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I kicked no ones nuts.
But I'm glad its up, great write-up phil.
YOU SEE THIS SENOR ANDY? This is the kind of stuff you should put on the front page :D
But I'm glad its up, great write-up phil.
YOU SEE THIS SENOR ANDY? This is the kind of stuff you should put on the front page :D
FFFFFAP!
Any who this is a really good thought provoking post. I usually tend to avoid sexism related stuff because of reasons but I really like how this post handled this topic along with the other major topics related to it.
Yes I think women should have completely equal rights. I have no problem whatsoever with women getting into gaming be it playing them or developing them, and I find it hard to believe that this is even an issue especially in this day and age. Great post! (I feel like I have more to say but that's pretty much the main things I wanted to say).
Any who this is a really good thought provoking post. I usually tend to avoid sexism related stuff because of reasons but I really like how this post handled this topic along with the other major topics related to it.
Yes I think women should have completely equal rights. I have no problem whatsoever with women getting into gaming be it playing them or developing them, and I find it hard to believe that this is even an issue especially in this day and age. Great post! (I feel like I have more to say but that's pretty much the main things I wanted to say).
Awesome write up and very thought provoking. I honestly have no idea how to entice women in to the gaming industry or how to keep the younger generation of women gaming. As much as I sit here and try to come up with a solution, I can't.. and that disturbs me. I'm a witty guy and a quick thinker, but seriously, how in the hell do we make this happen? Without throwing out an obvious poll asking women who are already gamers what type of games they like and what things they would like to see in future games, I guess I don't know the answer because the gaming industry already caters to me as a male on so many different levels.
I just wanna link to this little tumblr post I read today because I feel like it's a good example of how misogyny is so deeply ingrained into our patriarchal society and is a form of systematic oppression. More specifically, this is a good example of the kind of stuff that usually flies under the radar for us, and I never thought about it like this until today. Here it is:
http://viewsfromthecouch.com/2012/02/12/you-didnt-thank-me-for-punching-you-in-the-fac/
I think if most people are honest with themselves they would recognize getting negative feelings from things like this (not necessarily specifically this one) in the past even though they probably didn't know why or what it actually meant in terms of sexism, society, patriarchy, misogyny, etc., but still probably decided to "stay away" from it, or even participate begrudgingly. I know it's happened to me a lot; I can definitely recall instances of a younger me making jokes or adopting certain attitudes that I wasn't sure of just to fit in.
Also, I forgot to mention how it's important to point out that patriarchy affects men too. Remember Misandry in Video Games? People complaining about men being represented as shallow, testosterone driven meatheads? These are classic patriarchal gender roles for men. I think it's interesting how there's a clear dissonance between these models and the same gamers who also go on to attack feminism and its participants, not realizing they should be with them. Patriarchy systematically oppresses women, imposing subdued gender roles on them and continually diminishing them. But patriarchy also wants to perpetuate itself, and it does this through men. So, to the men out there: before you shrug patriarchy off as some sort of evil feminist agenda, think of all the times you've been in a situation where you've felt forced to act in a "manly" way and otherwise suffered a gender role that you did not want to take part in, or all the times people that do take part in it have bashed you for not doing so or for being different. Examples: queerphobia, homophobia, biphobia, fear of femininity (word for this?), transphobia, and so on.
Now, I said that in a desperate effort to connect with more men, but for the love of god do not make this the main subject, or bring it up as an opposition to feminism. If you are a man (remember you don't have to be: you choose your gender), you reap the privilege it comes with, even if you don't act in a way patriarchy wants you to, and this phenomenon is a joke when compared to what women and other oppressed groups experience.
http://viewsfromthecouch.com/2012/02/12/you-didnt-thank-me-for-punching-you-in-the-fac/
I think if most people are honest with themselves they would recognize getting negative feelings from things like this (not necessarily specifically this one) in the past even though they probably didn't know why or what it actually meant in terms of sexism, society, patriarchy, misogyny, etc., but still probably decided to "stay away" from it, or even participate begrudgingly. I know it's happened to me a lot; I can definitely recall instances of a younger me making jokes or adopting certain attitudes that I wasn't sure of just to fit in.
Also, I forgot to mention how it's important to point out that patriarchy affects men too. Remember Misandry in Video Games? People complaining about men being represented as shallow, testosterone driven meatheads? These are classic patriarchal gender roles for men. I think it's interesting how there's a clear dissonance between these models and the same gamers who also go on to attack feminism and its participants, not realizing they should be with them. Patriarchy systematically oppresses women, imposing subdued gender roles on them and continually diminishing them. But patriarchy also wants to perpetuate itself, and it does this through men. So, to the men out there: before you shrug patriarchy off as some sort of evil feminist agenda, think of all the times you've been in a situation where you've felt forced to act in a "manly" way and otherwise suffered a gender role that you did not want to take part in, or all the times people that do take part in it have bashed you for not doing so or for being different. Examples: queerphobia, homophobia, biphobia, fear of femininity (word for this?), transphobia, and so on.
Now, I said that in a desperate effort to connect with more men, but for the love of god do not make this the main subject, or bring it up as an opposition to feminism. If you are a man (remember you don't have to be: you choose your gender), you reap the privilege it comes with, even if you don't act in a way patriarchy wants you to, and this phenomenon is a joke when compared to what women and other oppressed groups experience.
A kick in the nuts isn't a literal attack or even a verbal one. But fine, you gently reminded me and inquired about this.
Ooooooh, wish I had checked my e-mail sooner. Awesome shit, Phil. Wish I wasn't super sleepy and super busy catching up with the comics I need to write (before the artists I work with hang me by my nuts), I would have loved to jump in the fray with both feet.
That said, I'll leave these links here. These were both in this past week's "This Week in Video Game Criticism" on Gamasutra, via Critical Distance(for the record, anyone looking for deeper insight on a great many issues, Critical Distance does an amazing job aggregating amazing blog posts from around the net. Definitely worth a look, lots of stuff there I would never have seen otherwise.)
http://www.bitcreature.com/editorials/the-other-one/
http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html
Both fairly decent reads regardless of which side of the fence you reside.
That said, I'll leave these links here. These were both in this past week's "This Week in Video Game Criticism" on Gamasutra, via Critical Distance(for the record, anyone looking for deeper insight on a great many issues, Critical Distance does an amazing job aggregating amazing blog posts from around the net. Definitely worth a look, lots of stuff there I would never have seen otherwise.)
http://www.bitcreature.com/editorials/the-other-one/
http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html
Both fairly decent reads regardless of which side of the fence you reside.
Ooops, forgot this one (again, from this past week's "This Week in Video Game Criticism).
http://finenessandaccuracy.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/oh-look-its-time-to-talk-about-gamer-culture-and-rape-culture-again/
That one is particularly specific, so a heads up in case anyone checks it out.
http://finenessandaccuracy.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/oh-look-its-time-to-talk-about-gamer-culture-and-rape-culture-again/
That one is particularly specific, so a heads up in case anyone checks it out.
Regardless of how games represent women, there's no way I'd feel comfortable watching my wife play anything on Xbox Live. What will it take for the internet social stance to get unfucked?
@Arttemis
Most likely a complete removal of anonymity on the internet. Nobody would dare to say that shit if they couldn't hide behind their moniker.
Most likely a complete removal of anonymity on the internet. Nobody would dare to say that shit if they couldn't hide behind their moniker.
Glad you showed up Alan. I'll read those tonight and hopefully by morning, we have some more talking.
Thanks for the kind words everyone.
Thanks for the kind words everyone.
Front page it!
Phil, you're one of my favourite people in this community. Glad to see a blog of yours, and so well written. Congrats bro!
Phil, you're one of my favourite people in this community. Glad to see a blog of yours, and so well written. Congrats bro!
Egalitarianism. I don't know what you're having for dinner, but that sounds good to me.
I love Stephen's point, because even I have the tendency to still think that way, but only due to it still being a thing that happens. Anybody can use this argument just for the attention, but it makes more sense to assume a female will. Just as it makes sense to assume a guy has a legitimate investment in gaming when he talks about it, because the majority of us do. It's a stigma that hasn't loosened its grip at all, either on the internet or otherwise.
I love Stephen's point, because even I have the tendency to still think that way, but only due to it still being a thing that happens. Anybody can use this argument just for the attention, but it makes more sense to assume a female will. Just as it makes sense to assume a guy has a legitimate investment in gaming when he talks about it, because the majority of us do. It's a stigma that hasn't loosened its grip at all, either on the internet or otherwise.
Awesome write up Phil!!!
I have not been commenting on D-toid as much as I use to as it has been a super, super busy time! Between graduating, going on a month long vacation, getting married (two weeks ago), starting the job hunt, applying for grad school, and all the daily happenings, I have missed D-toid and the community :c
I have not been commenting on D-toid as much as I use to as it has been a super, super busy time! Between graduating, going on a month long vacation, getting married (two weeks ago), starting the job hunt, applying for grad school, and all the daily happenings, I have missed D-toid and the community :c
I was looking forward to this, and I'm glad to see it finally appear.
I feel that a lot of the misogyny in video games, not the industry and its hiring practices, stems from creative bankruptcy and not necessarily actual misogyny, though the result is still the same and there are certainly titles that do reek of it.
I don't really care if a title is filled with fist bumping bro dudes, but I do care that I can find plenty of them while I struggle to find many new titles with compelling female protagonists. To be honest, it's hard to find games with a compelling protagonist regardless of gender. While I'm not dismissing the industry's double standards, I think that actually attempting to be creative or mildly believable would go a long way to progressing the typical gender roles in games to the point where they are actually positive, or at least interesting. It's a lot easier to create a generic bloke with a surly demeanour than a character with depth, let alone one as uncommon as a lassie, unfortunately.
Whatever one thinks about Anita Sarkessian, the events surrounding her Kickstarter project definitely raised the level of awareness, and, I think, discourse on the subject of gender in video games. It also revealed the disgusting amount of hate and contempt that some individuals have for something which challenges them. I still think her project sounds like a bit of a mess, but it stirred up a hornets nest and got people chatting about it endlessly. That might have made some people sick of the topic, but it's not often it actually gets discussed enough for it to make people bored; the colour of Dante's hair in the new DMC normally gets more fucking attention.
It makes me happy that this isn't going to blow over, and plenty of people see it as an important issue in gaming which is worthy of discussion -- as this and Jim's recent piece on the subject shows.
Anyway, thanks for the work you put into this! It's great stuff. Mega-fap.
I feel that a lot of the misogyny in video games, not the industry and its hiring practices, stems from creative bankruptcy and not necessarily actual misogyny, though the result is still the same and there are certainly titles that do reek of it.
I don't really care if a title is filled with fist bumping bro dudes, but I do care that I can find plenty of them while I struggle to find many new titles with compelling female protagonists. To be honest, it's hard to find games with a compelling protagonist regardless of gender. While I'm not dismissing the industry's double standards, I think that actually attempting to be creative or mildly believable would go a long way to progressing the typical gender roles in games to the point where they are actually positive, or at least interesting. It's a lot easier to create a generic bloke with a surly demeanour than a character with depth, let alone one as uncommon as a lassie, unfortunately.
Whatever one thinks about Anita Sarkessian, the events surrounding her Kickstarter project definitely raised the level of awareness, and, I think, discourse on the subject of gender in video games. It also revealed the disgusting amount of hate and contempt that some individuals have for something which challenges them. I still think her project sounds like a bit of a mess, but it stirred up a hornets nest and got people chatting about it endlessly. That might have made some people sick of the topic, but it's not often it actually gets discussed enough for it to make people bored; the colour of Dante's hair in the new DMC normally gets more fucking attention.
It makes me happy that this isn't going to blow over, and plenty of people see it as an important issue in gaming which is worthy of discussion -- as this and Jim's recent piece on the subject shows.
