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Cool idea, Phil. Can I call you Phil? Phil is my middle name, so I feel like I kind of have ownership over it and shouldn't really even have to ask... but I like being respectful.
Anyway. Cool idea :)
Anyway. Cool idea :)
@Wrench: Ahaha. Did not even think about that. But no, not just Sarkeesian at least. More about the issues she and the stuff surrounding her have brought up.
Getting the word out will certaintly help, but quite frankly I feel that a HUGE shift in gamers will be needed, as it stands the market is just to gear toward males, I don't consider this a huge problem and quite frankly the trope thing swings both ways, but there's this subset of gamers who are all to eager to use the anonymity of the internet as a platform to be an asshole. Nobody would say that kinda shit to Anita to her face, and as the old saying goes, those who bitch will always bitch the loudest.
Funny thing is, had they simply ignored her this wouldn't be an issue. She most likely would have gotten her funding and that was that.
Funny thing is, had they simply ignored her this wouldn't be an issue. She most likely would have gotten her funding and that was that.
I'd like the concept/idea of perspectivism to be tackled, my dear sweet Phil. The same things that Sarkeesian thinks make women weak on the flip side may be things that make them seem strong. For example, Sarkeesian's Bayonetta video has her bashing the fact that Bayonetta "regains her strength by sucking on a lollipop," by claiming that it is overly-sexualized without much substance. My argument is that one could go a step further and see that exact action as an empowering action - it could display a sense of dominance, it could be a taunt, a bravado, etc. It could be many things and that's what I dislike about Sarkeesian's videos and it's something I would like to see discussed. The many different ways one may look at something. That's something that I would fund in a kickstarter - a project at the many different perspectives dealing with characters in video games. Some are happy about Kratos is character the typical badass, muscle clad, greek, god, warrior with a tough past, but on the flip side we have a character who is 'objectifying' men along with others like Chris Redfield, Dante from Devil May Cry, Marcus Fenix, etc. All men with muscles and killers, 'objectifying' men. Pointing out tropes doesn't make you a credible 'analyst'. Well, despite all that, I would like a multitude of perspectives addressed and for everyone to conclude with the idea that they're opinions and that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and have the power to form their own opinions. They needn't latch on to others (especially poorly supported ones like Sarkeesian's).
I read this over and it sucks, I apologize for the banter, but it's late and I life this idea and I rarely contribute, but I felt like doing it today. Ehhh, I need rest. I apologize for the verbal vomit, haha.
I read this over and it sucks, I apologize for the banter, but it's late and I life this idea and I rarely contribute, but I felt like doing it today. Ehhh, I need rest. I apologize for the verbal vomit, haha.
Some of the questions I would ask in a discussion are the following:
1. Has Sarkeesian solidified a new female gamer trope? We have the existing tropes of the Fragdollcompetitive gamer, the RPG/FF gamer, the "my boyfriend makes me game" gamer, the casual girl gamer, the attention whore/model... and has she now added the "feminazi" gamer to those tropes.
( I think it existed before, but it now seems more solidified as a recurrent theme/stereotype of female games.)
2. Has the Sarkeesian incident negatively affected how gamers might view a blog from a woman about a woman's issue in a game? Will it now be perceived as "one of those feminazi attention seeking blogs?
(There was always a touch of this attitude and while I often write from a female perspective on some issues, I actually feel more nervous about doing so because it seems such a negative hot button with gamers now.)
3. Aside from the money issue (which for many people IS the issue) is there not any value in having a video blog series on female game characters from a feminist viewpoint... particularly from someone who's not been previously involved much in gamer culture and is seeing this through the lens of simply another form of media? (somewhat of an outsider's perspective). Could this not be a conversation starter for the gaming community on what might be more positive female game characters? (image that she was just another community member/gamer who did this series for free)?
... or is this issue just done to death already?
those are some of the types of questions I would ask the community...
1. Has Sarkeesian solidified a new female gamer trope? We have the existing tropes of the Fragdollcompetitive gamer, the RPG/FF gamer, the "my boyfriend makes me game" gamer, the casual girl gamer, the attention whore/model... and has she now added the "feminazi" gamer to those tropes.
