The Disclaimer
Warning!!! This is long, so come at it in groups of three, or take a time-out once in a while.
That’s what (s)he said. Now, onward!
The Long, Drawn Out Intro
Everyone’s got their “thing” when it comes to video games, or any other form of entertainment, or really anything in life; there’s always that something that draws people to those specific things that interest them. For some gamers it could be story; when they grab that controller they are envisioning themselves picking up a novel, or it could be crisp, intuitive controls that really make them feel as though they have some say in the shaping and changing of a world, and their avatar reacts as the instruction manual (or in-game controller-config loading screen, who really reads manuals any more?) promises.
Apparently, for the “casual gamer”, gimmicks sell. My roommate plays for pop-culture “references and quotes”, Simpson’s Hit & Run and Path of Neo are the only two games he owns. I know that for some individuals graphics make the game, and may whatever god you worship have mercy on your soul for that, because you give strength to developers that embrace a “graphics over gameplay”
Creed. (See what I did there?)
For me, that “thing” is character. Think fantasy settings are lame? Want me to engage in endless acts of whacking (in the organized crime sense), capping, and grenade-lobbing in your latest stunt-jumping, balls-to-the-wall drunk driving simulator? You had better find a way to make your military trained immigrant as relatable as a guy with over a thousand years under his belt, and thus has had literally every life experience there could possibly be. If you refuse to introduce me to an interesting cast of characters that I might subsequently ponder on rather than focus on exam review, I refuse to play your game.
I would literally drag through all 14 Dizzy games if I thought that considering all twenty characters would occupy more of my time than the ten shots I would have downed before deciding in a drunken stupor to concern myself with a gap-jumping puzzle-solving eggman. But I digress, as the real point of the last four paragraphs is to open for why I love the Suikoden series. So let’s get to it.
Love it.
For those of you who don’t know and are too lazy to shoot over to Wikipedia and do the research, the Suikoden games are JRPGs that focus on a typically silent protagonist attempting to tip the scales in a political struggle, and subsequently saving the world from the demon-in-disguise that happened to be the head of the opposing political faction. Now, I know what you’re thinking, Shade, that story’s a little run-of-the-mill, and a silent protagonist aren’t exactly terribly interesting as far as characters go. And you’re exactly right.
What the Suikoden games also focus on, however, is the recruitment of 108 heroes, the Stars of Destiny, a concept that is borrowed from and loosely based on the Chinese classic Shui Hu Zhuan. It is finding and interacting with these characters that rockets my love for Suikoden high above many JRPGs, and also what adds to the replayability of the series, as usually around 70-80 are playable in combat. Oftentimes depending on the characters you have in your party or recruited at your castle will trigger other events further along in the game, or allow the recruitment of other characters.
I will never forget accidentally stumbling upon the black knight Pesmerga in the Cave of the Wind in Suikoden II. He always denied joining me, again and again (I went back quite often), until finally when I had recruited enough people, he accepted, and rocked my virtual world. Suikoden is filled with memories like this for me, as I would talk to anyone that had a face appear next to the dialogue box (because normal townsfolk all say the same thing, and either don’t have faces or hide them very, very well) over and over again until they joined me.
Another thing that I really enjoy about the Suikoden series is the idea of building up a “home base” of sorts. In each entry of the series you receive (typically by clearing it of monsters) a castle that serves as a headquarters for your group of mercenaries, and as you recruit characters your castle grows (and becomes more cleanly) to accommodate your army’s size. Many of these characters, around 20, will open shops or provide mini-games that you can access at your castle, many of which will also upgrade along with your castle. One of the most important of these mini-games, and one that actually had some relevance to the main gameplay, was the detective character who would actually research characters for the protagonist. When paid, the detective would provide tips for recruiting characters as well as some background information on characters that had already joined the player’s army. Another favorite mini-game from Suikoden II, and one that must be mentioned, is the cooking mini-game, in which you help Hai Yo defeat various nefarious chefs that are after his secret recipe.
The inclusion of large-scale strategic battles and duels also add to my love of the Suikoden series. The strategy battles are all fought in the name of advancing the narrative, while the duels may either serve that purpose or the purpose of recruiting some character that, in classic RPG fashion, will only join you after you’ve beaten the living hell out of him/her. While the duels are like Rock Paper Scissors with your opponent honestly telling you which one they’re about to choose, they are still fun and offer something that differs from the norm. The strategy battles offer a certain amount of customization in that you choose which characters to group in to the units you control. Most of the characters have special abilities (active and passive) to aid them in these strategic battles, so it adds a whole other layer to an already great JRPG experience.
Change it.
