COMMUNITY RESPONSE
Let me start of by saying while I don't think Luc's conduct in the comments of the
Eternity's Child review was acceptable, I was very disappointed by the way the D-toid members acted in response. Let us all remember this was a very low budget, indie developed game, selling at a very small price point. There was no need to treat Luc the way he was treated. He disagreed with the reviewers and was very emotional when he did so, all of you would too if it was your baby.
While there is plenty of flaming and fanboy warring on D-toid, there are very few personal attacks, and that is why I love this place. I'm tired of the childishness that constantly fills other gaming site's comments (lookin at you Kotaku).
What I saw in the comments was almost on the level of most of the Xbox Live crowd. The "Fuck Off Luc's" that spewed out made me feel ashamed to be a active member of this site. Luc never cursed or disrespected the reviews, he just didn't agree with them. Plenty of our members have called D-toid reviewers unprofessional (and worse) over reviews scores, and didn't design the game, they just played it.
You would think some members had placed large bets against EC or co-authored the reviews the way they reacted in the comments. It's one thing to be proud of yourself for "calling" a crappy game, it another thing entirely to use the comments section or blogs to launch personal attacks on the developer because you feel entitled. I'm wondering if anyone commenting on Luc's reaction has ever developed anything with a small team and had it ripped to shreds in a review? Doubt it.
Luc released a game that he spent a large amount of time on that had a major flaw, within a day of release the flaw was patched and now fully fixed. How many multi-million dollar games have been released with big game breaking flaws? Plenty, lets give Luc a break.
I bought EC tonight after seeing it was patched already on Steam.
The jumping flaw is fully fixed, and in three levels so far I have never missed a jump due to the key not responding.
REVIEWERS
First of all, this game looks and moves much better than any run of the mill flash game, and I felt that was an underhanded comment when one of the best things about the game is the artwork and backgrounds. Lets also not forget that there is some beautiful flash animation out there, lol.
Second, after mainly naming the broken controls as the flaw that ruined the game for both reviewers multiple times...
"Let's talk about how the jump button only responds to your input about a third of the time, leading you to fall to your doom for no good reason. "
"Additionally, the jump button only works a third of the time."
"Roughly 66% of the times you hit the jump button, your character won't do anything."
"The problem is that it's difficult for the wrong reasons, most directly in terms of control."
Anthony and Conrad only put one reference to the patch, put it under a section about the game crashing, and then said it MAY fix the problems. Did Anthony or Conrad even try the patched game? Is it just better for laughs to not put somewhere on the review that the major flaw in the game has been fixed? The patch was released the same day as the review was posted...
Luc took his time and energy to get involved in our community, and I think the D-toid staff could at least return that time and energy to review the game with fixed controls, or at least add some insight into how much the patch fixes. The game I bought today doesn't deserve a 1 by any means, nor does it deserve the abuse that our community is heaping on it.
THE GAME
It's nothing special, but it's a decent side scroller that goes back to the roots and has some challenge to it. If you move while shooting and use the charge shot, you can clear though enemies quickly without shooting all their shots. The controls are working fine now, and it's easy to tell it was meant for mouse/keyboard and Wiimote. For the music and artwork alone, I think it's worth the price. If nothing else, it'll burn a few hours of your time.
You could spend $4.99 in a lot worse ways then supporting a developer who's just getting started...
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Yeah, turns out the majority of D-Toid users are total fuckwads.
Before everyone comes in here and starts flaming you for posting this, I would have to say I agree that both sides are handling this kind of poorly. Regardless of the score, there was no reason for everyone to be going at each other like they were. I'm hoping cooler heads will prevail, but I'm not exactly sure they will.
tl;dr
Also, I'm glad there's someone like Nihon who's so level-headed.
who the hell cares. Luc had blogs saying how he thought the game was shit then when someone else says its shit OOOOOOH NO! controversy.
Internet drama, a worthwhile cause!
