WTF is Destructoid? Read this first!
Got news? email us
Follow
RSS
Contact
About Me
Alright, basic intro:
I was born in 1984, which means I grew up just a tad late to be an Atari front runner (still got one and played the shit outta it) but I did get to grow up with Nintendo. I've bought every Nintendo console on release day (Wii included, 32 hours outside of Wal-mart).
I'm a "hardcore gamer" but I detest the term and I won't fit into any damn mold! I LOVE retro games, and I think 90% of the shit on the game market right now isn't worth the time or money I'd have to spend to burn those shitty studios that make these games to the ground.
I hate the fact that the FPS genre has become so flooded it's hard to find anything good and not WWII, and I think the last good FPS was Half-life 2 (HL2+Source+Bioshock WTF PWN ALL).
I've been PC gaming since I was 3
Shit I've bought:
Nintendo - NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, N64, Game Boy Color, GB Advance (+SP), Virtual Boy (fun ass system imo), Gamecube, GB Micro (was a gift, I prolly wouldn't have bought one), DS, DS Lite, Wii.
Sony - Playstation, Playstation 2 (3 of em so far), PSone. Gonna buy a PS3 only if it's under $300, and a PSP when it's cheaper.
M$ - Winblows 3.1 up to Vista Ultimate (I bit the bullet and got Vista when I built my latest PC), Xbox. Gonna buy a 360 when the revamped 65nm version is down under $300.
The first computer I gamed on:
Name: IBM Personal Computer 5150
Processor: Intel 8088 @ 4.77 MHz (A beast!)
Memory: 64 KiB
Hard Drive: Ehhh... Nope.
Network card: Hehe... nope.
Keyboard: "Compared to the keyboards of other small computers, the IBM PC keyboard is the Rolls-Royce." Real quote from a review back in the day!
Monitor: 8" CGA graphic mode; 320 x 200 resolution.
My Current PC:
MB: ASUS P5N32-E NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI
Proc: Intel Quad Core Q6600
RAM: 4Gbs of Patriot Extreme Performance DDR2 800
VidCard: 2x (SLI'ed) EVGA 320-P2-N815-AR GeForce 8800GTS 320MB
My Backup Computer:
MB: MSI K8T Neo,
Proc: AMD64 2100+ w/ 1mb L2 Cache
RAM: 2Gb DDR 400
VidCard: Nvidia Geforce 7800 GS, 512 Mb
I was born in 1984, which means I grew up just a tad late to be an Atari front runner (still got one and played the shit outta it) but I did get to grow up with Nintendo. I've bought every Nintendo console on release day (Wii included, 32 hours outside of Wal-mart).
I'm a "hardcore gamer" but I detest the term and I won't fit into any damn mold! I LOVE retro games, and I think 90% of the shit on the game market right now isn't worth the time or money I'd have to spend to burn those shitty studios that make these games to the ground.
I hate the fact that the FPS genre has become so flooded it's hard to find anything good and not WWII, and I think the last good FPS was Half-life 2 (HL2+Source+Bioshock WTF PWN ALL).
I've been PC gaming since I was 3
Shit I've bought:
Nintendo - NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, N64, Game Boy Color, GB Advance (+SP), Virtual Boy (fun ass system imo), Gamecube, GB Micro (was a gift, I prolly wouldn't have bought one), DS, DS Lite, Wii.
Sony - Playstation, Playstation 2 (3 of em so far), PSone. Gonna buy a PS3 only if it's under $300, and a PSP when it's cheaper.
M$ - Winblows 3.1 up to Vista Ultimate (I bit the bullet and got Vista when I built my latest PC), Xbox. Gonna buy a 360 when the revamped 65nm version is down under $300.
The first computer I gamed on:
Name: IBM Personal Computer 5150
Processor: Intel 8088 @ 4.77 MHz (A beast!)
Memory: 64 KiB
Hard Drive: Ehhh... Nope.
Network card: Hehe... nope.
Keyboard: "Compared to the keyboards of other small computers, the IBM PC keyboard is the Rolls-Royce." Real quote from a review back in the day!
Monitor: 8" CGA graphic mode; 320 x 200 resolution.