( I think it existed before, but it now seems more solidified as a recurrent theme/stereotype of female games.)
2. Has the Sarkeesian incident negatively affected how gamers might view a blog from a woman about a woman's issue in a game? Will it now be perceived as "one of those feminazi attention seeking blogs?
(There was always a touch of this attitude and while I often write from a female perspective on some issues, I actually feel more nervous about doing so because it seems such a negative hot button with gamers now.)
3. Aside from the money issue (which for many people IS the issue) is there not any value in having a video blog series on female game characters from a feminist viewpoint... particularly from someone who's not been previously involved much in gamer culture and is seeing this through the lens of simply another form of media? (somewhat of an outsider's perspective). Could this not be a conversation starter for the gaming community on what might be more positive female game characters? (image that she was just another community member/gamer who did this series for free)?
... or is this issue just done to death already?
those are some of the types of questions I would ask the community...
ouch... excuse the typos... first thing in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet. (last word of question 1 should be "gamers" not "games")
I think it is important to remember that these issues aren't exclusive of gaming culture, nor are the extremely divided responses. Look at how people "discuss" politics, religion, or even pop music on the Internet. People are aggressive and the first reaction to disagreement is to flail about screaming "YOU'REWRONGYOU'REWRONGYOU'REWRONGYOU'REWRONG!"
I would also be curious if video games actually have a more vocal representation of females than other nerdery. If you were to visit a comic book equivalent to Destructoid, would you have the same number of women posting?
To sum up, I think what we are seeing with the Anita issue is just a symptom of issues going on in the modern world as a whole, and while we can try to improve it, we still need to improve ourselves as a society first.
That's my two cents, at least. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to hear more.
I would also be curious if video games actually have a more vocal representation of females than other nerdery. If you were to visit a comic book equivalent to Destructoid, would you have the same number of women posting?
To sum up, I think what we are seeing with the Anita issue is just a symptom of issues going on in the modern world as a whole, and while we can try to improve it, we still need to improve ourselves as a society first.
That's my two cents, at least. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to hear more.
Honestly, I think the best thing we can ask is "would we get the same response if another person (man or woman) without the history people dig up on Sarkeesian get the same response as she has? The same vitriol in the same levels from ALL the same sources? I mean, I expect in the example of YouTube and Newgrounds, the answer is absolutely "yes" but these are the places known for their audience. Sadly, ccesarano is not the first person to point out the reaction of most, so I don't know the answer here. Basically, people have reached a point where being wrong is like a sin to them.... and they will fight to the verbal death: right or wrong.... and this may sound harsh, but from what I'm seeing, Ms. Sarkeesian may well fit that catagory too. I can think of no other reason she would give the weak examples she did on the interview here... or be willing to admit in one of her videos to stealing movies via torrent while whining about the ads she sees while doing it.
Just my thoughts.
Just my thoughts.
The only things I can really think of are the obvious things: Making sure plenty of different opinions are covered and getting all sorts of Dtoiders involved with varying degrees of involvement in the industry - from people who actually work in it to just regular gamers.
I feel like this issue has devolved into an argument over two extreme, both being reduced to just caricatures. I don't agree with Sarkeesian on some of what she says but I do think a debate over the cliches and tropes in games is a good thing. I think it's important that the fact there's a spectrum of views on the issues, and that holding one or the other doesn't necessarily make you sexist or potentially misandric.
Might be worth talking to Byronic Man and Aurain from the forums, as they both made good points in the forums about this and came from opposing sides of the issue, though admittedly the arguing did get a bit sharp.
I feel like this issue has devolved into an argument over two extreme, both being reduced to just caricatures. I don't agree with Sarkeesian on some of what she says but I do think a debate over the cliches and tropes in games is a good thing. I think it's important that the fact there's a spectrum of views on the issues, and that holding one or the other doesn't necessarily make you sexist or potentially misandric.
Might be worth talking to Byronic Man and Aurain from the forums, as they both made good points in the forums about this and came from opposing sides of the issue, though admittedly the arguing did get a bit sharp.
Thanks Panza (and everyone else too). I am reaching out to a lot of folks from all over the spectrum. It's not easy going through all the comments though. Sidenote @Panza: Isn't Byronic the interviewer of Anita?