Now that I have inundated you readers (if you haven’t yet left the page) with an intro and the reasons why I love Suikoden, we get to the fun part. Trashing my favorite series.
The first thing that I will say is that while these suggestions are spawned from my want for a better Suikoden, they could be applied generally to the entire genre of JRPGs, which I feel just all around need a nice reboot for this generation of consoles. Don’t get me wrong, I loved Lost Odyssey but plenty of what could be done to revamp the Suikoden series could also work to improve it.
Starting with combat, which is what a lot of critics of classic RPGs say they take issue with, they have trouble being drawn in to a game that features a turn-based system. While I don’t agree with that standpoint because I’ve always loved turn-based RPGs, I do feel that eventually, in order to grow and succeed, the genre will have to evolve beyond turn-based combat. In the Suikoden series if you choose to attack different enemies with several characters and they would all act around the same time in the battle order, they would all leap across the gap and attack at the same time, then return to their original formation. I like this, as it breaks the mold of the typical attack-return method of turn-based combat, but I think it can be taken a step further, to make it seem more “real” and active.
I think the major criticism for this type of attack-return system is that the battlefield never seems to evolve, after every turn it seems to return back to how it began, almost as if nothing happened. In Suikoden III this is remedied by your characters occupying the space within which they ended their attack, much like in tactical RPGs, but immediately afterwards, in Suikoden IV, this was done away with. Also, in Suikoden III although the battlefield evolves there is still the sense that the two opposing sides are engaging each other at two different times, rather than at once as it would naturally occur. If a KOTOR system were utilized, where actions are queued during pauses and then occur in order, so that the action seems more seamless as opposed to “I slash you, you slash me”. Another major aspect of combat that I think the more recent Suikodens lack that Suikoden III capitalized a bit on is that of character customization. In Suikoden III you could level up skills for your characters that would make them better in combat and gave you added control outside of simply attaching runes (which is the extent of the customization throughout most of the series). If Konami looked at the genre as a whole they would see that customization is what makes many great games great; people like to control how their characters act in combat, what types of weapons and abilities they use, otherwise there would be no market for interactivity and the video game wouldn’t exist. What kept me interested in between Lost Odyssey’s great story segments was the ability to dictate how my immortals grew and learned skills, and the extent of that customization, in relation to a lot of titles (mainly on the PC, like Fallout, Baldur’s Gate, etc.) is really pretty miniscule.
Also, although the plethora of characters is what keeps me so interested in the Suikoden series, I could use a little bit more actual development in those characters. It’s understandable that with 108 characters some of them will sink in to the background, but what I’m looking for is some progression, not just one line of dialogue that introduces me to their past. It doesn’t even need to be part of the main quest, for those that are worried about taking all of their time to play through a game that delves in to the intricacies of so many individual characters, they could simply have a group of sidequests, or even just one or two, for each character.
And speaking of sidequests, what ever happened to those in the typical RPG? Lost Odyssey had them, but they ended up being little more than memories, and the extent of which they unlocked was hints to find treasure, but those weren’t really quests, they were simply “go there, and pick up the treasure”. In Suikoden, the extent of the sidequests are finding all of the characters, and while this does amount to a decent amount of time outside of the main storyline, and it is rewarding to get a new character, I feel like there have to be more compelling quests, and non-required areas to explore. Mass Effect is one of the few current examples I can think of that had extra content that seemed enough to match the greatness of the actual game. Final Fantasy is another series that I feel has always delivered on the amount of optional material, and there has always been plenty to do throughout the entirety of that series, rather than strictly in the endgame. Suikoden as a series could benefit from emulating what Square does, and has done, using even Final Fantasy V as an example. One of my favorites of the series, the best parts of that game for me were defeating side bosses for the tablets to unlock the ancient weapons, as well as fighting Gogo (especially after already having beaten FFVI) to unlock the Mime class. Suikoden could benefit well from these types of weapon quests, to offset the monotony of sharpening weapons for everyone, as well as character tie-ins, as there are a plethora of them at their disposal.
Lastly, if you’re going to include something, go all out. What I’m referring to are the strategy battles and duels, as while they are a great diversion, and fantastic additions for a PSOne game, we are well in to the next generation Konami, it’s time to upgrade or shut down. Gamers don’t have room for more of the same, so let’s get these Rock Paper Scissors matches a little more sophisticated, as well as a little more streamlined. I know God of War and many predecessors have pretty much smashed button sequences in to the ground, but there has to be some answer other than RPS. Improve or remove. And that goes for the full-scale battles as well. It just feels as if there could be a little more effort put forth to make them seem less “tacked-on” and more an actual, viable aspect of improving the series, rather than furthering the narrative and taking up valuable time that loses a lot of its novelty and fun by the time you get to the really important battles.
