No, I don't think there will ever be an effective "moral choice system" that is reasonable by any means. I don't agree that developers should instantly abandon trying, since giving up isn't a better solution, regardless of how hard the problem seems to be. I wished they would try harder, but I doubt that would happen anytime soon. Although if you're right about Heavy Rain, then I'll be gladly wrong.
If this comment reads wrong, its because its the last thing I did before going to bed. :)
That Tenpenney situation, though, always seems to lead to that particular end. I believe you're rewarded positive karma for succeeding in the diplomatic option of convincing Tenpenny to open his tower. However, the situation, to put it short, doesn't have the most karmicly positive of epilouges. I think the admonishment there is the deliberate nature of the path to bloodshed.
I'm more interested, in general, in faction over morality (see WoW, Way of the Samurai). If we're judging character, I think the consideration of how your actions effect a group or an individual says something more tangible about the nature of your actions.
That Tenpenney situation, though, always seems to lead to that particular end. I believe you're rewarded positive karma for succeeding in the diplomatic option of convincing Tenpenny to open his tower. However, the situation, to put it short, doesn't have the most karmicly positive of epilouges. I think the admonishment there is the deliberate nature of the path to bloodshed.
I'm more interested, in general, in faction over morality (see WoW, Way of the Samurai). If we're judging character, I think the consideration of how your actions effect a group or an individual says something more tangible about the nature of your actions.
You even brought up the games "Fable II" "inFamous" and "Fallout 3" in a morale discussion? Blasphemy! Murdering an innocent then giving a homeless guy water=neutral on a simple sliding bar?
Anyway, look no further than The Witcher, for PC. I think it gives you an astounding look at questionable morals, and what the "right thing" is, similar to your torture metaphor.
"Surely that is a proper moral choice? Judging the outcome of the situation within the realms of an in game law would present you with a real moral choice, not just a "Yes/No" box that is used either subtley or bluntly in todays games with "Moral Choices"."
Play The Witcher. I think you'd enjoy it.
Anyway, look no further than The Witcher, for PC. I think it gives you an astounding look at questionable morals, and what the "right thing" is, similar to your torture metaphor.
"Surely that is a proper moral choice? Judging the outcome of the situation within the realms of an in game law would present you with a real moral choice, not just a "Yes/No" box that is used either subtley or bluntly in todays games with "Moral Choices"."
Play The Witcher. I think you'd enjoy it.
I've often thought about how the good/evil concept could be put into a video game without the game becoming defined by it. Because the good and evil a situation is all relative to the situation in itself and irrelated to the main focus of the game. Like, does killing a man who is trying to stop you from saving the world (because hypothetically, he is a police man, and it's his job) make you evil? On one hand, you did kill him, murder yes. But on the other, had you been detained, or killed, then all the world would perish. I Think all this goes beyond video games to life itself, and looking for answers man will never find.
I do love your blog though. Written very well. Good luck with becoming a writer.
I do love your blog though. Written very well. Good luck with becoming a writer.
Yeah, hence why I hated fo3's morality. Oblivion did it better, fame and infamy. Not good or evil, but how people who have heard of your deeds think of you. Killing tenpenny would be seen by many as a bad thing, but the game shouldn't call you evil for it, that's just silly.
Much like the reason Military Simulators will never be realistic, Moral Choices in computer games do not have the same consequences that happen in real life.
If I choose to murder a civilian in inFamous, Nothing happens, maybe one or 2 exp loss.
If I murder someone in real life, I go to jail for life.
Like in Military Simulators like OFP.
If I get shot in the head in OFP, I respawn, or restart the level.
If I get shot in the head in real life, I die.
Computer Games cannot and will never be able to portray the consequences from certain real life actions in computer games, and thats why "Morality" and "Realism" in games are never going to be fully realised.
Theres also the issue of Evil ALWAYS being cooler than Good.
If I choose to murder a civilian in inFamous, Nothing happens, maybe one or 2 exp loss.
If I murder someone in real life, I go to jail for life.
Like in Military Simulators like OFP.
If I get shot in the head in OFP, I respawn, or restart the level.
If I get shot in the head in real life, I die.