Anyway, thanks for the work you put into this! It's great stuff. Mega-fap.
Your general introduction that dealt with acceptance and acknowledging bullshit all around not just in gaming is exactly how I feel. I hold doors for anyone that doesn't look like a douchebag and they come in all colours, sizes and genders.
There is agrowing problem with sexism and for some reason this year especially there has been a heightened number of related incidences, not just in gaming a lone but increased within gaming and I don't even mean the design of a female character, I mean from real life people being completely obnoxious to other real life people.
Sexism and the hatred of women has always existed. Sometimes it's not as high on the reports, other times it's steady and then sadly it's on a big incline. To be honest it existing at all is sad for there's no logical reason for it.
Men and women have always existed, how we came into existences is different to different people, but we were always equally there.
I just don't get how some people can be so disgusting towards women and forget their mothers, their sisters or if they have them their daughters and frankly I find it hard to believe that most people who are blatant in their behaviour even get to touch a woman to gain a wife or daughter. To those women that encourage or laugh alongside others who demean their gender, you're just as bad if not worse.
Common decency as Phil said is becoming a lost art and I find that quite saddening for us all, not just for how people treat a gender. Being decent is fucking awesome and being a toolbag just isn't.
Within gaming I find that this whole Anita thing doesn't quite make sense. It reeks of 4chan escapades and I've seen people on Dtoid (as well as other places) acting like obssessive idiots, showing tell tale signs that they might have issues with women themselves, probably because of the simple fact that some people that happened to be women hurt them or spurned them. If you're an asshole regardless of what's between your legs you should damn well get spurned.
Anita's video content (when she posts them and the few I've seen) seems to be professional and well done. I'm not talking about the quality or subjects I'm purely referring to the production side. She is one of many people out there that are doing what she does, so to single her out and behave moronically is giving the person you hate so much coverage and spreading her name.
Games still have a blatant and underlying combo of sexism, some that effects men but for the most part women. You can be sexy and attractive without being useless and demeaning, but there are many forms of attractiveness.
Whenever I feel that things are bleak and women are starting to feel the need to board themselves up for protection it's nice to know that other human beings are aware of this and speak up. Thanks Phil.
There is agrowing problem with sexism and for some reason this year especially there has been a heightened number of related incidences, not just in gaming a lone but increased within gaming and I don't even mean the design of a female character, I mean from real life people being completely obnoxious to other real life people.
Sexism and the hatred of women has always existed. Sometimes it's not as high on the reports, other times it's steady and then sadly it's on a big incline. To be honest it existing at all is sad for there's no logical reason for it.
Men and women have always existed, how we came into existences is different to different people, but we were always equally there.
I just don't get how some people can be so disgusting towards women and forget their mothers, their sisters or if they have them their daughters and frankly I find it hard to believe that most people who are blatant in their behaviour even get to touch a woman to gain a wife or daughter. To those women that encourage or laugh alongside others who demean their gender, you're just as bad if not worse.
Common decency as Phil said is becoming a lost art and I find that quite saddening for us all, not just for how people treat a gender. Being decent is fucking awesome and being a toolbag just isn't.
Within gaming I find that this whole Anita thing doesn't quite make sense. It reeks of 4chan escapades and I've seen people on Dtoid (as well as other places) acting like obssessive idiots, showing tell tale signs that they might have issues with women themselves, probably because of the simple fact that some people that happened to be women hurt them or spurned them. If you're an asshole regardless of what's between your legs you should damn well get spurned.
Anita's video content (when she posts them and the few I've seen) seems to be professional and well done. I'm not talking about the quality or subjects I'm purely referring to the production side. She is one of many people out there that are doing what she does, so to single her out and behave moronically is giving the person you hate so much coverage and spreading her name.
Games still have a blatant and underlying combo of sexism, some that effects men but for the most part women. You can be sexy and attractive without being useless and demeaning, but there are many forms of attractiveness.
Whenever I feel that things are bleak and women are starting to feel the need to board themselves up for protection it's nice to know that other human beings are aware of this and speak up. Thanks Phil.
I didn't think what I said was going to be directly taken! I'm okay with it just ... editing needed and stuff clarified...Plus I kinda left the site.
Also while this is a cool idea, I really don't think destructoid is the right place to do it justice.
Also while this is a cool idea, I really don't think destructoid is the right place to do it justice.
I didn't think what I said was going to be directly taken! I'm okay with it just ... editing needed and stuff clarified...Plus I kinda left the site.
Also while this is a cool idea, I really don't think destructoid is the right place to do it justice.
Also while this is a cool idea, I really don't think destructoid is the right place to do it justice.
sorry that is just send more question and didn't send my toughts
i honestly think there are far more intelligent people then me to discus this issue
thanks for your hard work
i honestly think there are far more intelligent people then me to discus this issue
thanks for your hard work
also common descency has been lost a while ago
do you remember when people taught you that when a handicapped or elderly person got on the bus you had to give them your seat?
that's an official enforced rule in my country now....
do you remember when people taught you that when a handicapped or elderly person got on the bus you had to give them your seat?
that's an official enforced rule in my country now....
damnit 3 posts in a row
i hadn't read the whole thing when i sent my first post so i would like to retract the
"i honestly think there are far more intelligent people" comment
i just read gyrael's submission
i hadn't read the whole thing when i sent my first post so i would like to retract the
"i honestly think there are far more intelligent people" comment
i just read gyrael's submission
I think poor writing has something to do with it, a lot of games are just lazily geared towards men when they don’t need to be and a lot of them would be much improved if they took a step back and thought about it. Like in Sleeping Dogs there’s all these pointless date missions where you just hang around with random women, do a minigame or something and then have implied sex with them, and they’re just never brought up again, it makes Wei Shen, who’s otherwise likeable, seem like a dick. They give some excuse that he can’t get involved with anyone because he’s deep undercover, but to me that just makes him more of a dick for leading them on, he does this like five times. And don’t even get me started on the girl whose mission is “drive fast till I get horny”.
I can’t remember where, but I once read that when someone writes a bad movie, it does poorly and the writer learns from their mistakes, when someone writes a bad game, it sells a million copies anyway and they write a sequel. I think we need to demand more of our games writing or they never stop appealing to that base male audience they think we all are.
I can’t remember where, but I once read that when someone writes a bad movie, it does poorly and the writer learns from their mistakes, when someone writes a bad game, it sells a million copies anyway and they write a sequel. I think we need to demand more of our games writing or they never stop appealing to that base male audience they think we all are.
Nice write up and my own concerns tend to coincide with Jaded's. Sarkeesian is already being consulted by developers and I hope that developers understand that Sarkeesian's views of female representation in games are from the viewpoint of a feminist media critic and don't at all represent what women in general want from games, nor will it likely attract more women to gaming. (The divisiveness of Bayonetta is a good example of the extremely divergent views of women on a character created by women)
My other concern is that Sarkeesian did multiple interviews with both the gaming press and the general press regarding the harassment of women in the gaming world and her situation is NOT representative of what most women experience when gaming, on gaming sites or in the gaming world. Yes, there is some discrimination and harssment - but her situation was from the perspective of something more akin to Jack Thompson's campaign to change gaming to something less violent rather than from the perspective of an average female gamer.
Sarkeesian is a feminist media critic. Video games are a form of media. She is simply presenting a very narrow viewpoint of how she thinks video games continue to propogate a patriarchal society through the use of tropes (or common themes) of how females in video games are portrayed. Her opinion has validity for developers wishing to present more politically correct female characters that might be viewed more favorably by feminists in the general public who subscribe to the anti -patriarchal feminist viewpoint - but this is a pretty small demographic.
As I said in a previous blog, if developers want to know what type of charcters female gamers want, if they want to know what might attract more female gamers to AAA games - they just have to ask. There are lots of female gamers and surveys are not difficult to do nowadays. The majority consensus might be surprising... and even if it ends up closer to Juliette Starling instead of Jade - the information will be much more useful to devs that what Sarkeesian produces.
Again, Sarkeesian's work has validity... as a feminist critiquing an aspect of current media. For those that are interested in feminist views of current media, her work should evoke lots of interesting discussion. Aside from that, I don't know that her series will accomplish much and I don't know that there is much validity for the more general gaming world. Politically correct female game characters that don't ascribe to partiarchal male qualities may or may not attract more women to gaming, it may or may not help to create characters that women gamers like.
... to be honest, most of the tropes she is covering are something that has been written about before and that most gamers and developers are already aware of. What will be interesting is not the negative review of past female game characters, but rather any suggestions for change and how female characters in games should be created, and the danger is that she will be perceived as representing "women" in general and not herself in particular with her views.
/long ramble. :)
My other concern is that Sarkeesian did multiple interviews with both the gaming press and the general press regarding the harassment of women in the gaming world and her situation is NOT representative of what most women experience when gaming, on gaming sites or in the gaming world. Yes, there is some discrimination and harssment - but her situation was from the perspective of something more akin to Jack Thompson's campaign to change gaming to something less violent rather than from the perspective of an average female gamer.
Sarkeesian is a feminist media critic. Video games are a form of media. She is simply presenting a very narrow viewpoint of how she thinks video games continue to propogate a patriarchal society through the use of tropes (or common themes) of how females in video games are portrayed. Her opinion has validity for developers wishing to present more politically correct female characters that might be viewed more favorably by feminists in the general public who subscribe to the anti -patriarchal feminist viewpoint - but this is a pretty small demographic.
As I said in a previous blog, if developers want to know what type of charcters female gamers want, if they want to know what might attract more female gamers to AAA games - they just have to ask. There are lots of female gamers and surveys are not difficult to do nowadays. The majority consensus might be surprising... and even if it ends up closer to Juliette Starling instead of Jade - the information will be much more useful to devs that what Sarkeesian produces.
Again, Sarkeesian's work has validity... as a feminist critiquing an aspect of current media. For those that are interested in feminist views of current media, her work should evoke lots of interesting discussion. Aside from that, I don't know that her series will accomplish much and I don't know that there is much validity for the more general gaming world. Politically correct female game characters that don't ascribe to partiarchal male qualities may or may not attract more women to gaming, it may or may not help to create characters that women gamers like.
... to be honest, most of the tropes she is covering are something that has been written about before and that most gamers and developers are already aware of. What will be interesting is not the negative review of past female game characters, but rather any suggestions for change and how female characters in games should be created, and the danger is that she will be perceived as representing "women" in general and not herself in particular with her views.
/long ramble. :)
I was told there would be cake and smoothies if I dropped my zombie act for a bit and joined this discussion. In addition to the cake, I expect double faps from everyone on all my blogs and fan art from at least 10 people.
I'm responding to this point: How do we keep young women gaming, when all they see is a man's world, filled with boobs and guns?
My girlfriend is not a gamer. Part of me says thank god, because if she was, we'd be fighting over who got to play Dead Space tonight.
However, she does enjoy playing some games occasionally. Her favorites are Katamari, LBP2, and ilomilo. About once a month she says she wants to play something, and I boot it up.
This is not to say that most girls only want to play games that have simple mechanics and cutesy aesthetics, but I think if more girls were introduced to games that aren't about boobs, guns, boobguns, gunboobs, dicktits, necromorphs, gods of wars, gears of wars, lords of wars, etc, more girls would appreciate the medium.
Also, as Handy mentioned the writing in most games is complete shit. For example, I recently picked up MGS4. I loved the SHIT out of the first one when I was younger. But 4 is fucking unbearable. That god damned monkey and the arms dealer are beyond pointless. Most of the cutscenes are completely worthless. (Gameplay can be pretty fun, but you gotta get through all the fucking dialogue to enjoy it.) It has the potential to have a good story (one that my gf might even like), but right now it's unbearable. Just unbearable.