If Konami just went all-out on a Suikoden VI, and really accomplished something ground-breaking in terms of switching up the genre, they could breathe life in to RPGs on the newer consoles, and thus breathe life in to me, because it’s been a while since I’ve had an RPG to fill the void in my soul. Sorry for the extreme length, I hope you enjoyed it.
kool :)
long but good fuckin read man. I've heard of these games but didnt even know they were rpgs. I'm really going to look into these.
FRONTPAGE!
also, which would you suggest? are the stories related?
This wasn't that long. Great post.
Anyway, yeah the reason I haven't gotten into JRPG's or even RPG's is because I'm just not a fan a turn based games.
Although at a time I did enjoy Pokemon Blue; mostly because I got to boss my pokemon around.
I, like you, hold this series very dear to my heart.
I, unlike you, do not want it to change. I just want another one to be made, no matter the cost.
I thought Suikoden 5 took a great step forward in making the game better. Multiple endings, actual voice-acting, and characters worth notably caring about. Maybe it just seemed so wonderful because I had played S4 before it and that game is a godawful piece of shit.
I think the big problem Konami has with this series is that they have chosen to incorporate lots of neat things over the course of the series, but never truly stay the course for those particular implementations that are successful. S2 had several characters with neat backstory to follow for sidequests and S3 had the good modifications to combat you spoke of. S5 has the voice acting, and Skies Of Arcadia has the good strategy fight -- err...I mean, disregard that.
Since the Suikoden series does have some compelling storylines at times (I think the twist in 3 was one of the greatest moments in gaming history, personally...and the explanation via the extra scenario was so worth it) and continues to weave an overarcing story, I think with just some minor willingness to take what works and roll with it rather than constantly switching around ideas, they could make games even better than they have been thus far.
That or they could just pretend S4 and STactics never existed. Eff those games.
Word on the S4, and basically everything else Negfactor.
And I also agree with you Howard, but this is a best-case scenario i'm talking.
Inchworm, play 1,2,and 3 if you get a chance, but if you're looking for just one to play, I would recommend 2, but I think that may be the rarest by now, as it's widely critically considered the best.
It sounds like you need to play Persona 3.
A large portion of the game is dedicated to making 'social bonds' in order to strengthen your abilities. You meet a lot of different characters, make friends with them (or in some cases, more than just friends) and discover bit by bit their personality and motives.
Of course, the main characters are your typical JRPG stock personalities (the cocky guy, the silent badass, the pretty girl, the silent protagonist, etc etc) but the game is well made when it comes to story progression and character interaction.
Yea, def. Deiga, I actually started playing Persona 3 then I got caught up with other things when my X360 came back from RROD Hell. It's a pretty amazing game but I could've used a change of environment every once in a while, eventually when I get Fes I'll play through it in entirety.
awesome write up. I still haven't really played Suikoden III only cause the tvs I played them on back then suckeed (couldn't see half the shit in the game.)
I personally would love to see Suikoden evolve. as much praise as I and II get. But I really can't say so much on it as I haven't even got so far in III.
@Shin Oni -- I gotta say, even though I loved S3, it was slow as hell playing through all the first three chapters of each scenario to get to the meat of the story. But once you hit Chapter 4, it was worth it. Every hour was worth it for finding out all about the Masked Bishop. Make sure you get all 108 characters. For doing so, you get an extra scenario (almost an hour long) after you beat the game that lets you see the Masked Bishop's side of the story. If you've played 1 and 2, playing the last two chapters of S3 is a jawdropper.
This was a good write up and I love the Suikoden series but I'm afraid that I don't really share your opinions.
The suikoden games, like the Dragon Quest series are all about staying traditional, well Suikoden much less than DQ but that means they are turn based, it wouldn't be Suikoden if it wasn't. A KOTOR system is pretty difficult to manage when you control more than one character and SquareEnix tried something like that with Final Fantasy XII and it's divided a lot of fans. Also the battle system in 3 where the characters occupy different spaces on the battlefield is rubbish because they don't let you choose where they move to and you can't move them out of the way! What good is using a range attack or support spell when you can't control who gets hit or is affected by it? That and sometimes characters ignore your commands and do something completely different really used to annoy me but I guess these are just poor design choices. Although Konami have been mixing up the battles in every game, some better some worse but I really liked the formations in Suikoden 5.