Computer Games cannot and will never be able to portray the consequences from certain real life actions in computer games, and thats why "Morality" and "Realism" in games are never going to be fully realised.
Theres also the issue of Evil ALWAYS being cooler than Good.
Depends what evil you're going for though. Sadistic shit is lame while just being a dick can be quite fun.
"Of course we don't have the technology yet to create such a broad morality system that could efficiently judge moral situation and we probably never will. Even if we create an AI so powerful it takes on human thought and logic then morality will be judged due to that AI's personality type."
This is a huge problem with non-programmer types. "AI" is a far too generous term for a gigantic "IF/THEN/ELSE" or "CASE" statement.
The depth of the morality tree system can be done today, the question is: is it worth it to invest the time/money in creating the assets (graphical, voice, etc) to support the large amounts of scenarios? Or will people simply not care that there isn't "enough morality options" and just play what is given to them?
This is a huge problem with non-programmer types. "AI" is a far too generous term for a gigantic "IF/THEN/ELSE" or "CASE" statement.
The depth of the morality tree system can be done today, the question is: is it worth it to invest the time/money in creating the assets (graphical, voice, etc) to support the large amounts of scenarios? Or will people simply not care that there isn't "enough morality options" and just play what is given to them?
I don't know that they could ever come up with a game system regarding morality because morality is not only individual (based on culture, religion and other factors), but it is also constantly changing. Morality systems in real life tend to be reflected in legal systems... and this is possibly why they use general legal principles to reflect morality in games.
Interesting read!
Interesting read!
Really good read. I don't think we'll see a true morality system as people have mentioned since a moral choice can be interpreted differently by different people. Is mercy killing really moral if you are effectively ending someone's life prematurely? Such things can be debated to the death without ever being resolved.
As for moral choices in games I think it's a step in the right direction that gamers are slowly being introduced to options that aren't always so obvious. As Magnalon mentioned, The Witcher is a great game where you have to make difficult choices and the answer isn't spelled out for you.
It's true that some options yield better rewards or results, but ultimately the decision is yours to make and if you can resist the temptation to compare the outcomes through walk-thrus it's highly satisfying.
As for moral choices in games I think it's a step in the right direction that gamers are slowly being introduced to options that aren't always so obvious. As Magnalon mentioned, The Witcher is a great game where you have to make difficult choices and the answer isn't spelled out for you.
It's true that some options yield better rewards or results, but ultimately the decision is yours to make and if you can resist the temptation to compare the outcomes through walk-thrus it's highly satisfying.
hmm yea interesting read. Like some people mentioned about, real life consequences of actions are very different from in game ones.
I think you are on to something though, it would be neat to see what a game developer could do with this kind of morality in play. The only thing is, that morality is relative. What is moral for you may not be a moral choice for me. Also, with video games, you are often put in "dangerous" and "extreme" situations...situations where your usual sense of morality might go out the window because it is just a disparate situation you are facing. I think people often find ways to justify their actions if it means life or death.
I think you are on to something though, it would be neat to see what a game developer could do with this kind of morality in play. The only thing is, that morality is relative. What is moral for you may not be a moral choice for me. Also, with video games, you are often put in "dangerous" and "extreme" situations...situations where your usual sense of morality might go out the window because it is just a disparate situation you are facing. I think people often find ways to justify their actions if it means life or death.
hilarious threads on the gold 45 revolver / ideas have consequences / moral premise technologies!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366448
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/author/DrElliotMcGucken/1169/
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3143589&pagenumber=7
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3173757
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366448
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/author/DrElliotMcGucken/1169/
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3143589&pagenumber=7
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3173757

surf dtoid with 

Rising (10+)
People you follow

send message
follow
followers