Address the fact that you know... women are people (and gamers) too and deserve the realistic well-rounded representation that they're currently not getting. Also discuss the fact that it's impossible to rationally disagree with Sarkeesian's points considering she hasn't actually made her videos yet so there aren't any points to disagree with. And mention the fact that being a decent human being is not "white knighting". I don't blog on here, or at all really, but I'll probably write something about this whole fiasco because it's really disgusting and I'm committed to swinging anybody who's on the fence about being intolerant over to the right side. You can link to my post if you want to, when and if I actually write it.
I take that back, apparently she's started releasing videos already and I'm going to go right now and watch them, but that doesn't change the fact this whole thing started simply because a woman had an opinion. The issue for me is not whether or not she has a point, it's the way her points are being received. Which kinda proves that she does have a point.
Nevermind, I was right the first time, she just talked about Bayonetta in a video unrelated to this project. I'm going to stop spamming your comments now.
@Irishladdie
From my understanding, she was way off in her understanding of Bayonetta, which is what caused people to be upset that she was going to be turning towards analyzing video games.
I have never questioned her right to discuss sexism, in fact, I totally agree that sexism in gaming needs to be talked about. However, after seeing more about her positions, there are certain aspects she has touched on which lead me to wonder how she is defining sexism and more particularly, what constitutes a trope that only serves to demean women. As the videos release, I do find it fair to be able to question her positions without being called a misogynist, which is what so many have done so far.
Really the whole debate has been pretty toxic so far from both sides. When we are so quick to raise our fists in anger, we forget what we are fighting for. Anyway, I am personally glad that this debate will take place in the community here at D-toid.
From my understanding, she was way off in her understanding of Bayonetta, which is what caused people to be upset that she was going to be turning towards analyzing video games.
I have never questioned her right to discuss sexism, in fact, I totally agree that sexism in gaming needs to be talked about. However, after seeing more about her positions, there are certain aspects she has touched on which lead me to wonder how she is defining sexism and more particularly, what constitutes a trope that only serves to demean women. As the videos release, I do find it fair to be able to question her positions without being called a misogynist, which is what so many have done so far.
Really the whole debate has been pretty toxic so far from both sides. When we are so quick to raise our fists in anger, we forget what we are fighting for. Anyway, I am personally glad that this debate will take place in the community here at D-toid.
@JoeTheProYaKnow
I just watched that video and while I agree that she probably should have played the game before tackling its problems, anybody who claims Bayonetta isn't a absurdly fetishized sex object needs a reality check. I haven't played Bayonetta, and I would probably like it a lot since I love button mashers and camp, but there's no denying it's extremely problematic. Sure, Bayonetta is empowered, but her power comes from taking her clothes off. Clothes which look like a Dominatrix suit and are made of hair. You don't have to play the game to know that it's sexist, and even if it's not quite as sexist as it appears to be, the marketing played entirely on that aspect of the character, which is discussed in the video.
I don't necessarily think Anita Sarkeesian is on point in everything she calls out, but I admire that she's taking a zero tolerance policy to even minor cases of sexism like the busty nymphs in Rayman, which are still sexist because the big boobs on those characters don't add anything to the game but some big boobs to look at. The other problem is with perspective. I don't know what gender you are, but the majority of people taking issue with Sarkeesian's points, even in a reasonable way, are obviously men. Men don't get to define what is and isn't offensive to women. I don't think you're a misogynist, but bear in mind that if you are a man, your opinions on what constitutes misogyny don't really mean dick. Mine don't either. We're not women, and no matter how empathetic we may be, we can't and shouldn't try to speak for them on what causes offense. And trust me, as someone who considers myself strongly feminist, that was a hard lesson for me to learn. But as long as this discussion is among men, it's completely meaningless. So I guess, PhilK3nS3bb3n, the most important thing is to make sure that women's voices are included, and a wide variety of women's voices. I'm sure there are women who disagree with Anita Sarkeesian just as feverishly as any dude, and I'm much more interested in their reasons for disagreement than I am any guy's.