I don't really care. I expected it to be bad, and it was. Its the internet and it will happen anywhere. Don't get me wrong, its not cool, but its also a very 2-sided argument. I can honestly see it both ways and there was excess outrage, but thats just people hopping on the bandwagon and it can't be taken too seriously.
Until there is a site where everyone knows each other personally, the internet will never be nice.
I do think they ripped into it pretty harshly, but a problem with the controls that bad SHOULD have been fixed from the start, it seemed that it was a huge problem that was impossible to overlook. If it honestly was patched that day, then that says a lot about the quality of the testing that was done on the game.
Natalie Dee.
Actually since the review came up alot of people have been writing to me saying WTF
hopefully all the fans that enjoyed EC are going to voice up
Thanks Mate :)
I'm with Nihon on this one. Having JUST READ the comments to the review, Luc didn't have the right to say what he did, which understandably caused an uproar from the Dtoid community.
Nontheless, Luc's reaction to the review is also understandable. He worked hard for something he cared for, and people aren't liking it. As I said previously, his words were NOT justified but it's simple to understand his irritation.
For those of you who can't relate to his position really need to get off your ass and live a little. You've never been putdown for doing something you worked really hard on? C'mon guys. Frankly, Luc blaming his programmer is rather appauling but nontheless, we all just have to chill the fuck out.
A game has to be reviewed in the moment.
Even games that come out and get patched from big companies, do get do-overs for their review. Reviews for the original Star Wars films aren't thrown out when George Lucas decides to change plot elements, or if a separate cut of the film is released.
The game that was released was flawed. The reviewers certainly didn't have to go back and update about the patch, but that shows that they cared enough to note that their review doesn't reflect that. But the thing is, a game shouldn't get to the point of being released, and still contain a major flaw like that.
I work in game software QA (For what ever that's worth in the context of what I'm saying) and if we shipped something like that to one of our QA customers, we failed.
You can put the blame in plenty of places for sure. Luc for not standing up for his work (or whatever kept him from stopping it), the coder shouldn't have put in broken code, the publisher should have realized the quality and stopped it from seeing submission, and STEAM should have called everyone out on it and told them to fix their game.
bad review copy is bad. If QA isn't part of your release process, I frankly think you deserve some level of flack for it.
Regarding the behavior of Destructoid community: it was bound to happen. Its Destructoid. We all have a certain level of respect for each other, but we also call each other on our own shortcomings. No More Reverence. Irreverence is presidente for life. Brutal honesty. That's kinda how this site rolls in general. 'specially, if the community at large (or at vocal minority) feels like it or its hosts are being attacked.
Welcome to the Wasp Nest.
gorram it . . . "*DON'T* get do overs"
@Tubatic
We don't have a publisher or a QA departement
There we go.
And for that (not having QA), man, I am sorry.
That's a hard knock to take, but I think you should consider adding a QA department for future endeavors.
Its kinda like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer built his dream car. He had no QA stopping him from making weak choices, and it slayed him. QA is way important (which I'm sure no one really has to tell you now)
Like I've said, btw, I'm looking forward to coming to my own opinion of the game on WiiWare.
@Tubatic - I don't think D-toid needs to re-review the game, I just think it's unfair to blatantly call the jumping controls into question so many times, and then not note that it was fixed in a patch.
The bold "Note Patch" says nothing about the fixed jumping controls, and is under a section about crashes. It's a very misleading note, and anyone reading the reviews alone would think that the jumping may still be broken...
It's one thing to be a bad/poor game, another to be broken.
@Luc - Ouch! Out of curiosity, how many beta testers could you scrape together? Maybe Steam needs to add beta testing to it's developer service? Do they have anything like that?
@Nyteshade
The reason I was so overprotective is that we did this game without a budget, with passion, it's kind of my baby.
We have been quite poor and spent time to make this game happen.
