Quantcast
Destructoid - ReclusiveSpirit's Community Blog




About Me
Name

Todd

Games I play

FPS are my favorites, followed by
Third-person action/adventure,
with a dash of Roleplaying.

Recent Favorite Games

Batman: Arkham Asylum
Bioshock
Call of Duty 4
Castlevania: Lords of Shadow
Deadspace
Doom 3
Fallout 3
Gears of War
Gears of War 2
God of War II
God of War III
Half-Life 2
inFamous
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Metal Gear Solid 4
Red Dead Redemption
Resident Evil 4
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves

Currently playing

Dragon Age II

Email

reclusivespirit@yahoo.com

Rig Pic #1


Rig Pic #2


Rig Pic #3


ps3 gamertag















Gamer Profile
3DS friend code:
Steam:
Battle:
PSN: ReclusiveSpirit
Mii:
Gamertag: ReclusiveSpirit
Following (1)
RonBurgandy2010
John Carmack Unplugged: Xbox 360 > PS3
ReclusiveSpirit | 12:54 PM on 08.04.2008 49 comments




The PS3 vs. the Xbox 360. When it comes to debating the merits of one system against the
other, I can easily hold my own against anyone I know. Whether it's the boys at work, or
hanging out with friends, my game is as good as anybody's.

But it's not as good as John Carmack's game. It's not even in the same league. I mean, come on, this is a guy who once taught himself aerospace engineering. And now he's the lead engineer of his own aerospace company, Armadillo Aerospace. While I, on the other hand, recently taught myself how to cook the perfect rice. Hey, it's not as easy as it sounds!

Let's move on, shall we? 1UP's Shawn Elliott recently sat down with the man himself at QuakeCon 2008. In less than 30 seconds into the interview, "Mr. Doom" started spreading the love, "...the only thing Sony has going for them over the 360, is the data storage on the blu-ray..." And about a minute and a half later, just in case we didn't quite hear him correctly the first time, he said, "...the only real advantage that the PS3 has over the 360, from our point of view, is the extra space." Okay, I think I got it. The PS3 and it's blu-ray win, but only by default.



Shawn then asks him, "I might have misinterpreted you last night in your keynote, but it seemed to be that you said in some ways the hardware for the 360 might even be superior to Sony's, outside of the compression issues and the DVDs.?" "Yeah, I mean that's our position that it's almost unequivocal across the board that the 360 is a better platform to develop for. When you get down into actual comparisons on the hardware performance characteristics, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. On almost anything on the strictly graphical side, in terms of pushing vertexes and triangles on there, the 360 hardware is superior to the PS3's RSX on there." I think I got this one too. And the winner for best in-game graphics, the Xbox 360.

"On the processing side it's a little bit more complicated, where the main processor on the PS3 is roughly equivalent to one of the three processors on the 360. But then you wind up saying, you have to compare two other symmetric processors on the 360 versus the eight quirky cell processors. And that comes down to one of those questions, where if you just look at the raw numbers, the cells are much more powerful. Many more flops on there, in theory you can do a lot more, but that's where you come to the difference between theory and practice. And given an infinite amount of development time on there, you can craft a program that's gonna work more efficiently on the cells there than on two additional processors on the 360. But given a finite amount of development time, it's much-much easier to get things working well on the 360 than it is on the PS3. And that's pretty much the case across the board." A tougher one to call. For overall processing power the winner is the PS3. For ease of development the winner is the Xbox 360. Let's call this one a draw.



"And the other major difference is the memory partitioning. Where they're both 512mb machines, but on the PS3 it's partitioned into 256mb of video and 256mb of main. And one of the biggest things that Sony does poorly for developers is their system stuff sucks up a lot more resources than it does, than Microsoft's does on the 360. So memory is much more painful on the PS3. We spend a lot more time trying to crunch down the memory for that..." I'm gonna have to chalk up another win for the Xbox 360. I feel that Sony really shot themselves in the foot here.

On development for Rage. "...and we're trying to say pretty plainly that this is going to be the one thing that the PS3 version is gonna be better at, and in fact it's almost the worst sort of thing for Microsoft there because we are having to work twice as hard on the PS3 to bring it up to spec. But in the end it's going to be 60fps game, and it's going to wind up looking just like the 360, we just had to sweat lot more for it. And if it winds up getting a benefit because of the blu-ray and having the better compression on there, then it's going to wind up looking like the PS3 was the better machine, even though it really wasn't..." So John, how do you really feel about the PS3?