My Current PC:
MB: ASUS P5N32-E NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI
Proc: Intel Quad Core Q6600
RAM: 4Gbs of Patriot Extreme Performance DDR2 800
VidCard: 2x (SLI'ed) EVGA 320-P2-N815-AR GeForce 8800GTS 320MB
My Backup Computer:
MB: MSI K8T Neo,
Proc: AMD64 2100+ w/ 1mb L2 Cache
RAM: 2Gb DDR 400
VidCard: Nvidia Geforce 7800 GS, 512 Mb
Gamer Profile
3DS friend code:
Steam:
Battle:
PSN:
Mii:
Gamertag: NyteShadeIT
Steam:
Battle:
PSN:
Mii:
Gamertag: NyteShadeIT
Following (7)
|
|
|
The reason is this, it looks like it's just the PS3 iteration of the engine that's having real problems... maybe this might have something to do with how notoriously hard the Cell processor is to program on. Don't even bother pulling the "fanboy" card, I'm a networking engineer (aka I run alot of cat5), but I know my share of programming.
Programming on multiple processors is ALOT more complicated than programing on one. Look at the Cell processor, it has eight Synergistic Processing Elements (sub processors) connected to one Power Processing Elements (main processor). The PPE/Main Processor can take basic tasks and split them up between the SPEs/sub processors. This is how it can run a 32-bit OS made for a single processor. The problem with this is that it's not any faster than a single processor in this mode, and sometimes even slower than a single processor equivalent depending on the situation (streaming media, etc...). So that means in order to tap the true potential of the PS3 you need to actually program the code into separate sections for each processor. Since Sony locked one Cell SPE for future development, and another is locked for the OS (WTF? Why?), developers have 6 SPEs to divide their code for. As many developers have said, Sony's SKUs havn't done shit for them (same with Wii, devs had to program in all the first gen Wii motions pickup and movement themselves). That means the developers have to program it in themselves, on a dual-core processor based game (Supreme Commander) they can just split off a couple of tasks to constantly use the second processor (AI and path-finding) and keep the main free for the rest of the code. To separate a game/engine into 6 equally handled sections of code that all make it back to the main processor is quite a challenge. The 360 is a bit better, relying on a more proven PowerPC processor design, the triple core Xenon. Most of the splitting programing has already been done and Microsoft had a wealth of PC programming to fall back on for the developers SKU, it's known as easy to program for. That also means that yes, the PS3 CAN STOMP the 360 if the games are designed very well, but so far there hasn't been one game that has even pushed the Cell processor a bit. Most likely what happened in this case is Epic couldn't get the engine up to "next gen" potential on the PS3 by the dates set in their contract. Since selling an engine implies that the basic design programming must be done, I'm assuming the chore of splitting the engines output for the Cell was on Epic's shoulders. While in the courts Epic will be to blame if they couldn't meet the deadlines, I gotta point my finger at Sony for bringing a new and unproven processor to the market. Then what's worse, putting the "weight of the world," (aka how to effectively program for the Cell) on the developer's shoulders. The problem lies in the Catch 22 that Sony has made for itself.... 1) In order to sell an expensive console, the PS3 must be shown to be "worth it" with some killer titles that blow away the 360. 2) In order to make titles that blow away the 360, developers need large audiences to sell said killer games too in order to make their money back. While MGS4 and KZ2 look REALLY GOOD!!!, they still don't look $600 dollar, 8 core Cell, bitchin' ass technology good, imho...
|
|
|
|
Post a comment! You can also post a photo below:
|
Comment with FacebookClick connect and comment instantly! |
Comment with Dtoid
New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds |
Comments policy
Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?
Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!
All editorial content, including blogs, comments, and forums written by our community, are protected by a
Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing requiring attribution.
Destructoid aka ModernMethod is an independently-run company forged by our childhood love of video games and adulthood hatred mainstream video game press.
Living the dream since March 16, 2006
Living the dream since March 16, 2006
but SK used UT3 engine for xbox360, not the PS3. Sony has nothing to do with the sue unless Too Human was coming to PS3 which it isn't (as far as I know).
