Yoshimo in Baldur's Gate: Shadows of Amn... he's the best NPC thief in the game to have in your party and he's easily found. If you take him with you into the final battle, he betrays you and fights for the other side. I remember being so angry at the time!
You're right.. it would be awesome to experience this in a multiplayer setting!
You're right.. it would be awesome to experience this in a multiplayer setting!
While I can't relate to most of the references you make some fair points. On the whole "trust" is a weird subject with videogames, AI being what it is. Like you said, scripted events can take what trust you have for characters and detach you from whatever bond you had to them. Then there are games like Mass Effect 2 that generally do a good job letting you get to know the characters, which led me to "trust" some of them more than others on a very personal level. I would like to see some good multiplayer built on trust and betrayal options...
I'm so glad you mentioned Fragile Alliance. Shit's so awesome when you pop somebody, they're crying for help over the mic, and nobody else gives a shit.
Except when it happens to you...
Except when it happens to you...
The Thing was an amazing game, I would love to see a remake of it or somthing comparable! Props on that as it was the first game that came to mind when I started reading!
Freaky that you posted this, I have a little indie game project I'm in the early throws of working on that has lots of emphasis on trusting other players.
And yeah, the short answer to your "let's make a compelling game involving either trust or distrust of other characters" issue is multiplayer. Imagine what "The Thing" would be like if your other teammates weren't AI controlled...you get infected but still get rewarded for duping your teammates, you might be in for some compelling sh*t. I think they should have tried to explore the whole idea that they tested out in "the Thing" at least one more time, even if it was all AI--that's the sort of game ideas I get off on.
Nice little write-up btw.
And yeah, the short answer to your "let's make a compelling game involving either trust or distrust of other characters" issue is multiplayer. Imagine what "The Thing" would be like if your other teammates weren't AI controlled...you get infected but still get rewarded for duping your teammates, you might be in for some compelling sh*t. I think they should have tried to explore the whole idea that they tested out in "the Thing" at least one more time, even if it was all AI--that's the sort of game ideas I get off on.
Nice little write-up btw.
It's the reason I love the Left 4 Dead games. The survivors need to work together. need to I just love the cooperative nature of the gameplay. Kinda sounds like I should either sheep out for Dog Days or pick up Dead Men when that hits. Good concepts are good.
I, too, loved The Thing, at least in theory. There were certainly a fair number of problems around every corner, but the game scared the shit out of me, which is rare for a videogame.
Hmm... I wonder if it's backwards compatible...
Hmm... I wonder if it's backwards compatible...
I don't have much to say (mainly because I couldn't follow your major point) but I would like to mention the non-video game Werewolves. In this game of eight or more people, two or three are secretly assigned to routinely pick off the remaining majority during the cloack of night, while during the day they take the facade of a normal villager. The game plays off each person's ability and willingness to trust one another in determining who the wolves are and lynching one individual per night.
This type of trust mechanic is what I would like to see transfered into video game - successfully, I should add, since The Thing failed so badly. I think I read there was a game somewhat in this style called Drifters. Never got around to playing it myself. As you can see, it's multiplayer - which not a bad thing, but it would be more interesting to see the idea successfully implemented under a single player experience.
This type of trust mechanic is what I would like to see transfered into video game - successfully, I should add, since The Thing failed so badly. I think I read there was a game somewhat in this style called Drifters. Never got around to playing it myself. As you can see, it's multiplayer - which not a bad thing, but it would be more interesting to see the idea successfully implemented under a single player experience.
I don't agree with your views. We must try to become a man of value than a man of success.
Revolution E-Cigarette
Revolution E-Cigarette
@Elsa: You've runed the twist now! Ha! Actually, I don't mind having scripted betrayals in games, like with your example, if it's told right. I really like that initial shock you get from those events. Then it's time to meet my friend PAIN! Doesn't Haze have a similar betrayal ending?
@Wesley: Yeah, intentionally left of Mass Effect 2 since I never felt like I was in any douibt with those characters. They become loyal pretty quickly (with good reason) and for such a homage to The Dirty Dozen, nobody goes all Telly Savalas-crazy and decides to stab a German hooker, thus throwing a wild card into the mission.