I'm responding to this point: How do we keep young women gaming, when all they see is a man's world, filled with boobs and guns?
My girlfriend is not a gamer. Part of me says thank god, because if she was, we'd be fighting over who got to play Dead Space tonight.
However, she does enjoy playing some games occasionally. Her favorites are Katamari, LBP2, and ilomilo. About once a month she says she wants to play something, and I boot it up.
This is not to say that most girls only want to play games that have simple mechanics and cutesy aesthetics, but I think if more girls were introduced to games that aren't about boobs, guns, boobguns, gunboobs, dicktits, necromorphs, gods of wars, gears of wars, lords of wars, etc, more girls would appreciate the medium.
Also, as Handy mentioned the writing in most games is complete shit. For example, I recently picked up MGS4. I loved the SHIT out of the first one when I was younger. But 4 is fucking unbearable. That god damned monkey and the arms dealer are beyond pointless. Most of the cutscenes are completely worthless. (Gameplay can be pretty fun, but you gotta get through all the fucking dialogue to enjoy it.) It has the potential to have a good story (one that my gf might even like), but right now it's unbearable. Just unbearable.
@Elsa
I don't understand your logic in this separation between gamers and feminists, as if both groups shouldn't intersect. Feminism shouldn't be viewed as some optional philosophy that you could take on or not. It should be the rule. You seem to imply that gamers' interests conflict with those of feminism. Well, I suppose they do, considering its horrible audience, but that does not mean the gaming world (or any space) gets a license to get a way perpetuating the patriarchy.
And anti-patriarchal feminists are a minority? Seriously? Where'd you get that idea? And what kind of person could possibly NOT be opposed to the patriarchy?
Also, Sarkeesian's situation is not like most female/women gamers? If you're referring to the harassment campaign she experienced, then I suppose you are right, since obviously not a lot of people experience it in such magnitude. However, I fail to see how this is at all an argument since the magnitude of the phenomenon is simply due to her the public nature of her person and to the attitude of the gaming/internet community who is well known for participating in organized, absolutely irresponsible onslaughts such as that. The campaign still stems from the same place all of sexism and misogyny does. If anything, it was a perfect showcase of what kind of people inhabit the gaming community. Anyway, I'm rambling on a supposition now, but yeah.
Finally, why do you say Sarkeesian's views are narrow? I honestly can't see this. I can perfectly understand disagreeing more specifically with something she said in one of her videos, but in general she's a very reasonable person that propagates her views with common sense.
I would really like to hear your views in a PM or something, especially about the first paragraphs, since Sarkeesian is not the subject here. I would like to hear on what you disagree with here also, though.
I don't understand your logic in this separation between gamers and feminists, as if both groups shouldn't intersect. Feminism shouldn't be viewed as some optional philosophy that you could take on or not. It should be the rule. You seem to imply that gamers' interests conflict with those of feminism. Well, I suppose they do, considering its horrible audience, but that does not mean the gaming world (or any space) gets a license to get a way perpetuating the patriarchy.
And anti-patriarchal feminists are a minority? Seriously? Where'd you get that idea? And what kind of person could possibly NOT be opposed to the patriarchy?
Also, Sarkeesian's situation is not like most female/women gamers? If you're referring to the harassment campaign she experienced, then I suppose you are right, since obviously not a lot of people experience it in such magnitude. However, I fail to see how this is at all an argument since the magnitude of the phenomenon is simply due to her the public nature of her person and to the attitude of the gaming/internet community who is well known for participating in organized, absolutely irresponsible onslaughts such as that. The campaign still stems from the same place all of sexism and misogyny does. If anything, it was a perfect showcase of what kind of people inhabit the gaming community. Anyway, I'm rambling on a supposition now, but yeah.
Finally, why do you say Sarkeesian's views are narrow? I honestly can't see this. I can perfectly understand disagreeing more specifically with something she said in one of her videos, but in general she's a very reasonable person that propagates her views with common sense.
I would really like to hear your views in a PM or something, especially about the first paragraphs, since Sarkeesian is not the subject here. I would like to hear on what you disagree with here also, though.
@Gyrael... I think that everyone believes in classic (or liberal) feminism... that women are entitled to legal, social and economic equality - but as a movement feminism is now moving into widely diverse areas and yes - it's entirely optional as to what view people ascribe to.
One of the better examples is Bayonetta. Some feminists believed her to be a wonderful feminist role model of a powerful, sexually assured women... while others (including Sarkeesian) hated Bayonetta. Feminists themselves (those who wear the label and either study or write on feminist topics) can't seem to agree on good/bad examples of video game, movie or other characterizations of women. They can't agree on what they want from the feminist movement or where it should go. Patriarchal feminists... again, there are divergent theories and beliefs. Some women believe in separatism - that women need to completely separate from men in order to dissolve the partriarchy (and this includes celibacy or lesbianism as an alternate to sex with men) - sorry... I'm definitely not into separatist feminism. Others think that marriage, education, the workforce - all of these social structures are patriarchal in nature and need to be abolished or changed. Many feminists see things like being a single mother as a positive (men are apparently disposable and our children should be raised without the partriarchal structure of a man as the head of a family), whereas others ...
Oh hell, there are as many feminist theories as there are economic theories. No... I do not have to ascribe to the partriarchal theory of men being evil beings seeking to subjugate women. I like marriage and believe it can be a voluntary joining of two equals (no matter what gender they are). I believe that while men may have physcial power, women have (and use) sexual power.... but it doesn't matter what I believe because every women has different beliefs.
Yes, there is harassment in the gaming world - but Sarkeesian is not in the gaming world. She doesn't play a lot of online games and write about her everyday gaming experiences, she doesn't participate on gaming sites, gaming forums or regularly attend gaming events or conventions. The overkill of all the interviews with her somehow representing the misogyny of women and the gaming world accomplished nothing and simply perpetuated the stereotype that video games are a man's world.
You seem to have the same problem that a lot of men (and the press) do ... that you seem to think women somehow agree with Sarkeesian's project or her views. Her series on tropes is nothing new - there are lots of tropes in video games and most have been discussed and written about before. Sarkeesian's views ARE narrow. They represent her viewpoint... one person. Just as my viewpoints are narrow, just as yours are. I'm sure we're all reasonable people... but a character I like may well not be one that you or Ms. Sarkeesian likes.
.. and there's nothing wrong with that... unless people start perceiving that she represents what women want from games - which she doesn't.
One of the better examples is Bayonetta. Some feminists believed her to be a wonderful feminist role model of a powerful, sexually assured women... while others (including Sarkeesian) hated Bayonetta. Feminists themselves (those who wear the label and either study or write on feminist topics) can't seem to agree on good/bad examples of video game, movie or other characterizations of women. They can't agree on what they want from the feminist movement or where it should go. Patriarchal feminists... again, there are divergent theories and beliefs. Some women believe in separatism - that women need to completely separate from men in order to dissolve the partriarchy (and this includes celibacy or lesbianism as an alternate to sex with men) - sorry... I'm definitely not into separatist feminism. Others think that marriage, education, the workforce - all of these social structures are patriarchal in nature and need to be abolished or changed. Many feminists see things like being a single mother as a positive (men are apparently disposable and our children should be raised without the partriarchal structure of a man as the head of a family), whereas others ...
Oh hell, there are as many feminist theories as there are economic theories. No... I do not have to ascribe to the partriarchal theory of men being evil beings seeking to subjugate women. I like marriage and believe it can be a voluntary joining of two equals (no matter what gender they are). I believe that while men may have physcial power, women have (and use) sexual power.... but it doesn't matter what I believe because every women has different beliefs.
Yes, there is harassment in the gaming world - but Sarkeesian is not in the gaming world. She doesn't play a lot of online games and write about her everyday gaming experiences, she doesn't participate on gaming sites, gaming forums or regularly attend gaming events or conventions. The overkill of all the interviews with her somehow representing the misogyny of women and the gaming world accomplished nothing and simply perpetuated the stereotype that video games are a man's world.
You seem to have the same problem that a lot of men (and the press) do ... that you seem to think women somehow agree with Sarkeesian's project or her views. Her series on tropes is nothing new - there are lots of tropes in video games and most have been discussed and written about before. Sarkeesian's views ARE narrow. They represent her viewpoint... one person. Just as my viewpoints are narrow, just as yours are. I'm sure we're all reasonable people... but a character I like may well not be one that you or Ms. Sarkeesian likes.
.. and there's nothing wrong with that... unless people start perceiving that she represents what women want from games - which she doesn't.
@Elsa
Fair enough; I'm talking about the core ideal of feminism, which is gender equality for women. I think anyone should agree with that, and I mean equality in all dimensions. And so should gamers. So my point is that feminism, in that sense, is something everyone should be concerned with.
I have not played Bayonetta or have investigated much about the elaboration of that character, so I refrain on commenting on that. However, you kinda dodged the bullet on patriarchy there. I asked how anyone could support patriarchy. In my experience, a lot feminists mainly revolve around concepts of gender equality and patriarchy's systematic oppression. I think it is definitely clear that education and worforces still commnonly have large traces of patriarchy, as do a lot of people's views on marriage, and in that sense these institutions should be changed. That said, it is also commonly acknowledged that this does not void the validity of a woman who wishes for marriage (be it with a man or any gender), or one who is attracted to men, etcetera. The common thread amongst most feminists is, again, the idea of gender equality and freedom for women. Which I think is what Sarkeesian mostly bases herself in.
Anyway, again, I really don't mean to make her the topic: what I do want to make the topic, though, is how these ideals should be propagated and common to all humans, regardless of how particular branches of feminism take those ideals into practice and to what extent. And this is because we all stand on the same base ground. If some women want to separate from men, then so be it, they are free to do so. And so are those who don't. These things depend on the wills of the parties involved; the problem is that women's wills are the ones most largely ignored, ridiculed, and disrespected.
I definitely acknowledge these differences of opinion, though, as I said in my messy entry (I actually offered to write something better but I completely forgot until Phil emailed me this link). And I acknowledge Sarkeesian does not speak for all women, as I also said in my entry. The problem is the immediate rejection of feminism by the gaming community, and I don't think you disagree with that. The problem is that the large majority of the gaming community is very clearly sexist. As is a large part of the nerd internet subculture (I still don't know what to call this thing, as I don't like using the word nerd since it's very vague, but think of the people who frequent reddit, 4chan, videogame websites, and so on). A quick trip to the SRS subreddit will show you this in hard evidence, as will it show large amounts of racism, ableism, fatphobia, queerphobia, and so on.
Fair enough; I'm talking about the core ideal of feminism, which is gender equality for women. I think anyone should agree with that, and I mean equality in all dimensions. And so should gamers. So my point is that feminism, in that sense, is something everyone should be concerned with.
I have not played Bayonetta or have investigated much about the elaboration of that character, so I refrain on commenting on that. However, you kinda dodged the bullet on patriarchy there. I asked how anyone could support patriarchy. In my experience, a lot feminists mainly revolve around concepts of gender equality and patriarchy's systematic oppression. I think it is definitely clear that education and worforces still commnonly have large traces of patriarchy, as do a lot of people's views on marriage, and in that sense these institutions should be changed. That said, it is also commonly acknowledged that this does not void the validity of a woman who wishes for marriage (be it with a man or any gender), or one who is attracted to men, etcetera. The common thread amongst most feminists is, again, the idea of gender equality and freedom for women. Which I think is what Sarkeesian mostly bases herself in.
Anyway, again, I really don't mean to make her the topic: what I do want to make the topic, though, is how these ideals should be propagated and common to all humans, regardless of how particular branches of feminism take those ideals into practice and to what extent. And this is because we all stand on the same base ground. If some women want to separate from men, then so be it, they are free to do so. And so are those who don't. These things depend on the wills of the parties involved; the problem is that women's wills are the ones most largely ignored, ridiculed, and disrespected.
