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Community Discussion: Blog by Shawn Kelfonne | Good Idea/Bad Idea: Level ScalingDestructoid
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About
Well, let's see, I've got a ridiculously sized game collection, spanning from Coleco to Wii, with much of what's in between. The Super Nintendo was the height of awesome for me, and I still break it out once in a while to relive those memories.

I'm also a fairly big RPG nut, recently been playing WoW, may god have mercy on my soul.

I've got all three "current-gen" systems, and love them all for various reasons.


Currently playing:
WoW
Rock Band 2(360)


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RPG Spotlight:
SuperHero League of Hoboken
Anvil of Dawn
Vampire:The Masquerade:Bloodlines
Nethack
Albion
Avernum
Arcanum:Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Dragon Wars

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So you're a weakling farmboy or farmgirl, heading out into epic adventure and you come across a group of monsters that you just can't defeat. Not to worry! You just happen to be in an RPG, and if things are too difficult, you can always spend some time picking on the weaker enemies for experience and lunch money.. most of the time. What if while you were off killing enemies and gaining experience, the annoying boss that just killed you was out doing the exact same thing? Level scaling is generally meant to infuse some sort of constant challenge into an RPG, but may end up missing the point of why most people play RPGs to begin with.

The Bad:
On the bad side of things, we'll start with Final Fantasy VIII. Now, setting aside the fact that many didn't like FFVIII because it wasn't Final Fantasy VII-2:Electric Boogaloo, it probably didn't gain any points with gamers due to its rather different systems either. Think for a moment if FFVII was your first RPG and you were accustomed to overcoming your challenges by simply getting stronger and taking another whack at it. This same strategy in FFVIII was utterly useless. Stat gains from Level Up were negligible in the long run, and enemies gained ridiculous amounts of HP and other stats as they leveled up along with your party. FFVIII tried to shake things up by making Magic Junctioning the most important part of the game, but you could really end up screwed over if you didn't spend time collecting 100's of spells, or unlocked the right Junction abilities. Granted there were enemies that were still weaker than others, but the gap between enemies and player stat gains only widened as the level went higher. This was frustrating, to say the least.


It's not easy being green, especially in Cyrodil

One of the things I find most enjoyable about RPGs is that if I can't get past a certain enemy right now, or can't defeat a boss with my current power, I know that if I take enough time to train I can come back and swat them down like the fly they are. This is why I had such a problem trying to enjoy the next game I'm going to talk about, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. Now, the freedom in Oblivion is great and the game is beautiful, which makes exploration tons of fun. However, because of the open world, there was no way for Bethesda to really know where the player would go next. Rather than make enemies stronger in certain areas and thus creating a soft linear path, they chose to have enemies scale to the level of the player. I fully understand the reasoning for this decision, as when one of your major selling points is an open world, you don't want to create limitations by saying "you shouldn't be here yet". However, that doesn't mean I enjoy it and judging from how quickly it took for someone in the modding community to "fix" the level scaling, I imagine many others didn't either.


It slices! It dices! It makes Julienne fries!

The Good:(Sort of..)
Finally, we come to a game that I feel actually handles level scaling in a decent manner, Silverfall. Now, I wouldn't call Silverfall a great game, or really even a good game. Mediocre is probably the best way to describe it, what with a clunky interface, a camera system that could have been designed by Sonic Team, and a generally lackluster plot. Somehow they managed to put something amazing into the hulking 10 Gb behemoth though, and that is the level scaling system. For those of you who have neither played nor heard of Silverfall, it's your basic hack and slash Diablo clone, which is great for mindless fun. Part of what gets boring in these types of games though, is that if you stay in any one area too long, enemies don't put up a fight anymore, loot gets worse, and you're barely gaining any experience even though you need to keep fighting here to finish quests and move the storyline along. Diablo II avoided this for the most part by having excellent pacing and level design, but if you can't be Blizzard, Silverfall comes up with a workable solution.

Enemies in Silverfall seem to level along with the player at first. Leaving town in the beginning will have you meeting a collection of Level 1 monsters, but as your level raises, those monsters also seem to get stronger, even in places you've already been. What makes this system better than others that I've seen is the fact that areas seem to have an enemy level cap placed on them. Those same level 1 enemies never ended up higher than level 9 or 10, even when I had already reached level 16 myself. In this way, the general challenge of fighting was kept up while I had to complete quests in that area, but at the same time I was able to eventually come back and feel like the flame-sword-wielding badass that my character was. It struck a nice balance between two systems, and was probably my favorite part about the game. Well, that, and the physics engine. Why does a Diablo-like need a physics engine? Flying zombies, that's why.

In the end, with all the things wrong with it, Silverfall at least proves that Level scaling can be used to some effect in an RPG without making the player feel like they are never getting any stronger. Since most RPGs tend to get by on the strength of their story and not always on their gameplay mechanics, it doesn't immediately make sense why as a developer you would put in a system that may very well make it too difficult for some people to actually see the end of your story.
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You know I heard about the level scaleing when I got oblivion but never really saw it realized in-game. As you countinue to level certain enemys do seem to get weaker and I can kill certain enemy's easier. I just never really noticed the level scaling if it was there becuase everything seemed to work like normal.
zomg, why are there so many Good Idea Bad Idea c-blogs?!

http://www.destructoid.com/monthly-musings-good-idea-bad-idea-68329.phtml
Nice post. I always hated level scaling. You level up for a reason, so you can get better and bash the hell out of those weaker than you. So why should I be motivated to get my character better when Goblins are going to be just as tough as they were?
I actually like the idea of level scaling, insofar as I like my games to challenge me on some level, and the general RPG system of static enemy levels tends to bore me after a while. Of course, it's as you say and most times developers just don't get it and end up making terrible enemy levelling systems.