That's why I went overprotective on it, I'm not Lair, I'm not a big dev, we are small indie ones that do this without a budget, I would of been indifferent if we got paid everyday.
And yes we didn't find problems with the jumping but I guess Nick did so as soon as I found that out I made sure to get a patch ready before he reviewed it.
Also so people know, Mr Destructoid got in the game because I was asked in that interview remember? So I said yes, and that's why he was in there.
"What I saw in the comments was almost on the level of most of the Xbox Live crowd. The "Fuck Off Luc's" that spewed out made me feel ashamed to be a active member of this site."
Pretty much sums up exactly how it made me feel, too. I pretty much lost all respect/hope for the D-toid community once I started reading the comments.
I understand that its not easy to make a game and yeah it costs money to do everything. It was fixed, awedome, but can you honestly say that you couldn't have gotten at least 5 fans to help you test out the game?
Developers for mods have all kinds of tools designed for testing and content releases. I'm not blaming anybody, but there are ways to fix things like this. Hell, if you're ever working on a new game, i'd test for free. I do it for EA and Ubisoft anyway >.<
Other fine opportunities to have been dissappointed in D-Toid:
The GTAIV/PS3 contest ("who the %#@! is MeepJeep?")
The Early 1-to-10 review backlash
The N'Gai/RE5 curfuffle
The Deca Sports backlash
The era of hard hazing in c-blogs
The Vixen Affair
That's how we roll. Genetically different, baby.
I'm really glad I stayed out of all of this.
I had a huge comment complaining about this awesome community but I decided to delete because I don't want to stoop to their level. Also can't wait to try out the demo.
"Deca Sports minor whine-off"
Hmm?
Hmmm... I musta missed the Deca Sports one... was it any good? lol
Please keep in mind this game is 5 dollars! I felt it was nicely priced, most games indy games cost 10+ dollars. I enjoyed my self with the game. I really do not agree with the Dtoid review at all.
ok Deca Sports was probably just me and backpackguy, and I looked like an ass . . .
but aside from that one!
What'd I miss?!
I remember reading the article, the flamming was pretty bad. May shame's dark shadow loom over all the haters. Well that's all I have to say. Just know that the community has geeks, experts, husbands, wives, people of all origins, and also cocks. ( see what I did thar?)
I remember reading the article, the flamming was pretty bad. May shame's dark shadow loom over all the haters. Well that's all I have to say. Just know that the community has geeks, experts, husbands, wives, people of all origins, and also cocks. ( see what I did thar?)
well, ya know . . .
The comments were fairly civil to start on that review . . . then Luc responded in protest of the score/review, and called the staff unprofessional.
some members took offense to a slight against their robot masters . . .
sheeptoid/copyagreementoid occurred . . .
cue shitstorm cycle . . .
Everyone looks like jerks now.
Except for Reaprar, who's been no less civil than usual
For what that's worth . . .
Great post, very true, I felt bad for EVERYONE when I read the comments.
Destructoid, now is the time to redeem thyself!
I dunno. I was hopeful before the review.
After the review(s) and comment(s) I'm still I dunno. I guess not alot of expectation now... Maybe with the right controls programmed in it could be fun at least for awhile.
I'll see, maybe I'll be surprised after all (thinking positive as best as I can) since I still want to download the demo when it is available off Steam and give it a s***'s and grin's try anyway.
And.. Is it true there is no such thing as bad publicity Or, no press is the only bad press? Or, something? LOL
Well I gotta say its too bas EC got that spot on Steam, there's at LEAST a million other indie-games out there that all deserved that spot on Steam about 10 times more then EC... From what I've seen, our school would've failed that guy for his 'game design'course in an instant...
i'm pretty glad I didn't pay much attention to any of this (no disrespect to Luc.) i'm simply your lazy black 20 year old who plays games and reads whatever intrests him. Can't say EC did or did not intrest me. But wasn't like I was gonna avoid it once it hit.