I just watched that video and while I agree that she probably should have played the game before tackling its problems, anybody who claims Bayonetta isn't a absurdly fetishized sex object needs a reality check. I haven't played Bayonetta, and I would probably like it a lot since I love button mashers and camp, but there's no denying it's extremely problematic. Sure, Bayonetta is empowered, but her power comes from taking her clothes off. Clothes which look like a Dominatrix suit and are made of hair. You don't have to play the game to know that it's sexist, and even if it's not quite as sexist as it appears to be, the marketing played entirely on that aspect of the character, which is discussed in the video.
I don't necessarily think Anita Sarkeesian is on point in everything she calls out, but I admire that she's taking a zero tolerance policy to even minor cases of sexism like the busty nymphs in Rayman, which are still sexist because the big boobs on those characters don't add anything to the game but some big boobs to look at. The other problem is with perspective. I don't know what gender you are, but the majority of people taking issue with Sarkeesian's points, even in a reasonable way, are obviously men. Men don't get to define what is and isn't offensive to women. I don't think you're a misogynist, but bear in mind that if you are a man, your opinions on what constitutes misogyny don't really mean dick. Mine don't either. We're not women, and no matter how empathetic we may be, we can't and shouldn't try to speak for them on what causes offense. And trust me, as someone who considers myself strongly feminist, that was a hard lesson for me to learn. But as long as this discussion is among men, it's completely meaningless. So I guess, PhilK3nS3bb3n, the most important thing is to make sure that women's voices are included, and a wide variety of women's voices. I'm sure there are women who disagree with Anita Sarkeesian just as feverishly as any dude, and I'm much more interested in their reasons for disagreement than I am any guy's.
Wasn't Bayonetta created by a female dev, and intended as a symbol of feminine empowerment? Seems weird and ironic to me, how people keep trying to point to it as an example of sexism. When I played the game she didn't seem sexy at all. My take was that she was really just a little girl playing a character.
Irishladdie: I actually don't think Bayonetta being hyper-sexualized is problematic. I thought Bayonetta was hilarious and pretty fabulous, but I can see where some may have had a problem, especially if they didn't play the game all the way through. The whole time I played it, however, I thought it was pretty obvious a lot of it is done for humorous effect, even parody. The woman has to walk noticeably bent backwards because of her breasts, just one of the many over the top things in the game that I thought made it pretty clear it wasn't to be taken seriously. I don't think Bayonetta would have been anywhere near as fun or entertaining if she was less, well, Bayonetta. Sassy, incredibly confident, and exceptionally comfortable with her sexuality. I'm ok with that.
Also, and this is more to the community at large now, WHY is it sexist to have big boobs on characters? This is an issue that has fascinated me for a while. I guess I can understand when it's the watermelon boob proportions or something, but just big boobs in general? Why? For instance, I remember a blogger on another site once complained that all the boobs in a character creator were too big for her character's personality, which struck me as a weird thing to say. I'm definitely interested in any community thoughts on that one.
But, irishladdie, I do absolutely agree that we need a wide variety of voices out there. I don't agree with most of what Anita Sarkeesian is saying, and I've been pretty alarmed at all the stuff she gets wrong that she throws out as fact, but it's good her voice is out there. As long as other women with differing opinions have their voices heard, too, without being dismissed as male apologists, misogynists, or, my personal favorite, women desperately seeking the approval of males. Unfortunately, I've had a lot of experience with the latter points.
Also, and this is more to the community at large now, WHY is it sexist to have big boobs on characters? This is an issue that has fascinated me for a while. I guess I can understand when it's the watermelon boob proportions or something, but just big boobs in general? Why? For instance, I remember a blogger on another site once complained that all the boobs in a character creator were too big for her character's personality, which struck me as a weird thing to say. I'm definitely interested in any community thoughts on that one.
But, irishladdie, I do absolutely agree that we need a wide variety of voices out there. I don't agree with most of what Anita Sarkeesian is saying, and I've been pretty alarmed at all the stuff she gets wrong that she throws out as fact, but it's good her voice is out there. As long as other women with differing opinions have their voices heard, too, without being dismissed as male apologists, misogynists, or, my personal favorite, women desperately seeking the approval of males. Unfortunately, I've had a lot of experience with the latter points.
Also, another thing I've been wondering about. Is it sexist of me to think Anita Sarkeesian is really hot?
