan Wake). Then things went crazy....Xbox Live started showing off all its new collaborations such as last.fm, Facebook, and even Twitter (!), not to mention what I wanted from the start...a LiveParty system that allowed you to watch movies with your friends (can you say ShiMuNi anyone?)

Then we got a couple of *not* surprises, such as the fact that the 360 was getting a MGS game featuring Raiden called MGS: Rising, and also motion controls. But this motion control that we knew was coming could not have been anticipated. Called Project Natal, it involves using a motion capture camera that has face recognition and will allow you to play games by just moving your body. Peter Molyneaux was even on hand to introduce us to Milo, his first project using this new technology. Twitter has been going crazy calling Natal the coming of Skynet, and who knows if they are actually right? And that wrapped the show.

So....whatdya think?! Are you excited for the games? Does XBLA really need all these new functionalities? Is the Wii doomed?

Wexx

I wasn't really that impressed by the Microsoft conference. Sure, New Metal Gear game being exclusive and Left 4 Dead 2 is kind of cool, but I don't really see the Natal thing coming into its own in the near future. All they showed were tech demos, and unless they already have some developers putting some real games on it, I don't see the point of it, other than looking like an asshat switching your movies with your hands.

Left 4 Dead 2 really rubs me the wrong way for some reason though. Sure, I'm excited for more of that universe, but a sequel, already? The SDK just barely came out a month ago for the first game, shouldn't this just be a patch? I know Microsoft fees for DLC are ridiculous, but seriously? Why change the way you've done business — for, oh, a decade? — to accommodate their decrepit platform that's trying to microtransaction the shit out of its customers. Hell, if they put it out as a DLC pack on the 360 I'd pay for it on the PC. I just don't like the idea of Valve doing a sequel barely a year after the game was released. If they continue this trend I'm not sure what to think of them anymore.


Left 4 Dead 2 teaser trailer. Does it rub you the wrong way?

BunnyRabbit2

I pretty much sat here going nuts on most of it. I am sad to say I will be poor when these games come out because I will be buying so many. Crackdown 2, L4D2 and MW2 are all must buys because I enjoyed the first one of each so much. That new Splinter Cell game looks to be pretty much the exact kind of game I am looking for right now. It has the right mix of 24, Jason Bourne and Splinter Cell to be enjoyable as hell and I can't wait for that. Forza 3 looks a blast and the video thing had me very, very impressed.

The Halo stuff I will get just because I am a dirty whore for Bungie and will take anything they give me. Seeing ODST I am reminded of Star Wars: Republic Commando a hell of a lot and that can only be a good thing. Alan Wake looks fun and MGS sounds cool but those are two I'll need more info on to be sure about. Overall MS has impressed me a lot and I'm actually looking forward to the other conferences just to see how they match up to this.

Ryu89

I agree that Left 4 Dead 2 seems kind of like a phone in. Where's Half Life 2 Episode 3? Where's Portal 2, which I was expecting considering how short the original is. On other fronts, ODST looks awesome but it was pretty much what I was expecting in the first place. Alan Wake looks very interesting and I am looking forward to it. The facebook/twitter/ last.fm stuff just does not appeal to me. The game that REALLY got to me however was Splinter Cell Conviction. It really looks like a really fluid experience. The floating word stuff is out of place for sure, but I really like it, it gives the game alot of STYLE.

I would like to take this paragraph to talk about Natal. I honestly wasn't expecting to care about it that much. At first I was right, there was casual stuff like the paint thing that really wasn't my thing. However, what Peter Molyneux showed off COULD be groundbreaking, if what’s there isn’t faked like it could totally be. If that video was for real, that means that we are closer to creating true AI. The technology could improve the industry where if you are playing a shooter, for example, and you start taking hits, and your real life face shows frustration, the enemy AI might know to be more aggressive and take advantage of the situation.

Just an idea. What do you guys think?

ScottyG

As a primarily PC Gamer... just... don't mention being willing to pay for PC DLC. :(

I will agree that aside from the director being able to change level layouts on the fly, L4D 2 (they need to change that name into a better pun... Left 4 Dead: 2gether maybe?) seems more like an expansion pack than a sequel. Honestly though I don't blame Valve. It sounds like it's still getting healthy play on the 360, but I've been sick of it on the PC for awhile now (although I might be alone on this). Sorry 360 fans, but I really hope Valve makes this one with the PC primarily in mind.

