Before I start, I gotta make sure I say that I absolutely adored the rest of the game, and thought it was all near perfect, save the end game. That, and that the images are all from
this amazing mashup and should hopefully counteract the fail that is the rest of this blog >.<
My problems started with Adachi. I LOVED the idea of him as the killer all along. The twists with Namatame were brilliant, and everything fit together so perfectly, so when I thought about it, it made so perfect sense. There were enough clues you could look back at and make it all plausible. Confronting him was great, and I was so tense and excited to hear the master criminals' evil monologue explaining his dastardly plan, his motive and reason for creating the games main conflict were basically "Yeah, I did it for the lulz," which work wonderfully for characters like Kefka and Porky, but only when there backstories, and thus the reason for their immature nihilism are properly explained. With Adachi were just presented with a one dimensional schmuck whose potentially fascinating backstory is never even hinted at. Hell, Persona 3's Strega had their entire history summed up in some pre- and post- fight dialogue, and it not only managed to be satisfying, but utterly horrifying and tragic as well. (It's hard to top Revolver Jesuselot and Bomberman though ;))
After he's defeated though, things start to get interesting, as the true (well for now) mastermind is revealed. Excited, I wrung my hands in anticipation over what horrible do-badder this could be. Adachi may have been flat, but this newcomer would surely prove a fascinating and sufficiently complex villain!
...
Or it could just be a Rainbow Deathstar... That works too...
Jokes aside, his design did grow on me as the fight went on, and I ended up rather digging it. The problem was that Amigo-Senpai (or at least that's how my phonetically deficient mind read it ;)) turned out to be nothing more then a decidedly less awesome rip off of Persona 3's Nyx. A godly being misinterprets a flaw present in humanity as a whole as a universal desire for life to be extinguished (in the literal sense for Nyx and in the sense of Amigo’s (I can't help but imagine him chilling with Samba de Amigo’s monkey star now XD) plan for a shadow world) only to be trounced by our beloved heroes(and I don't mean that in any sarcastic way whatsoever, I genuinely adore both 3 and 4's cast in ways that almost no other game characters can garner :3) who throw a wench in their belief through there sheer determination and heart, which the villain now begrudgingly respects. It worked perfectly in 3, but doing it over again just seemed so stale, and it wasn't even that good of a ripoff. Nyx is introduced far earlier, and while there are certainly twists when you meet her face to "face", she and her basic motives are explained sufficiently early enough so that you have enough time to lament the upcoming doom, and prepare yourself to do the impossible and pierce the heavens with your drill, because I believe in you who believes in me, and me who believes in myself! ... *ahem* My apologies, that just slipped in there >.< Back on topic, but Amigo didn't do that at all, he just appears in the 11th hour to explain the secret master plan behind everything, in a frankly unsatisfying and disappointing way, There was no build up and it came out of nowhere, which might have worked had the conclusion been a wholly new one, but since it wasn't even that I just had to sigh and shake my head in it's direction.
