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Meet the destructoid Team >>   Bob Muir
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Bob has been hanging around ModernMethod for years and and somehow writes almost everywhere, including Japanator and Flixist. He was once lit on fire, but it's not as cool as you'd think.

I remember being in here a lot:


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What is wrong with Japanese developers?
Are achievements beneficial?
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Reexamining Twilight Princess
Thank you, Mr. Thompson, for being our nemesis
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Necros Says: We just had a bunch of terrible weather in Syracuse, which isn't surprising, considering how much living here sucks, but this was particularly bad. We had freezing rain. What this means is that, as you trek through mounds of slushy snow, you see what looks like an icy section of pavement. This is a trick crafted by a cruel God. The moment you step on this "solid" pavement, your foot quickly sinks half a foot in, giving you that wonderful feeling of dipping your foot in ice water. Of course, since you soaked your shoe and sock, you get to experience that wonderful feeling continuously, burning your skin as you limp into the closest building to wring out your sock. After a while, you just resign yourself to having cold feet the entire day. This has nothing to do with the Rantoid you're about to read, but I just had to vent.

As I was updating Dtoid's completed games list for January, I found it really interesting to note what different people view as "completing" a game. If you're unfamiliar with the list, the definition of "completion" is left up to the gamer, since we all have different standards. Some are content to beat a game and watch an ending, not even necessarily the best ending the game could have. On the other extreme are the gamers who strive to find every easter egg, unlock everything, get 100% rankings, and beat it multiple times with each character. With the exception of my darling Castlevania (of which I infamously farmed 9 of every soul and item in Dawn of Sorrow), I usually fall into the former camp, simply because my busy schedule and massive gaming stack won't allow for playing a game to death. In fact, it's - sadly - rare for me to play a game a second time unless it's a very old game.

I can remember a time when this wasn't the case, during my early gaming days. Back when I had finally gotten systems of my own (N64 and GBC), I was too young to afford many of my own games, and my parents certainly weren't eager to buy many games for me outside of my birthday and Christmas. Therefore, I played my copy of Pokemon: Blue Edition to death; I got every single collectible in Banjo-Tooie; I completely mastered Puzzle League. Of course, as I grew up and became more busy, my gaming time decreased. In addition, once I started buying more games, the time I spent on each one slowly decreased, bringing me to where I am today.



However, I think that my playing style is finally starting to change, against my will, thanks to my Xbox 360. When I bought it last fall, I was momentarily dismayed by my astounding gamerscore of zero, before shrugging it off as something those crazy OCD competitors worried about so they could brag about their e-penis. I was going to play a game to enjoy it, not so I could win in some unnecessary ranking. I attempted to get some achievements in Bomberman Live, and when I had to resort to organizing games with some fellow Dtoiders to get them, I found myself bored with what was supposed to be one of the best multiplayer games made. I didn't play games to get this bitter taste in my mouth.

And yet, when I saw dvddesign post at the start of January about his achievement scavenger hunt, I found myself interested. Maybe it was the lure of $50, but when I saw the two games listed, I thought to myself, I was planning on buying these eventually, why not buy them now and give this contest a shot? Needless to say, the achievements in King Kong were barely there, so I didn't come to any great revelations there. Then I started on Dead Rising. I had already planned out how to play the game. I would go for the best ending, then pick up the achievements I needed to grab for the contest. Then, something started happening.



As a side effect of my skittish running and indecision in games, I unlocked the "Marathon Runner" achievement for running a long distance. Similarly, my oft-used tactic of walking on top of zombie hordes whenever possible to avoid damage netted me the "Zombie Road" achievement. I glanced at some of the other achievements and realized that I was skipping much of the game's content. For instance: it was possible to make the motorcycle jump at least 33 feet in the air (the "Stunt Rider" achievement). I could keep using weapons to fight zombies, or I could freshen things up and fight them barehanded with numerous unlocked skills (the "Karate Champ" achievement). I decided to see how many of these I could get, since it was quite outside of my box.

I finally dawned on me what the achievement system actually was. Most assume it's just a bunch of bragging rights, to show how hardcore of a gamer you are, and while it works on that level, that's not where the heart of the achievement system lies. The best part of the achievement system is finding new ways to play the game. Now, many gamers are used to this phenomenon already. You don't just play the game through, you experience every niche and corner, every hidden joke, every easter egg the developers put into the game. The achievement system is basically a guide; it says, "Well, I see you were able to complete this section of the game, but did you know you can take out the helicopter overhead? What, you ran past it? That's a really challenging battle, go back and you'll thank me later!" At face value, I had to pass on playing Super Mario Galaxy through a second time with Luigi, just because of so many unplayed games. And yet, I wonder, if there had been an achievement for playing it through with Luigi, if I would have taken the time to examine the game closer and appreciate it on another level.