One thing to note though is that they used the TF2 Scout's bat sound for a melee weapon (presumably a bat). ^_^

Wexx

True Scotty, but I'd rather pay 15 dollars for all of that stuff, as opposed to $40-$50 for it.

Guttlesswonder

At the moment I would say that Natal is nothing more than a concept video. I would assume that much like the PSeye, something like that would be plagued with a lot of problems such as very specific lighting requirements and the need for other people to remain virtually motionless as you race your car down a virtual road. If they can pull it off it would be nice, however I think it would fall the same as the PSeye, a fun toy but hardly an optimal interface.

As far as the Halo's goes I find ODST/DSTO/TODS/STD to be nothing more than a MOD appearing on an engine that is quickly showing its age, and using an outline style to somewhat mask fact much like Crackdown did. Halo: Reach is the very obvious way for Bungie and MS to keep Master Chief in the forefront of peoples minds without immediately bringing him magically back from the end of Halo 3, which no doubt will happen.

Silent Hill + Twin Peaks + Max Payne = Alan Wake!?!


Does Project Natal look like nothing more than a concept video to you?

ScottyG

Heh, I do like the shot they took at the Wii during the Ricochet demo. Shame the actual product won't be anything even remotely like the family play trailer might lead us to believe.

Man... I nearly wet myself when I saw the Alan Wake videos. Then Sam Lake had to kill my boner by saying Spring 2010... I've been waiting for that game for far too long. :(

BunnyRabbit2

With L4D2 I just think people are forgetting that by the time it comes out, L4D will have been out for roughly a year. That game as it stands right now doesn't have the content to still be fresh then. It might well be fun but people will want more. Whereas Valve normally do what they have done with TF2 with the class updates and custom maps, they are this time adding in as much if not more content than was originally in the game before. I have no problem with them charging full price because although little is changing, there is a lot of new content. It was the same with Rainbow Six Vegas 2. Essentially the same thing but with extra bits on top set inside lots of new maps.

Natal has me very interested indeed. The tech demos were impressive but when me and a few of my housemates were bouncing ideas around we really saw the potential in it. There's all sort of fun casual games you could make with it but I think that if used as an extension to the controller rather than a replacement it could lead to all sorts of interesting stuff.

--------------

Thats all for the Microsoft conference! Stay tuned on Wednesday, when we discuss Nintendo's conference and then Friday for Sony's!

Hey all! Welcome to another edition of Dtoid Community Discusses! It's been a busy couple of weeks for me here, and I'm nearing the completion of my first research project (fingers crossed). Anyway, for those uninitiated, Dtoid Community Discusses is a weekly (or biweekly depending on my grad school) c-blog feature which involves asking Destructoid community members to discuss a topic, which I place in this cblog. You can check out some past discussions on the sidebar (over there).

This week, I went to the forums for some topic ideas, and this one comes from JT706. The topic is emulation and game modding, and here is the topic that I sent out to our panel:

Tactix

Modding. Its no secret that many gamers like to emulate games and even change them to their own liking. Sometimes game companies just let it slide, while other times, they come down hard with an iron fist (i.e. Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes). In there cease and desist, Square Enix claims that ROM altering and modification is illegal.

However, there are some mods that were successful! Just think of Garry's Mod, and how Valve basically ran with it and is now also making money off of it. Anyway, what do you think of moding/emulating? Is it really illegal? How should game companies deal with the inevitability of it occuring? If you guys could mod any game, what game would you like to see modded and how so? Mother 3 – DO WANT! "

Our panel consists of Technophile, Ckarasu, and JT706....read on to find out what they thought!



Ckarasu

Hmmm. Emulating and its legality is a somewhat tricky question. Personally, I believe people should just buy the game instead of downloading it and denying the publishers and developers the money they deserve (especially if you want a sequel).There are a few exceptions like if the game is out of print, or it was never released in the US. In those cases I believe that it is acceptable to use emulators. I mean, how else am I going to play a translated version of Super Robot Wars Alpha Gaiden (let alone buy the game)?

Modding games, on the other hand, I have no problem with. Why should company's care what people do with their games so long as they're buying the game? They're still making money, so it shouldn't really matter.

Technophile

I'm no lawyer, but I was under the impression that unless you sell it, it's not "illegal" so to speak. Sure, modding the game and distributing it typically violates all sorts of license agreements and terms of use, but "illegal"? I don't think so. Then again, I'm no lawyer.