I definitely acknowledge these differences of opinion, though, as I said in my messy entry (I actually offered to write something better but I completely forgot until Phil emailed me this link). And I acknowledge Sarkeesian does not speak for all women, as I also said in my entry. The problem is the immediate rejection of feminism by the gaming community, and I don't think you disagree with that. The problem is that the large majority of the gaming community is very clearly sexist. As is a large part of the nerd internet subculture (I still don't know what to call this thing, as I don't like using the word nerd since it's very vague, but think of the people who frequent reddit, 4chan, videogame websites, and so on). A quick trip to the SRS subreddit will show you this in hard evidence, as will it show large amounts of racism, ableism, fatphobia, queerphobia, and so on.
By the way, just to clarify, I feel like Sarkeesian is a pretty neutral meeting point for different feminism currents. I didn't really follow press coverage on her case, but to me it was clear that the problem was the clearly sexist and misogynistic silencing of her as a woman and a feminist (keep in mind she was even white, so think about what happens to WOC's voices), not that her views were necessarily right.
@Elsa
I think there's this huge problem with assuming Sarkeesian speaks for all female gamers, even if it's only assuming that people think that Sarkeesian thinks for all female gamers. I'm willing to bet that an insignificant set of people actually follow the line of thought that you're cautioning against. It would be like arguing against the Jimquisition because not all male gamers feel the same way as Jim, so how dare he act as a consulate between gamers and the Outside World. He doesn't. Sarkeesian doesn't either. It's a non-issue.
(Also it's worth noting how it's problematic to assume that Sarkeesian thinks to speak for all female gamers - as opposed to feminist gamers, media critical gamers, gamers who demand a higher standard of quality, or even just gamers in general. Nobody would caution against the Jimquisition because it doesn't represent all male gamers, because Jim's gender is on the most part irrelevant in the context of the arguments he makes. Qualifying Sarkeesian's videos as directly or indirectly "representative of female gamers" carries the false connotation that her gender is primary to her arguments. It's similar to how some people have said "Look! I found a female gamer who disagrees with Sarkeesian! Now we can disregard all her arguments!")
On that point, it's worth noting that it doesn't matter one whit if someone else has discussed gaming tropes before. The FF project isn't just a layout of tropes. It's a qualitative and quantitative critique of videogames and their use of female-unfriendly tropes from a feminist (NB not "the" feminist) perspective on media consumption.
Many people have said it's been done before. Personally I've yet to see any of them ground this in a citation or a link. But like I said, even if it has been done before, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done again. There are plenty of video series on the web that discuss the state of the gaming industry - should Jim Sterling have nipped the Jimquisition in the bud on that basis? It would have been a dreadful shame if he had. Wrap it up, everyone, there's nothing original under the sun! Go home and sleep forever!
Nah, there's plenty of room for another video series that tackles tropes from a feminist perspective. The fact that it had reached it's funding in a single day (weeks before the harassment kicked in) proves that enough people want it to warrant it.
Lastly, the point that Sarkeesian is not in the gaming world puzzles me. She was definitely a gamer before this project began. Maybe she participated in online gaming communities or maybe she didn't - it doesn't really matter. (By the way, what makes you think she doesn't play online games and all that? Isn't that just needless exclusionary criteria?) But you absolutely cannot deny that the harassment targeted against Sarkeesian for this videogames-related project is outside and unrelated to the gaming world.
I think there's this huge problem with assuming Sarkeesian speaks for all female gamers, even if it's only assuming that people think that Sarkeesian thinks for all female gamers. I'm willing to bet that an insignificant set of people actually follow the line of thought that you're cautioning against. It would be like arguing against the Jimquisition because not all male gamers feel the same way as Jim, so how dare he act as a consulate between gamers and the Outside World. He doesn't. Sarkeesian doesn't either. It's a non-issue.
(Also it's worth noting how it's problematic to assume that Sarkeesian thinks to speak for all female gamers - as opposed to feminist gamers, media critical gamers, gamers who demand a higher standard of quality, or even just gamers in general. Nobody would caution against the Jimquisition because it doesn't represent all male gamers, because Jim's gender is on the most part irrelevant in the context of the arguments he makes. Qualifying Sarkeesian's videos as directly or indirectly "representative of female gamers" carries the false connotation that her gender is primary to her arguments. It's similar to how some people have said "Look! I found a female gamer who disagrees with Sarkeesian! Now we can disregard all her arguments!")
On that point, it's worth noting that it doesn't matter one whit if someone else has discussed gaming tropes before. The FF project isn't just a layout of tropes. It's a qualitative and quantitative critique of videogames and their use of female-unfriendly tropes from a feminist (NB not "the" feminist) perspective on media consumption.
Many people have said it's been done before. Personally I've yet to see any of them ground this in a citation or a link. But like I said, even if it has been done before, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done again. There are plenty of video series on the web that discuss the state of the gaming industry - should Jim Sterling have nipped the Jimquisition in the bud on that basis? It would have been a dreadful shame if he had. Wrap it up, everyone, there's nothing original under the sun! Go home and sleep forever!
Nah, there's plenty of room for another video series that tackles tropes from a feminist perspective. The fact that it had reached it's funding in a single day (weeks before the harassment kicked in) proves that enough people want it to warrant it.
Lastly, the point that Sarkeesian is not in the gaming world puzzles me. She was definitely a gamer before this project began. Maybe she participated in online gaming communities or maybe she didn't - it doesn't really matter. (By the way, what makes you think she doesn't play online games and all that? Isn't that just needless exclusionary criteria?) But you absolutely cannot deny that the harassment targeted against Sarkeesian for this videogames-related project is outside and unrelated to the gaming world.
Neat post, and I'm glad you finally put it together Phil. I totally get why it took so long. It's just one of those impossible topics that takes infinite time to explain fully. Might as well try to write a book.
Part I: I think Elsa really nailed some key points in the comments that are very worth further consideration. Even if we ignore the Anita controversy altogether, the core assumption that underlies all of these debates is that all women agree about whether or not something is sexist. It's never said aloud of course; because as soon as you identify this point, you realize almost instantly that it's false. Women are diverse, just like everyone else, and there is no collective hive mind that agrees on things for the whole gender to adopt.
As Elsa mentioned, Bayonetta is a great example. To some women, she's one of the best characters in gaming - strong, powerful, sexy, funny, stylish, and uniquely feminine. To other women, she's one of the worst - an insult to women everywhere, an attempt to cater to men through female exploitation and sexual objectification. Pretty much polar opposite opinions.
What that debate is about though, is not really just Bayonetta - it's a debate about sexuality itself, and freedom of choice. Is sex, sexuality, sexual expression, sexual objectification, and sexual fetishism something negative? Or, is this the most normal, healthy, predictable behavior on the planet? There are plenty of women who are on both sides of this debate. That sounds painfully obvious, but it's something that most people getting outraged about sexism in gaming truly do not seem to understand at all.
For every person out there claiming that the Dead or Alive series is sexist and deplorable because of scantily-clad women prancing around in bikinis, there are just as many, if not more people who find that kind of sexual expression liberating, exciting, and even empowering. Men and women. Let that sink in for a moment, seriously. I know what many of you are thinking. "What women could really find Dead or Alive personally entertaining with characters like this?"
"Surely all women find this deeply sexist and troubling!?" Well, they really don't. Remember that women are the vast majority of the fanbase supporting this person ...
Let that sink in as well. The vast majority of her fans are women. And it's not like it's just her. The list would be nearly infinite if we tried to show all the different times that women have supported freedom of sexual expression since the 1960s ... you know, 50 years ago. A lot of people who pick apart "sexism" in gaming, are just looking for sex instead. Then they summon all the moral outrage they can muster, and are basically yelling at digital women because their ankles are showing. And this is called progressive. In reality, it's a deeply conservative point of view. Not only is this brand of feminism deeply anti-sex, but it's also just as authoritarian as fundamentalist Christianity. It presumes to understand the opinions of half the world's population, and what they find offensive.
What if a woman explains clearly that they're mistaken, and that they don't find these sorts of things offensive? Many feminists then say that these women are still victims. Instead of them just stating a dissenting opinion, many feminists believe that these women have just been conditioned by society to eroticize their own oppression and to internalize "male gaze." It's basically saying straight up that most women can't think for themselves and make up their own mind. I find that to be a sexist point of view that really insults the diversity and intelligence of women everywhere. Women who don't fit into this feminist narrative are no longer having their rights "protected." Instead it's really the opposite, because they don't act how feminists want them to act, and don't think how feminists want them to think. It's freedom for women to do what they want you to do. This isn't even touching on the freedom of men yet, the other half of the planet.
Part II: The other core problem I have with virtually all discussions of the supposed sexist content in games, is that almost no one will truly explain what their solution to the "problem" is. Much like the point up above, no one ever explains their solution because as soon as they do, it becomes very clear that their solution is not a good idea. What do I mean by that? Let me explain with a brief example, and attempt to really take the accusation of sexism to it's natural conclusion.
a) "Problem": Dead or Alive depicts women in a sexist way.
b) "Solution": (this is the main point, no one ever has one. but really, there are only a few possibilities)
- 1) Choose to not buy the game.
- 2) Support efforts to get women into game design, so that they can theoretically develop alternative products.
- 3) Launch a smear campaign against Dead or Alive until the developers change the game to fit our demands.
First, the stated problem was already shown to be false. Refer to Part I if you don't understand why. But let's just go along with the premise so we can see how misguided the solutions are as well.
1) Choose to not buy the game. This is a great solution and is the solution of choice for most everyone, in every other form of media. If you don't like it, simply don't buy it. Buy the games you want instead that feature characters you like.
2) Support efforts to get women into game design. This is also a perfectly fine effort, and one that I don't ever see anyone even bring up, ever. Instead of just trying to impose your narrow view on others in an authoritarian way, you just smartly help invest in making the stuff you actually want. However, it's still a flawed approach when you think about it, because it's still based on the idea that all women find the same things to be universally sexist, when they really don't. Take Tomb Raider for example. That had a huge gender controversy over the depiction of Lara Croft. But a little known fact is that the new game is actually being written by a famous female author. In this case, we've already skipped ahead past all the fundraising, the school, the hiring, and the game creation efforts right to the very end. Here's a woman working on the story for the game, and feminists found it to be deeply offensive and sexist. See what I mean?
3) Launch a smear campaign against Dead or Alive until the developers censor and/or alter their game to fit our demands. This is basically the only thing I've seen people argue for in all the gaming-related articles. It's just straight up calling for content to get deleted, censored, banned, changed, whatever you want to call it. It's basically saying that unless the content is acceptable to them, it doesn't deserve to exist for anyone, regardless of how others feel about the content. It's a completely authoritarian view of art, media, and freedom of speech and artistic expression.
It's really very similar, if not exactly the same as the Christian fundamentalist anti-sex crusades of previous decades. Let's take a very clear cut, obvious example. Hustler. They didn't choose to simply not buy it, and ignore it. They didn't choose instead fund magazines they like. They instead tried to just destroy it. Keep in mind that Hustler is obviously far more sexually graphic than anything in gaming, not to mention it's real people and not virtual ones. Even still, Hustler is still around and if you ever saw a group of people protesting Hustler outside a gas station, you would all correctly look at them like they're neanderthals.
Take whatever you think is sexist and carry it to it's farthest possible extreme. Basically that extreme would be pornography. Even then, it would fully have every right to exist. So what exactly is the "sexism" problem in gaming, and what exactly is the solution? The more you dissect it, the sillier it becomes. If you don't believe me, look at that picture of Lady Gaga again.