@Irishladdie:
1) Zero tolerance is NEVER a good idea. To use examples I see around me, when a child can risk suspention from school over "use of a weapon" because he dared play with a chicken finger he got at lunch (didnt even bring in) like a toy gun with a friend, there is a problem. And that is zero tolerance, in a nutshell. It removes the involvement of the brain and thinking about what the proper response is. Thought is good. Kneejerk is bad. Sorry, that's life.
2) Sarkeesian has already made her views and quality of work known in other videos she has done. THIS is where she can be analyzed so far... and so far it's pretty piss poor. Im sorry, but I personally give my stamp of dissapproval if you are so driven by your view that you are willing to admit to theft/piracy on video to prove your point. And she has done just that, basically complaining that torrent sites "where the free movies are" have nothing but porn ads. Excuse me, but before we even consider the ads, what the FUCK do you think you are doing basically whining to the world how sexist an illegal activity is? Seriously, it makes her sound stupid and/or entitled... not a personality I will ever take seriously.
3) Sexism goes both ways... and so does understanding. If you ignore male perspectives or just push them away as unimportant, you do nothing good, because no one will listen if they get excluded from the conversation because of what's between their legs... male or female. I'd suggest your friends listen to that nugget as well.
1) Zero tolerance is NEVER a good idea. To use examples I see around me, when a child can risk suspention from school over "use of a weapon" because he dared play with a chicken finger he got at lunch (didnt even bring in) like a toy gun with a friend, there is a problem. And that is zero tolerance, in a nutshell. It removes the involvement of the brain and thinking about what the proper response is. Thought is good. Kneejerk is bad. Sorry, that's life.
2) Sarkeesian has already made her views and quality of work known in other videos she has done. THIS is where she can be analyzed so far... and so far it's pretty piss poor. Im sorry, but I personally give my stamp of dissapproval if you are so driven by your view that you are willing to admit to theft/piracy on video to prove your point. And she has done just that, basically complaining that torrent sites "where the free movies are" have nothing but porn ads. Excuse me, but before we even consider the ads, what the FUCK do you think you are doing basically whining to the world how sexist an illegal activity is? Seriously, it makes her sound stupid and/or entitled... not a personality I will ever take seriously.
3) Sexism goes both ways... and so does understanding. If you ignore male perspectives or just push them away as unimportant, you do nothing good, because no one will listen if they get excluded from the conversation because of what's between their legs... male or female. I'd suggest your friends listen to that nugget as well.
Hey everybody. I'm currently still reading through comments and messaging more people to try to get a balanced discussion. I want all sides and views involved, I don't think it'd be a worthwhile talk otherwise. I'll be compiling all your suggestions and thoughts and spitting this out in the next week. I'm so glad got so many responses already, but I'd belying if I didn't admit to being a bit overwhelmed. There is much more to do and go through than I thought. I feel this will be worth it though. Thanks again everyone.
@irish: Getting more female gamers involved isone of my main concerns right now. Pretty fucking pointless without them.
@irish: Getting more female gamers involved isone of my main concerns right now. Pretty fucking pointless without them.
Ask me anything, but I want to plug Bonerquest at every opportunity. I like being involved with things, and plugging the Bonerquest at every opportunity.
@SirLegandhead @molamolacolacake I understand that Bayonetta was intended as parody, just like Juliet Starling, but I think Jim said in either one of the Jimquisitions or Podtoids that just because something is done ironically doesn't mean someone isn't jerking off to it somewhere. If you listen to some Konami devs talk about the game, it's clear they're not totally in on the joke. And if you watch Sarkeesian's video, the main thing she's complaining about is the ad campaign, which was totally irony-free, and one particular ad in a Japanese subway station encouraged passers by to undress a giant picture of Bayonetta, which is really fucked up in light of the epidemic levels of groping that take place on Japanese subways. And finally, maybe Sarkeesian doesn't think the joke is funny? Bayonetta may be a parody, but there are plenty of deadly serious female characters in games who don't come off all that differently. And don't misunderstand me, I never said that I personally had any problem with Bayonetta, it looks really fun, and I DO get the joke. I just think it should be pretty obvious why a radical feminist would have a problem with her. And I think the satire would be more effective if characters like Bayonetta didn't already make up the majority of female video game heroines.