I personally don't even think I want to see the nonsense that happened. but I thought we weren't going to be doing any "Gamespot" shit around here on reviews? If the game's gettin a 1/10 pre patch, that 1 better be for the fact about 90% of the game isn't playable over a jump glitch....which was fixed asap.
My question to Luc is that, if this is his baby, how could he release it in this form? How could he have let the animations be so lifeless? How could he have failed so horribly on the level design? How could he release it with a major jumping bug? (And don't give me the line about major games getting patches all the time, those are for minor issues, this was a problem with the core of the game.)
Whenever I set to work on writing something or doing a short film project, I intensely criticize everything I do. Chances are that, even if people I run things by enjoy it, I'm still not totally satisfied with what I do. I can always find some flaw in my work which I can try to fix, and even when it's "done," I can pick out a dozen more that people may or may not notice.
My point is that, as the creator of something, you know it better than anyone. You should know its strengths and weaknesses. If you care so much about this game, why did you release it with so many faults? I know deadlines often play a role, but everything but the still art and music sounds like it's so sloppy.
On the subject of the "fuck off" crowd (myself included): I know that it takes a lot of effort and love to make an indie game. I'm not against insulting that. What I am against is people passing the blame for their failures and insulting others to make themselves feel better, sucking on their thumb while they grab their blanky. If Luc is going to do that, he can seriously go fuck off, because after months of him writing horrible blogs with minuscule updates on his game and loads of whining about publishers and mainstream games, I'm done hearing about him.
Typing the same thing as other people? Nothing more than agreeing and reinforcing their opinion with my own. Dtoid is tight, but we don't gang up on people just for the sake of "protecting" our editors. They're big boys, they knew what they were doing when they wrote up their reviews.
P.S. I have a Mac and therefore cannot try out the demo nor have my own option to not buy the game. The issue I have is not with the crappy game itself, but with Luc's actions and ways in which he promoted and released the game, showing no care for his own creation.
Wow... the comments on that review really make me embarassed to be part of the dtoid community. I mean, I expected the usual assortment of trolls that make dtoid look bad to chime in with their inane comments while blindly patting each other on the back. Heck, I see one of them even commented here with the expected GTFO after only reading the first sentence (well done btw... gold star for that).
...
I bought the game as soon as I saw the notice on Steam, as I was looking forward to it from what I've seen and read. The price didn't hurt much either to be honest. It was nice to see an indy release that isn't relying on internet hype to "justify" upping the price of the game. :)
After playing it for a bit though I definitely agree with most of the review. The menus, story bits and scene transitions are abrupt and had no flow, and the controls were inexcusably bad for a platformer. It was a broken game that desperately needed some QA before ever being released. I didn't think it was quite as bad as Ant and Con said, as I have played worse games recently and am sure I'll play worse games soon enough, but other than that they pretty much hit the nail on the head.
After a few hours with it I did check Luc's blog to see what he had to say about the release, and was pleased to see that he was aware of the biggest issues and was working diligently on getting a patch out. That doesn't excuse the fact the game shouldn't have been released as it was in the first place, but it was nice to at least see a quick response to an obvious problem. I do plan to give the game another go with the latest patch and maybe even write my own review.
The level that well... things reached in the review comments was deplorable. Luc definitely acted defensive to the point of being immature, even going so far as to pass the buck for the problems. Not a very smart thing to do when you're trying to get people to take you serious as a game developer. That would've been pretty bad by itself, but like I said you had the dtoid trolls just dragging things down even further. Just... sad.
@Luc
Erm... You don't have a QA department? No other way to really say it dude, that's absolutely inexcusable.
There were enough people looking forward to the game that probably would've been willing to playtest it for free, or at most for a free copy at release. I mean, it didn't take much playing to find the glaring flaws.
Stuff to keep in mind for your future work.