I think Valve has always been ahead of the curve when it comes to handling the mod community. The support it and they hire from within it. Valve gets a good reputation with the modding community and Valve gets free content. Well, not free in the sense they just take it and upload it, they do their own work on it but I believe the bulk of it is done already. If companies want to support it, they should take a page from Valve. Square is going about it the absolutely wrong way.

Emulating on the other hand, I have to agree with Ckarasu. I just don't think most companies are going to pursue it on a user to user basis. It's too difficult to prove with all that "it's ok if you own a legal copy" stuff. I think they will continue to go after the sites that host the roms rather then individuals, especially now with platforms like the Virtual Console and PSN where this stuff could potentially come out and revenue is lost. As far as older games go anyway. I think emulating or torrenting anything that's come out in the last 4 years or so is just straight up theft.

Ckarasu

Yeah, Valve seems to really know how to approach the issue. Instead of getting angry, they actually endorse it. I'm not sure why Square Enix fails to see the profit from this. I guess they're just uptight. I mean, it's not like it would really hurt them to make use of the modding community. Hopefully they'll learn that mods can be a good thing, but I wouldn't count on it.

Technophile makes a good point about emulating. It just isn't worth it for them to go after someone who downloads a ROM. They'll, lose more money and it won't even help solve the problem. I don't think there is an easy way to solve the issue. DRM has done nothing but increase piracy and disdain towards the companies that use it. I suppose the only real way to prevent rampant piracy is to get on the good side of the gaming community. If people like you and want more of your games, then they're less likely to pirate them. It won't solve the problem, but it helps.



...ahead of the curve when it comes to handling the mod community..


JT706

It seems that the divide between the companies that promote modding and the ones who try to quash it are clearly defined: PC game companies encourage modding, console game companies try to stamp it out, or at best refuse to acknowledge it.

PC games have been encouraging mods since the original Doom, creating an online modification community that's launched careers and spawned entirely new game franchises- if it weren't for dedicated fans slaving away over keyboards and mouses, we wouldn't have Counterstrike or Team Fortress. In the PC gaming world, modding is so welcomed that newer games such as Civilization 4 and the Elder Scrolls are released with source code either bundled with the software or available online.

Console games, on the other hand, are baffilingly opposed to fan mods. In spite of logging hours and hours of free labor to open up Mother 3 to North American audiences, the most reward the people at Starmen.net are ever going to get from Nintendo is a lack of legal action against them- unlike, say, the group of Smash Bros. Brawl hackers who recently got a C&D before they could release a new character texture pack. Of course, there's also at Chrono Compendium: Crimson Echoes is now the second Chrono Trigger fan game to be stomped on by Square Enix, following CT: Ressurection.

Maybe someone else here can imagine how this policy makes business sense- the shortsighted aim of "stopping piracy" is hardly served by attacking the makers of fan games, and, as Valve and others have proven, the windfall of promoting mods- new games and dedicated employees- far outweigh the imagined profits of legal action.

Tactix

I'm not much of a PC gamer, so I don't know much about the game modding community, but I do believe that it is something that companies shouldn't get angry about. If anything, a good mod will only cause gamers to want to purchase the game even MORE in order to play the mod. (I'm sure the presence Garry's Mod sold tons of games for the Source engine alone). And some mods are just awesome, like the fact you can change all of the sounds in Left 4 Dead to Randy Savage :D.

I think that since retro games are so big now and companies are trying to cash in with VC and PSN is part of the reason for the huge push to fight piracy. Before companies knew they could make so much money on releasing their own "emulators", it wasn’t a big deal. Now it is.

Anyway, speaking a little about emulation....We know that Nintendo was excited to release a new DSi in part to fight off R4 users, but ALREADY there is a way to emulate games on the DSi. What should Nintendo do about R4's and the like? Do you guys NOT own an R4?

Technophile

It's funny how all the examples you mentioned against console modding were all Nintendo. Nintendo has always been against anything that isn't officially licensed by them. That's the way they are.

I think the real reason we don't see a whole lot of console mods is because it's a closed box system. Not only do the developers and publishers have to make sure it's on the up and up but they also have to get Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo to allow people to modify their hardware or allow people to distribute mods via their network and that's never going to happen. That's why there will probably never be a "legit" modding community for consoles. Mods are one of the benefits of PC gaming, whereas with consoles you can pretty much guarantee a level playing field competitively (usually, provided people don't hack the game).

