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Hmmm... I was 32 when the ESRB started (1994), so I guess I never had the experience of wanting a game outside of a rating guideline. :)
In regards to "ageism", yes there is definitely a bias against teenagers. It's not at all uncommon to see clans that require people to be "18 years or older" or to see calls for a game to be M rated on beta test boards simply to deter massive amounts from teenagers from "ruining" the online play.
My own experience is that teenagers are generally no different from adults. Some are wonderfully social, team-oriented players, while others are assholes. I think one thing that does stand out (from a female gamer's perspective) is that the younger teenagers seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with female gamers. In general, they are nice... too nice. They want badly to have a female on their buddy list and can get quite whiny, aggressive or persistent about it (either that, or as one kid did, they teamkill you while screaming "girls don't game" into the mic! LOL!).
I do agree that people should simply be judged on their actions, not their age.
Great blog!
In regards to "ageism", yes there is definitely a bias against teenagers. It's not at all uncommon to see clans that require people to be "18 years or older" or to see calls for a game to be M rated on beta test boards simply to deter massive amounts from teenagers from "ruining" the online play.
My own experience is that teenagers are generally no different from adults. Some are wonderfully social, team-oriented players, while others are assholes. I think one thing that does stand out (from a female gamer's perspective) is that the younger teenagers seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with female gamers. In general, they are nice... too nice. They want badly to have a female on their buddy list and can get quite whiny, aggressive or persistent about it (either that, or as one kid did, they teamkill you while screaming "girls don't game" into the mic! LOL!).
I do agree that people should simply be judged on their actions, not their age.
Great blog!
I am guilty of associating certain gaming behaviours with youth, I must confess. While playing Demon's Souls in coop mode, another player sent me a mail via PSN, but since I was busy dodging spears I just continued playing. I then received several other messages from the same person, so when I finally was in a calm spot I checked and each one of them read "hey wat is ur wepon?". I gave the player a thorough explanation of what it was and how to get it, then I got an answer full of "LOLOL"s and "KK"s and other rubbish. How could I not think it was a 12 years old kid? I didn't answer with any sort of condescending tone; I just wrote properly, hoping someday it will grow on him... but yeah, the thought of that person being someone past high school with those english skills is just too discouraging, so I'd rather be an "ageist" and think it's a teenager. :-P Being young lets you get away with a lot of things, you know!
Regarding games... I am one of those horrible uncles who let their nephew play GTA:Vice City, because I think the young ones deserve to know about how awesome the 80's were (because they were EXACTLY like in Vice City, of course). Seriously, my nephew, 5 years old at the time, just had a blast crashing his vehicle everywhere and had fun rolling at high speeds on a motorcycle on the beach... He punched a few people in the face just because there was a button for it but quickly resumed the funnier car escapades. He didn't have any notion of drug dealers, prostitutes and so forth, he just cared about cars and guns and such, like a lot of boys do. He had a blast, and today in 2009 he isn't a neo-nazi teenager who got his girlfriend pregnant at 13. I'm quite sure it wasn't a bad decision. :)
Regarding games... I am one of those horrible uncles who let their nephew play GTA:Vice City, because I think the young ones deserve to know about how awesome the 80's were (because they were EXACTLY like in Vice City, of course). Seriously, my nephew, 5 years old at the time, just had a blast crashing his vehicle everywhere and had fun rolling at high speeds on a motorcycle on the beach... He punched a few people in the face just because there was a button for it but quickly resumed the funnier car escapades. He didn't have any notion of drug dealers, prostitutes and so forth, he just cared about cars and guns and such, like a lot of boys do. He had a blast, and today in 2009 he isn't a neo-nazi teenager who got his girlfriend pregnant at 13. I'm quite sure it wasn't a bad decision. :)
Really most of the ageism problems stem from the stereotype of the majority ruining things for everyone. For every well-spoken, relatively intelligent teenager you encounter in an online game you get 3-4 loudmouthed, racist, sexist, idiots to contend with, many of whom continue to be annoying well past their early 20's. In the adrenaline fueled predominately young male arena it's considered the cool thing to be as obnoxious as possible, or at least that's what you're likely to come away believing after a few TF2 matches.