And even if you're some anti-sex crusader for purity, no one should be able to claim they do this for a progressive cause. What if it was graphic gay sexuality in a game? Should people shame consumers who purchase this content? No, of course not. So why do we selectively shame heterosexuals? Why is Dead or Alive sexist, but Dragon Age 2 is GOTY at BorderHouse.com? One just has skimpy outfits, and the other has multiple sex scenes. If Dragon Age had more graphic gay sex in it, more erotic optional content, and more sexual expression, would it then be "sexist"? The answer is obviously no. People have completely lost the ability to determine the difference between sexuality and sexism. The two are interchangeable now.
Part III: Why are there not more women in game development already? The common unstated premise here is that men have kept them out. Gaming is a vicious boy's only club that actively tries to exclude women. This is laughable with even a rudimentary understanding of the history of gaming culture.
For most of the times games have been out, gamers have been social outcasts. They were nerds before "nerd" was a good word. It's a generalization, but most women would have laughed you out of the room if you suggested that they take up a career in game design in say .... 1998, let alone the 1980s, or 1970s. The main reason so few women are in gaming now is because, generally speaking, a huge percentage of women have not been interested in gaming at all until relatively recently. The social stigma surrounding gaming changed drastically as it became more mainstream. No one kept women out of the industry. Most women just simply avoided all involvement with gaming until pretty recently. Maybe the last 10 years or so. This is of course a generalization. And before then, no one was telling women and girls they couldn't play Sonic, Mario, Final Fantasy, Zelda, and the million other games out there that have nothing at all to do with gender. The games have always been there, but large percentages of women have historically rejected the entire media form. It's a stereotype because for a good while, it was fairly accurate. I never wanted that to be the case. The first time I met girls that played games, I felt like I had found the lost treasure of Atlantis.
Believe it or not, no one really cares to exclude the other gender from an entire form of media. Men and women watch TV, they read books, they watch movies, they listen to music. If there's a movie that's explicitly designed for men, women simply ignore it and go see a movie designed for them. You don't see many women protesting Expendables 2 for being a male power fantasy and failing to have realistic, powerful female characters in it. Instead they just go see something that appeals to them - and for some women, they're into Expendables 2 just fine the way it is now. No one is trying to censor it or ban it, and there's no gender war over any of this. Why should there be one for gaming? There shouldn't.
No one kept them out of gaming. If women want to get into game development now, go for it! I'm all for it. More diversity in the designer pool can only help increase diversity of games. But people need to realize, it may take a while because until fairly recently, the very idea of working in gaming and taking gaming seriously was socially stigmatized by huge groups of women, by adults, by most of society even. It doesn't mean that no women were gaming, because they have since the beginning. But they were a small minority unfortunately.
And something else to think about, is that women traditionally place a higher emphasis on developing their family life alongside their careers. How many women are going to be fine with crunch time, and all the horror stories we've heard from game developers this gen when instead, they could get a much better job doing other kinds of software development or computer engineering?
And I'll just wrap up the post now. I feel like I barely even got into anything, didn't even mention most of the contentious issues with modern feminism, or half of the issues going on in the subtext of these debates. It's just too tiring to bring people up to speed completely if they haven't followed any of this, and tried to really seriously investigate what people are talking about. I didn't even mention men yet; male perspectives and rights; male gaming culture, or how men are often characterized and generalized in negative ways by feminists.
To summarize key points here: 1) feminist arguments about games dovetail very closely with the Christian right. They are authoritarian in nature, and anti-sex. 2) People should simply not buy games they find objectionable. Trying to actually determine what acceptable content is for all of society is authoritarian censorship, and there's just no way to make the right call. Everyone feels differently about the games, and especially about sexual content. 3) If you want to do something positive and proactive, support more diversity in game development by trying to find ways to encourage people to get into the industry. Be warned though, I hear it's a bit of a soul crushing experience. Also, just because women are in the industry doesn't guarantee they'll make games that feminists like. Jade Raymond (female) made Assassin's Creed and is now working on Splinter Cell. Motomu Toriyama (male) made Final Fantasy X-2. Gender isn't a monolithic block. 4) Even if you push sexual content in games to it's conclusion (pornography - which it is currently very, very far from), it's still totally deserving to exist; and it would still have significant numbers of female fans. You just can't argue for games being altered to suit feminist taste, without arguing that Lady Gaga has to go; and then now suddenly, we have thought police.
The end.
P.S. If you're going to argue with me, present the problem and the solution.
Part I: I think Elsa really nailed some key points in the comments that are very worth further consideration. Even if we ignore the Anita controversy altogether, the core assumption that underlies all of these debates is that all women agree about whether or not something is sexist. It's never said aloud of course; because as soon as you identify this point, you realize almost instantly that it's false. Women are diverse, just like everyone else, and there is no collective hive mind that agrees on things for the whole gender to adopt.
As Elsa mentioned, Bayonetta is a great example. To some women, she's one of the best characters in gaming - strong, powerful, sexy, funny, stylish, and uniquely feminine. To other women, she's one of the worst - an insult to women everywhere, an attempt to cater to men through female exploitation and sexual objectification. Pretty much polar opposite opinions.
What that debate is about though, is not really just Bayonetta - it's a debate about sexuality itself, and freedom of choice. Is sex, sexuality, sexual expression, sexual objectification, and sexual fetishism something negative? Or, is this the most normal, healthy, predictable behavior on the planet? There are plenty of women who are on both sides of this debate. That sounds painfully obvious, but it's something that most people getting outraged about sexism in gaming truly do not seem to understand at all.
For every person out there claiming that the Dead or Alive series is sexist and deplorable because of scantily-clad women prancing around in bikinis, there are just as many, if not more people who find that kind of sexual expression liberating, exciting, and even empowering. Men and women. Let that sink in for a moment, seriously. I know what many of you are thinking. "What women could really find Dead or Alive personally entertaining with characters like this?"
"Surely all women find this deeply sexist and troubling!?" Well, they really don't. Remember that women are the vast majority of the fanbase supporting this person ...
Let that sink in as well. The vast majority of her fans are women. And it's not like it's just her. The list would be nearly infinite if we tried to show all the different times that women have supported freedom of sexual expression since the 1960s ... you know, 50 years ago. A lot of people who pick apart "sexism" in gaming, are just looking for sex instead. Then they summon all the moral outrage they can muster, and are basically yelling at digital women because their ankles are showing. And this is called progressive. In reality, it's a deeply conservative point of view. Not only is this brand of feminism deeply anti-sex, but it's also just as authoritarian as fundamentalist Christianity. It presumes to understand the opinions of half the world's population, and what they find offensive.
What if a woman explains clearly that they're mistaken, and that they don't find these sorts of things offensive? Many feminists then say that these women are still victims. Instead of them just stating a dissenting opinion, many feminists believe that these women have just been conditioned by society to eroticize their own oppression and to internalize "male gaze." It's basically saying straight up that most women can't think for themselves and make up their own mind. I find that to be a sexist point of view that really insults the diversity and intelligence of women everywhere. Women who don't fit into this feminist narrative are no longer having their rights "protected." Instead it's really the opposite, because they don't act how feminists want them to act, and don't think how feminists want them to think. It's freedom for women to do what they want you to do. This isn't even touching on the freedom of men yet, the other half of the planet.
Part II: The other core problem I have with virtually all discussions of the supposed sexist content in games, is that almost no one will truly explain what their solution to the "problem" is. Much like the point up above, no one ever explains their solution because as soon as they do, it becomes very clear that their solution is not a good idea. What do I mean by that? Let me explain with a brief example, and attempt to really take the accusation of sexism to it's natural conclusion.
a) "Problem": Dead or Alive depicts women in a sexist way.
b) "Solution": (this is the main point, no one ever has one. but really, there are only a few possibilities)
- 1) Choose to not buy the game.
- 2) Support efforts to get women into game design, so that they can theoretically develop alternative products.
- 3) Launch a smear campaign against Dead or Alive until the developers change the game to fit our demands.
First, the stated problem was already shown to be false. Refer to Part I if you don't understand why. But let's just go along with the premise so we can see how misguided the solutions are as well.
1) Choose to not buy the game. This is a great solution and is the solution of choice for most everyone, in every other form of media. If you don't like it, simply don't buy it. Buy the games you want instead that feature characters you like.
2) Support efforts to get women into game design. This is also a perfectly fine effort, and one that I don't ever see anyone even bring up, ever. Instead of just trying to impose your narrow view on others in an authoritarian way, you just smartly help invest in making the stuff you actually want. However, it's still a flawed approach when you think about it, because it's still based on the idea that all women find the same things to be universally sexist, when they really don't. Take Tomb Raider for example. That had a huge gender controversy over the depiction of Lara Croft. But a little known fact is that the new game is actually being written by a famous female author. In this case, we've already skipped ahead past all the fundraising, the school, the hiring, and the game creation efforts right to the very end. Here's a woman working on the story for the game, and feminists found it to be deeply offensive and sexist. See what I mean?
3) Launch a smear campaign against Dead or Alive until the developers censor and/or alter their game to fit our demands. This is basically the only thing I've seen people argue for in all the gaming-related articles. It's just straight up calling for content to get deleted, censored, banned, changed, whatever you want to call it. It's basically saying that unless the content is acceptable to them, it doesn't deserve to exist for anyone, regardless of how others feel about the content. It's a completely authoritarian view of art, media, and freedom of speech and artistic expression.
It's really very similar, if not exactly the same as the Christian fundamentalist anti-sex crusades of previous decades. Let's take a very clear cut, obvious example. Hustler. They didn't choose to simply not buy it, and ignore it. They didn't choose instead fund magazines they like. They instead tried to just destroy it. Keep in mind that Hustler is obviously far more sexually graphic than anything in gaming, not to mention it's real people and not virtual ones. Even still, Hustler is still around and if you ever saw a group of people protesting Hustler outside a gas station, you would all correctly look at them like they're neanderthals.
Take whatever you think is sexist and carry it to it's farthest possible extreme. Basically that extreme would be pornography. Even then, it would fully have every right to exist. So what exactly is the "sexism" problem in gaming, and what exactly is the solution? The more you dissect it, the sillier it becomes. If you don't believe me, look at that picture of Lady Gaga again.
And even if you're some anti-sex crusader for purity, no one should be able to claim they do this for a progressive cause. What if it was graphic gay sexuality in a game? Should people shame consumers who purchase this content? No, of course not. So why do we selectively shame heterosexuals? Why is Dead or Alive sexist, but Dragon Age 2 is GOTY at BorderHouse.com? One just has skimpy outfits, and the other has multiple sex scenes. If Dragon Age had more graphic gay sex in it, more erotic optional content, and more sexual expression, would it then be "sexist"? The answer is obviously no. People have completely lost the ability to determine the difference between sexuality and sexism. The two are interchangeable now.
Part III: Why are there not more women in game development already? The common unstated premise here is that men have kept them out. Gaming is a vicious boy's only club that actively tries to exclude women. This is laughable with even a rudimentary understanding of the history of gaming culture.
For most of the times games have been out, gamers have been social outcasts. They were nerds before "nerd" was a good word. It's a generalization, but most women would have laughed you out of the room if you suggested that they take up a career in game design in say .... 1998, let alone the 1980s, or 1970s. The main reason so few women are in gaming now is because, generally speaking, a huge percentage of women have not been interested in gaming at all until relatively recently. The social stigma surrounding gaming changed drastically as it became more mainstream. No one kept women out of the industry. Most women just simply avoided all involvement with gaming until pretty recently. Maybe the last 10 years or so. This is of course a generalization. And before then, no one was telling women and girls they couldn't play Sonic, Mario, Final Fantasy, Zelda, and the million other games out there that have nothing at all to do with gender. The games have always been there, but large percentages of women have historically rejected the entire media form. It's a stereotype because for a good while, it was fairly accurate. I never wanted that to be the case. The first time I met girls that played games, I felt like I had found the lost treasure of Atlantis.