That's kind of a hard act to follow. Personally, I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Carmack's intelligence and his deserving place in the history of video games. So it's hard for me to doubt the validity of anything he said in that interview. I thought that all his points were clear and to the mark, and I didn't sense any animus in them. It was as if I was listening to a professor simply talking to his class.

Upon further examination of what he said, his points seem to be sound. Let's start with the graphics. Whenever a game is on both systems, the Xbox 360 version routinely looks better than the PS3 version. The processor is all about raw numbers. And the raw numbers give the advantage to the PS3. But do most developers have the time to get it right on the PS3? This question has plagued the PS3 almost since it's inception. And developers are no fans of the PS3's memory configuration. I still wonder why Sony chose to do it that way? Was it a cost issue? You want the developers to be in your corner, and in making a machine that is so unique, Sony seems to have limited themselves to only a select few developers who are even up to the task.

I'm not here today to choose a winner. And I am well aware that a number of the arguments presented in here are already many years old. As I stated at the beginning of this piece, I will debate almost any person I know, on whichever system is the best. But not John Carmack. And he has declared that the Xbox 360 is the best.

The entire interview is below.



Is this post awesome? Vote it up!

0



Post a comment! You can also post a photo below:

Comment with Facebook





Click connect and comment instantly!

Comment with Dtoid





New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds

46 comments | showing # 1 to 46
prev next

SilverDragon1979's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:11
SilverDragon1979
If John Carmack says it then it must be true! In John Carmack I trust. All hail the XBOX360!
TheDreadHawk's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:12
TheDreadHawk
Very good write up, my friend. But I expect some sort of fanboy shit storm. :P
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:18
ReclusiveSpirit
@SilverDragon1979...at least your answer wasn't a silly reactionary one. Thanks for your time.
adultswim810's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:27
adultswim810
the link that says xbox games consistently look better mainly uses games that were developed with xbox as the lead console (except burnout paradise, which actually looks exactly the same) AND their contrast settings are retarded and make the xbox appear to have a more vibrant picture.


just saying... nobody freak out...
The Duke's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:27
The Duke
I wish people would just accept that some people prefer one system to another and that not everyone has the same tastes. Just because I like dark chocolate, it doesn't make milk chocolate shit, it's just my preference. In summation all the fanboys should stop comparing these great systems and start eating delicious cadbury treats.
SilverDragon1979's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:30
SilverDragon1979
@REclusivespirit: While my response might have come off as a "silly reactionary one", I was actually being serious. I've been playing John Carmack's games for as long as I can remember, and I personally have a very deep level of respect for the man. If he says the XBOX360 is a better platform to develop for than who am I to disagree.

The guy has been programming games longer then some of us have been on this planet (me excluded). If his opinion about this subject doesn't carry a lot of weight then no one's does.

I personally own an XBOX360 and a PS3, and besides MGS4 I have yet to see a game on the PS3 that makes me think it's any more "powerful" then the XBOX360.

So ... while it might have seemed like my response was a "silly reactionary one", I assure you it was not.
GoS-CPT-Stewart's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:32
GoS-CPT-Stewart
@ AdultSwim

The reason the contrast is off is because the default console settings are used. Sure you can tweak the PS3 to have a similar look to the 360, but most people don't bother, thus the 360 looks more vibrant right out of the box.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:34
ReclusiveSpirit
@SilverDragon1979...my bad. And the things you just wrote could have been written by me.
ParaParaKing's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:37
ParaParaKing
John Carmack is an idiot.

Of course programming is more difficult for them on PS3, since they are a PC developer and the 360 is running on a Windows based OS. So because they can't program the PS3 well, the 360 is the technically superior machine.

All of this is just fanboy war fuel.
Y0j1mb0's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:40
Y0j1mb0
Being more than financially secure and owning all the consoles I found this write up to be interesting as well as hilarious. No offense but I couldn't help laughing my ass off at the line:

"As I stated at the beginning of this piece, I will debate almost any person I know, on whichever system is the best. But not John Carmack. And he has declared that the Xbox 360 is the best."