With the good ending out of the way (I can't say I liked the whole "good" and "gooder" ending system, but that's a whole different rant,) there was the d'aww worthy chats with each of the s-links (which is completely exempt from scorn and was just as moving as 3's :3) and then the awesome "It's not over yet!" moment, with such a great reveal (the gas station clerk! It's right at the point of being "ok, that's just absurd," but not quite there and as such, incredibly epic) Who the hell is Izanami and why does she look so much like Magus from Chrono Trigger? Who cares! At last a satisfying explanation of all the shenanigans! The puppet master had been unveiled and it was time to get some answers! Only, they were the exact same ones as Amigo’s. And P4 just took even more from it's predecessor, the main character fuses an ultimate Persona from the power granted by his s-link bonds, that is finally capable of defeating the unstoppable being, and while it was still a great moment, it was undoubtedly tainted by the fact that it's exactly what Minato did to the t. (Although thankfully with out sacrificing his life T_T)
As promising as she looked, Izanami was just another Nyx wanabee, which doesn't work firstly on the merit of being unoriginal, but doubly so when she's introduced at the last possible hour, with the player expected to form some kind of emotional response far to soon. The more I think about it, the more bummed I get. It really was a blatant redoing of 3, which is really rather tragic, since they were both such different games, and fantastic because of it, but seeing 4 get a cookie cutter mold ending slapped on just made me sad. Theirs a fine line between a recurring theme and unoriginality, and sadly, I felt like the final act of 4 isn't even close to the middle. Which I feel horrible saying, as I still adore the game and think on the whole it's utterly fantastic. The rest of the ending with the remade TV World and the main characters departure were all great, but I can't help but rage over what comes before. As much as I want Persona 5 to be made, I can't help but fear a similar fate will befall it. On the plus side though, if it ever happens It'll give them a chance to redeem themselves, and prove once again that Atlus can do no wrong ^__^
And slightly unrelated note:
^that is awesome :O Enjoy!
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I completely agree about the final boss in this game (whose name is Izanami, I think you meant... :P). Overall, I actually liked the storyline of 3 much better, while 4 was excellent for the gameplay.
I feel the same way, though --- Izanami was basically just Nyx who spoke.
The problem with Persona 4's ending?
A wizard did it.
It's a mystery story (or, it tries really hard to be one) but you can't solve it yourself. So when they need to tie up loose ends? "Oh, some greater being decided to because videogames".
That, and the game tried to force you away from the true ending. I'm willing to bet a lot of people instinctively went back home on the final day. Bad design all around.
@Phoenix
Exactly! At least Adachi made sense on retrospective, and you felt like you could have solved it. The more I think about him the sadder I get, cause he really had the potential to be such an awesome villain :(
And yeah, at least once you get to the elevator you can see that it's trying to coyly trick you, but I don't know how I would have figured out to go there with out prior warning.
Personally, I liked how Persona 4's ending didn't really try to explain Izanami. This really enforced a link between the story of Persona 4 and the Japanese Creation myth of which these characters (Izanami and Izanagi,the main character's persona) originate from. Since in the Japanese myth, Izanagi is dead by this curren era(I'm pretty sure I'm not mistaken here), I see that whole, "fusing the ultimate persona", thing to be more of an invoking of the spirit of the fallen god to deal with some of his unsettled business.
I agree with this blog and-- wait what I am talking about, I still haven't played Persona and avoided all the spoilers.
I'll try to remember checking this back when I complete both okay, babe?
First off, SWP you are my RPG soul-mate! I just beat Persona 4 literally two days ago. I have to say that it did feel just a bit stale towards the end of the game. I was satisfied with Adachi being the killer and amigo being behind it all (Adachi creating that universe would have been to far fetched). Amigo did seem a bit one dimensional and poorly explained, a few days of a lead up would have been nice, but throwing in Izanami on top of amigo felt like too much. It's never even explained if Izanami created amigo or something. Izanami suffers like amigo from not enough build up, facing Nyx I felt like I had been preparing forever to finally take her on. I'm hopeful the p5 will reinvent some plot points and have a more satisfying ending. I have to say one of my biggest complaints however was it skipping three months, I loved the characters so much I could have endured three months of just doing S.links :P
@EternalPlayer
Hehe, we should have guessed that from Mother 4 though ;3 Yeah, I doubt I would have felt this strongly if like the whole month of January so was spent prepping for some final battle and explaining Amigo (although might have been have pushed the whole 3 ripoff even farther) I think the only explanation we got was Izanami was at one point "Yeah Amigo was some part of me I created a while back, moving on" :P And I know exactly what you mean about the three months :( Despite the weaker plot, what makes me love 4 as much as 3 is the absolutely fantastic cast. I maxed 'em all the first few days of December, but kept spending the day with them and postponing my showdown with Adachi so that I could spend more time with them all ;3
@Paldi
And I totally dig that part of it, but Persona 3 had that mythological backstory too, what with Thantos and Nyx, but it fleshed out the in game namesakes as well as alluding to there "real" counterparts, not just using the later as a crutch for poor storytelling.