I'm all for stopping piracy, but it's never going to go away and attacking legitimate fans isn't the way to do it either. In that I totally agree.

As far as R4's go, never had one. Never modded my psp either. I used to emulate back in the day, but I don't even do that anymore. I've nothing against people who do, I just don't feel right doing it. Not since I started working in the industry anyway and seen how much work goes into making even a crappy remake for XBLA. That and honestly, it's kind of a pain in the ass. Finding roms that aren't messed up or play weird or finding emulators that work right. I'm lazy.



Always against whats isnt officially licensed by them....but anyway, this image came up when I google imaged searched Nintendo, which comes from Cronosblade's cblog. I could think of no better picture to represent Dtoid :P

Ckarasu

I believe that console modding can one day become "legit". It may be a while (maybe the next generation of consoles, if there is one). Sooner or later, I think the companies will one day see how profitable it can be. Until then, I guess you will have to go to PC gaming if you want fan made content.

I think another problem (in regards to piracy) comes from how easy the internet makes it to upload and download games. You don't even have to use a Torrent to download them, as there are plenty to find at Mega Upload, Mediafire or Rapidshare. Sure, some are reported, but many seem to remain unnoticed for a while (or are replaced soon after deletion). You simply download, extract and play. It's just too easy, unfortunately.

Like Technophile, I have not hacked my PSP or used an R4. The DS has plenty of good games at affordable prices, so I never felt the need for it. The PSP, on the other hand, doesn't have any games that I'd want to pirate. Besides, I would feel too guilty to actually download a game illegally (for any of the recent consoles, that is). I'm a softie, I know.

Tactix

I'm just curious, would you all consider things like Game Genie/ Game Shark a light version of console modding? If so, did you use a Game Genie back in the day? I remember my Game Genie added so much playability to the games I had and actually made me want to buy certain games just so I could use it. What were some of your favorite Game Genie codes?

Technophile

I just wanted to mention that the game shark is awesome and I totally had one. I consider it what it is, basically a hacking tool. It changes the hexadecimal values in the code to do it's work, so I would totally classify that as a hacking tool. It was a genius idea and I honestly hope they made a ton of money off of it. It was probably the closest to modding on console as we will see for a long long time in my opinion.

----------------------------------------

Anyway, thats all for this week. Stay tuned for next week, when I am planning for some epic DCD E3 coverage! Until then, go play games!

Hey there!

Sorry for the day late DCD, but I had an EPIC day of volleyball on Sunday, which cause me to pass out really early and not have time to put this together.....but its here now, so you can stop writing your congressman about the lack of Dtoid Community Discusses this Monday :P

Anyway, this week we have an interesting topic for several of the Dtoid Community members to discuss, and that would be Level Design. This is the prompt as sent out to the panel:

Tactix

"Level Design. Its an integral part to gaming, and can easily make or break a game. A game that does it right will pratically be unnoticed, but a game that does it wrong makes you curse the developers.

Interestingly enough, out of all the games that have been made, the same sorts of levels show up. Underwater levels and temples, lava levels, ice worlds....all these are traditional aspects of level design that either make for very interesting levels, or very VERY frustrating experiences.

What are some of your favorite levels? What are your least favorites? What games have really good level design and which suck? What levels would you like to see that sort of break the mold of what we currently see?"

This week's panel consists of GBreaux, Aborto thefetus, RonBurgandy2010, and Ok_Abacus. Read on to find out what they had to say!



GBreaux

To touch on the topic of levels repeating themselves in various games (i.e. lava and water levels), it's a structure that is easy to fall back on as a designer. Not to mention that game designers today are the game players of yesterday. We all remember playing through Mario and Zelda for hours and probably never once though about level design. But we call say, "YEA you remember the desert part, with the like likes?!" The levels of yesteryear are stuck in our head and when trying to design levels of our own, we revert to what we know. So its no surprise that game designers fall back on what they remember and are fond of. It also doesn't require too much creative thinking when you can just do a grass level or an underwater level, which allows for the designers to focus on other aspects like mechanics or story. Personally, if done right, level design should be as big and meaningful as game mechanics, as subtle and memorable as the music, and as fluid and challenging as game progression.