Take Carmack's name out, replace it with Chuck Norris, and you got yourself a spiffy tshirt I would wear for lulz.

All hail the 360 indeed.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:41
ReclusiveSpirit
@adultswim810...this is some of the things from the link I was referencing: The PlayStation 3 generally lags behind the Xbox 360 in high-quality textures and the depth/normal maps that go with them. Games on the PS3 do tend to be blurrier than their Xbox 360 counterparts, but the PlayStation 3 games can look just as good as the Xbox 360 games when developers put some effort into it, as is evident with both Grand Theft Auto IV and Burnout Paradise. Overall, the PlayStation 3 outputs visuals that are either on par with the Xbox 360 or only slightly behind.
GoS-CPT-Stewart's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:42
GoS-CPT-Stewart
@ParaaraKing

When you're looking at it from a developers standpoint, the 360 is a more powerful machine when given a short amount of time. Because it's familiar, more can be done on it than the PS3.

Like he says in the interview, "And given an infinite amount of development time on there, you can craft a program that's gonna work more efficiently on the cells there than on two additional processors on the 360. But given a finite amount of development time, it's much-much easier to get things working well on the 360 than it is on the PS3."

It's not to start a war, it's to tell the story from a developers view.
SilverDragon1979's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:42
SilverDragon1979
@reclusivespirit: ... ah but they were not written by you. They were written by me. :-P
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:43
ReclusiveSpirit
@YOj1mbO...lol...I'd buy that shirt!
Char Aznable's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:44
Char Aznable
I still can't get past the fact that the man taught himself aerospace engineering. That's pretty damn impressive.

Now excuse me while I tiptoe my way around the whole 360/PS3 thing.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:45
ReclusiveSpirit
@SilverDragon1979...yes, and we don't plagiarize around here. :)
RICHARD BLOCKER's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:45
RICHARD BLOCKER
Excellent write up. There is alot of reportage about the PS3 being difficoult to program for. I own a 360, but not a PS3. I hope that both consoles continue to fare well in the future. IMO, competition breeds a better product for the consumer.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:47
ReclusiveSpirit
@Richard Blocker...I own both systems. But I have no favorite. I just want to play great games.
SilverDragon1979's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 13:56
SilverDragon1979
@Reclusivespirit: Last time I checked JKA 15 was the official Dtoid plagiarizer around here.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:05
ReclusiveSpirit
@SilverDragon1979...I'm so behind the times. Whatever happened to JKA 14?
JACK of No Trades's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:09
JACK of No Trades
Go play Uncharted, Rachet & Clank: Future Tools of Destruction & MGS4 and tell me the PS3 isn't the best system. John Carmac grew up around PC's (the 360 is basically a PC). Modified cell processors are used to power the worlds fastest and strongest supercomputer. If developers took more time with the PS3(like Insomniac, Naughty Dog) many people would see how great the PS3 could be.

And stop with all the John Carmac praise. The guy hasn't realeased a good game since Doom 1 & 2.
SilverDragon1979's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:10
SilverDragon1979
@Reclusivespirit: You didn't hear what happened to JKA 14? He read an article about how John Romero thinks the PS3 would be a much better system then the XBOX360 to program Daikatana on. After reading this he left to go join a John Romero cult and worship at his feet 24/7. This left the door open for JKA 15 to step in.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:13
ReclusiveSpirit
***lol*** @SilverDragon1979.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:19
MaxVest
Man, what about Adrian Carmack?
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:20
ReclusiveSpirit
This was copied from Jack of No Trades blog:

Favorite Games:

Doom Okay...you mentioned this in your comments...but let's not say anything good about Carmack?
Mario 1, 2 ,3 & world
Bioshock
BoogerMan
TNMT2
All Ren & Stempy games
Clayfighters
Earthworm Jim

I own a 64, Gcube, Xbox, SNES, 360 and a Wii. Sold the PS3 early 2007 then turned around and bought another one early 2008 with Uncharted.

Why sell the PS3? Didn't like it the first time? I guess why can all changer our minds on things...
GoS-CPT-Stewart's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:21
GoS-CPT-Stewart
@Jack

Those games are great, but nothing that can't be done on a 360.
Messer's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:24
Messer
At the end of the day its the software that rules the nation. It don't matter if your cell processor can calculate like a super computer, the only thing that will make it a worth while appliance is if team ICO is going to make a game for it.
Yashoki's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:28
Yashoki
@Jack Of No Trades:

You're completely missing the point. The PS3 hardware wise is no doubt the best system, but that alone doesn't make it the best system.