Another factor is that most teens simply lack the social experience and skills needed to deal with situations. This isn't a jab at the younger demographic, it's simply an observation that if someone makes a rude comment at a teen they rise to the bait that much more readily and with greater vengeance than someone who's had more experience dealing with difficult people. Typically, they get so defensive that a simple "hey can someone cover the exit" will launch them into a foul-mouthed fury that would make a hardened sailor blush.
The best way to avoid being pigeonholed by ageism is to be aware of it and just try not to fall into the traps people set for you.
As for the ESRB labels, they are meant as a tool for parents to decide what is appropriate for their children, not a measuring stick of maturity. My thoughts are that in and of themselves, they do nothing, but if parents actually care they can always check online and find out enough about the game to decide if it is a good fit for their kids. For the parents who are too lazy and just decide that M games are a no-no, well it sucks for their kids, but really until they are 18 it's the parents decision and I think its fine that those kids can't just go buy the game themselves because it isn't a necessity, its a privilege and in this age of instant-everything gratification parents need all the help they can get reigning their kids in while keeping up with the next hip thing.
The ratings work better when parents do a better job.
Another factor is that most teens simply lack the social experience and skills needed to deal with situations. This isn't a jab at the younger demographic, it's simply an observation that if someone makes a rude comment at a teen they rise to the bait that much more readily and with greater vengeance than someone who's had more experience dealing with difficult people. Typically, they get so defensive that a simple "hey can someone cover the exit" will launch them into a foul-mouthed fury that would make a hardened sailor blush.
The best way to avoid being pigeonholed by ageism is to be aware of it and just try not to fall into the traps people set for you.
As for the ESRB labels, they are meant as a tool for parents to decide what is appropriate for their children, not a measuring stick of maturity. My thoughts are that in and of themselves, they do nothing, but if parents actually care they can always check online and find out enough about the game to decide if it is a good fit for their kids. For the parents who are too lazy and just decide that M games are a no-no, well it sucks for their kids, but really until they are 18 it's the parents decision and I think its fine that those kids can't just go buy the game themselves because it isn't a necessity, its a privilege and in this age of instant-everything gratification parents need all the help they can get reigning their kids in while keeping up with the next hip thing.
The ratings work better when parents do a better job.
let the young run there mouths as much as they want while they can when reality hits them then there on there own if they didn't take the hint and tips from other "elders" along there way then its there own fault.
Alot of the ageism I notice has to do with the fact that the younger you are the more video game history you were likely to have missed therefore your opinion matters less.
Moan about ageism all you want, if I hear a 13 year old boy speaking on my Live headset, and I know it's not kaciesaurus, I am going to mute you.
In large part the whole ESRB thing has less to do with where teenagers are at vis a vis sexual maturity, and more to do with making sure parents have some control over the shit that goes down in their house. It's the same thing with Playboy. It may be of great interest to you, a (hypothetical) 14 year old male, but your mom is going to be less than comfortable with you having it. There's a reason why the age limits on movies, games, etc. are set at the age of adulthood, rather than the age of interest in/readiness for them.
There's a more significant trend of ageism with regard to vidja gaems, I think, and it works in reverse of how you're looking at it. When it comes to things like games and anime, I keep hearing about how I'm sitting around playing games for kids or watching kiddy cartoons, "you're 23, grow up". Um, I just cut the head off of a three-quarters-naked succubus, this game probably isn't meant for kids. This trend will get better with time, though.
In large part the whole ESRB thing has less to do with where teenagers are at vis a vis sexual maturity, and more to do with making sure parents have some control over the shit that goes down in their house. It's the same thing with Playboy. It may be of great interest to you, a (hypothetical) 14 year old male, but your mom is going to be less than comfortable with you having it. There's a reason why the age limits on movies, games, etc. are set at the age of adulthood, rather than the age of interest in/readiness for them.