Believe it or not, no one really cares to exclude the other gender from an entire form of media. Men and women watch TV, they read books, they watch movies, they listen to music. If there's a movie that's explicitly designed for men, women simply ignore it and go see a movie designed for them. You don't see many women protesting Expendables 2 for being a male power fantasy and failing to have realistic, powerful female characters in it. Instead they just go see something that appeals to them - and for some women, they're into Expendables 2 just fine the way it is now. No one is trying to censor it or ban it, and there's no gender war over any of this. Why should there be one for gaming? There shouldn't.
No one kept them out of gaming. If women want to get into game development now, go for it! I'm all for it. More diversity in the designer pool can only help increase diversity of games. But people need to realize, it may take a while because until fairly recently, the very idea of working in gaming and taking gaming seriously was socially stigmatized by huge groups of women, by adults, by most of society even. It doesn't mean that no women were gaming, because they have since the beginning. But they were a small minority unfortunately.
And something else to think about, is that women traditionally place a higher emphasis on developing their family life alongside their careers. How many women are going to be fine with crunch time, and all the horror stories we've heard from game developers this gen when instead, they could get a much better job doing other kinds of software development or computer engineering?
And I'll just wrap up the post now. I feel like I barely even got into anything, didn't even mention most of the contentious issues with modern feminism, or half of the issues going on in the subtext of these debates. It's just too tiring to bring people up to speed completely if they haven't followed any of this, and tried to really seriously investigate what people are talking about. I didn't even mention men yet; male perspectives and rights; male gaming culture, or how men are often characterized and generalized in negative ways by feminists.
To summarize key points here: 1) feminist arguments about games dovetail very closely with the Christian right. They are authoritarian in nature, and anti-sex. 2) People should simply not buy games they find objectionable. Trying to actually determine what acceptable content is for all of society is authoritarian censorship, and there's just no way to make the right call. Everyone feels differently about the games, and especially about sexual content. 3) If you want to do something positive and proactive, support more diversity in game development by trying to find ways to encourage people to get into the industry. Be warned though, I hear it's a bit of a soul crushing experience. Also, just because women are in the industry doesn't guarantee they'll make games that feminists like. Jade Raymond (female) made Assassin's Creed and is now working on Splinter Cell. Motomu Toriyama (male) made Final Fantasy X-2. Gender isn't a monolithic block. 4) Even if you push sexual content in games to it's conclusion (pornography - which it is currently very, very far from), it's still totally deserving to exist; and it would still have significant numbers of female fans. You just can't argue for games being altered to suit feminist taste, without arguing that Lady Gaga has to go; and then now suddenly, we have thought police.
The end.
P.S. If you're going to argue with me, present the problem and the solution.
Wow. I'm so glad that so many of you responded and are talking. I'd add to this, but Elsa and Shinta have covered anything I'd like to say already. I'll drink some coffee and reread the comments and see if I can't add anything to this discussion. Hopefully this will get front paged too.
@Shinta
"Many feminists then say that these women are still victims. Instead of them just stating a dissenting opinion, many feminists believe that these women have just been conditioned by society to eroticize their own oppression and to internalize "male gaze." It's basically saying straight up that most women can't think for themselves and make up their own mind."
Not at all. It's more like saying people (in this case, women) are affected by societal perceptions, norms and constructs. It's saying that society often tells us what to believe and a significant portion of the time people comply. For example, this very popular notion that most girls like pink because "they simply do," that it's normal and natural and inevitable and immutable, whereas in fact the whole "girls liking pink" thing is only a comparatively new phenomenon in the context of human history.
As for offering a solution, I can't think of a single feminist blog that has outlined a problem of sexism in any given area where the basic undercurrent of a solution hasn't been "stop doing that." Very basic. Even if it's not explicitly said, it's always the implied solution. For example, Girlfriend Mode? Stop thinking that way. Stop talking that way. Tomb Raider? Stop presenting sexual assault as a great opportunity and experience. Harassing female gamers? Stop harassing female gamers.
Now, as for how the overt sexual-objectification of women in our culture, the glorification of sexual violence against women, the attitude that women are a means to the men's end, the attitude that women don't count as participants in an audience, and all that stuff, is fantastic and proper? It would be nice if the gaming industry at large - hell, if society at large were to stop imposing their narrow viewpoint on others in an authoritarian way.
"Many feminists then say that these women are still victims. Instead of them just stating a dissenting opinion, many feminists believe that these women have just been conditioned by society to eroticize their own oppression and to internalize "male gaze." It's basically saying straight up that most women can't think for themselves and make up their own mind."
Not at all. It's more like saying people (in this case, women) are affected by societal perceptions, norms and constructs. It's saying that society often tells us what to believe and a significant portion of the time people comply. For example, this very popular notion that most girls like pink because "they simply do," that it's normal and natural and inevitable and immutable, whereas in fact the whole "girls liking pink" thing is only a comparatively new phenomenon in the context of human history.
As for offering a solution, I can't think of a single feminist blog that has outlined a problem of sexism in any given area where the basic undercurrent of a solution hasn't been "stop doing that." Very basic. Even if it's not explicitly said, it's always the implied solution. For example, Girlfriend Mode? Stop thinking that way. Stop talking that way. Tomb Raider? Stop presenting sexual assault as a great opportunity and experience. Harassing female gamers? Stop harassing female gamers.
Now, as for how the overt sexual-objectification of women in our culture, the glorification of sexual violence against women, the attitude that women are a means to the men's end, the attitude that women don't count as participants in an audience, and all that stuff, is fantastic and proper? It would be nice if the gaming industry at large - hell, if society at large were to stop imposing their narrow viewpoint on others in an authoritarian way.
Thank you Shinta!! I guess I wasn't explaining myself particularly well... but you were eloquent in making my simple point... not all women are the same.
I also agree with almost everything else you said! (It's nice not to feel so alone anymore!).
I also agree with almost everything else you said! (It's nice not to feel so alone anymore!).
@Shinta
On part I:
I don't think you understand how to analyze whether something is sexist. You seem to be analyzing these things at face value, in a fatalist way. Again, I don't wanna go into Bayonetta, but let's take that DoA character. This character didn't just appear out of thin air. It was created by a design team. Actually, the whole idea for the series was concieved by Tomonobu Itagaki, a person with a penis. Most likely a man, considering his ideals. And the objectification in this game was purposely done to attract attention from consumers in hopes of selling more copies. This objectification was a tool.
The characters in DoA are not a form of women's sexual expression; they're the expression of a man's sexual fantasies. Which manifests itself in characters that otherwise have no real characteristics. These types of objectifications perpetuate themselves and affects the way society views women and feminity, sometimes subtly and other times not so subtly.
On the other hand, Stefani Germanotta is a person. She is free to express herself in whichever way she sees fit, as long as her actions don't negatively affect other people or groups (i.e. the way she attempts to exploit the LGBTQ community). Now, I don't wanna go into her case either, but rather just point out the difference between a person and a video game character.
I don't know who you've been talking to, but finding sexism in games is definitely not about "looking for sex". Again, take a step back. You yourself said the gaming industry is very predominantly male. Another fact; in video games, female characters are predominantly sexualized, as opposed to male characters (and are also very much smaller in number). The correlation is not obvious?
The fact is, men are not entitled to women and their sexualities to use and "express" as they see fit.
Honestly, let's forget all of this for a second. Do you honestly not want more out of gaming? Out of media in general? Are you not tired of white protagonists? Of straight protagonists? Of male protagonists? Of all of those often jumbled together? Do you not want to see more perspectives?
Can we at least agree on that? Because there is a reason media is a space dominated by those characteristics...
On part II:
Solution: promote critical consumption of media. This is what Sarkeesian does. Solution: promote spaces for discussion. This is already happening. This is what this very comment thread is. This increases awareness. Media lives off of its consumers. If its consumers have higher standars, media will not thrive in irresponsibility as it does now.
1 and 2 are also good options; 2 is critical, as it is for any gender that is not men.
There are definitely solutions. That's why we're doing this.
Part III:
I just find this extremely naive.
"Believe it or not, no one really cares to exclude the other gender from an entire form of media."
Really? If anything, that's exactly what happens in gaming. That's exactly what the harassment and silencing campaign on Sarkeesian shows. That's exactly what the constant harassment and silencing of women (or anyone who is not male, a man, straight and white) in gaming culture and on the internet shows. And yes, there is criticism of other forms of media besides gaming as well. If anything, this happened before it happened to games. Sarkeesian herself does this.
The idea that women simply have been sitting on their asses instead of participating in gaming is naive as well. This ties in with what I just said; it is very clear a large part of the gaming community wants it to be a man's club. This community is at large not a tolerant or inclusive space. Shit, in the world in general, women still make less money than men. And POC make even less than them. Women still suffer sexual harassment. And yet you say we are somehow in a neutral space? That there's barely any other genders in gaming besides women simply because they have no interest in it?
Finally, I'm glad you didn't bring up "male perspectives and rights" or "how men are often characterized in negative ways by feminists". I really am.
On part I:
I don't think you understand how to analyze whether something is sexist. You seem to be analyzing these things at face value, in a fatalist way. Again, I don't wanna go into Bayonetta, but let's take that DoA character. This character didn't just appear out of thin air. It was created by a design team. Actually, the whole idea for the series was concieved by Tomonobu Itagaki, a person with a penis. Most likely a man, considering his ideals. And the objectification in this game was purposely done to attract attention from consumers in hopes of selling more copies. This objectification was a tool.
The characters in DoA are not a form of women's sexual expression; they're the expression of a man's sexual fantasies. Which manifests itself in characters that otherwise have no real characteristics. These types of objectifications perpetuate themselves and affects the way society views women and feminity, sometimes subtly and other times not so subtly.
On the other hand, Stefani Germanotta is a person. She is free to express herself in whichever way she sees fit, as long as her actions don't negatively affect other people or groups (i.e. the way she attempts to exploit the LGBTQ community). Now, I don't wanna go into her case either, but rather just point out the difference between a person and a video game character.
I don't know who you've been talking to, but finding sexism in games is definitely not about "looking for sex". Again, take a step back. You yourself said the gaming industry is very predominantly male. Another fact; in video games, female characters are predominantly sexualized, as opposed to male characters (and are also very much smaller in number). The correlation is not obvious?
The fact is, men are not entitled to women and their sexualities to use and "express" as they see fit.
Honestly, let's forget all of this for a second. Do you honestly not want more out of gaming? Out of media in general? Are you not tired of white protagonists? Of straight protagonists? Of male protagonists? Of all of those often jumbled together? Do you not want to see more perspectives?
Can we at least agree on that? Because there is a reason media is a space dominated by those characteristics...
On part II:
Solution: promote critical consumption of media. This is what Sarkeesian does. Solution: promote spaces for discussion. This is already happening. This is what this very comment thread is. This increases awareness. Media lives off of its consumers. If its consumers have higher standars, media will not thrive in irresponsibility as it does now.
1 and 2 are also good options; 2 is critical, as it is for any gender that is not men.
There are definitely solutions. That's why we're doing this.
Part III:
I just find this extremely naive.
"Believe it or not, no one really cares to exclude the other gender from an entire form of media."
Really? If anything, that's exactly what happens in gaming. That's exactly what the harassment and silencing campaign on Sarkeesian shows. That's exactly what the constant harassment and silencing of women (or anyone who is not male, a man, straight and white) in gaming culture and on the internet shows. And yes, there is criticism of other forms of media besides gaming as well. If anything, this happened before it happened to games. Sarkeesian herself does this.