One aspect of level design that I always find intriguing is this notion of escapism. My oldest memories of playing video games was to leave the real world around me and spend hours in Hyrule, adventuring. This also lead to hours spent in the woods behind my house fighting of Skultullas (banana spiders). Good level design also incorporates immersion. For a player to feel like they have left their surroundings you have to make the in game settings become a second home. The levels should be as real and memorable to the players as the world they left in the first place. You have to give the player a reason to keep coming back. Having the art and mechanics congruent with the rest of the game helps present a realized, believable world. One of the easiest ways to lose players is bad level design. If a player doesn't feel like they belong in the world you present to them, game over.

Zelda wouldn't feel the same if it was in a big city like San Andreas and vice versa. Levels have to fit the setting and action appropriately. Don't give me an underwater level if the game is based on the moon.

In closing, I would say that Psychonauts is one of the best out there as far as level design. The levels stayed challenging, presented something new each level, and nothing ever felt repeated or bland.

Ok_Abacus

Well there's a certain part of level design that's just a continuation of old video game-isms that need to die out. There's a need for variety in levels in a game but the problem is that they end up falling into the "ice level, fire level, earth boss, wind boss".

Aborto

I know alot of people have problems with the stereotypical fire, water. etc. but personally, I have no problems if a game has levels like these as long as they do something that differentiates itself from other Fire/water levels in other games. Skullmonkeys, one of my all time favorite games, has a lot of levels like this but the games style and humor make these levels stand out and feel drastically different despite having similar settings to other games.

Really, I don't think the setting in a level constitutes bad level design. It could make bad level design insufferable, but a dull setting doesn't always ruin a games level design. What I think makes a game's level design bad or good is how easy it is to navigate through it. If you know what to do and understand what needs to be done to progress in the game then that is good level design. If you reach a point in the game where you have no goddamn idea what it is you are supposed to do or where you are supposed to go, that is bad design. Probably the best example I can think of this is a game I used to play on the Sega Genesis called Chakan. If you never heard of this game, keep it that way. Pretty much every level is like this where you reach a point and you have no idea what you are supposed to do. One level just ends at a brick wall and I had no idea what to do until I learned completely by accident that there were invisible platforms that allowed you to progress. If that isn't bad level design, I don't know what is.



Yes...the floor is LAVA. Yet again.

RonBurgandy2010

In my opinion, there are two main types of level design: open-world and linear. The open-world approach gives that designer the opportunity to create a living, breathing, believable world that these characters live in and the story takes place. When done properly, like in Fallout 3, exploration is a reward in itself. During my time in the wasteland I uncovered a mad scientist, a town with a fluctuating government, and a vault that became the home of some demented cult of clones. All of this added to the sense that I was in a living, breathing world that wasn't just the backdrop of some game; I felt like I was there and felt close to the events and bizarre discoveries that came up.

Linear gameplay, while offering much less freedom to explore to the player, gives the designer more power over what the player will feel here, what they will see, what they will do.

Open-world games give the player freedom, but take away freedom from the designer. Think about the Half-Life series. By taking away the option to explore, Valve has instead decided to tailor the limited surroundings the player will encounter to have the player feel and do as they want. In Fallout 3, you don't have to enter that creepy-looking building; there is not really any motivation other than curiosity. In Half-Life, you do the things you do not only because you are forced to by the designer, you want to. There is more motivation than curiosity in play here. Thinking of Ravenholm, you didn't keep going because forward was the only direction; you kept going because you wanted to get the fuck out of there.

There lies the balance that must be maintained. By taking freedom from the player, the designer is able to create a more memorable experience and one that is more likely to give you an adrenalin boost. By giving the player the freedom to explore, the designer is able to make a living world for the player to dick around in and explore. The decision in what approach to use lies in what kind of game experience are you trying to present- focused one or an open one?

Personally, I prefer a linear approach because I tend to keep interest. Some open world games just don't offer any reason to explore and then I lose interest.

Aborto

As far as linear and non-linear level design, I prefer linear mainly because I find that developers haven't mastered non-linear level design. For the most part, I find the level design or world design or whatever you want to call it in open world games to be really boring and repetitive. Like Ronburgandy2010 said, non-linear level design should reward exploration and I don't think alot of games do that outside of collectibles hidden throughout the world. I really like Elder Scrolls Oblivion, but I have to admit the design behind that world was very poor and I never really had the interest to go out and explore the world outside of the quests because a lot of the world felt like the same patch of forest repeated over and over again. Fallout 3 was definitely a step up from that because the world felt a little more varied and there were alot of things I could find, like the aforementioned vault of insane clones and a crashed alien spaceship with an incredibly powerful weapon at the crash site. I'd definitely like to see Bethesda's next game if the drastic difference in environmental design between Oblivion and Fallout 3 is any indication on Bethesda’s abilities.