The best one I've ever seen was in Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song on the PS2. Enemies were the same the world over, and as you increased your quest rank, and thus came closer to the end of the game, the enemies you fought changed to match your rank. So you'd fight crummy plant monsters and slimes at Quest Rank 1, but by the time you had reached Quest Rank 42 you were fighting dragons and dinosaurs and other epic shit in random fights.

So enemy level wasn't tied to your level or relative power, but to how much of the game you had completed. You could get really strong quickly and pound weaker monsters, or ramp yourself up quest ranks really fast and give yourself a challenge.
@Gen: I had totally forgotten about Romancing SaGa's difficulty system, mainly because you were never actually rated in levels. I really loved that game though, partly because of the art style and music, but also because like you said, it paced itself along with how you went through the game instead of simply ramping up the difficulty arbitrarily because some number attached to your character went up by one. It made sense that being near the end of the game would make things more difficult, so it didn't really bother me.
Someone else actually liked Romancing SaGa? I don't feel so alone anymore!
I'm not big into RPGs, but this was definitely an interesting read.
I'm glad to see someone saying the same things I did about Oblivion. When I first started playing it I thought I was brilliant when I realized your magic level would increase by doing arbitrary things like healing over and over again, I thought I was so smart I held down the Cast button and went out with some friends. I came back later ready to stomp the game with my awesome magic powers (level 15 compared to my character level 2). And proceeded to get my ass kicked everywhere I went because I didn't have the armor, skill, spells, or general knowledge of the game to compete. Because of this I was never able to recover with this character and had to start a new one, but I forever had a bad taste in my mouth for the game.
I've never, ever enjoyed the idea of level scaling (though I never played Silverfall, admittedly).

As you said in your article, I really like the feeling of being completely overwhelmed by a new sort of monster or character, and having to improve myself to match up to his level of deadliness; if I can beat any monster in the game after getting past the title screen, it feels like the developer is cheating and simply making things too "easy" or "friendly" for me. I don't want friendly, dammit -- I want dangerous and immersive and frightening.
The level scaling in oblivion is a pain in the ass. In some areas it works out ok but in others its terribly broken. Pisses me off that at later levels you cant even walk down a road without a fuck off beast from the nether regions blocking your way and kicking the crap out of you, buggering your corpse as some kind of grim finale. Ridiculous. Also its annoying that other than that most things are the same difficulty to fight all the way through the game. How about a bit of variation Bethesda? I like to occasionally welp on peasant scum that have no chance of fighting back...not a pro who seems to have come across King Arthurs Excalibur at some point in the drole little life. Likewise I like those monsters that you think 'shit RUN AWAY!' and stay the hell away from. I just cant understand why said monsters would be strolling along an 'apparently' frequently used bypass.

Siverfall I agree with in some way (this article made me go play it again for a bit). The levelling system is very good in this....i just wish you could go places where there arent monsters....seems like theyve crammed some kind of monster into every nook and cranny they can find. However it is an enjoyable game - I love all the items too be found, and I might get round to buying the proper translated english version now that its down in price. Bad french translations are the price I paid for freeness.

This article is damn good sir, definetly worth a promotion to front page.
I didn't mind the level scaling in Oblivion. I eventually got good enough to kick the crap out of most things without doing any tedious level-grinding.

What DID bother me was that the LOOT scaled up.

Later in the game brigands sitting in a dank cave would be swinging glass swords and sporting expensive armor. That just never felt right to me. Just 3 months previous (with respect to the in-game calendar) I had been fighting thugs swinging common weapons. All of a sudden every low-life in the land can bankroll a top notch aresnal? Lame.
I have prolly completed as much of oblivion as the next person. I never modded the game either and even though it was a while back that I played it I never knew or noticed that Oblivion had level scaling. Did I just the honesty/noob barrier? Maybe. Maybe it was because I was an archer and the first thing I did was allign myself with all the guilds for good gear and exp.. i dont know.

Good right up though.
"One of the things I find most enjoyable about RPGs is that if I can't get past a certain enemy right now, or can't defeat a boss with my current power, I know that if I take enough time to train I can come back and swat them down like the fly they are."

I agree wholeheartedly with your article, but I think there is too much emphasis on grinding as the alternative to level scaling. That tends to provide a lot of fuel for those arguing in favor of level scaling.

Decent RPGs don't usually require any sort of grinding. The natural progression through the game is usually sufficient to beat the game without spending hours powergaming.

This is especially true for more linear RPGs, but even open-ended RPGs like the earlier Ultima games provided you an abundance of places to go and explore at lower levels but still be able to sufficiently handle higher level areas as long as you didn't do something that was obviously not right like getting a boat to Blackthorne's fortress or exploring the abyss with a wimpy character.

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