The idea that women simply have been sitting on their asses instead of participating in gaming is naive as well. This ties in with what I just said; it is very clear a large part of the gaming community wants it to be a man's club. This community is at large not a tolerant or inclusive space. Shit, in the world in general, women still make less money than men. And POC make even less than them. Women still suffer sexual harassment. And yet you say we are somehow in a neutral space? That there's barely any other genders in gaming besides women simply because they have no interest in it?
Finally, I'm glad you didn't bring up "male perspectives and rights" or "how men are often characterized in negative ways by feminists". I really am.
@gyrael
implying that anyone would not want women (read: extra money) in gaming
his whole point there btw was that women where excluding themselves from gaming when it started
and that's why it caters to men more then to women these days
reading is not that hard
you're really just looking for strife man/women/person
implying that anyone would not want women (read: extra money) in gaming
his whole point there btw was that women where excluding themselves from gaming when it started
and that's why it caters to men more then to women these days
reading is not that hard
you're really just looking for strife man/women/person
Stooped Dtoid community being delightfully cordial while having well thought out opinions expressed eloquently that are level headed, fair, and genuinely thought provoking that makes me read a whole fuck-bunch and lack any finger pointing or vulgar name calling geared towards antagonizing total strangers even though they are safely veiled behind the anonymity blanket of the internet and wholly fuck this is still one sentence, also cocks.
@TheEvil1
There is no reason why women would "exclude themselves" from an activity like gaming unless gender roles pushed them away from it. And even then, I'm sure there were also women that played or at least were interested in video games. There are no inherent rules for how women -or any gender- acts or what interests they may have.
"Catering" to men doesn't give you freedom to be sexist. This "argument" has been repeated to death.
And you seem to have missed my reply to his third part in which he implied women are completely free of participating in the gaming world, which is clearly not true for the reasons I stated. I guess you've been living under a rock, since you don't seem to be aware of the attitude gamers and a lot of the internet has.
You seem very intent in proposing doing fuck all about all of these issues.
There is no reason why women would "exclude themselves" from an activity like gaming unless gender roles pushed them away from it. And even then, I'm sure there were also women that played or at least were interested in video games. There are no inherent rules for how women -or any gender- acts or what interests they may have.
"Catering" to men doesn't give you freedom to be sexist. This "argument" has been repeated to death.
And you seem to have missed my reply to his third part in which he implied women are completely free of participating in the gaming world, which is clearly not true for the reasons I stated. I guess you've been living under a rock, since you don't seem to be aware of the attitude gamers and a lot of the internet has.
You seem very intent in proposing doing fuck all about all of these issues.
@Gyreal... Did you know that romance novels were a $1.358 billion dollar business in 2010, making up 13.4% of the market - beating out the mystery and scifi/fantasy genres? Does anyone complain that romance novels are primarily written for and marketed to women? Did you know that for many romance novels (particularly Harlequin Romances) you actually have to conform to various tropes? Each different series has specific common themes, characterizations, and plot lines that have to be used. Part of the attraction to romance novels seems to be that they are comfortably predictable. The guideline for a standard Harlequin Romance reads " heroes are alpha but attainable – they're not all super rich international tycoons (although some might be!) but they're successful in their own right and should be a strong man our heroine would aspire to be with". I don't see anyone complaining about this. It's formulaic entertainment aimed at one specific gender which comprises the majority of the market - rather like video games. It's entertainment, largely created by women, for women. It's also entertainment that encourages a fantasy vision of men - you don't see alot of alcoholic, unemployed, fat, or submissive men in these novels.
These novels socially condition women to a role in society and encourage false and unrealistic expectations of what a relationship should be... yet the feminist protests are minimal at best. There's simply no press in it. They can write all the philosophical negative reasons why these books should be banned and the female consumers just shrug, ignore them, and continue buying and reading these books.
Did you know that men also write Harlequin Romances? The men that write (almost every single one of them) use a female pseudonym and generally hide their gender.
"men are not entitled to women and their sexualities to use and "express" as they see fit" - sorry, but my point is - yes they are. Women are also free to create sexualities of men as they see fit - in poetry, film... and romance novels. Women are also NOT the only ones to be able to create incredible female characters... Lizbeth Salander, one of the most complex female characters ever created in fiction is the work of... yes, a man.
Romance writing isn't likely to change anytime soon (though the tropes have broadened and there are now series that are more sexual or have mystery elements, etc) but video games on the other hand... yes, they are changing.... there is certainly more diversity in gaming than there is in romance writing. Women have gradually taken an interest in this form of media and work in the industry and play the games. In fact the MAJORITY of casual gamers are now female. Console games though - yes, the vast majority is still male (particularly on the PS3/360). However, even console gaming is gradually changing... and we are seeing much more variety in female characters and their presentation.
The thing is that Stephen has a point. The answer really is "stop". If people don't like a game for any reason (be it a racist or sexist portrayal) then people don't have to buy it. It's really very simple.
.... however to insist that other people shouldn't buy it or enjoy it because of deeper philosophical or political issues - that's very simply wrong. I do know a female gamer that absolutely loves Dead or Alive (google DoA and Yukino and you'll find her, I knew her from a previous site and she's a good gamer and writer!) - and it's not my place to deny her the pleasure of the game because I have personal reservations.
Video games are a market. What sells... sells. What doesn't sell... it dies.
These novels socially condition women to a role in society and encourage false and unrealistic expectations of what a relationship should be... yet the feminist protests are minimal at best. There's simply no press in it. They can write all the philosophical negative reasons why these books should be banned and the female consumers just shrug, ignore them, and continue buying and reading these books.
Did you know that men also write Harlequin Romances? The men that write (almost every single one of them) use a female pseudonym and generally hide their gender.
"men are not entitled to women and their sexualities to use and "express" as they see fit" - sorry, but my point is - yes they are. Women are also free to create sexualities of men as they see fit - in poetry, film... and romance novels. Women are also NOT the only ones to be able to create incredible female characters... Lizbeth Salander, one of the most complex female characters ever created in fiction is the work of... yes, a man.
Romance writing isn't likely to change anytime soon (though the tropes have broadened and there are now series that are more sexual or have mystery elements, etc) but video games on the other hand... yes, they are changing.... there is certainly more diversity in gaming than there is in romance writing. Women have gradually taken an interest in this form of media and work in the industry and play the games. In fact the MAJORITY of casual gamers are now female. Console games though - yes, the vast majority is still male (particularly on the PS3/360). However, even console gaming is gradually changing... and we are seeing much more variety in female characters and their presentation.
The thing is that Stephen has a point. The answer really is "stop". If people don't like a game for any reason (be it a racist or sexist portrayal) then people don't have to buy it. It's really very simple.
.... however to insist that other people shouldn't buy it or enjoy it because of deeper philosophical or political issues - that's very simply wrong. I do know a female gamer that absolutely loves Dead or Alive (google DoA and Yukino and you'll find her, I knew her from a previous site and she's a good gamer and writer!) - and it's not my place to deny her the pleasure of the game because I have personal reservations.
Video games are a market. What sells... sells. What doesn't sell... it dies.
@Elsa
I did not know romance novels were a $1.358 billion dollar industry in 2010, but I do not doubt it. The fact that there is not a lot of protest about how romance novels are primarily marketed to women is because romance novels are not the only genre in literature that contains romance. See, this is a false a equivalence: you are comparing a subdivision of literature (a genre) to gaming, an entire form of media. The idea of a genre appealing and marketing to its niche is not inherently bad. What's bad is when this is done problematically. Now, I'm not versed in harlequin romances, so I can't attest to how problematic they may or may not be, if at all. Again, they are not inherently bad, but clearly they will only appeal to a specific subset of people who are attracted to "strong men", according to your description (I'm sure there'll be a good size of examples of heteronormativity in these, as there are in most media, and yes, this would be problematic [guess what, most people are heteronormative]).
Now, this is just a genre. Literature is extremely vast. Different people can get satisfaction from a galore of different genres and authors. That said, social irresponsibility in literature is just as reprehensible as it is in any other medium. The reason, perhaps, you might percieve literature to not be as criticized as video games, is the difference in their maturity, and also probably the recent attention games have got. But we're dealing in ideals here, not in what people do or don't, or what they complain about or don't. Just because consumers shrug something off doesn't mean everything is alright. If anything, that is a bad sign, because if they're shrugging off something problematic they will perpeatue this problem.
I'm sure men write harlequin romances. You say they hide their gender: I'm gonna take this at face value (they could be trans*). If this is the case, I can tell you why they do. It is because it they would be shamed for being feminine. And they would be shamed for being feminime because of the... that's right.
Well, guess we're not gonna agree on that, but I think that the idea that men are entitled to women's sexuality is one of the bases of patriarchy and a terribly problematic one.
Women are not the only ones able to create good female characters, of course not. Joss Whedon, one my favorite artists, is the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which contains many excellent female characters. And Joss Whedon is a man, albeit a feminine one.
[TW: rape and violence]
As for your last paragraphs, I find your approach to be cold and pragmatic. You ignore social issues in favor of market currents. Again, consumption does not justify anything. This is a very removed idea that can usually only be carried by people with the privilege of not being affected by the problems a particular phenomenon creates. It is entirely possible that you have the luck to lead a life where your gender does not affect you negatively. But think of those that do, because they definitely exist. And I'm not just talking about women. Do you know the kind of abuse and harassment trans* people take? Or POC? Or people who do not exclusively like the sex they're supposed to? We're talking about exclusion, discrimination, and verbal and physical violence, going as far as them getting raped and murdered. And these things are fueled by media that damages their identity.
However, your way of thinking seems that of most people here. I have tried to show how removing oneself with these pragmatic approaches is problematic, but I'm pretty sure I've come as far as I can. So I'll just say one last important thing:
It is fine to like things that are problematic, as long as you recognize what's problematic about them. One of my favorite games, The Witcher, has pretty extreme objectification of women, going as far as rewarding you with portraits of naked women after you have sex with them, as a sort of collectible. But you have to realize that these things have a negative impact on society.
Anyway, thanks again to Phil for creating this space for discussion. It was good to talk with you all except TheEvil1, and I'm always interested in discussing other stuff, but I'm depleted in the thread we've been following.
I did not know romance novels were a $1.358 billion dollar industry in 2010, but I do not doubt it. The fact that there is not a lot of protest about how romance novels are primarily marketed to women is because romance novels are not the only genre in literature that contains romance. See, this is a false a equivalence: you are comparing a subdivision of literature (a genre) to gaming, an entire form of media. The idea of a genre appealing and marketing to its niche is not inherently bad. What's bad is when this is done problematically. Now, I'm not versed in harlequin romances, so I can't attest to how problematic they may or may not be, if at all. Again, they are not inherently bad, but clearly they will only appeal to a specific subset of people who are attracted to "strong men", according to your description (I'm sure there'll be a good size of examples of heteronormativity in these, as there are in most media, and yes, this would be problematic [guess what, most people are heteronormative]).
Now, this is just a genre. Literature is extremely vast. Different people can get satisfaction from a galore of different genres and authors. That said, social irresponsibility in literature is just as reprehensible as it is in any other medium. The reason, perhaps, you might percieve literature to not be as criticized as video games, is the difference in their maturity, and also probably the recent attention games have got. But we're dealing in ideals here, not in what people do or don't, or what they complain about or don't. Just because consumers shrug something off doesn't mean everything is alright. If anything, that is a bad sign, because if they're shrugging off something problematic they will perpeatue this problem.
I'm sure men write harlequin romances. You say they hide their gender: I'm gonna take this at face value (they could be trans*). If this is the case, I can tell you why they do. It is because it they would be shamed for being feminine. And they would be shamed for being feminime because of the... that's right.
Well, guess we're not gonna agree on that, but I think that the idea that men are entitled to women's sexuality is one of the bases of patriarchy and a terribly problematic one.
Women are not the only ones able to create good female characters, of course not. Joss Whedon, one my favorite artists, is the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which contains many excellent female characters. And Joss Whedon is a man, albeit a feminine one.