There's a more significant trend of ageism with regard to vidja gaems, I think, and it works in reverse of how you're looking at it. When it comes to things like games and anime, I keep hearing about how I'm sitting around playing games for kids or watching kiddy cartoons, "you're 23, grow up". Um, I just cut the head off of a three-quarters-naked succubus, this game probably isn't meant for kids. This trend will get better with time, though.
It's probably true that some people are discriminated against for being young, but I think you're brushing aside the real fact of the matter. Teenagers are accountable for their actions. If the grand majority of teenagers you meet are acting like little pricks (you have admitted yourself you'd like to punch most teenagers you met in the face, and I'm the same) then that's just that.
It's got nothing to do with how old they are. Nay, we are treating them as peers and fucking hating their guts for being annoying and useless. At the point that they become a respectable human being, I will treat them like a respectable human being. You can't expect me to give a pass to anyone. I've met some incredibly cool little kids who acted more mature than half the adult population. Likewise I've met some incredibly uncool senior citizens who make Hot Topic kids seem tolerable.
If you decide to give young people a pass just because they're young, you're just building them up to keep acting like that into the rest of their lives, effectively never growing up. You really have to draw the line at what qualifies as "just being young" and what qualifies as "just being a prick." The first one we can maybe have some tolerance for, yeah. The second. No. Absolutely no tolerance. I don't care how old you are.
If you don't understand the difference of what should be tolerated and what should not as a parent or even as a human being then someday you're going to raise up a bunch of teenagers who have sexual urges and don't understand that getting women drunk and raping them is fucking wrong. Oh, wait. We have those already. I wonder where they came from.
It's got nothing to do with how old they are. Nay, we are treating them as peers and fucking hating their guts for being annoying and useless. At the point that they become a respectable human being, I will treat them like a respectable human being. You can't expect me to give a pass to anyone. I've met some incredibly cool little kids who acted more mature than half the adult population. Likewise I've met some incredibly uncool senior citizens who make Hot Topic kids seem tolerable.
If you decide to give young people a pass just because they're young, you're just building them up to keep acting like that into the rest of their lives, effectively never growing up. You really have to draw the line at what qualifies as "just being young" and what qualifies as "just being a prick." The first one we can maybe have some tolerance for, yeah. The second. No. Absolutely no tolerance. I don't care how old you are.
If you don't understand the difference of what should be tolerated and what should not as a parent or even as a human being then someday you're going to raise up a bunch of teenagers who have sexual urges and don't understand that getting women drunk and raping them is fucking wrong. Oh, wait. We have those already. I wonder where they came from.
For clarity a good bit of my rant isn't trying to rebuke you. It's really just a rant. I understand that teenagers have some unique dilemmas and adults are overly fearful, but I just don't like the idea of brushing it off. Your post gave me the tone that kids should be allowed to just be kids, which I agree with to an extent, but my rant speaks for itself on that.
ESRB is and was a total load of shit. It doesn't hinder me these years but I remember trying to buy games like GTA: Vice City and getting fucked over because I was 14 or something. Censorship is an evil that tries to smother and control kids that just want to play some Halo or Call of Duty. I played Quake 2 when I was 8. It didn't turn me into a monster.
Well, this gotten a lot more attention than I thought. Maybe I should have mention a bit more ageism that older gamers (like 40+ and especially 50+) get from younger people.
@ Elsa: I notice that the average teenage male mostly acts overly nice to gamers that he thinks are girls so that he can “impress” them. I’m not saying it’s wrong to be nice, but for reasons like this, I can’t help but feel it is.
@ Piellar: “He had a blast, and today in 2009 he isn't a neo-nazi teenager who got his girlfriend pregnant at 13. I'm quite sure it wasn't a bad decision. :)”
Not yet, just give it some more time… :)
@ Zodiac Eclipse: There is no denying that more teenagers are loudmouths than those that are not, which I experience all the time. However, people tend to assume that all teenagers are like that. Sadly, I feel like it’s only some fresh apples on an otherwise rotten apple tree. If only more parents would actually understand what the ESRB ratings actually mean. Ultimately it’s up to the parent(s) to decide what is right for their child and the store polices of not selling M-rated games to those under 17 is supposed to stop resourceful teenagers from easily catching their parents off guard. Even now, all modern gaming systems have parental controls built in so that even having the game in hand isn’t enough to play it. I still don’t get how the “games are for kids” mentality still exists today especially when the most popular games are usually M rated.