RonBurgandy2010

Exploration has been a staple in games for decades. Things like Easter eggs, secret weapons and powerups are rewards that have been around for a while, given the player is interested in the game enough to explore. The exploration element really doesn't belong to one type of level design any more than the other. It's just that in open-world games, the designer is building a game around the exploration element of games as a means to give the player more to do, some games just don't really offer much incentive to. Linear games rely much less on exploration, usually offering some bonus content like concept art or the like as a reward, if the game has anything to be found in the first place.


You know who likes to explore and find shiny hidden packages? That guy.

Ok_Abacus

Elder Scrolls definitely had an issue in the open-world design in that there was nothing to do for most of it except walk from point A to point C, occasionally stopping at point B. Which is part of the reason I never understood the hype for the massive game world in Fallout 3. If there's nothing to do, then what’s the point?

GTA4 remedied many of these issues since the game world was packed with a lot to do whether one was on a story mission or not. There were random side missions or people on the street that asked you to do mini-missions. But there was still an issue when it came time to travel on certain story quests or go from one island to another (although getting a taxi and skipping the travel resolved some of that). It injected the constant action, goal-oriented gameplay from linear games into the non-linear or open world scope. That being said, I'm not sure how a game would overcome all the problems of having a massive game world.

RonBurgandy2010

I'm not really sure there's anything that can be done to make open-worlds more interesting. Think of your daily life. You are living in an open-world setting, there's a world going on around you. You want to explore the city, go ahead, the only reward you may find is a hobo and a mugging. Games have a base in real life (somewhere), and in the open-world design, there's not much else they can do. I really can't see open-world level design evolving much more.

There lies the balance that must be maintained. By taking freedom from the player, the designer is able to create a more memorable experience and one that is more likely to give you an adrenalin boost. By giving the player the freedom to explore, the designer is able to make a living world for the player to dick around in and explore. The decision in what approach to use lies in what kind of game experience are you trying to present- focused one or an open one?

Ok_Abacus

Bioshock played the line very well in design between linear and non-linear. On one hand, the game was fairly straightforward with clear goals and confined spaces, however it explicitly rewards players for exploration with the audiotapes and the weapon upgrade machines. Even in working in the small area underwater, it manages to combine action with exploration in ways that I'm not sure the Elder Scrolls or Fallouts of the world do.

RonBurgandy2010

Yeah, Bioshock was one of those games that appear to give more freedom than is actually offered. While it promotes exploration, it has a very rigid, very linear design. It's not linear to the extreme that the Half-Life series is however. It gives the sensation of an open-world/linear world hybrid.

In Bioshock, the player is placed in a number of individual, self-contained levels throughout the course of the game, likening back to a time when your progress could actually be expressed with a level number. Each of these levels is a collection of hallways, courtyards, theaters, etc. What gives the player the sensation that they are in a large, open world is that the levels are set up so that they span in all directions with hallways and corridors connecting the level and making it traversable by many points. The levels are large in themselves, not necessarily keeping a major theme throughout the area (the ice level, water temple, etc.), which makes the environments much more varied and divers, feeling more like a world rather than a section of it. The idea of randomly wandering enemies is another brilliant way in which they gave the impression of a large, breathing world without actually making one.

However, I feel that it stays strictly with the linear genre, it's just crafted so that it feels like a hybrid, it's still very much a linear game.

Ok_Abacus

Well what I've gotten from this DCD is that Bioshock is one of the best games ever made and Fallout/Elder Scrolls are terribly overrated. Please send any and all hate mail to Tactix :)

RonBurgandy2010 (who is utterly amazing)

Wow, that's grossly incorrect.

Tactix

You can only send me hate mail if its in the form of a song :P

<3

RonBurgandy2010 (did I mention he is brilliant? Brilliant.)

I searched "fuck you" on youtube and got this, I didn't even bother listening to it.



-----------------------------

Well, thats all for this week! Hope you enjoyed the discussion, and as always, if you want to be a part of a future discussion, PM your email address to me and I can add you to the list! Until next week!

HEARTS! <3 <3 <3