@Daxelman: Yep. You summed it up nicely, but I don't have the heart to turn traitor much. I prefer watching people rush in and get cut down for their stupidity. Bigger share without turning traitor...until you get to the van.
@Mix and Booerns: If someone could remake the movie on the Source Engine, say something like The Ship, but with team-splitting objectives thrown in like sabotage or repair work, then I'd be all over that game.
@grafkhun: Oh yeah, AI will always get better. It's basically infant stages for the industry. Even if it was up to scratch, it also takes time and money, right? The industry has a tough mountain to climb, that's for sure.
@Gareth: I'd skip Dead Men and play Dog Days' version Fragile Alliance. The original's server are pretty much dead now (save for stragglers like myself) and the latest one has nearly all the flaws ironed out.
@Used: Ha! For a rapper who's just had his organisation rumbled by a rat, he sounds pretty mellow about it. Ohhhh yeah, weed.
@Dixon: Yeah, I loved it the first time around, but I'd avoid replays because you'll discover how broken that game is. I think The Spoony Experiment sums it up nicely.
@Byronic: "...mainly because I couldn't follow your major point" I'll admit I was broadening out at times because I knew someone would say "well what about this game?", but basically I'm saying we don't see games where the computer AI betrays you in an offline situation in the same way a human being does. To me, the AI would work better in a team situation or a confined location where usually you make one or two choices and the loyalty established.
Later on, I was saying how would that work in a murder mystery and how becoming handicapped leads to less frustration on the player's side for not being smart enough to pick up every detail.
You're pretty much on the same page though!
Yeah, there's a lot of board games that deal with trust, like Zombies!!!, where players help and hinder simultaneously. Why they haven't been translated over to videogames yet is a mystery.
Also, a spambot disagrees with me. IT HAS BECOME SENTIENT! RUN!
@Wesley: Yeah, intentionally left of Mass Effect 2 since I never felt like I was in any douibt with those characters. They become loyal pretty quickly (with good reason) and for such a homage to The Dirty Dozen, nobody goes all Telly Savalas-crazy and decides to stab a German hooker, thus throwing a wild card into the mission.
@Daxelman: Yep. You summed it up nicely, but I don't have the heart to turn traitor much. I prefer watching people rush in and get cut down for their stupidity. Bigger share without turning traitor...until you get to the van.
@Mix and Booerns: If someone could remake the movie on the Source Engine, say something like The Ship, but with team-splitting objectives thrown in like sabotage or repair work, then I'd be all over that game.
@grafkhun: Oh yeah, AI will always get better. It's basically infant stages for the industry. Even if it was up to scratch, it also takes time and money, right? The industry has a tough mountain to climb, that's for sure.
@Gareth: I'd skip Dead Men and play Dog Days' version Fragile Alliance. The original's server are pretty much dead now (save for stragglers like myself) and the latest one has nearly all the flaws ironed out.
@Used: Ha! For a rapper who's just had his organisation rumbled by a rat, he sounds pretty mellow about it. Ohhhh yeah, weed.
@Dixon: Yeah, I loved it the first time around, but I'd avoid replays because you'll discover how broken that game is. I think The Spoony Experiment sums it up nicely.
@Byronic: "...mainly because I couldn't follow your major point" I'll admit I was broadening out at times because I knew someone would say "well what about this game?", but basically I'm saying we don't see games where the computer AI betrays you in an offline situation in the same way a human being does. To me, the AI would work better in a team situation or a confined location where usually you make one or two choices and the loyalty established.
Later on, I was saying how would that work in a murder mystery and how becoming handicapped leads to less frustration on the player's side for not being smart enough to pick up every detail.
You're pretty much on the same page though!
Yeah, there's a lot of board games that deal with trust, like Zombies!!!, where players help and hinder simultaneously. Why they haven't been translated over to videogames yet is a mystery.
Also, a spambot disagrees with me. IT HAS BECOME SENTIENT! RUN!