But in the video game world, the PS3 is one of the worst. For making money and actually getting funds to develop another game, the 360 and even the Wii excel more than the PS3 could.

Developing a game costs alot of money, the more time you spend trying to get your game to work because of how they have the system set up, the more money you'll be losing.
MaximusPaynicus's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:45
MaximusPaynicus
This is the video game industry, where your opinion doesn't matter unless you've made a good game in the past year.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 14:49
ReclusiveSpirit
@MaximusPaynicus...well, I suppose they're going to have to shut down almost the entire video game blogging community.
dephect's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 15:30
dephect
@John Carmack

Wanna fight about it?

Anyways, I dont know man... I dont care, I just want to play the games. PLEASE? CAN I HAZ MORE GAMES!?
RonBurgandy2010's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 15:43
RonBurgandy2010
Is your rig on an upstairs balcony?
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 15:47
ReclusiveSpirit
@RB2010...yes, it's in a loft overlooking the living room.
RonBurgandy2010's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 16:01
RonBurgandy2010
If that's your rig, your living room must be one of those dread full "living rooms," the ones with nothing but a couple of couches and a lamp.
ReclusiveSpirit's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 16:05
ReclusiveSpirit
@RB2010...there's an even bigger TV in the living room.
braulio09's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 16:41
braulio09
ugh...
Red TheHaze Veron's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 17:13
Red TheHaze Veron
lolfanboyfodder.

If John Carmack was really smart he would've just shut up.


Ugh, Im starting to sound like a fanboy as well..... braaains... braaaaainsss...
the GAMEGOBLIN's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 17:17
the GAMEGOBLIN
Nobody here can disagree with him. Nobody. You have no right to disagree because you've never worked with the hardware first hand. You're either just saying things someone else has said or just being a fanboy.

Try making a game for the PS3 then the 360 and then disagree. In that sense you can't completely agree with him either as there's no firsthand experience. It does seem unanimous from developers though that the PS3 is hard do develop for, and the majority of game studios that say the PS3 is superior technically is more often than not a first party developer. Unless there's a giant fucking conspiracy trying to make the PS3 look bad headed by M$ (Jesus I hate the dollar sign) which some people seemingly choose to beleive.

I'm just gonna leave my opinion here; I think according to a lot of information that the 360 is somehow a superior console to develop for. That doesn't make me want a PS3 any less though.
Aurvant's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 18:06
Aurvant
Pointless article is pointless.

I'm happy for you that you like your 360. It must feel nice that John Carmack thinks your 360 is the bestest in the whole wide world. Ya know, whatever makes you sleep better at night.
TheDespised's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 18:31
TheDespised
Nice write-up Spirit. Carmack told it like it is, and this is coming from an owner of a PS3.

I think that Aurvantoid missed the point of your blog. Or didn't even read it. Or can't read.

And you even said in one of your comments that you like both your Xbox 360 and PS3. That you had no favorites.

Stupid douche.
Aurvant's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 19:46
Aurvant
@Thedespised - I know how to read asshole I'm just tired of all of these articles that people have to add their two cents on regarding console comparisons. These articles are just as bad as those retarded 360/PS3 comparisons where people zoom in fifty fucking million times just so they can count pixels and then copy pasta a bunch of technical bullshit they read somewhere.

Ok, fine, John Carmack thinks the 360 is the better machine. I guess because he has Absolute fucking moral authority on the matter its settled and we should all just shut the fuck up and think twice about disagreeing. Is that what he's saying? because thats what I got from the article posted above.

Nobody can just talk about how awesome games are these days and give each system their props. No, they have to make a damn comparison every time some multi-plat releases or drudge up old news about one developer saying something is better or something is more complicated.

Like you guys say here:"STFUAJPG". How about following that advice.
RonBurgandy2010's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 20:13
RonBurgandy2010
WHAT THE FUCK MAN!!!



























Wanna share?
Skribble's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 22:13
Skribble
Yeah but can the Xbox360 heat your entire room like my PS3 can heat mine?