And there's nothing wrong with big boobs. I love big boobs, but they do seem kind of out of place in a Rayman game, especially since those characters looked nothing like that in the originals. You could also argue that women with giant breasts and no support wouldn't be doing the ridiculous acrobatics video game characters do in real life. Giant boobs are great, but combined with the frames we see in video games, they would just cause back pain. Sure, it's fantasy, but I know a lot of dudes think that's actually how boobs work. Again, I can't speak for women on this, but I think that's why it's considered problematic, because it promotes an unrealistic standard for women's bodies.
@Megabyte
1) Zero tolerance isn't always a good idea, but it's pretty much the only way to make sure you're not a hypocrite if you're trying to tackle a real problem. I went to an elementary school that did things like that and it was bullshit, I'm not trying to defend them. I think it's a bid ridiculous to try and reduce my argument using that comparison. If something makes Sarkeesian uncomfortable, it makes her uncomfortable, and she has a right to express that. The difference between her and a totalitarian school official is that Sarkeesian has no authority. She's just expressing her opinions, nobody has to change their behavior because of what she's pointing out. If Sarkeesian was a member of the ESRB or something, then those situations would be comparable, but right now she's just trying to get her voice out there and she's being shamed and silenced.
2)She's had some dumb videos, I agree. But I already stated the issue is not her arguments. The issue is why it's such a fucking problem that a woman should have these kinds of opinions about video games. The issue is that she's getting rape threats. The issue is that there's a flash game out there now where you can beat her face in. Her particular views might not be the most sound on every topic, but for the most part she is spot on. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI does not give an accurate or fair portrayal of her videos. It picks out 2 or 3 holes in her logic over her entire series of videos, reduces her to a strawman, and makes personal attacks. If this was an actual moderated debate, the guy who made that would be kicked out. I don't think everyone criticizing her views is a sexist, but I've yet to see many people doing so in the fairly polite way she's attempting to criticize gamer culture. It always devolves into personal attacks, and until you can separate Sarkeesian's arguments from what you think of Sarkeesian, the person, you're part of the problem.
3) Oh please. As if the majority of the voices talking about this weren't already male. If male perspectives make up 90% of the opinions on a topic despite the fact that we're only 49% of the world's population, then there's a fucking problem. Especially if that topic is "what constitutes misogyny". A male opinion of what constitutes misogyny is fucking meaningless, just like a white person's opinion on what constitutes racism against minorities, or a straight person's opinion on what constitutes homophobia. As men, we don't get to decide what is and isn't okay to think or say with regards to women. Women are clearly pretty powerless to keep us from thinking or saying it, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of it is sexist. Sarkeesian is not trying to silence you or make you stop doing anything, she's just trying to express her opinion. My question is that even if she were the moron you seem to think she is, why does that bother you so much? If she's a moron, can't you just ignore her? Again, the issue is not Sarkeesian, it's why everyone seems to think Sarkeesian is such a problem.
And there's nothing wrong with big boobs. I love big boobs, but they do seem kind of out of place in a Rayman game, especially since those characters looked nothing like that in the originals. You could also argue that women with giant breasts and no support wouldn't be doing the ridiculous acrobatics video game characters do in real life. Giant boobs are great, but combined with the frames we see in video games, they would just cause back pain. Sure, it's fantasy, but I know a lot of dudes think that's actually how boobs work. Again, I can't speak for women on this, but I think that's why it's considered problematic, because it promotes an unrealistic standard for women's bodies.
@Megabyte
1) Zero tolerance isn't always a good idea, but it's pretty much the only way to make sure you're not a hypocrite if you're trying to tackle a real problem. I went to an elementary school that did things like that and it was bullshit, I'm not trying to defend them. I think it's a bid ridiculous to try and reduce my argument using that comparison. If something makes Sarkeesian uncomfortable, it makes her uncomfortable, and she has a right to express that. The difference between her and a totalitarian school official is that Sarkeesian has no authority. She's just expressing her opinions, nobody has to change their behavior because of what she's pointing out. If Sarkeesian was a member of the ESRB or something, then those situations would be comparable, but right now she's just trying to get her voice out there and she's being shamed and silenced.