Ack, Mother 3 not 4! My subconscious desires are forcing there way through it seems XD Also I realized I used "spend" and "day" way to many times in the same paragraph >.<
That might be because those myths referred to in Persona 4 are local, and most likely well known, to the primary audience(Japanses gamers). This might have been an oversight when localizing it to other areas that may have been less familliar with the myths.
Maybe I'm fine with it only because I had just recently learned about some of the Japanese myths before picking up Persona 4, so it didn't take much for me to make the jump from the in game to the myth(I mean, the most the myth was talked about in game was that one less than 5 minute scene at school where the teacher bearly goes over the end of the myth if im not mistaken). I think I can understand where you are coming from in respect to that complaint. I felt their in-game namesakes were accurate enough to the myths (Izanami wanting to screw with humanity, Izanagi being the beacon of hope, ect) that the gamemakers didn't really need to flesh them out with anything other than "they are as they were in the stories". Of course, as previously stated, that still relies on prior knowlege of the myths which I can agree the explanation/summary of the myths was rather lacking in the game.
Side Note: I wish Izanagi/Izanagi no Okami was a summonable Demon in a Devil Summoner game. I would love to see him on the field doing more than 3 second pop-ins for special attacks.
I see what you mean, but it seems to me, and this may just be my unfamiliarity with the myths, that their too similar to the "real" stories about them. Nyx and Thantos were wholly unique characters who could function just as well by any other name. Their mythological roots add an interesting perspective for the astute player, but you can still comprehend the characters and there motives just as well with out it, because they aren't just Nyx and Thantos from Greek mythology in a game, their original characters who share those names as a erudite thematic reference. In 4 it just seemed like from what you explained, it's just Izanami from Japanese lore, transplanted into the game at the last possible minute, with no real motivation behind her actions and character other then that that's how she is in the stories. It just feels grafted on almost, which is a bad thing for any character, but especially so for a final boss.
I never really thought about it that way, SWPM. I still love the ending from Persona 4 though :)
I liked Adachi as the killer, nice and tidy. . . everything after that revalation and battle was an anti-climax.
What the hell? Is that some kind of Persona 3 anime down there, or is it some fan-made thing?
And to think I went nearly six hours without replying to a Persona-related post.
While the similarities between P3 and P4's endings are obvious, I think that both endings came naturally, and that P4 can't really be faulted for being unoriginal.
As is clear, both P3 and P4 are about the search for identity. Both games follow that path, and their characters use the strength derived from finding that identity to defeat an antagonist who views humanity's true identity as something demanding extermination. SWPM said as much in summary.
This is actually rather typical of JRPG plots. However, what makes the Persona games great and unique lies in the way they bring the plot about. They're essentially proof that JRPGs are almost always more than the sum of their component parts.
But I digress. P3 and P4's primary difference in storytelling is in the treatment of its cast. When you look at it, P3's cast and plot service the player almost exclusively. The protagonist is a literal blank slate, with no past and identity. The self-determination comes from those around him, and in the end, the player faces his final challenge alone, drawing strength from his companions, but ultimately separate from them. His self-sacrifice is also permanent, and his example is meant to inspire the world to cling to hope rather than succumb to a predefined end (Nyx)
By contrast, P4's protagonist is not ostensibly a blank slate. There are reasons why the main character moves to Inaba, and his departure is inevitable. And rather than overcoming his challenges through the support of his friends, he enables his friends to help themselves, who in turn reciprocate in the final encounter.
P4's primary theme is the search for truth, one's true self. While this is also true of P3, the difference is in that greater emphasis on truth, in that everyone's true selves hide behind a shadow. Their self-determination comes from acknowledging and accepting their flaws. P3 tended to have the player help his friends overcome their flaws rather than realize them.