@Stevil: There was a Zombies!!! game in development for XBLA at one point, but I haven't heard anything about it in over a year. Think I'll poke around and see what happened to it.
If there is a way to model trust non-linearly, e.g. through system dynamics (after all, trust between two or more people is a system of sorts), you can probably create an intresting, somewhat unpredictable dynamic in a game.
@Conrad: I vaguely remember that, but I don't think I ever saw anything beyond the announcement. I'd love to see an online version though, mainly because it takes ages setting up all those tiles with the tokens and zombies!
@NateT: My brain just melted watching that diagram. I think I understood it though! I'd like to see some real randomisation, but for it work at the most realistic of times, there would have to be some kind of calculated system involved; which kind of leads on to a system that can be "broken" over several replays. I guess it's all about program balance really. I'm not a developer, so I'm probably talking nonsense.
Also, I forgot to mention a scenario like Saw II where a bunch of people have the choice to work together on tasks or take the selfish route, though probably that would work better as a multiplayer idea. I hated that movie, but I like the Cube-inspired idea it used.
@NateT: My brain just melted watching that diagram. I think I understood it though! I'd like to see some real randomisation, but for it work at the most realistic of times, there would have to be some kind of calculated system involved; which kind of leads on to a system that can be "broken" over several replays. I guess it's all about program balance really. I'm not a developer, so I'm probably talking nonsense.
Also, I forgot to mention a scenario like Saw II where a bunch of people have the choice to work together on tasks or take the selfish route, though probably that would work better as a multiplayer idea. I hated that movie, but I like the Cube-inspired idea it used.
I trusted Yoshi once. Hit one turtle and the coward turned tail and ran. Broke my heart he did.
I really haven't played many games built on fragile trust. Or any, really, come to think of it. I oughta spend more time fixing that. Anyway, really nice blog.
I really haven't played many games built on fragile trust. Or any, really, come to think of it. I oughta spend more time fixing that. Anyway, really nice blog.
I would love to see this concept explored further in games. Both ME2 and DA:O dip their toes into the subject area but they do it in such a telegraphed and blatant manner (with meters and bars telling you just how much each NPC adores you) that it is only interesting if you purposefully engage it. A player just going through for the optimal result can easily gain everyones favour (until the very end of DA:O anyway) without alienating anyone else.
I want this to be done much more subtlely, on the backend, behind a curtain the player can't see. I would love it if it wasn't just blatant choices that impacted NPCs trust in you ("save the village or ignore them", "give the NPC a weapon" ect), but play style and other cues. A more pacifistic NPC in the party could be shocked by your extremely aggressive Bash and Slash fighting style and secretly growing to not trust you or think you are too dangerous to be given power over the course of a game. Your shock trooper buddy has nothing but disdain for your dainty sniper work and his frustration is bubbling over to the point that he will start disregarding orders and rush ahead to engage the enemy. The archer in your party has noticed that you frequently cast healing spells on party memebers first even if you are injured, gaining his silent respec, and so on.
Sure it would make optimal runs more diffficult to manipulate and that may put some players off, but I would really enjoy a more organic type of gameplay.
I want this to be done much more subtlely, on the backend, behind a curtain the player can't see. I would love it if it wasn't just blatant choices that impacted NPCs trust in you ("save the village or ignore them", "give the NPC a weapon" ect), but play style and other cues. A more pacifistic NPC in the party could be shocked by your extremely aggressive Bash and Slash fighting style and secretly growing to not trust you or think you are too dangerous to be given power over the course of a game. Your shock trooper buddy has nothing but disdain for your dainty sniper work and his frustration is bubbling over to the point that he will start disregarding orders and rush ahead to engage the enemy. The archer in your party has noticed that you frequently cast healing spells on party memebers first even if you are injured, gaining his silent respec, and so on.
Sure it would make optimal runs more diffficult to manipulate and that may put some players off, but I would really enjoy a more organic type of gameplay.
This is all very new to me and this article really opened my eyes.Thanks for sharing with us your wisdom.
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