Nah, I didn't think so!
RonBurgandy2010's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/04/2008 22:21
RonBurgandy2010
@Skribble
That sounds like a serious system malfunction. Either that or you forgot to ask for a model without a built-in heater.
Vitamin Awesome's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/05/2008 02:57
Vitamin Awesome
Shorter Developer times = more games per developer. Like Carmack said, if you had an infinite time to develop then yes, the PS3 would be superior. It's not always about familiarity with a system, there's also that much more coding the be done, that much more debugging to be done, and overall just a lot more time to consume. It's almost as if the tables have completely turned this generation Vs. the last. The original Xbox had the superior hardware, but was lacking in quality exclusive titles in comparison to the PS2; It also didn't fare well with multiplatform games, seeing as the PS2 titles would generally rank higher in reviews.

So there you have it. The past has proven time and time again that Raw processing power doesn't equate to being the victor of a console war (Atari 5200, 3D0, Atari Jaguar, TurboGrafx-16). It's also shown us that Just because you had the most sales last gen doesn't mean you're going to get the most this generation (Nintendo, Sega). The only thing that I've seen as a constant is the brightest colored console of the generation it's representing is usually the one that sells the most units. (NES Vs. Master system, SNES Vs. Genesis, Playstation Vs. N64 and Saturn, with the exception of the Dreamcast going against the PS2, but the PS2 did have a higher surface area Percentage of blue than the Xbox did with green; also, too many color options for the Gamecube). I might be looking way too much into this, but I don't see anything wrong with multiple console 'winners'. Besides, the wii is selling more than both anyways, further proof that raw power doesn't equate to better sales.

/textwall
Too Much Coffee Man's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/12/2008 04:48
Too Much Coffee Man
@ReclusiveSpirit
Good writing. I read the Eurogamer interview but i missed this one. Anybody who's been gaming since the beginning of 3D knows & respects Carmack. He's definitely a major, if not the major pioneer of modern gaming.


@adultswim810
That's not true. It's not just a matter of contrast. Read up on some of the differences.

Eurogamer's Xbox 360 vs. PS3 Face-Off: Round 13
There are links to all previous Face-Offs on the first page.

Beyond3D's List of Rendering Resolution & AA it should be noted that while some like Marvel:UA do run at 1080p on PS3, if you read the Eurogamer Face-Off you'll find that it's an absolute slide-show in that mode. & that at 720p the 360 actually performs better.

]Japanese blog site Yoda-Dip's screenshot/framerate comparison


@JACK of No Trades
You're totally ignoring the point that the cell based supercomputer you're talking about (Roadrunner) does tasks which are SPECIFICALLY designed to run parallel. Repetitive, mathematical, task specific, single tasks. They also have a modified version of the cell (PowerXCell 8i) which has twice the addressability (re-engineered SPEs with enhanced dual-precision performance) & 8 usable cores (PS3 has 6. 1 is disabled, 1 is dedicated to hypervisor).

It also uses an AMD Opteron for every 2 PowerXCell 8i CPUs. It does this because the PPU by itself isn't capable of managing all of the general code. It boils down to Amdahls's Law. Which maps the degree of improvement possible through parallelization by the amount of parallelability. Some things cant be parallelized; just like you cant take 9 women and have a baby in 1 month.

When Carmack is talking about theoretical power vs. usable power this is what he's referring to. The cell is a stream processor, which means it's awesome for decoding blu-ray HD codec streams. But as far as running game code, it's a royal PITA. Because figuring out how to manage the code is like trying put together a jigsaw puzzle when you're missing half the pieces. It should be excellent at managing many small tasks simultaneously. But for large tasks; it's lack of branching & prediction in the SPUs & generally short pipe means that the tasks have to be either balanced or reduced. Back to the example of trying to take nine women & have a baby in one month.

Also, if you're implying Carmack doesn't understand the Cell; you obviously don't follow his work. He's one of the leads into ray tracing w/ id Tech 6. Which is sort of what the cell should be good at. Unfortunately it's just not powerful enough for real time ray tracing. That will end up w/ AMD/ATi, intel, & nVIDIA once Larrabee & DX11 comes out & the competition for the real next evolution of graphics begins.
prev next

Comment with Facebook





Click connect and comment instantly!

Comment with Dtoid





New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds

Comments policy

Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?

Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!