Furthermore, the mystery angle is also underlined by that emphasis on unacknowledged truth. Ame-no-Sagiri (the disco ball) covers the world in fog, a fog that, in its opinion, allows people to express and accept their true shadow selves. But, as is proven by the player and his companion, a shadow is an incomplete truth, just half of the equation, the not-so-true ending.
Izanami and the true ending also underline this. Izanami empowered the player, Namatame and Adachi as three aspects of what she deemed was humanity's "true" shadow self. As she stated, Adachi represented emptiness, and Namatame represented despair. As always, the player represented hope, a wild card that would not settle for half-truths.
The tie-in to the creation myth and the Izanami-Izanagi relationship is also significant. As was covered in the game, the grudge between the two started when Izanagi was horrified to see Izanami's "true" form after her death. He ran from the cave and blocked off the entrance. In P4 it serves as a metaphor for that refusal to acknowledge complete truth. Izanagi refused to accept his wife's new, gross form, and blocked himself off from seeing it. In turn Izanami was left stuck in the darkness, nothing to do but assume that the "truth" of the matter was that people suck and are jerks and need to acknowledge that and become shadows, as was proper. And so began that whole animosity, two halves of creation refusing to acknowledge each other.
That's where the divergence is, even if they ended in the same way, with the antagonist accepting that despair and apathy was NOT the only way the world could be. Whereas the characters of P3 overcame a challenge (i.e. halting the inevitable), the characters of P4 effected a reconciliation of sorts, kinda forcing Izanami to acknowledge the "complete" truth. That's why P3's final move was "The Great Seal", and P4's was "Myriad Truths".
The depth to which the theme tied into the creation myth operated on the assumption that the player knew about the myth. I can't suppose I can blame Atlus completely. JRPGs tend to be targeted at Japanese players, after all. But there was certainly a need for more exposition on our part. And even then the true ending was too rushed to really emphasize the "reconciliation/unfinished business" theme. I've noticed a lot of little fan-fictions that push that angle, with Izanami being shown to "make up" with Izanagi right after the final battle (I'd certainly like to see the hot make-up sex after that thousand-year-long marital dispute).
SWPM is right in that P3 is in a way more original, since it doesn't rely on a mythical tie-in to work as effectively as it did. After all, Nyx and Thanatos are hardly considered as world-enders in Greek myth. The legends are used to spice up an arguably generic story, with the core gameplay keeping the telling of it fresh.
To end this overlong comment and get some sleep, I think that what's made P3 and P4 different and unique was not their core plots, but in the external details, the tweaks, gameplay mechanics and tie-ins that worked together to tell the same story in a new way.
Short answer = I don't think P4's ending is a blatant copycat, but I do acknowledge that it could have been put together better for us ignorant gaijin. Also P4
As a reward for reading this, and to undermine any possible counterargument, Izanami cheesecake.
:O While I'm still kind of disappointed with it, I definitely appreciate a LOT more, so thank you for that Unang :3 Yeah, they even had that awesome cultural explanation part of the manual that they easily could have stuck a summary of the creation myth in. That was the first place i went when Izanami showed up but was sad to find nothing on her. And while I still feel the endings were a bit to samey, I can clearly see the differences, especially in the thematic sense, which makes it a hell of a lot more satisfying. Your totally right now that I reflect, 3's party only got new personas when they overcame some character flaw or emotional baggage while 4's were accepting truths that they were suppressing, and I'm glad to see that that carries over into the ending far more then I thought.
I wish I could compose a more elegant response, but since I agree with so much of what you say, all I can really add is "ahhh, that makes sense now" Thank you for the awesome clarification!
Also @Pedro, it's Persona 3/Gurren Lagann fanart. There is a P3/4 manga you can read though!
Grrr.... I wish I could still play this game.
Wow. Unangbangkay pretty much summed up what I wanted to say. XD
In school they teach you about Izanagi and Izanami twice...