@ Pangloss: Oh how I remember when I could buy a M rated game when I was young before stores stopped allowing that. I do know what you mean when people act like adults are not allowed to play E rated games because “their too old” for them. I wonder if the trend will improve, with more and more people getting uptight about violet video games these days.
@ Wry Guy: I never said anything about giving teenagers a free pass for bad behavior. If anything, I felt like the students back when I was in high school got off way too easy for all but the most major things. I also don’t think they should just freely act on their sexual urges without limits, especially when it becomes overboard like rape and trying to justify it. Should it get that far, I think they should learn the hard way the punishment for such an act, even if they are only 14 years old. Giving them lesser punishments can easily set them up to doing more of the same undesirable behaviors since they figure they will just get off the hook easier simply because their younger. I think people are freaking out too much if teenagers see any kind of nudity or want to act like even the most minor of sexual urges.
In case anyone got any wrong impressions, I guess I should have made it clearer that I do believe there can be dangers to exposing developing minds to certain things in the wrong context. I’m also aware that a lot of stereotypical teenager behavior is things like wild driving and I’m not justifying stuff like that just because it’s common. I’m somewhat apathy, but not completely.
@ Elsa: I notice that the average teenage male mostly acts overly nice to gamers that he thinks are girls so that he can “impress” them. I’m not saying it’s wrong to be nice, but for reasons like this, I can’t help but feel it is.
@ Piellar: “He had a blast, and today in 2009 he isn't a neo-nazi teenager who got his girlfriend pregnant at 13. I'm quite sure it wasn't a bad decision. :)”
Not yet, just give it some more time… :)
@ Zodiac Eclipse: There is no denying that more teenagers are loudmouths than those that are not, which I experience all the time. However, people tend to assume that all teenagers are like that. Sadly, I feel like it’s only some fresh apples on an otherwise rotten apple tree. If only more parents would actually understand what the ESRB ratings actually mean. Ultimately it’s up to the parent(s) to decide what is right for their child and the store polices of not selling M-rated games to those under 17 is supposed to stop resourceful teenagers from easily catching their parents off guard. Even now, all modern gaming systems have parental controls built in so that even having the game in hand isn’t enough to play it. I still don’t get how the “games are for kids” mentality still exists today especially when the most popular games are usually M rated.
@ Pangloss: Oh how I remember when I could buy a M rated game when I was young before stores stopped allowing that. I do know what you mean when people act like adults are not allowed to play E rated games because “their too old” for them. I wonder if the trend will improve, with more and more people getting uptight about violet video games these days.
@ Wry Guy: I never said anything about giving teenagers a free pass for bad behavior. If anything, I felt like the students back when I was in high school got off way too easy for all but the most major things. I also don’t think they should just freely act on their sexual urges without limits, especially when it becomes overboard like rape and trying to justify it. Should it get that far, I think they should learn the hard way the punishment for such an act, even if they are only 14 years old. Giving them lesser punishments can easily set them up to doing more of the same undesirable behaviors since they figure they will just get off the hook easier simply because their younger. I think people are freaking out too much if teenagers see any kind of nudity or want to act like even the most minor of sexual urges.
In case anyone got any wrong impressions, I guess I should have made it clearer that I do believe there can be dangers to exposing developing minds to certain things in the wrong context. I’m also aware that a lot of stereotypical teenager behavior is things like wild driving and I’m not justifying stuff like that just because it’s common. I’m somewhat apathy, but not completely.
... just a side note, but being a 47 year old, I rarely encounter "old" ageism. I'm not at all shy about saying my age... it's part of who I am. Being older though, people don't really know your age until you mention it. I often do mention it as it's a very handy way to sometimes deter those guys that try to "pick up" gals in online games. :)