And once you've done every regular thing a game offers, you start making your own games. One of my favorite examples is the Hyrule Temple stage in Super Smash Bros. Melee. With such a large level, there are so many games you can come up with independent of the regular ruleset. Some of my favorite variants are three characters on handicap 1 vs. one character on handicap 9, or having races around the level as we attack each other and try to knock each other behind. Similarly, achievements like those in Dead Rising reward you for bowling a perfect 10 zombies, something I would have never thought to try without the achievement's suggestion. The system helped me get more out of the game than I would have came up with on my own.

I know that for every game that takes the time to provide some meaningful achievements that actually bring out the game's strong points, there is another game that just slaps some in because Microsoft wouldn't let the publisher release the without achievements. But still, when it's done right, achievements can be a great way to get more out of your game before you finally get tired of it and move onto something else. And if you're on a tight budget, remember to keep that in mind.

Necros is actually Syracuse University's newest caped crusader, attending classes by day and playing video games in a tight-fitting costume by night. When people can talk sense into him, he appears as a regular on Failcast.
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Legacy Comments (will be imported soon)


I agree, it does encourage you to do more with the game, which is a good thing. Crackdown for example has given me many many hours of extra fun, just doing random things....

Mind you, I always did that in GTA 3, even without achievements.
You can get than in Dead Rising...

k me go play!!!!!!!!!
I personally don't care for achievements all that much. If the game is really really incredible, then maybe I just might chase after a few achievements that I would normally just forget about after finishing the game.
Achievements give a name and a egoreward to the funky experiences we've been conducting with our games ever since we've first picked up a controller.
I agree, the best achievements are the ones that make you think outside the box or have you do crazy things all while perfectly integrated into whatever task you need to do.

Games where it just "Beat it on normal, hard, super hard" are just not that fun.
and by experiences, I meant experiments.
I'm a huge supporter of the achievement system and I'm glad this wasn't one of those cynical "oh my god they are so worthless and that also means I am so cool," rants. It's an amazing marketing tool, one I've been suckered into, and it really adds some extra value to the game, even if it's only superficial value.

I do hope to see more inventive uses of achievements though. Those Dead Rising ones are a good example. Weird and fun achievements that you can just stumble upon or that help you view the game from a new angle is such a great use of them. More can be done with the achievement system and I really hope more devs capitalize on it.
I don't know if achievements can be benefitial but they do give games some replay value (like Crackdown). I don't play games for achievements. I play games to have fun.
Honestly, Achievements have changed the way I look and play at video games. I don't like to think of myself as an achievement whore, but goddamn I love getting points.

If I'm at Blockbuster and I'm caught between two games, I'll look up their achievements to make my final decision on which game to get.

They've resurrected some older games that I would normally never play again. And if a point system can do that, how can it be bad?
My opinion is that achievement are nothing more than an epenis measuring stick. Some unlockables like the Megaman suit in dead rising are totally worth it.

I think it takes away from some of the enjoyment of the game if you play it just to try to get every one. Spend hours of your time just to get a measly 10 points that mean absolutely nothing.

Now if MS had something where we could convert those points into something we could spend on like themes, pictures, ect. Then you might have something.
@ Caffeine

Certainly there is a group of people who care about "winning" the nonexistant gamerscore contest of the 360. However, the way I see it, I'm not playing to get 10 points, but to try out a different aspect of the game, just to see if I can do it. I love getting the achievement; the points, I could care less about. And if you're going to be a point-whore, going after such a small achievement wouldn't be worth your trouble anyways.
I seem to be the only one (maybe Caf too) who isn't affected by Achievements. I go online in TF2 and other games and friends are talking about working on the sniper achievement and medic one and I just think "Why do I want to play sniper or medic? I suck as them".

You know if I get them without trying its great but im not going to sit for hours trying to get "Said achievement" just so I can brag to the phantom online community about how awesome I am for trying to do something in the game that isn't really beneficial.
People who ask what the point is in getting achievements have no business playing videogames.

What's the point in us even playing a game in the first place if we're going to have that attitude?
The only downside to achievements I see is that when it comes down to the "are games art?" question. Achievements set up an inherent reward system that, while natural (and expected) of games, aren't inherent to art. You don't read a book because you get some points -- the rewards are much more intangible.

That being said, I'm not pretentious enough to say that I don't get a huge kick out of achievements. They're fun, and competitive, and all the things games should be.

