You know I heard about the level scaleing when I got oblivion but never really saw it realized in-game. As you countinue to level certain enemys do seem to get weaker and I can kill certain enemy's easier. I just never really noticed the level scaling if it was there becuase everything seemed to work like normal.
zomg, why are there so many Good Idea Bad Idea c-blogs?!
http://www.destructoid.com/monthly-musings-good-idea-bad-idea-68329.phtml
http://www.destructoid.com/monthly-musings-good-idea-bad-idea-68329.phtml
Nice post. I always hated level scaling. You level up for a reason, so you can get better and bash the hell out of those weaker than you. So why should I be motivated to get my character better when Goblins are going to be just as tough as they were?
I actually like the idea of level scaling, insofar as I like my games to challenge me on some level, and the general RPG system of static enemy levels tends to bore me after a while. Of course, it's as you say and most times developers just don't get it and end up making terrible enemy levelling systems.
The best one I've ever seen was in Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song on the PS2. Enemies were the same the world over, and as you increased your quest rank, and thus came closer to the end of the game, the enemies you fought changed to match your rank. So you'd fight crummy plant monsters and slimes at Quest Rank 1, but by the time you had reached Quest Rank 42 you were fighting dragons and dinosaurs and other epic shit in random fights.
So enemy level wasn't tied to your level or relative power, but to how much of the game you had completed. You could get really strong quickly and pound weaker monsters, or ramp yourself up quest ranks really fast and give yourself a challenge.
The best one I've ever seen was in Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song on the PS2. Enemies were the same the world over, and as you increased your quest rank, and thus came closer to the end of the game, the enemies you fought changed to match your rank. So you'd fight crummy plant monsters and slimes at Quest Rank 1, but by the time you had reached Quest Rank 42 you were fighting dragons and dinosaurs and other epic shit in random fights.
So enemy level wasn't tied to your level or relative power, but to how much of the game you had completed. You could get really strong quickly and pound weaker monsters, or ramp yourself up quest ranks really fast and give yourself a challenge.
@Gen: I had totally forgotten about Romancing SaGa's difficulty system, mainly because you were never actually rated in levels. I really loved that game though, partly because of the art style and music, but also because like you said, it paced itself along with how you went through the game instead of simply ramping up the difficulty arbitrarily because some number attached to your character went up by one. It made sense that being near the end of the game would make things more difficult, so it didn't really bother me.
I'm glad to see someone saying the same things I did about Oblivion. When I first started playing it I thought I was brilliant when I realized your magic level would increase by doing arbitrary things like healing over and over again, I thought I was so smart I held down the Cast button and went out with some friends. I came back later ready to stomp the game with my awesome magic powers (level 15 compared to my character level 2). And proceeded to get my ass kicked everywhere I went because I didn't have the armor, skill, spells, or general knowledge of the game to compete. Because of this I was never able to recover with this character and had to start a new one, but I forever had a bad taste in my mouth for the game.
I've never, ever enjoyed the idea of level scaling (though I never played Silverfall, admittedly).
As you said in your article, I really like the feeling of being completely overwhelmed by a new sort of monster or character, and having to improve myself to match up to his level of deadliness; if I can beat any monster in the game after getting past the title screen, it feels like the developer is cheating and simply making things too "easy" or "friendly" for me. I don't want friendly, dammit -- I want dangerous and immersive and frightening.
As you said in your article, I really like the feeling of being completely overwhelmed by a new sort of monster or character, and having to improve myself to match up to his level of deadliness; if I can beat any monster in the game after getting past the title screen, it feels like the developer is cheating and simply making things too "easy" or "friendly" for me. I don't want friendly, dammit -- I want dangerous and immersive and frightening.