I played it for about two hours this evening. It had it's problems but it was far from unplayable. The only problem with jumping that I experienced was that that game seemed to not want to allow me to jump immediately after landing from another jump so quick hops were really difficult to pull off. Also I wish the camera was placed farther from the characters, it seems that a unusual amount of platform jumps were leaps of faith.
i have nothing to say about it until I play the game. Even if the game is not as good as we all want it to be, Luc is a fellow member of our community so we should support him and give him constructive criticism. This whole situation went a little over board, and I will be first to say I am looking forward to playing your demo Luc.
I SUPPORT INDEPENDENT GAME DEVELOPERS.
TRIAL AND ERROR MY FRIENDS.
I'm glad I didn't act like a total asshole so no one could accidentally judge me, since internet opinions are more valuable and revered than panda sperm.
If Luc got offended, he's obviously new to this whole internet thing. I've made shit that people have ripped to shreds, but I'm not afraid of a little criticism. It can easily be interpreted as a learning experience provided you take something constructive out of the criticism.
If all you want to do is backpedal and insist that the "demo" will sway hearts and minds, or blame the game's problems on sloppy, unchecked code, you kinda get what you deserve when you tout how fantastic your game will be to the same lot of several hundred people day in and day out.
@Shipero
Use the mouse wheelie for camera :)
@Scotty G
Well if you look at EC we plan to update it regularly as its mentioned on Steam so it will become better
Sperm donor
Sorry mom... we'll do better next time.
I agree with your comments on the community. However, i entirely disagree with your comments on the reviewers - you essentially have said "no you are wrong your reviews are just wrong you stupids"... which is exactly what Luc did.
I havent played the game so im not disagreeing with your points about the game - im saying that youre acting like your opinions are facts; which means you are acting like an idiot (not saying you ARE an idiot - we all act like one sometimes).
All reviews are opinions; some have more weight (id take a dtoid official review over cblog review if i had to choose) but if you disagree, you disagree; it doesnt make either of you wrong.
Also, you just cant say 'oh but the patch fixes everything! its a good game now, honest!'. You think any other developer gets away with it? I can think of a number of recent games that lost points in reviews for requiring quick patches, and few of them had game-breaking flaws like EC apparently did. If the patched game is actually good, this review will not keep it down. If anything the publicity will help its success. In either case, these are good lessons for Luc (or anyone) to learn.
On that note, Luc's behaviour hs been pretty bad (although amusing, and somewhat understandable) BUT he can redeem himself. All he has to do is learn the lessons he needs to from this (regarding game design, managing a team, Q&A, creating hype, and dealing with criticism) and he'll be much better off for it. Heck, when i start making games or mods or whatever i get round to doing, i hope people are this critical.
I used to recommend this site to people with the community being the selling point. But theres no way anyone could see the comments in the review and think to themselves "Man I want to be a part of this". The one thing that could fix all this is what every other site that has a community has MODS. I guess Dtoid doesnt have mods because its afraid to scare away members of the community. But seriously, this proves we need them.
well I still think that the reviewers did the review so fast just to get it out there, and the game is good and not 1/10
other websites right now are all questioning why the reviewers went so crazy on it
it seems like it was personal
and also the whole community saying Fuck kind of hurt me but it showed how some people really are, you just don't change like that, so it showed who were the 2 faced ones that follow like Sheep
So I'm happy to see that Dtoid is full of also intelligent people and not just ones that spend a living being mean just to feel better about themselves
Dear Luc: I humbly recommend this article from the NY Times. Read it. Learn it. Live it. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?scp=1&sq=trolls&st=cse
Well said, Nyteshade. I agree that some D/Toid went clearly too far.
D/Toid = D/Toiders. ¬_¬
@Reaprar
I already explained that I was ASKED to put him in
big difference my little no life friend
THIS IS JUST IN, D-TOID MEMBERS ARE DOUCHEBAGS.
In other news, the sky is blue, water is wet and bullets can kill.
More info at the 11 0 clock news.
Seriously, the community in this place has been atrocious for months.