2)She's had some dumb videos, I agree. But I already stated the issue is not her arguments. The issue is why it's such a fucking problem that a woman should have these kinds of opinions about video games. The issue is that she's getting rape threats. The issue is that there's a flash game out there now where you can beat her face in. Her particular views might not be the most sound on every topic, but for the most part she is spot on. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI does not give an accurate or fair portrayal of her videos. It picks out 2 or 3 holes in her logic over her entire series of videos, reduces her to a strawman, and makes personal attacks. If this was an actual moderated debate, the guy who made that would be kicked out. I don't think everyone criticizing her views is a sexist, but I've yet to see many people doing so in the fairly polite way she's attempting to criticize gamer culture. It always devolves into personal attacks, and until you can separate Sarkeesian's arguments from what you think of Sarkeesian, the person, you're part of the problem.
3) Oh please. As if the majority of the voices talking about this weren't already male. If male perspectives make up 90% of the opinions on a topic despite the fact that we're only 49% of the world's population, then there's a fucking problem. Especially if that topic is "what constitutes misogyny". A male opinion of what constitutes misogyny is fucking meaningless, just like a white person's opinion on what constitutes racism against minorities, or a straight person's opinion on what constitutes homophobia. As men, we don't get to decide what is and isn't okay to think or say with regards to women. Women are clearly pretty powerless to keep us from thinking or saying it, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of it is sexist. Sarkeesian is not trying to silence you or make you stop doing anything, she's just trying to express her opinion. My question is that even if she were the moron you seem to think she is, why does that bother you so much? If she's a moron, can't you just ignore her? Again, the issue is not Sarkeesian, it's why everyone seems to think Sarkeesian is such a problem.
@IrishLaddie
1) I must kindly disagree on both counts. Zero Tolernace is nothing more then a way to be absolute and therefore remove thought and thoughtfulness from the equasion and you brought up the idea as somethign to admire... it was already reduced. I just gave you a real world example of it's reduction.
2) Excuse me, but no. you did NOT mention that "game." You basically admired her view, which I am calling out as dumb. There is no other way to describe a view that is so overly charged that you, again, are compelled to put on video that you are downloading movies (aka pirating) while bitching about the ads... you know, despite it being an illegal act to begin with. I do not think she (not women, THIS ONE PERSON) can begin to show enough thoughtfulness to add anything worth anything to any conversation on sexism.
3) OH please yourself. You said the views guys have mean nothing in this. Im calling that complete bullshit since really to reach the best result, you really can't exclude anyone who hasn't shown themselves as unreasonable (like telling the world they break the law to show how they encountered sexism while breaking it).
1) I must kindly disagree on both counts. Zero Tolernace is nothing more then a way to be absolute and therefore remove thought and thoughtfulness from the equasion and you brought up the idea as somethign to admire... it was already reduced. I just gave you a real world example of it's reduction.
2) Excuse me, but no. you did NOT mention that "game." You basically admired her view, which I am calling out as dumb. There is no other way to describe a view that is so overly charged that you, again, are compelled to put on video that you are downloading movies (aka pirating) while bitching about the ads... you know, despite it being an illegal act to begin with. I do not think she (not women, THIS ONE PERSON) can begin to show enough thoughtfulness to add anything worth anything to any conversation on sexism.
3) OH please yourself. You said the views guys have mean nothing in this. Im calling that complete bullshit since really to reach the best result, you really can't exclude anyone who hasn't shown themselves as unreasonable (like telling the world they break the law to show how they encountered sexism while breaking it).
@ irish -
Uh, no, I didn't mean to write Bayonetta off as parody. I saw it as a Japanese woman's attempt to reconnect with her inner child. Which, I know that sounds weird as hell, but that's how I saw it. And in that context, it seems a cruel disservice to shoehorn such a personal journey into a trendy conversation about unrelated social issues.
Uh, no, I didn't mean to write Bayonetta off as parody. I saw it as a Japanese woman's attempt to reconnect with her inner child. Which, I know that sounds weird as hell, but that's how I saw it. And in that context, it seems a cruel disservice to shoehorn such a personal journey into a trendy conversation about unrelated social issues.