As for the character customization but correct me if I'm wrong but the equipable skills they introduced in suikoden 3 are present in Suikoden 4 and 5 as well. I really like the rune system they have since because you can only equip 3 runes that all share a finite number of spell casts (usually a small number as well) there's a lot more strategy involved in assigning and using runes. If you want a character to use a particular weapon then in Suikoden you just pick a character that uses that particular weapon rather than equip one on them yourself. If you could equip any weapon then what's the point in using any of the other characters as you will just give everyone the best weapons anyway. The weapons they are assigned are a part of their character and if you can change it then everyone just becomes a blank slate.
You can't expect every character to be given a deep story with that many available. That being said most of them have at least a short story to introduce themselves. Futch and Clive from Suikoden 2 both had pretty deep back stories though.
Getting all the 108 stars of destiny is more sidequest than the majority of any RPG. Mass Effects side quests simply boiled down to go here and take care of these guys who are doing wrong. Not to mention in suikoden games there are other side quests such as getting the best armor and the golden hammer to get the sharpest weapons and the cooking quest in no.2 (that so needs to come back!!!)
I really like the one on one battles because it's really satisfying figuring out what type of attack your opponent is going to use and counter it, even if it's a glorified plot point. You got to give credit to Konami for trying something different with the large scale battles as they see the biggest changes in each game. I think most of the time they are pretty well done.
Whoa sorry for the long rant.... um my bad!
One thing I'd like to add is that I don't think the Suikoden series is there to break new ground. I think Konami do a good job most of the time to keep the series fresh. Personally I'd like to see more Suikoden games that are more linked story wise kinda like 1, 2 and 3 were but maybe not as loosely.
Still I'm just glad to have a decent RPG that involves people and war and not some evil dude that's simply trying to destroy the world and you have to go kick his arse. :-D
The skills were in 5 but on a smaller scale, which didn't quite make sense to me as they seemed to be down-grading from 3, and I don't think they were in 4, according to Wiki, but I've never played it because I did a little research and it just looked terrible. I do agree with you on the battles in Suikoden V, but I think "staying traditional" is not quite the way to go with the amount of potential new consoles possess.
Also, apologies if my original write-up was unclear, but I don't Konami to get rid of every person specializing in their weapon, I'd just like more options for each character outside of the typical Suikoden "Sharpen this, get more power" formula. At least have their weapon change appearance when it supposedly becomes all-powerful from the Golden Hammer.
And I agree that collecting the Stars is a good amount of extra content, but it hardly amounts to more than simply going back to explore other areas you've already been. The one it stands now, there is plenty of added questing with character recruitment, but it's still extremely linear, you hardly ever explore any side areas, or optional areas. Whereas in Mass Effect you are exploring a plethora of optional places (though many of them are similar scenarios).
I also totally agree on Futch and Clive. The scene with Elza at Muse in Suikoden 2 is so badass, and it was a very small scene, but it gave me a little bit more insight in to Clive's character. Shouldn't they be able to offer similar events for at least a majority of the characters, rather than a few.
And again, one on one and strategy battles, they are fantastic. But it's been the same thing since 1, with only minor adjustments (except for 3, which I feel was a major negative adjustment) and it's my humble opinion that it's time for a change.
Yeah to be honest I never played 4 either.... I tried the beginning and well yeah let's pretend it doesn't exist :-P
You do make some really good points though. Change in weapon appearance would be great but personally the other things I love about the suikoden series are the things that I don't want changed so it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree :-)
I'll be looking at the Final Fantasy games for big changes but I really hope Konami are working on Suikoden 6...
zZzZz...huh?! What?! Oh, sorry. What were you saying again? :P
@Shade and Anus: You're both lucky bastards. I played S4 and Suikoden Tactics to get the full storyline from both and the only pleasant experience I can pull from both games is that there were a few moments of neat storyline (including the reappearance of TED!) and a potential gateway to another Suikoden story altogether (read as: a future Suikoden actually focusing on Ted).
Other than that, S4 (where that storyline was) and Tactics (a terrible paper-scissors-rock-meets-FFT-clone) were utter nonsense. BATTLES EVERY FIFTEEN SECONDS WHEN SAILING, WHILE REAL TIME SAILING TAKES FIVE MINUTES TO GET FROM ONE ISLAND TO ANOTHER. Eff you, game. I'm being generous with that fifteen seconds too. More like four.
Those are the exact reasons I didn't play it, and the one reason I was tempted, NegFactor. As for SuikoTactics, I would probably rather kill myself, haha, nothing really stands to Tactics Ogre and FFT.
And sorry for the sleep-inducing writing Wexx, I was using "Mimic Daravon".
And apparently Suikoden II is pretty rare nowadays, which is funny because throughout middle school I bought and sold (and once crushed) it like 4 times... Sucks for those peeps who have never played it.