The level scaling in oblivion is a pain in the ass. In some areas it works out ok but in others its terribly broken. Pisses me off that at later levels you cant even walk down a road without a fuck off beast from the nether regions blocking your way and kicking the crap out of you, buggering your corpse as some kind of grim finale. Ridiculous. Also its annoying that other than that most things are the same difficulty to fight all the way through the game. How about a bit of variation Bethesda? I like to occasionally welp on peasant scum that have no chance of fighting back...not a pro who seems to have come across King Arthurs Excalibur at some point in the drole little life. Likewise I like those monsters that you think 'shit RUN AWAY!' and stay the hell away from. I just cant understand why said monsters would be strolling along an 'apparently' frequently used bypass.
Siverfall I agree with in some way (this article made me go play it again for a bit). The levelling system is very good in this....i just wish you could go places where there arent monsters....seems like theyve crammed some kind of monster into every nook and cranny they can find. However it is an enjoyable game - I love all the items too be found, and I might get round to buying the proper translated english version now that its down in price. Bad french translations are the price I paid for freeness.
This article is damn good sir, definetly worth a promotion to front page.
Siverfall I agree with in some way (this article made me go play it again for a bit). The levelling system is very good in this....i just wish you could go places where there arent monsters....seems like theyve crammed some kind of monster into every nook and cranny they can find. However it is an enjoyable game - I love all the items too be found, and I might get round to buying the proper translated english version now that its down in price. Bad french translations are the price I paid for freeness.
This article is damn good sir, definetly worth a promotion to front page.
I didn't mind the level scaling in Oblivion. I eventually got good enough to kick the crap out of most things without doing any tedious level-grinding.
What DID bother me was that the LOOT scaled up.
Later in the game brigands sitting in a dank cave would be swinging glass swords and sporting expensive armor. That just never felt right to me. Just 3 months previous (with respect to the in-game calendar) I had been fighting thugs swinging common weapons. All of a sudden every low-life in the land can bankroll a top notch aresnal? Lame.
What DID bother me was that the LOOT scaled up.
Later in the game brigands sitting in a dank cave would be swinging glass swords and sporting expensive armor. That just never felt right to me. Just 3 months previous (with respect to the in-game calendar) I had been fighting thugs swinging common weapons. All of a sudden every low-life in the land can bankroll a top notch aresnal? Lame.
I have prolly completed as much of oblivion as the next person. I never modded the game either and even though it was a while back that I played it I never knew or noticed that Oblivion had level scaling. Did I just the honesty/noob barrier? Maybe. Maybe it was because I was an archer and the first thing I did was allign myself with all the guilds for good gear and exp.. i dont know.
Good right up though.
Good right up though.
"One of the things I find most enjoyable about RPGs is that if I can't get past a certain enemy right now, or can't defeat a boss with my current power, I know that if I take enough time to train I can come back and swat them down like the fly they are."
I agree wholeheartedly with your article, but I think there is too much emphasis on grinding as the alternative to level scaling. That tends to provide a lot of fuel for those arguing in favor of level scaling.
Decent RPGs don't usually require any sort of grinding. The natural progression through the game is usually sufficient to beat the game without spending hours powergaming.
This is especially true for more linear RPGs, but even open-ended RPGs like the earlier Ultima games provided you an abundance of places to go and explore at lower levels but still be able to sufficiently handle higher level areas as long as you didn't do something that was obviously not right like getting a boat to Blackthorne's fortress or exploring the abyss with a wimpy character.
I agree wholeheartedly with your article, but I think there is too much emphasis on grinding as the alternative to level scaling. That tends to provide a lot of fuel for those arguing in favor of level scaling.
Decent RPGs don't usually require any sort of grinding. The natural progression through the game is usually sufficient to beat the game without spending hours powergaming.
This is especially true for more linear RPGs, but even open-ended RPGs like the earlier Ultima games provided you an abundance of places to go and explore at lower levels but still be able to sufficiently handle higher level areas as long as you didn't do something that was obviously not right like getting a boat to Blackthorne's fortress or exploring the abyss with a wimpy character.

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