But when they take away from the artistry of the game, when that fucking little box shows up at exactly the wrong time -- when it takes me out of the experience and breaks that fourth wall -- then it's a problem.
I still remember the first week in Gears of War, some kid apparently was looking at my gamercard and said "whoa, you got 960 gamerscore on Dead Rising, you're amazing". I didn't get the Otis phone calls or 7 day survivor achievemnts(did get the 5 day though, love that mega man gun). While I was getting the achievements, I was doing it for fun, but as I check people's gamercards who have played the game, there aren't too many people who get over 500 of the 1000. Anyway, this post reminded me of that kid.
Also. Dead Rising is what got me started in achievement collecting. I fully agree with you Necros, it adds amazing replay value to games and continually makes me play games different than what I would have without achievements
Achievements are good up to the point where people stage games for the sole point of unlocking new ones. That could be easily eliminated by not having a gamerscore, just the achievements. Valve is doing that, and I love it.
One of the greatest feelings you get when gaming is completion of a great game, i remember when i was just a kid and i would play my gameboy with pokemon yellow for hours and hours, when i finally finished the game i was very very satisfied, it was a great feeling. Achievements when completed give me a smaller but still satisfying feeling, and ofcourse the harder the achievement the more satisfying it is. However i hated dead rising, like a lot, i got bored after an hour, that might have something to do with me deserting a game after i lose sight of the gole, the whole thing felt more of a chore than a game. I decided that i needed to go do my homework so i guess i can thank dead rising for the A i got in CADD II.
I agree with Reaprar's counter argument to Orcist, but Orcist is totally right about the box popping up at the wrong time. Developers need to hold that off until after an important scene, or else it totally takes you out of the game.
What I like about achievements is that, when implemented correctly, they tell a story about my time in the game and how I played through it.
@Reaprar -- that's totally legit. Achievements that change your perspective on the way it should be played do contribute. And it's kind of interesting to see what devs and designers can come up with.
People who ask what the point is in getting achievements have no business playing videogames.

What's the point in us even playing a game in the first place if we're going to have that attitude?

If we don't agree with Jimmy we can't play our video games..lol. What a silly little comment.

Achievements on paper sounds good..unfortunately the majority of the game dev just puts them as an afterthought and really nobody's too heartbroken, what with it being easy to get achievements...gotta get dem POINTS!

It amazes me how people in general get bedazzled by these intrusive grey blimbs on their screen. To the point where I can look in my blades list and peek at my friends achievement list like a thief in the night. Almost like MS is saying break into their house and ransack thru their shit.

Do people really need those virtual pats on the back to truly enjoy a game nowadays?? Do you gotta follow a pre determined snippet of gameplay to adhere to so you can enjoy the game in a different light. Before achievements this was called being creative with your game and figuring shit out for the love of it.

What would be cool is if someone put out a game with no achievements..have it out in the market for awhile then ask the Fans what achievements they would put in and implement that into the game as a download for it. That would be cool.
@ Y0jimb0

Achievement Unlocked - Missed the Point of the Article 10G
Someone mentioned GTA3. What I like about the achievements is that now if I am playing a game like GTA I can show my friends that I got all the packages and what not, I have something to show for what I have achieved. It's great. The Half-life series in the Orange Box had some great achievements too, to encourage people to do things they wouldn't normailly go. Like go thru Ravenholm with only a Grav gun. It totally makes you interact with your environment in a different way, which I would not have done before. I am sure the PC folks never thought to play it that way.
achievements are good stuff. i'll replay games that really don't need to be played again. just cuz i'm an idiot.
A well written post? IN MY CBLOGS?

HOW DARE THEE
The achievement system flies squarely in the face of my argument on why games have been becoming easier to finish in the past decade. They extend the replay value of games by offering additional challenges to complete. For this alone, they should be considered a welcome addition to the video game landscape.
Now, there are two different types of achievement: fun and not fun! Random grind tasks as added extras to increase the lifespan of a title ARE NOT BENIFICIAL! Look at the survival ones in Dead Rising as perfect examples. Whether you count them as badly designed or just tacked on, they're the sort of achievements we could and should avoid. There were so many cool achievements in that game but those survival ones sure gave the user a different way you play the game: a mind-numbingly boring way.

Then look at Just Cause. Loads of repetative ones to keep you playing but with moments of genius like base jumping off the highest point you can find.

I like achievements but I don't whore them. I pick the ones that are fun and go get them!
I agree completely and whole heartedly with you Necros. As I told you earlier today I think achievements add so much replay value to games, that will keep you coming back for more. Personally I put down a few of my 360 games, but in the summer Ill go back and play all of them in order to get some more achievements and enjoy the experience of the games again. Achievements are an Epic Win.
I have a similar completionist attitude toward Castlevania. Konami owns me.

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