[TW: rape and violence]
As for your last paragraphs, I find your approach to be cold and pragmatic. You ignore social issues in favor of market currents. Again, consumption does not justify anything. This is a very removed idea that can usually only be carried by people with the privilege of not being affected by the problems a particular phenomenon creates. It is entirely possible that you have the luck to lead a life where your gender does not affect you negatively. But think of those that do, because they definitely exist. And I'm not just talking about women. Do you know the kind of abuse and harassment trans* people take? Or POC? Or people who do not exclusively like the sex they're supposed to? We're talking about exclusion, discrimination, and verbal and physical violence, going as far as them getting raped and murdered. And these things are fueled by media that damages their identity.
However, your way of thinking seems that of most people here. I have tried to show how removing oneself with these pragmatic approaches is problematic, but I'm pretty sure I've come as far as I can. So I'll just say one last important thing:
It is fine to like things that are problematic, as long as you recognize what's problematic about them. One of my favorite games, The Witcher, has pretty extreme objectification of women, going as far as rewarding you with portraits of naked women after you have sex with them, as a sort of collectible. But you have to realize that these things have a negative impact on society.
Anyway, thanks again to Phil for creating this space for discussion. It was good to talk with you all except TheEvil1, and I'm always interested in discussing other stuff, but I'm depleted in the thread we've been following.
@Gyrael... console gaming is a subdivision of the gaming industry. As noted, the majority consumer for casual games (according to various statistics) seems to be women.
... the reason men hide their gender is that they feel that women would not buy their books if they knew the books were written by a man (women can be quite sexist apparently).
I don't think I'm being cold... though possibly yes, pragmatic. What I'm saying is that the market often reflects our current cultural values - right or wrong. There will always be those that don't agree with past/current or even future cultural values, and that's their liberty, but it's only arrogant people that assume they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Regarding gay/trans people... yes, I actually do have an inkling of the troubles they endure. I'm often mistaken for one in online gaming and the abuse is often worst than when they realize I"m a female... but that being said, for every idiot heaping on the abuse, there are usually 5 or 6 strangers willing to stand up to the bully. I was also a recruiter in my career and dealt with many different people and the various situations that can arise. I actually did place a lovely woman going through the process of biologically changing into a woman into a government position... where I had to deal with many of the issues that can arise (including the simplicity of which bathroom she would use... she was still biologically a male, but dressed and acted as a female. In the end, it was decided she would use the ladies room).
That being said, it should be noted that I live in Canada where there seems to be a broader acceptance of people who are different.
My gender has never affected me negatively... never. It's really a matter of perspective. I feel that as a woman in our current culture I actually have more options than men. I could choose to primarily raise children I might have had (with or without a man), I can be in any profession I have the passion to pursue, I can do anything, be anything I want to be - if I have the drive (even our Canadian special forces units don't bar women). If I really wanted to make a game, I don't honestly feel that there is anything barring me from doing so.
Exclusion, discrimination... yes, those all exist. Everyone has something to overcome and overcoming those obstacles that stand in our way is part of life. I would just rather see people creating rather than trying to negatively criticize the creations of others... particularly from a socialogical, philosophical or political viewpoint. I just feel that creation of something positive will always outweight the negativity of trying to change other people to one's way of thinking.
Perspective... it's really all about perspective. Telling people they must change rarely works... creating something that they like that makes them want to change... much more effective. The success of games like Uncharted with fairly strong female characters... so much more effective than hating on games like DoA. Seeing, praising and supporting the positive - much more effective than the whining about the negative.
Joy is contagious... but so is misery.
... the reason men hide their gender is that they feel that women would not buy their books if they knew the books were written by a man (women can be quite sexist apparently).
I don't think I'm being cold... though possibly yes, pragmatic. What I'm saying is that the market often reflects our current cultural values - right or wrong. There will always be those that don't agree with past/current or even future cultural values, and that's their liberty, but it's only arrogant people that assume they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Regarding gay/trans people... yes, I actually do have an inkling of the troubles they endure. I'm often mistaken for one in online gaming and the abuse is often worst than when they realize I"m a female... but that being said, for every idiot heaping on the abuse, there are usually 5 or 6 strangers willing to stand up to the bully. I was also a recruiter in my career and dealt with many different people and the various situations that can arise. I actually did place a lovely woman going through the process of biologically changing into a woman into a government position... where I had to deal with many of the issues that can arise (including the simplicity of which bathroom she would use... she was still biologically a male, but dressed and acted as a female. In the end, it was decided she would use the ladies room).
That being said, it should be noted that I live in Canada where there seems to be a broader acceptance of people who are different.
My gender has never affected me negatively... never. It's really a matter of perspective. I feel that as a woman in our current culture I actually have more options than men. I could choose to primarily raise children I might have had (with or without a man), I can be in any profession I have the passion to pursue, I can do anything, be anything I want to be - if I have the drive (even our Canadian special forces units don't bar women). If I really wanted to make a game, I don't honestly feel that there is anything barring me from doing so.
Exclusion, discrimination... yes, those all exist. Everyone has something to overcome and overcoming those obstacles that stand in our way is part of life. I would just rather see people creating rather than trying to negatively criticize the creations of others... particularly from a socialogical, philosophical or political viewpoint. I just feel that creation of something positive will always outweight the negativity of trying to change other people to one's way of thinking.
Perspective... it's really all about perspective. Telling people they must change rarely works... creating something that they like that makes them want to change... much more effective. The success of games like Uncharted with fairly strong female characters... so much more effective than hating on games like DoA. Seeing, praising and supporting the positive - much more effective than the whining about the negative.
Joy is contagious... but so is misery.
"The thing is that Stephen has a point. The answer really is "stop". If people don't like a game for any reason (be it a racist or sexist portrayal) then people don't have to buy it. It's really very simple."
The problem with turning that solution around on those asking for better games is that "stop playing the bad games" is not much of a solution if we want to continue enjoying the hobby. If there really was a wealth of games that didn't suffer from sexist trappings in one form or another, if there was a huge variety of games I could always turn to instead of buying the next sexist big release, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
As it is, it's extremely difficult to find a game that isn't bloody stupid in this regard. That's not even talking about trends and extra cultural crap, only the games themselves. If I were to not buy or play games simply because I saw problems in how they handled the sexes, I would barely play games at all.
Unfortunately, the "if you don't like it, don't buy/play it, and stop complaining about it" solution utterly fails at changing the industry into a better environment. Rather than being inclusive, it pushes people away from the hobby altogether. If you'll excuse my language, it's a pisspoor way of dealing with a problem. Imagine you were playing a game online and someone harassed you; you speak up but they only respond "this is what online gaming is like, if you don't like it stop playing games online." What this attitude essentially says is "this is my environment, my hobby, stop trying to make it a better place for you."
And ultimately it's a question of which would be preferable: an accessible, welcoming, friendly hobby bustling with an incredible diversity of people, or a closed, antagonistic, elitist hobby available only to those who can stomach it.
As a final point, what sells may sell. That doesn't mean it's good and just.
The problem with turning that solution around on those asking for better games is that "stop playing the bad games" is not much of a solution if we want to continue enjoying the hobby. If there really was a wealth of games that didn't suffer from sexist trappings in one form or another, if there was a huge variety of games I could always turn to instead of buying the next sexist big release, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
As it is, it's extremely difficult to find a game that isn't bloody stupid in this regard. That's not even talking about trends and extra cultural crap, only the games themselves. If I were to not buy or play games simply because I saw problems in how they handled the sexes, I would barely play games at all.
Unfortunately, the "if you don't like it, don't buy/play it, and stop complaining about it" solution utterly fails at changing the industry into a better environment. Rather than being inclusive, it pushes people away from the hobby altogether. If you'll excuse my language, it's a pisspoor way of dealing with a problem. Imagine you were playing a game online and someone harassed you; you speak up but they only respond "this is what online gaming is like, if you don't like it stop playing games online." What this attitude essentially says is "this is my environment, my hobby, stop trying to make it a better place for you."
And ultimately it's a question of which would be preferable: an accessible, welcoming, friendly hobby bustling with an incredible diversity of people, or a closed, antagonistic, elitist hobby available only to those who can stomach it.
As a final point, what sells may sell. That doesn't mean it's good and just.
@Stephen... LOL! People love to complain, there's no stopping that! It's just that people can also create something positive... or write about what they love. It just seems more effective that bitching about something they hate (that others probably like).
Certainly a welcoming environment is important in gaming... but whining about it doesn't do much good. Speaking up is good. I'm probably not the best example because I can be quite overbearing and rude in online games... but it's rare for me to let online harassment slide. If someone is being unfairly harassed (even if it's just an uncalled for VTK) you know I'm often the first one to speak up. It's surprising how often it actually does work and people often apologize - not so much for something like a VTK - I'm usually next for that one, but they often do for racial slurs or homophobic language.
... and if all else fails... there's that wonderful gaming invention called a mute button. I'm pretty sure people have used it on me on more than one occasion! :)
Certainly a welcoming environment is important in gaming... but whining about it doesn't do much good. Speaking up is good. I'm probably not the best example because I can be quite overbearing and rude in online games... but it's rare for me to let online harassment slide. If someone is being unfairly harassed (even if it's just an uncalled for VTK) you know I'm often the first one to speak up. It's surprising how often it actually does work and people often apologize - not so much for something like a VTK - I'm usually next for that one, but they often do for racial slurs or homophobic language.
... and if all else fails... there's that wonderful gaming invention called a mute button. I'm pretty sure people have used it on me on more than one occasion! :)
Oh.. and often I'm the "harasser". Many of those abusive notes I've received (of the whore/bitch variety) end up being the result of me verbally calling somebody an asshole for moving my vehicle, not helping the team or driving us directly into a turret then leaving the vehicle (the taxi drivers). When I get those types of notes I usually send a note back asking what got their panties in a twist... most of the time it's because I've been "mean" to them.
I certainly don't mean to be... but in the heat of the moment, people just say things.. both genders. I still remember a heated argument I got into with another sniper who turned out to be another female. It's the first time I've been auto-kicked from a game for 5 teamkills... so women (not just myself) are equally capable of poor online behavior. :(
I certainly don't mean to be... but in the heat of the moment, people just say things.. both genders. I still remember a heated argument I got into with another sniper who turned out to be another female. It's the first time I've been auto-kicked from a game for 5 teamkills... so women (not just myself) are equally capable of poor online behavior. :(
That they are but it's worth returning to the study Alan Argentina cited in his first comment. Out of a study of almost 874 people (499 male and 356 female) these results were found:
Women were 4 times more likely than men to have experienced taunting and harassment.
Women were 7 times more likely for harassment experienced during a game to continue after the game has ended.
Women were 9 times more likely to feel unsafe as the result of harassment while playing a game.
Women were 3 times more likely to quit playing a game temporarily because of sexism. On that note, women were almost 4 times more likely to stop playing a game permanently because of harassment.
Women were 12 times more likely to have obscured their sex while gaming in order to avoid harassment.
You may be the outlier when it comes to harassment online but it's hard to deny that these statistics show a gross disparity between how the sexes' experience harassment when gaming online.
Women were 4 times more likely than men to have experienced taunting and harassment.
Women were 7 times more likely for harassment experienced during a game to continue after the game has ended.
Women were 9 times more likely to feel unsafe as the result of harassment while playing a game.
Women were 3 times more likely to quit playing a game temporarily because of sexism. On that note, women were almost 4 times more likely to stop playing a game permanently because of harassment.
Women were 12 times more likely to have obscured their sex while gaming in order to avoid harassment.
You may be the outlier when it comes to harassment online but it's hard to deny that these statistics show a gross disparity between how the sexes' experience harassment when gaming online.