If they were lied to or w/e by Epic then thats Epics fault. I'm not sure if UT3 engine is based on the PS3 architecture (you didn't specify this so im guessing that is not) but if it was, then SK were pretty dumb to use a engine thats based on the Cell for the 360.
Silicon Knights work is based all on 360 programming, so like you said, its simple programming compared to the PS3 yet SK is barely finishing the game, so someone is to blame, but it is not Sony.
So in a nice way, I think this thread phails D: good info dough~
p.s. I think MGS4, LBP, FF13, UT3, is worth getting the PS3, better to spend 150$ more than a xbox thats a defective product.
I wouldn't lay blame on the PS3 architecture, myself. The PS3 is pretty significantly different than a standard PC or the 360, but Sony provides software libraries to perform basic and repetitive functions and communicate at the hardware level.
Rather than all PS3 developers hiring their own staff to create efficient game engines for the PS3, many choose to let another company such as Epic do the heavy technical work.
By licensing a pre-made and presumably functional engine, you stand to save considerably on salary expense and time. You also don't have to work so directly with the hardware-level code unless you require optimizations to the engine or added features.
The complex PS3 architecture may truly be at the root of Epic's difficulty meeting their contract deadline for the PS3 version UE3 delivery, but what's their excuse then for the 360 version, which SK alleges was eight months late?
Lastly, referring to the Xbox 360 as a "defective product" is exceedingly juvenile and shortsighted.
You said "The 360 is a bit better, relying on a more proven PowerPC processor design". The PS3 STILL contains a PowerPC processor. Much like the 360's PPC970 based Xenon. Though, the Sony PPC Processor (PPU) is only a single core processor. They didn't feel the need to provide 2 extra cores (I wish they did) when they give you 6 extra units to do calculations. You cannot program the CELL like you a normal multi-core processor (I am a developer, I do have experience with this.). Normally you can just create a single program that forks off threads (lightweight processes). These threads run independently of eachother but have access to the same memory as the other threads, minus local stack. Bascially the name of the game is desiging the game systems to take advantage of multiple processors. The CELL on the other hand doesn't really do that.
Each SPU is a discrete unit and is not tied to the same memory pool or even ram as the other units. In order to access outside SPU cache you have to issue DMA commands to fetch memory, which is expensive in itself and should be used sparingly. It looks like the developer has to create full blown executables and load them with the correct data or setup some kind of protocol to keep feeding it the correct data outside of its memory pool. I believe the proper design was the use the CELL much like a general purpose stream processor, think of how your video card it acts on lots of pixels at the same. The CELL can apply that same methodlogy on generalized data. The only problem is you have to construct a solution to a problem that can be solved that way to see gain. That isn't to say you couldn't use the processor differently. And there's a mini lesson on the CELL processor.
Also quick note, most of the release problems are coming from the PS3 side of the UT engine, and EPIC specifies the PS3 version as being more defunct in meeting the requirements of the contract. It isn't just Too Human their suing over, it's the entire UT engine.
@ Anonuser Your correct to a degree, and I didn't get into the comparison between GPUs and CPUs cause I didn't want to make this post even longer, but here's where your a little off, and your right in saying the main CPU in the PS3 is a PowerPC, it is.
A GPU does have the equivalent of multi-cpus but they're called pixel pipelines. If you watch video card progression, each standard of pixel shader has upped the amount of pixel pipelines used.
So for these new pixel pipelines to be effective, the GPU manufacturer produces drivers that meet current DirectX/pixel shader guidelines for how data should be streamed through each pipeline.
The Cell is basically a dumbed down GPU, which is good, cause processors need to start the move towards where GPUs have already been. The problem is that Sony hasn't released the equivalent of a driver/standard (SKU). So what we see is instead of developers sending those small pieces of code to each core to speed things up, they just allow the main CPU to push the code out. That's where the problem lies, yes your right anonuser that they can just push standard streams to the main core and it will use all the sub-cores, but in order to see the true potential, developers need to completely relearn how to write their engines.
I digress it's not really Sony's fault per se, but they should have used a more standard processor configuration that had already had it's basic programming standards in place...
What it really comes down to is that without a specialized programming structure to make each core use it's full potential, your just going to keep seeing games that look the same on both 360 and PS3...